Are You Writing Serious Fantasy?

[Lothiriel Silmarien]

Friendship's always important in stories, that's very true Nar.

[mystra]

thanx for the ideas! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
yes, love should be included. i have various characters with love issues. two of my characters are particularly tragic. amadeus is part of the quest group- the main characters, and he and meridia, a princess the group meets, fall in love. but meridia hears at one point that amadeus is dead and jumps from her castle tower and kills herself- but he isnt really dead. i might do a romeo and juliet and have him kill himself as well, or he might just be depressed for the rest of his life [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

ps. i also get jealous when characters get together, or become over-perfect. particularly the best guy getting the overly wonderful girl-hero/warrior, etc.

[Saxony Tarn]

Ah, LOVE -- that great fantasy...

(as all my characters nod vigorously & shout, yeah right, we've heard that one before!)

i find it's the best (and the most fun to write) if the characters have to figure out over the course of the story that they're meant for each other -- the hard way, like two north ends of a magnet having to figure out how to stick together. A lot more like Life with its misunderstandings, unrealistic expectations, less than optimal timing, the works. Something we in the real world can still relate to!

Something that runs like, "but of course (she) is hardly the woman that you would desire, Brother -- nor can any woman on (milieu omitted) ever be the woman that you desire, for you have never known what it is that you do desire! So, since you have no clear image of the woman that you want, Providence gives you instead the woman that you need -- and it should hardly surprise me that, despite all her actions in your best interest, you perceived her at first as your worst nightmare!"

Whoa, Faramir, hold that thought while i write it down, and i'll shut my mouth & go finish that fanfic...

|_|) <-- skoal!

s.t.

[mystra]

uh........... u r obviously more intellectual than me.............

[littlemanpoet]

Actually, Mystra, it's just a matter of knowing that Saxony Tarn is busy at work on a fanfic about Boromir and Faramir, getting into their heads. If you want to know more just look for ST's posts on earlier pages of this thread - or check out the fanfic section itself!

happy writing!

[mystra]

ok. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] happy writing to u too.

(i hope my fan fic is posted soon!)

[Starbreeze]

Ah, love....

I only allow my characters to form deep friendships but I don't let then become too involved with each other or they will be distracted from their tasks. Also, as someone said - I get jealous of them.

[NazgulNumber10]

jealousy and love go hand in hand. if you are to put love in a book, have some characters become jealous. It adds depth and realisim.

[ July 08, 2002: Message edited by: NazgulNumber10 ]

[littlemanpoet]

We wonders, yes we does, my preciousss, if, Ssstar, you exercsssize too much control of your characterses if you doessssn't let them get dissstracted, my preciousss, yes, we wondersesssss.

happy writing

[Lila Bramble]

Perfect relationships are never good, as are relationships that are completely in a wreck, or always fighting. That can be pretty boring. As well as the group, if they all like each other with no problems, it's unrealistic and also kinda boring. As is when they all hate each other. There can be conflicts occasionly, which is good, and maybe a conflict just between 2 people. If the whole group dislike each other, develop strong bonds like Tolkien did with Gimli and Legolas. Your story can get very interesting this way.

[Lothiriel Silmarien]

Yup, Starbreeze, that would have been me [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Glad to know I'm not the only one [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Starbreeze]

Lol LMP! Yes, well, at the moment its the only thing I can control in my life - there are a lot of changes happening - moving house, moving to college, exams instead of lessons, lots of new stuff that I can't control. I guess its kinda retaliation that I exercise complete comtrol over my characters. And if I didn't, as I have found out before - they develop a life of their own, and will wander off completely!

Lothiriel, yep, and I'm sure there are moe than just the two of us! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[littlemanpoet]

Here goes with the index of the first 11 pages, my friends. So let this go down as a true accounting of my geekiness. But what if there wasn't any of us? The world would fall around the ears of the non-geeks, don't ya think?

This is organized by topic cluster, then page, date, and time posted. I'm using military time because it's a heck of a lot easier to type - it's based on Eastern time, just like what I get when I log onto barrowdowns. Sorry if it's different for the rest of you. Examples: 0424 stands for April 24. 0512 0012 stand for 12 minutes after midnight on May 12. Sorry. I got used to it, you can to (i hope [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] )

Imitation of Tolkien
p1: 0418 0322; 0418 1836
p2: 0422 0953; 0418 1601; 0423 1054;
0424 2214
p3: 0425 2333; 0503 0402; 555 1644
p4: 0509 0203
p6: 0522 1612; 0524 0141; 0524 0147
p7: 0614 1314
p9: 0625 1808; 0625 1907
p10: 0701 1651; 0704 1308

Dreams and Archetypes
p1: 0418 0322; 0421 0022
p2: 0420 0806; 0421 1953; 0422 0212; 0424 2214
p3: 0502 2023; 0503 1644; 0504 0827
p4: 0506 1933
p5: 0511 0726
p7: 0614 1256
p10: 0702 1153; 0704 1141

Fanfiction/Rollplaying
p1: 0418 1809
p2: 0424 1021
p3: 0425 1744
p4: 0507 0838; 0507 1222; 0507 1347; 0507 2105; 0507 2156; 0507 2317; 0508 1603; 0508 1915; 0509 0123
p5: 0520 2134; 0520 2155
p6: 0521 1335; 0523 0019; 0605 0627
p7: 0608 1538; 0609 1720; 0610 1857; 0612 2220; 0613 1319; 0614 1055
p8: 0619 1809; 0619 1315
p9: 0621 1243; 0621 1841; 0622 1551; 0622 1638; 0624 2120; 0625 1232; 0625 1704; 0625 1719; 0625 1738; 0625 1808; 0625 1907; 0625 1944; 0625 2003; 0626 1223; 0626 1316; 0626 1329; 0626 1516; 0626 1608; 0627 1240
p10: 0701 1709

Serious Fantasy
p1: 0419 2045; 0420 0806
p2: 0421 1953; 0424 2214; 0425 0210
p3: 0425 0807; 0425 1859; 0425 1933; 0426 0715; 0426 1755; 0426 2339; 0427 1521; 0428 1016; 0428 1215; 0430 2132; 0501 1523; 0501
1646
p4: 0507 0943; 0507 1207; 0507 1222; 0507 1347; 0507 2156; 0509 1816
p6: 0522 0103; 0522 1628; 0523 0210; 0523 1423
p7: 0612 2220; 0614 1256
p8: 0614 1543; 0617 1744

Languages
p1: 0419 1306
p2: 0422 0311; 0422 0424; 0422 1528; 0422
1639; 0423 1039; 0423 2321; 0424 0903
p6: 0522 1736
p7: 0609 1720; 0614 1055; 0614 1302
p9: 0628 1730; 0628 2242; 0628 2254
p10: 0630 1122; 0630 1249; 0630 1500; 0701 1000; 0704 1221

Writers' Stories
p1: 0419 1907; 0420 0806; 0420 0858; 0420 1039; 0420 1156; 0420 1246; 0420 1257; 0420 1431; 0420 2354; 0421 0022
p2: 0423 0607; 0423 1054; 0424 2014; 0424 2052
p3: 0501 0212; 0502 1309; 0502 1803; 0503 0402; 0504 0706
p4: 0506 2124; 0507 2105; 0510 0640; 0510 0855
p5: 0510 2306; 0511 0726; 0511 1400; 0511 0605; 0513 1227; 0514 2005; 0516 1953; 0517 1840
p6: 0522 1612; 0522 1736; 0524 0141; 0524 0147; 0524 1300; 0525 2235; 0604 0148; 0605 1059; 0607 2354
p7: 0608 1538; 0609 1714; 0610 1354; 0613 1319; 0614 1314
p8: 0614 1436; 0614 1554; 0614 2245; 0615 0106; 0615 1153; 0615 1753; 0619 1443; 0620 1315
p9: 0625 1808; 0625 1810; 0626 1329; 0628 1523
p10: 0629 1307; 0629 1427; 0629 2020; 0630 1100; 0630 1500; 0630 1644; 0701 1709; 0701 1716; 0702 1801; 0702 1823; 0704 1808
p11: 0705 1244

Problems & Advice: writer's block, battle scenes, beginnings and endings, etc.
p1: 0419 2152; 0420 0441; 0420 1259; 0420 1431; 0420 1621; 0420 1716; 0421 0338
p2: 0421 1425; 0421 1802; 0422 0259
p3: 0502 1252
p4: 0509 1224; 0509 1250; 0509 1816
p5: 0510 2306; 0511 0711; 0511 0726; 0511 0812; 0511 1021; 0511 2255; 0512 1826; 0512 2216
p6: 0521 1342; 0521 1740; 0522 1612
p7: 0612 2220; 0613 1319; 0614 0254; 0614 1302
p8: 0614 1543; 0614 2245; 0615 0106; 0615 1153; 618 1311; 0619 1438; 0619 1501; 0620 2019; 0620 2205; 0621 0031; 0621 0117; 0621
1051
p9: 0621 1243; 0625 1232; 0625 1259; 0625 1704
p10: 0701 1301; 0701 1319; 0702 0701; 0702 1153; 0702 1330; 0702 1823; 0704 1221; 0704
1623; 0704 1808

Researching & Revising
p2: 0421 0803; 0421 1802; 0421 1953; 0422 0212
p3: 0502 2023
p4: 0511 0016
p5: 0510 1851; 0511 0050; 0511 0726; 0511 2255
p6: 0521 1342; 0521 1740; 0521 1751; 0522 1628; 0523 0210; 0524 0141; 0524 1300; 0524
1445; 0524 2022; 0525 0046; 0525 2235; 0531 2322; 0606 0832
p8: 0618 1311; 0618 1701; 0619 1438; 0620 1315; 0620 1504; 0620 1629
p9: 0625 1232; 0627 1209
p11: 0704 2105; 0704 2111

Sexual Content
p2: 0421 1425; 0421 1802; 0421 1953; 0422 0259; 042 0404; 0423 0547
p3: 0503 1644
p7: 0609 1720

Inspiration, Sources, and Music
p2: 0421 1802; 0421 1953; 0422 0259
p3: 0502 1252
p4: 0506 1153; 0506 1933; 0506 2020; 0509 1906; 0510 0640
p5: 0511 1153; 0513 1417; 0513 1536; 0513 1803; 0513 1821; 0513 2040; 0513 2046; 0513 2334; 0514 1136; 0514 1522; 0514 1715; 0520 2155; 0521 0636
p6: 0607 1549; 0607 2354
p7: 0608 2342; 0609 1032; 0609 1714; 0609 1859
p8: 0615 1216; 0619 1443
p9: 0629 0722
p10: 0630 1122; 0701 1651

Dragons/Monsters/Elves/Creatures
p2: 0422 0953; 0422 1154; 0422 1518; 0422 1601; 0422 1655; 0422 1824; 0423 0547; 0423
1039; 0423 1058; 0423 1507
p3: 0425 1838
p7: 0608 0323; 0608 1026; 0608 1806; 0608 2121; 0608 2357; 0609 1032; 0609 1619; 0609
1708; 0609 1714; 0609 1859; 0610 0752; 0610
1354; 0614 0441; 0614 1314
p9: 0628 1523; 0628 1730; 0628 1754; 0628 2001; 0628 2242
p10: 0629 1427; 0629 2020; 0629 2032; 0629 2045

Writing Career
p2: 0421 0806; 0422 1639; 0422 1655; 0422 1707; 0423 0607; 0423 1039; 0424 2214
p11: 0704 1827

FaerieWordweavers
p2: 0424 1258; 0424 1316
p4: 0507 0638; 0507 0819
p5: 0520 1012; 0520 2134
p7: 0614 1256

Themes
p4: 0510 0855
p10: 0629 2020; 0701 1000; 0701 1008; 0701 1147; 0702 1153; 0704 1432; 0704 1623; 0704 1813

Writing Style/Interlacing/Point of View
p4: 0510 0640; 0510 0855; 0510 1305; 0510 1423
p5: 0510 1851
p8: 0619 1214; 0619 1300; 0619 1423; 0619 1522; 0619 1809; 0620 1228; 0620 1315; 0620
1500; 0620 1504; 0620 1609; 0620 1611; 0620 2019; 0620 2205
p9: 0621 1243; 0626 1314; 0626 1322

Characters/Characterization/Character Deveopment/Foils/Villains
p5: 0510 1851; 0511 2255; 0512 0605; 0512 0751; 0512 1208; 0513 1227; 0513 2334; 0514 1221; 0514 1715; 0514 2005; 0516 1953; 0517 1840
p6: 0522 1612
p7: 0610 1354; 0610 2148; 0611 0744; 0611 1539; 0611 2244; 0614 0737
p9: 0626 1316; 0627 1209; 0627 1815
p10: 0702 1153; 0704 1221
p11: 0705 1126; 0705 1134

Genderbending
p5: 0514 2005; 0516 1953
p6: 0522 1612; 0531 2322; 0603 0138; 0603 1909; 0603 1928; 0604 0148; 0604 1304; 0605 1059; 0607 2354
p7: 0610 0752

Magic
p6: 0604 1304; 0605 1059; 0605 1226; 0605 1955; 0607 0025; 0607 1607; 0607 2354
p7: 0608 0133; 0610 0752; 0613 1319; 0611 2027; 0611 2109; 0611 2251; 0612 1301; 0612 2220

Aragorn as King and Healer
p6: 0605 1955; 0605 1035; 0607 0025; 0607 1549; 0607 2354
p7: 0608 2342

Places/Setting/Sense of Place in Faerie
p7: 0611 2109; 0612 1158; 0612 1301; 0612 2056; 0612 2220
p9: 0628 1523

Poetry
p8: 0614 1436; 0619 1423
p11: 0704 1849; 0704 1851; 0704 1916; 0704 1917; 0704 1922; 0704 1924; 0704 1930; 0704
1933; 0704 1936; 0704 1938; 0704 2101; 0705 1220

Religion
p11: 0705 1121; 0705 1220; 0705 1440; 0705 1619; 0705 1640; 0705 1643; 0705 1668

Okay. It's done. Ouch. I hurt. And yes, I'm crazy. I admit it. You may disagree with any of my categorizations if you like, and I tended to leave out posts that were primarily personal information. Sorry for any mistakes.

LMP
Happy Writing!

[Thinhyandoiel]

Ai yai, don't think I've posted for two pages. Sorry 'bout that. Since I got my PS2 I've been sitting infront of a TV screen rather than a computer monitor. Anyways, this whole love business is a tricky thing, now isn't it? Of course, it does depend on the style and genre of your writing. I find it's harder in my type of fantasy, the traditional type. It's hard to explain why, too. Friendship, though, that's quite easy. I find friendship, besides love, is the strongest bond there is. "It's not about anything but the men beside you." I heard a quote like that while watching Black Hawk Down, and the moment I heard that, a new truth opened up to me about the strength of friendships, or simply the strength of the bonds of men (or Elves and Dwarves [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]). I mean, let's look at the Fellowship. They were all fighting for Middle-Earth, or more precisely, the free peoples of Middle-Earth. And if you look even more deeply into each character, they each have a bond to someone that they wanted to protect, at least I'm assuming they did. Aragorn was most likely fighting not only for his kingdom or for his people, but wouldn't he be fighting for his love of Arwen also? The Hobbits fought for eachother and the Shire; Legolas and Gimli fought for eachother and for Mirkwood and the Lonely Mountain and their families. Legolas's brothers and father, his mother as a sort of revenge thing. At least, this was what I was thinking when I thought about this. In my story, Aven wouldn't even be there if it wasn't for his friendship with Deomer. Deomer himself wouldn't be there but for the strong friendship and loyalty he had with Aowae's brother. Anyways, I think I've talked long enough about this. Anyone else?

[Thinhyandoiel]

LMP...I'm speachless. That's a big index! We've really talked about all of that?! Good lord. LoL, now you'll have to add friendship and love to the index! jk, jk. I'm grateful, sincerely grateful that you did all this work for us! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] The military time...er, will take some getting used to, but no prob, thanks!!!!

[Maikadilwen]

I follow you, Thinhyandoiel. In my story, if it hadn't been for a friendship stronger than anything, one of the strongest characters wouldn't even be there. But the love in this friendship managed to bring her back from the realm of the dead. It's one of the strongest factors throughout the entire story.

[Saxony Tarn]

ah, thanks for the free plug, LMP (w/ brief appearansssse by Gollum in there, perrrhapsss?) but my tale won't be appearing on the Downs for awhile -- it's not finished yet, and i'm not submitting anything for public comsumption that hasn't been checked with that Conservation of Plot Points rule.

(and yeah, the feed from that little webcam i planted into Boromir's skull has made for a rather cerebral tale, so i've been in that intellectual mode for too long. Time to head over to Middle-Earth Mayhem and get silly!)

But what an indexing job! |_|) <-- thirsty work that must have been; this pint's for you. And another if you're still thirsty!

(now let me go print that post back there so Faramir doesn't forget his lines when the brothers have that man-to-man talk that it looks like they're headed for. Under the shade of that freshly-planted new tree, i think...)

While we're still on the topic of good relationships in fiction, how about some published examples that we've read and found to work well? It seems we've picked up a few new young writers who'd probably enjoy the reading, and writers can always use good references and examples!

i'm also figuring the rest of you to have more of an arsenal of books at home than i do, as i can't think of any enduring couples that come to mind at the moment...

No, wait a minute -- Cordelia Naismith and Aral Vorkosigan (Lois McMaster Bulold's series of tales of their son Miles & his spacefaring exploits) -- two unlikely people brought together on opposite sides of a not-quite-war, who end up forging an enduring union and revolutionizing a future world's politics. A great read, and always fun when they cross their son's erratic path in subsequent books...

s.t.

[Nar]

Littlemanpoet ... Index ... WOW! Just reading the topic names was inspirational all over again! Thank you! [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]
Think I'll go back and reread the serious fantasy pages.
Good couples: Luthien and Beren, in all the versions of their story. I really liked the first version, the tale of Tinuviel in HoME 2, despite the fairy-tale Hero Hound vs. Evil Cat (early Sauron) War that makes it less grand and sweeping. They worked so well together.
Gandalf and Ioreth had such potential, mutual interest in lore, both well seasoned by life, both constantly compelled to explain things to others, but alas, theirs was a love that could never be! [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

[ July 08, 2002: Message edited by: Nar ]

[Lothiriel Silmarien]

LMP, how did you manage to do all that!!!??

[littlemanpoet]

Lothiriel: a version of excel worked great for the categorization, and then it was just copy and paste to get it onto this. The most enjoyable part of it was actually rereading the entire thread and plunking down each one into multiple categories. The hardest part was deciding which categories to lump back together. For example, it would seem most reasonable to lump "sources" with "research and revising", but most of the mentions of sources were in the context of what inspired people, so it made the most sense to go that way.

I'm glad the index is (at least) agreeable to you all so far.

Surprising as it is to me, as I do a mental list of the fantasy I remember having read, there wasn't much by way of couples; the stuff I read seems to center on one lone hero. Friendships are rare, and in the one I remember vividly they ended up enemies (Lawhead's Albion series, which is really good, by the way).

Thanks for the stiff ones, ST. They felt real good after all that masochistic endeavor (still worth the effort, I think).

Oops on the fanfic mistake. I really don't spend much time there and assumed....I'm really looking forward to reading some of your stuff at some point, ST.....even if it's fresh off the brainmatter.

[Saxony Tarn]

well LMP let me see what i can cook up for you! (i'll stay tuned for the next installment of yours on FWW -- it's beginning to sound like a Twilight-Zony TV series along the lines of Neverwhere -- which was quite a trip)

Hmm hmm hmm... what else to throw out for hungry Wights to scavenge and ruminate over? Good question. Anybody else have any? Still looking for good couples (with a Kudos bar to Nar for that beautiful thought about Gandalf and Ioreth. Now THERE's a fanfic to write! Alas, my production schedule is already booked, so i'll let someone else spin that tale of golden-years companionship)

ah, i've got an idea -- LMP, who were those lone heroes? And what about them resonated with you? And if you could seat them all around a table in this virtual bar with their closest LOTR counterpart, who would that character be? (and which of them would be buying the drinks?)

s.t.

[Elenna]

I know JRR Tolkien didn't have a romance in Lord of the Rings, but do you find it neccassary and more exciting to insert people with love interests and perhaps couples? Or two people who develop int partners? I know that I find it much more interesting for the reader, and moref un to write.

Personally, I always try to have a romance in my stories, but I try to have it be one that you wouldn't expect. Like instead of the heroine falling in love with the hot warrior, she falls for the skinny weird looking guy who she meets on the road. It makes it more interesting if everything isn't predictable.

What about making up languages? Do you think that adds to a story, or just complicates it?

[Lila Bramble]

Elenna, you asked about languages. I think if you are a more advanced and dedicated author that making languages could be a good project. If you are just starting off languages can be frustrating and a little advanced, but you can always mention the different languages and just always have a translation. This is what I do, but it is never really realistic if everyone only speaks one language. Just a mention of the different languages or the translations will make the story seem more real.

[littlemanpoet]

Okay, picking up on a few loose threads I've noticed on this board:

in honor of Starbreeze:
How much control do you exercise over your characters? What are the benefits/boners of total control? What are the benefits/boners of no control? Is a middle ground better? How does it work for you?

in honor of nazgulnumber10 & Lothiriel Silmarien:
Poetry: do you use it in your story? How much? What kind? Formal? Free verse? Do you imitate Tolkien with yours? How do you know when your poetry enhances your story? Can you tell when it fails to enhance it? How? Care to share some of your story poetry here?

By the way, Saxony Tarn, I thought of a good couples story I read, but darned if I can remember the name of the trilogy. I read it just this past summer, too. It's set in a Victorian otherworld connected to our world by rents in the space-time continuum. There are a bunch of these rents. It's actually a pretty darn good yarn but the ending is disagreeable to my particular faith persuasion. Nevertheless, I enjoyed it. The heroine and hero don't even find each other until book two and they start out as allies and end up as teenage 'garden of eden' lovers who don't quite consummate and then must part forever. The author does manage to really get you into the feelings of these two kids. A really good story, over all. I'll dredge up the name of author and trilogy next chance I get.

As to solo characters, the first that jumps out is Conan from the R.E. Howard series. The ultimate independent, loner type. As I said, the Stephen Lawhead Albion series has a friendship gone sour, but the main character Lewis spends most of his time in his own head rather than in relationship with others, though that changes little by little until he become happily married king of all the refugees of Faerie-gone-real-bad.

Elenna, check out the index post I built on page 12 above, and look up languages for what others have said already about your very question. And Lila, I think you're right on in your answer.

I'll answer my own above questions soon.....

[Feanaro]

And if I didn't, as I have found out before - they develop a life of their own, and will wander off completely!

Hmmm.. I personally find it much easier to write a story when the characters (as well as the plots) take on a life of their own. It always turns out to be a better story in the end (at least that holds true in my case). But I guess its all a matter of personal preference. Anyway, carry on!

[Naaramare]

she falls for the skinny weird looking guy who she meets on the road.

I have issues with that constant portrayal too, however. Ever notice how the homely guys can get the pretty girls, but the homely girls can never get the pretty guys? (and I'm talking about girls who actually aren't the Standard of Beauty, not ones who just need to be shown the right way to do one's makeup and hair).

It's the one thing that I consciously did with my characters in my story. The heroine is actually an average-looking person; her own description of herself is "I can be attractive, in the right clothes and hairstyle, but I'm never pretty, and sure as hades never beautiful." She's also the one my elven hero is in love with. Go figure. ^~

But to the original question: yes, I feel impelled towards romance. The relationship between my hero and my heroine is a major plot point for the story; of course, it's sometimes a very disfunctional relationship, and my romances are no beds of roses. And I throw curve balls; some of the male/female relationship (or even applicable male/male!) are quite simply platonic. :: shrugs::

What about making up languages?

I think it can be way overdone. I tend to make up a very few words, curses, exclamations and greetings, that sort of thing. The kinds of things that actually do come out in your native tongue when you're startled, as I know from experience (three weeks in France, speaking only French, completely bilingual . . . I still cursed in English when I hurt myself). Otherwise, well, my POV character speaks French and English; she doesn't understand anything of what my elves are babbling on in their own tongue, anyway, so why write it?

How much control do you exercise over your characters?

Very little. And when I try, they become flat, stale and boring; me, forced through a male perspective, or something like that. Letting them simply percolate in my head makes for much more rounded charas, but it can be maddening for plot purposes.

The heroine and hero don't even find each other until book two and they start out as allies and end up as teenage 'garden of eden' lovers who don't quite consummate and then must part forever

Ahhhh. 'His Dark Materials'. I adored those books so very much . . .::laughs:: and I personally didn't have the faith-persuasion problem, but I can understand where it would stick. It's one of the things I've never understood; such a fuss is made of Harry Potter, and yet His Dark Materials is ignored, and it's the one that violently attacks Christian conceptions .. . :: shrugs::

[Saxony Tarn]

Woof -- good catches there, LMP; i'll answer those in one fell swoop if i can:

Control over characters -- uh huh. They all have a life of their own! In one saga it became forbidden to give "background" characters names, for once i did, they began taking on more of a role than they were intended to play. The current cast, well, they're an unruly bunch to put it politely, but that's part of the dynamics of the project!

Poetry -- hoom hoom, maybe i should just put the link here and elect you all honorary beta readers? (or perhaps Lila and Nar, who've read a few chunks of it, would care to give a review?) Since i'm borrowing Tolkien's world and standing it on its ear, it's only fitting that there should be poetry in it, but i want it to fit in with the plot and the story, not just be there to fill pages (as no doubt many thought of Tolkien's poetry when they were hacking their ways through the books)

i'd tried to keep said poetry restricted to Tolkien's and mine, until i found another poem here on the Downs that just fit too well. So i asked the author if i could borrow it, in exchange for proper credit, of course. (graciously she agreed, and it proceeded to become the main theme of one of the chapters, even bringing in its own bit character to present it. i'm still thinking of a way that i can get that character back on stage again before the story's end.)

okay, enough of my rambling, i'll get back to serving drinks. It's expected to reach 100 Fahrenheit out here on the Western Shore, so i'll be serving all COLD drinks, if nobody minds...

|_|) <-- skoal!

s.t.

[Lila Bramble]

Ack! Guys, I need help!

I was writing the third tale to my five part series, and got a little stuck for ideas. I digged through my drawer and found some outlines of the story I was writing that I had made quite a while ago, and found that I was writing my story in a completely different direction than I had intended to!

I had ideas in the story I was currently writing that came to me in my head, but the explanation, order, and reasons for the events (which are almost the same in both versions) were completely different!

Should I continue just writing the version I have now, or make the second version and continue writing both, and see what ending product makes more sense and is the better story? (Saxony, I know you could help here, as well as you, LMP!)

[Lothiriel Silmarien]

Ever notice how the homely guys can get the pretty girls, but the homely girls can never get the pretty guys? (and I'm talking about girls who actually aren't the Standard of Beauty, not ones who just need to be shown the right way to do one's makeup and hair).

Yeah, WHY is that!?

Lila, I wish I could help you, but I don't think my advice would be that helpful [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] Good luck though!

[Saxony Tarn]

Addressing the question of Beauty vs. the Beast, well, i can proudly say that i have what is probably the fairest half-Orc in the land in my tale, and i have yet to describe her human teammate as "pretty". Austere, severe, and all-business demeanor, perhaps -- well okay, i take that back. Pippin's described her as "the pretty lady" (in relation to the half-Orc's "not-so-pretty lady") -- and Merry's disagreed with him. Hey, i guess it all depends on what you consider attractive. After all, as they do agree, blokes like Ugluk and Shagrat would probably be dueling over Skheel if they had the opportunity.

...uh oh, it's only 87 degrees out there, nowhere near the forecast delirium-inducing extreme heat yet, so why do i hear Grace Jones's voice in my head saying, "no, but seriously, Boromir, you're a wonderful man, but your skin's too thin and your jaw is shaped all wrong; it would never work out..." Guess i'll be writing "Skheel, Queen of the Orcs" after all...

s.t.

[littlemanpoet]

That trilogy I mentioned above was "His Dark Materials" by Philip Pullman. The first volume is called "The Golden Compass", followed by "The Subtle Knife", then "The Amber Spyglass". Let me warn those of you who call yourself Christians, Pullman sets up a paper Tiger version of Christianity in the book and proceeds to show how ridiculous it is. This is the big flaw in his otherwise remarkable piece of fantasy. I wouldn't mind if he had actually done an adequate job of showing how difficult xianity is to believe as compared to other faiths, but that's not his tack. In any case, I still think it was a great read for depth of character, intensity of wonder, scope of vision, sheer plot (Pullman is a good story teller), and 'how to write good fantasy'. He even pulled off the Tolienesque eucatastrophe via ultimate sacrifice by some less than righteous individuals who are deeply tied to the herione (now there's some parallel to Tolkien, eh? - think Gollum/Frodo). Good stuff, but could be better. Still worth the read.

[Naaramare]

:: smiles gently:: Some of us have more contact with the real-life "paper tiger" of Christianity than we'd like.

[Saxony Tarn]

:: setting the breakables behind the bar, just in case! ::

Noted, and will consider it when looking for a new read. While we're on the subject of religion, and in a heroic attempt to keep the discussion from becoming too fiery a debate, there is obviously a niche market for religious-segment-targeted fiction (i don't have to mention the 'Left Behind' series here, especially since i am not among its readership, but it is a salient example of a book that found its reader market and is dominating it) i can also think of a few books i've read that target demographics that other Wights in our little section of the graveyard might be more in tune with (and i will not take any names in vain, i trust you all know who you are)

We know that Tolkien and his good buddy Lewis both had deeply-held beliefs, which one way or another found expression in their writing. Although i wouldn't be able to say for certain w/o reading Pullman's books, it sounds to me like he's either not done as good of a job handling his world as he could have or he's got a proverbial axe to grind.

Which brings me to this, especially since Starbreeze mentioned that she leaves that aspect out so as not to offend readers, how can we make characters have spiritual beliefs that seem natural to them -- and, if they're beliefs that just happen to have real-world parallels, how can we do it without sounding either preachy or heretical ourselves?

it's a real trick, i know!

s.t.

[littlemanpoet]

Oop. Naaramare, I read your post after I'd written mine. Good catch there. And yeah, Pullman just rips into xianity while Rowling just lets it be. All the xians are up in arms only because Potter's popular and Dark Materials isn't. Wonder why not?

As to why pretty girls fall for homely guys but not vice versa, I've heard tell from the experts that - in general - sexual attraction has to do with the visual for men and with characteristics for women. Obviously, being a good looking guy is no fault, nor are good character traits in women. Nevertheless, it's said that guys just need an excuse and a place whereas ladies need a reason and the right circumstances to consummate. [all the women in the audience roll their eyes at the male gender in general] Yep, you're stuck with us. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

In one saga it became forbidden to give "background" characters names, for once i did, they began taking on more of a role than they were intended to play.

[img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

I wanna read your stuff, ST!

Lila Bramble On divergent plots: Nar would say (I think) to write them both and see which one feels more right. My own way would be to FIRST write the current one that's diverging from your original plans, because the divergent one is coming out of the deep creative you, the intuitive genius part of you whereas the former was probably coming more out of the logical, analytical, less imaginative planner side of you.

[lmp takes a bow to all the fair female half-orcs, thinking up some lines of verse as he does so and almost spouts them then thinks better of it because he realllly would rather not get -ahem- involved with any half-species in certain unmentionable ways, as they do not quite fit his visual notions of -you know- beauty (yeah right).] [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

[Naaramare]

For myself, I have characters of all religious denominations--and prejudices. And while I obviously sympathise with my own sect more than with, say, Roman Catholics, I make all my characters equally fallible.

This means that the characters who share my faith can be just as prejudiced and bigoted as the ones who's belief runs counter to mine, according to their own character. My main Supporting Male, for example, would be equally accepting of everyone elses beliefs, whether he were Muslim or Protestant (as it so happens, he's Catholic). And my main Supporting Female would be just a prejudiced and difficult to make see other's points of view no matter her denomination (she's an athiest).

I loathe most "religious" fiction. Of any religious denomination (don't even get me started on Circle of Three, ugh ugh ugh!). The only piece of fiction based around my own religion I've ever enjoyed was "Murder at Witches' Bluff" by Silver RavenWolf, and that was because of one simple thing.

The line between simple belief of your characters and being preachy is, I think, shown by how much you seem to push in your readers face that THEY should be acting this or that way. MaWB left open to interpretation much; having flipped through the first book of the Left Behind series and found the plain craft of the writing seriously lacking, it left nothing open to interpretation.

As my bible-counsellor friend said: "You know there's something wrong with a book when the only interesting character is the Anti-Christ."

In the end, I think it matters most if your characters are sympathetic, or whether they just seem to be tools for the author to show the world The Right Way to Be and Live.

<edit>

because Potter's popular and Dark Materials isn't. Wonder why not?

::laughs:: Because the issues and moral stuff raised in Harry Potter is slipped in like sugar-coated medication, whereas HDM dumps them in your lap and says "Look! issues! Think about them! Oh yes, and while we're at it, we're going to bombard you with complex moral issues, sexuality and multiple worlds, storylines and prophecies!"

^~ I recommend HP to everyone I know who reads, simply because whether you choose to think about the issues it can raise or not, it's still a good story. I don't recommend HDM to many, because I honestly don't think they can handle it. </edit>

[ July 10, 2002: Message edited by: Naaramare ]

[Saxony Tarn]

Woof! Good stuff. Tasty stuff. High-capsacin-packed "religious experience chili-sauce" stuff. i like it.

LMP AND Naaramare, if you're both interested i'll send you the link to where i've got Ch. 0 - 8 of my fanfic up on AOL space for my test readers, and i'll make you both this bet, that LMP will be able to identify the odd bit of Judeo-Christian-influenced symbolism, and Naaramare will probably have an equally lengthy list of classical pagan allusions by the time the saga is done (why, because i'm an equal opportunity exploiter!)

BTW LMP, your assessment of men vs. women is very much right on the nailhead, no matter how sometimes it may seem cliche'd. (which may or may not be as true in the metaphorical continuum as it is in the physical. As within, so without?)

and i've only got one observation on why Potter catches all of HDM's rightful share of flack -- Potter's not just popular, it's popular with -- gasp, shudder -- CHILDREN. Young, impressionable CHILDREN... who are anything BUT fools.

s.t.

(meditating on that. om........)

[Naaramare]

Definitely interested. ^^ I was the despair of my French Canadian grade ten teacher by identifying the classical paganism in LotR for her . . . ::winks:: It's fun. Besides, I'd love to read the story of one of our most interesting posters.

My own's not up anywhere, but available on (rare) request.

And I'd say your assessment is dead on. I'd argue that a young child wouldn't even be able to necessarily follow HDM's storyline, let alone the more complex themes.

Equal opportunity exploitation . . .nothin' wrong with that . . . ::grins::

[Lila Bramble]

Guys, read Saxon'y story! It is deffinently worth it, it's really awesome! And thanks for your advice, LMP! You gusy are lots 'o help!

[Lila Bramble]

Guys, read Saxon'y story! It is deffinently worth it, it's really awesome! And thanks for your advice, LMP! You gusy are lots 'o help!

On other thoughts: I have a question. Would mentioning 'female problems' be okay in a seriosu fantasy work?

[Nar]

Lila, I have to agree with Littlemanpoet, write the new version, it's probably coming out of a deeper place. I do favor keeping parallel versions of a story if you can still see 'em. I have a symbolic, parody, and fantasy version of the story I'm working on now, but the fantasy version is the main one, it's like a vacuum cleaner hoovering up every story I've worked on for the past year.

Saxony Tarn, Poetry-- story kicks off with a great, lovely, wicked ballad. Looking forward to more poetry as I read the next chapters.

Women and men: Sad but true. I think, though that just as people become more compelling as you get to know them, you can write a physically plain or undefined character so that they become attractive. One of my heroines calls herself a 'shapeless crone' -- she's given to extreme pronouncements. She's actually a fairly hale 63 year old with a fierce personality, which is lucky, considering what she'll have to go through to rescue her lover. I think she's the most attractive character in the story. Of course, I'm a woman, so I would, wouldn't I?

Whoa! That Left Behind series is scary-- I looked at a gruesome murder in a middle book and gave up the idea of reading it. I loved your friend's summation of the series, Naaramare.
Phillip Pullman's series is wonderful, very well written. As it's set in an alternate world, I cling to the hope that it's an alternate God he's tackling, but I know Pullman did say it was intended to be a Narnia for athiests. On the other hand, I can think of a few authors who set out to write simple stories to instill morality into youth and ended up with something far more than they intended. The fact is, the best material in Pullman is the less didactic material where he just follows the story and characters and invents like wild. There's nothing noticably didactic about the Armored Bears. Whatever he thought he was taking aim at, he hit abuse of authority far more accurately than God.

Religion: I'm more interested in the classic mistakes and strengths of each and all religions than pitting one against the other. The key to a reasonable religious discussion is remaining alive to the difference between the wish to share and the will to power over others. There are always some who don't understand that distinction. What I find ironic is when those who have the most hard-driving will to power over others rant about the dangers of power-lust! That's what's wonderful about Tolkien, he truly did not lust for power over others. That does wonders for his story.

I see a lot of classic mistakes, that occur almost identically across very different religions-- there are similar traps that new believers fall into, similar traps that fervent believers fall into, they can all recognize the phenomenon in rival religions but it's a rare insight to recognize the same trap in your own faith. Of course, as religions are profoundly different, the heart of each religion does not compare, but the mistakes, particularly the new-faith mistakes and the political/organizational-faith mistakes can be compared. I guess I'm saying that all true faiths are distinct, but of the false faiths, there are only a few types. (I'm using 'true' in the sense of 'true to a faith's own aspirations.)

I've got a story about a character who rattles back and forth opportunistically between christian and pagan, viewing the faiths as competing patrons of luck, making the same mistake in each, thinking the right religion will bring control of her fate, which she's desperate to change. Sam's comment about Lorien sums her up:

It strikes me that folk takes their peril with them into Lorien, and finds it there because they've brought it.

[ July 10, 2002: Message edited by: Nar ]