Elrond

[Fingolfin II]

I was wondering why wasn't Elrond held as High King of the Noldor? He's a descendant of Fingolfin, and Thingol for that matter. So why isn't he acknowledged as High King of the Noldor and Teleri after Gil-galad dies? Two of his direct ancestors (i.e. NOT uncles, or grand-uncles) have been held as High Kings of the Noldor- Fingolfin and Turgon and Thingol has been HK of the Teleri. All Elrond is acknowledged as is Lord of Imladris, which seems a bit unfair.

I suppose you could argue that Olwe, Thingol's brother, is now rightfully High King of the Teleri, but what I don't understand is why Elrond isn't High King of the Noldor, because Gil-galad was still High Kind even though Finarfin rules 'the remnant of the Noldor in Aman'. A thought that just occurred to me is that Earendil isn't dead, so he'd probably be held as High King, though neither of them have been acknowledged. I suppose the latter explanation is the solution to the problem, meaning I've wasted all your time, but- oh well.

[NightKnight]

I'd say it's probably because he's not entirely elvish. He hasn't got much noldorin blood, only like 25%. That's probably not enough.

[Firefoot]

I read somewhere that Elrond could have been High-King but he chose not to be. Something about the Third Age being the time when the Elves in ME was almost over, I think. I couldn't tell you if this is canon or not as I have no idea where I read it.

[Finwe]

It was probably canon since it makes sense. Elrond knew that the time of the Elves was passing, his people were leaving those shores. If he chose to become King, he would be King of the Noldor only in name. He wouldn't have a people to rule. By the end of the Last Alliance, most of the Noldor in Middle-earth either perished or sailed West. The ones who were left generally were in Imladris, already under the rule of Elrond.

Also, Elrond was descended from Finwë through the maternal line. Idril, Elrond's grandmother, was the daughter of Turgon, the grandson of Finwë. Titles such as Kingship can't be passed through the female line (generally) unless a specific Law of Succession exists, enabling females to rule (ex. in Numenor). Now if the Noldor were truly desperate to have a High King, Elrond could have assumed the throne, but no one was desperate, since there were very few Noldor left.

[Nirvana II]

It is told that the grief Elrond experienced overwhelmed him and so he did not wish to become the High King. And the part that he is only 25% Noldor is correct also.

[Earendilyon]

Worthy contribution, BW

In the Third Age, there were actually not many Elves left in Middle-earth, and just one Kingdom, which was Sindarin, not Noldorin (actually, it was an Avari Kingdom with a Sindarin ruling family, IIRC). The other realms were just rather small groups of Elves living together around the Grey Havens, Rivendell and Lothlorien.
For having a High King, there has to be other Kings amongst whom he is the foremost. As there were no Kings left after Gil-Galad's death (except for Thranduil) there was no need for a High King.

[willkill4food]

I always just figured that the reason that Elrond wasnt High King was because his Noldorien blood is from Idril, daughter of Turgon, and all of the other High Kings were the sons of male Noldorien Kings, but maybe it is just coincidence...but my question is whether Earendil was High King of Noldor...because it doesnt mention him being so in the Sil, just that he was lord of the remants of the people of Gondolin, Doriath and the rest of the havens...anyone know?

-willkill

[lore_master]

If their had to be a Noldorin ruler wouldn't it be Galadriel? she after all, was more closely related to Finwe, the first high king.

[the phantom]

He hasn't got much noldorin blood, only like 25%

That doesn't really matter. Fingolfin himself was only half Noldorin. If you have the title then you have the title no matter what your blood mixture is.

If he chose to become King, he would be King of the Noldor only in name. He wouldn't have a people to rule. By the end of the Last Alliance, most of the Noldor in Middle-earth either perished or sailed West. The ones who were left generally were in Imladris, already under the rule of Elrond.

Well said, Finwe.

A thought that just occurred to me is that Earendil isn't dead, so he'd probably be held as High King

Well, if we are going to count elves who aren't even in Middle Earth then who knows who the high king of the Noldor is because remember, elves don't "die" the way we do. One of the other high kings (if not all) had probably left Mandos and was walking around Valinor during the third age.

If their had to be a Noldorin ruler wouldn't it be Galadriel? she after all, was more closely related to Finwe,

Nope, that doesn't matter. For example, Galadriel was more closely related to Finwe than Gil was, but Gil was definitely the high king wasn't he? The kingship stays in Fingolfin's house unless the heir waives his claim.

[lore_master]

I was talking about Galadriel versus Elrond
not Gilgalad.

[Legolas]

Galadriel was not a possibility; she was not in the line to be King. No one in her father's household had ever held the title.

Elrond didn't become King because their was no reason to have a King; there were not enough Noldorin elves left in Middle-earth at the time.

[Finwe]

Read my previous post.


Titles like that of "High King" or "King" as a matter of fact, could not be passed down through the female line or through the line of a younger son, unless all other candidates were removed, and that was only if they were male. Elrond was descended from Finwë through the female line, so he didn't really count. Galadriel definitely couldn't take up the title because she was female and because she was of the house of Finarfin, the youngest House. Even if she had been male, she still wouldn't have been able to take up the throne, because Elrond was alive (Elrond being a descendant of Fingolfin's House). Since Elrond chose not to become High King, there simply wasn't one.


BTW, I know some people might think "sexism!" but that's just the way things were done. Females did not have the right to the throne and could not pass it on to their children, unless under extenuating circumstances or unless a specific provision existed in the extant Laws of Succession for that people, like in Numenor.

[Findegil]

Elrond was also of a female line since his only conection to Finwe was by his grandmother Idril, daughter of Turgon. So neither of them was able to claim the Kingship of the Noldor.

If we follow the last ideas of Tolkien in that matter than Gil-galad was the last heir of Finwe in Middle-earth with a mal line of decent: Finwe - Finarfin - Angrod - Orordreth - Gil-galad

Respectfully
Findegil

[the phantom]

I was talking about Galadriel versus Elrond not Gilgalad.

I am aware of that. Did you not understand my comparison of the two situations? You stated "she after all, was more closely related to Finwe" and I replied that Galadriel was also closer to Finwe than Gil-galad (and if it didn't matter in that case, it shouldn't in Elrond's case).

[Angry Brandybuck]

I have always believed that elves would not care much about gender if at all and both sexes were more or less considered equal.

Has this any grounding or is it just me being a silly old idealist?

[Finwe]

You might be being a bit of an idealist there...


Middle-earth was a dangerous place. The Elven-kings rarely had times of peace (except for in the time of Gil-galad, who was like the Queen Victoria of the Elves). As it were, the mightiest of the Elven kings, like Fingolfin and Fingon, fell in battle. If they could barely hold an office, how would a woman be able to hold the office? There were a few exceptions (i.e. Galadriel and Aredhel) but generally, I believe that Elven women were weaker than the men. Women just couldn't do it. At best, they would have been able to command the defense of a kingdom, but even that was pushing it. The only cases of a woman defending a kingdom, or playing an integral role in the defenes of a kingdom, were of Melian and Galadriel. Melian was a Maia and Galadriel was one of the greatest of the Elves, so they weren't exactly the average. They were most definitely the exceptions. Even then, they still only played a part in the defense of their respective kingdoms. They didn't go out and command forces. They left the dirty work to their husbands.

Heck, I'm a woman myself, and I acknowledge the fact that sometimes it takes a man to complete the job.

[Nirvana II]

but only sometimes Finwe...........i think when it comes to slaying orcs....men get as mindless AS the orcs......thats sexist against my own gender..............

[the phantom]

I have always believed that elves would not care much about gender if at all and both sexes were more or less considered equal.

Here's something that Tolkien wrote that has to do with male and female elves (HoME X, Part 3, II, Laws and Customs...)-

...the neri and nissi (that is, the men and women) of the Eldar are equal- unless it be in this (as they themselves say) that for the nissi the making of things new is for the most part shown in the forming of their children, so that invention and change is otherwise mostly brought about by the neri. There are, however, no matters which among the Eldar only a ner can think or do, or others with which only a nis is concerned. There are indeed some differences between the natural inclinations of neri and nissi, and other differences that have been established by custom (varying in place and in time, and in the several races of the Eldar). For instance, the arts of healing, and all that touches on the care of the body, are among all the Eldar most practised by the nissi; whereas it was the elven-men who bore arms at need. And the Eldar deemed that the dealing of death, even when lawful or under necessity, diminished the power of healing, and that the virtue of the nissi in this matter was due rather to their abstaining from hunting or war than to any special power that went with their womanhood. Indeed in dire straits or desperate defence, the nissi fought valiantly, and there was less difference in strength and speed between elven-men and elven-women that had not borne child than is seen among mortals. On the other hand many elven-men were great healers and skilled in the lore of living bodies, though such men abstained from hunting, and went not to war until the last need.

As for other matters, we may speak of the customs of the Noldor (of whom most is known in Middle-Earth). Among the Noldor it may be seen that the making of bread is done mostly by women; and the making of the lembas is by ancient law reserved to them. Yet the cooking and preparing of other food is generally a task and pleasure of men. The nissi are more often skilled in the tending of fields and gardens, in playing upon instruments of music, and in the spinning, weaving, fashioning, and adornment of all threads and cloths; and in matters of lore they love most the histories of the Eldar and of the houses of the Noldor; and all matters of kinship and descent are held by them in memory. But the neri are more skilled as smiths and wrights, as carvers of wood and stone, and as jewellers. It is they for the most part who compose music and make the instruments, or devise new ones; they are the chief poets and students of languages and inventors of words. Many of them delight in forestry and in the lore of the wild, seeking the friendship of all things that grow or live there in freedom. But all these things, and other matters of labour and play, or of deeper knowledge concerning being and the life of the World, may at different times be pursued by any among the Noldor, be they neri or nissi.

One thing I thought was particularly interesting was that an elf could not be both a great warrior and healer (unless during different stages of his life). Elrond fits this description quite well. Many call him a wuss because he doesn't go out on the battlefield and fight, but the text leads me to believe that he would lose his mastery of healing if he did. He could fight, he just chose not to.

but generally, I believe that Elven women were weaker than the men.

Yes, the text agrees with this but also says that the difference was less obvious than it was with mortals (until an Elf woman gave birth). But since a difference does exist, it makes sense that the men are the ones fighting most of the time. And since Elven Kings often lead their forces into battle and participate in the fight a woman couldn't really be an Elven King (or at least she wouldn't last as long as a male would, as Finwe pointed out), especially a woman who had given birth like Galadriel.

They didn't go out and command forces. They left the dirty work to their husbands.

And we're happy to do it as long as our women smile and wink at us occasionally . I guess we're kind of stupid that way (or desperate).

[Finwe]

Oh I'm sure that the husbands got more than the occasional wink...

It makes a great deal of sense that one could not be a hunter and a healer at the same time. The duty of a hunter or a warrior is to slay, but the duty of a healer is to heal, and keep alive. Reconciling duties like that would probably tear one apart.

What you said about Elrond got me to thinking... what if the hunter/healer concept is actually a description of the "phases" that an Elf goes through? When they're relatively young, Elves could have the mindset of hunters. They could be more ready for battle, leading armies, etc. After they grow older, have children, become "wiser," the healer part of them could come out more, and they would give up their hunting identity, and become a healer. After all, Galadriel was a tomboy in her youth, and she later became one of the Wise. Elrond was a warrior in his youth, and he became one of the greatest Elves.

[Althern]

Reconciling duties like that would probably tear one apart.

Why? Aragorn managed. And the "hands of a king" line implies that all of the kings managed to combine both duties.

[Finwe]

Yes, but Aragorn wasn't an Elf. We're talking about Elves.

[Althern]

Ok, then the obvious elven counterexample is Glorfindel. He was unable to heal Frodo's wound in the wild before the ford, implying that he had skill as a healer (in fact, Aragorn deferred to him), and yet he retained sufficient might and majesty to see off some Black Riders. There is little evidence to support that he felt torn apart. Or Elrond for that matter.

[the phantom]

Glorfindel did not heal Frodo's wound. As I recall, he merely made his ride to wraith world more comfortable.

There is little evidence to support that he felt torn apart

Remember my HoME quote-

And the Eldar deemed that the dealing of death, even when lawful or under necessity, diminished the power of healing

Tolkien stated that the Elves think that the two (killing and healing) are not completely reconcilable, so yes there is evidence.

Now this doesn't mean that a warrior can't heal, it just means that a warrior can't heal as well as he could if he were to abstain from killing.

Are you winking at me, Finwe?

[Finwe]

Possibly...

phantom is right. Glorfindel never healed Frodo. The closest that he ever came to healing Frodo was merely repeating what Aragorn knew, that Frodo needed to get to Elrond quickly, before the wraiths managed to get to him. Glorfindel was just there to give the Ringbearer more protection, not healing.

Also, Elrond couldn't have known that Frodo had been stabbed by a Morgul blade, before he got to Rivendell. All that they knew was that there was a damn good chance that the Hobbits were heading to Rivendell from that direction. Naturally, the strongest seneschal would be sent there, and the strongest was Glorfindel. What was needed was strength and prowess of arms to keep Frodo from the Ringwraiths' clutches, not the healing arts.

[Althern]

To reiterate, I said that Glorfindel said something like "this wound is beyond my skill to heal". From this I inferred that Glorfindel had the skill of healing. A talent which he possessed at the same time as possessing might of arms; which was my point.

I never said anything about Glorfindel actually healing Frodo or not, because it is irrelevant to prove that he possesses the skill.

Thanks for the HoME quote phantom; this is relevant, and is sufficient to modify my position. Pity I missed it the first time. Still, a miss is better than a misinterpretation, hey?

[Arvedui24]

Havent posted in an age of middle-earth, well it feels like it. So appreciate if this falls short of the mark.

I believe that although elven society was not as egalitarian as we would like to believe that it certainly was far more enlightened than that of men(exception being Numenor, for a time) and in addition that healing and combat were not exclusive to the sexes. Elrond it is viewed was the most capable of healing in the whole of ME and Galadriel in my opinion was considerably more influencial and important(even to say powerful) that her husband Celeborn. Afterall, she did possess Nenya, was a member of the White Council and was pivotol in the downfall of Dol Guldur.

Back to the main point, i also believe that it would have been pointless for Elrond to lay claim to the kingship of the Noldor for a number of reasons which i think have been already mentioned. He was only part Noldorian, only part Elven, and was already one of the great elven leaders in ME. Also, little remained of the Noldor in ME and to enforce kingship over such few a number seems nonsensical. Especially when the majority of your kin have returned to their homeland, a king in exile for no need it would be like.
Also, in claiming the High Elven Kingship of the Noldor would Elrond in fact be taking responsibilty for the Rebellion even tho he didnt take part in it himself or would such a thing have been nearly laid to rest with the death of the sons of Feanor. Would have he been held accountbale, Galadriel in this seems to have far greater accountability. Just a thought. Do u think on this related note that Elrond would claim the title when he returned to Tol Eressea/Valinor??

Hope this in any way makes sense

[NightKnight]

Do u think on this related note that Elrond would claim the title when he returned to Tol Eressea/Valinor??

No, that would be pretty weird, considering that Finarfin was still alive and king of the noldor of Valinor.