Pippin Poking

[Shy Hobbit]

"Get up!"<P>Was I the only one extremely disappointed in Gandalf's reaction when Pippin swears service to Denethor? This probably bothers me the most among the various changes in the film. I just felt it was extremely out of character, totally spoiled the moment for me

[Orual]

I agree. It is such a touching moment, such a selfless gesture on Pippin's part, it seemed needlessly callous of Gandalf to ruin it. It was out-of-character, and, on a more basic level, just mean. Pippin really meant it, and it was his way of reconciling himself with the fact that Boromir died to save him.

[TealDude4]

I kind of like Gandy the Grey better than Gandy the White because Gandy the White seems to have a 'holier than thou' attitude at times. I mean, I know he is one of the greatest of the Maiar, but please.

[Essex]

This is the key point of the book where we begin to see<P>1/ Pippin growing up<BR>2/ Gandalf respecting Pippin for who he is, and not a fool of a took<P>So yes, it did hurt a bit watching this, but Jackson has changed Denethor's character somewhat, so he has somewhat changed Gandalf's opinion towards him, thus he is not too happy about Pippin pledging his allegiance.

[Sapphire_Flame]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I kind of like Gandy the Grey better than Gandy the White<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Gandy the White is crankier. Gimli said that himself.<P>But, WAAA! Gandalf is such a butt! I really do hate him now, he's always so mean to Pippin! Here Pip does this really selfless thing, showing his growing maturity, and all Gandalf can do is poke him with his staff! *mutter, fume* Stupid Gandalf....<P>Abedithon le,<P>~*~Aranel~*~

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

You'll regret saying "Stupid Gandalf" one day.... <P>But I do agree. I had tears in my eye when Pippin offered his services to Gondor. Just look at Billy Boyd's face, it is painted with emotion. And Gandalf completely ruins it. A ridiculous move by the scriptwriter.

[Ainaserkewen]

You know what...I kind of like the ironic twist Gandalf that the movies have made. Yes, he's a jerk at times, and very harsh, but I find that more believable than someone who would laugh at everything(exageration! Don't kill me) I like the no nonsense ideas Ian protrais.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> 'holier than thou' <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, that's how I'd put it...but that's kind of a good thing in a leader, plus it's true.<P>Defending his whole poking pippin thing, the angle was that he was frustrated and thought pippin was being stupid. Plus, kicking Denethor's butt was awsome...

[Shy Hobbit]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> but Jackson has changed Denethor's character somewhat, so he has somewhat changed Gandalf's opinion towards him, thus he is not too happy about Pippin pledging his allegiance. <BR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>In the book, he indeed thought it was foolish, but "generous deed should not be checked by cold counsel" were his words to Pippin in the book as to why he did <B>not</B> hinder it.<p>[ 6:23 PM December 19, 2003: Message edited by: Shy Hobbit ]

[Luthien_ Tinuviel]

I was surprised and a little disappointed, too. It seems almost that "Book Gandalf" is wiser and more farseeing than "Movie Gandalf" in some respects. I don't know whether this is just an excuse I'm creating to try to reconcile myself with this point, but I think that Gandalf's actions against Pippin's pledging allegiance could be justified thus: They made Denethor less noble in the movie, less despairing for all the right reasons interpreted in all the wrong ways, and instead just a sort of callous jerk, favortist father, self-absorbed prig and all-around hopeless pessimist who himself has a "holier than thou" complex (even in the book he does). Because of this, I figure that perhaps (in the movie version) Gandalf might have seen that Denethor would give bad orders and that having Pippin serve him would not be a favorable position, also that Pippin's humbling himself by kneeling before Denethor would stoke Denethor's ego (which is never a very good thing, seeing as it's far too large already). In the end, though, it turns out to be for the best that Pippin did what he did, so I don't know why this part had to added to the movie at all.

[Jjudvven]

Yeah I was getting ready for the moment from the books, and was VERY dissapointed when Gandalf smacked him. That was not well done at all. I wish they could have done that right at least.

[doug*platypus]

I really hated the Pippin-poke when I first saw it. Although I'm sure Ian McKellen had been looking forward to poking Pippin, ever since that fool of a Took killed him in Moria, it was a terrible thing to do.<P>But I <B>don't</B> think that it was a bad decision by the filmmakers. Gandalf's opinion does not prevent any of us from feeling warmth at Pippin's noble gesture. In fact, it probably shows us better that <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Generous deed should not be checked by cold counsel. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>We end up thinking "Oi! Gandalf! No!" and thus learn the lesson a little better ourselves. We also feel for Pippin and the fact that he has been publicly rebuked by his superior. A lesson for all prospective parents or employers there.<P>It is a real shame that Pippin's loyalty turned out to be misplaced, and that Gandalf although rude was proved correct. But it is a comfort to think that Faramir's life was saved by Pippin being in the right place at the right time. We see Gandalf as not being completely beyond reproach, which is important I think. True, he's one of the good guys, but we should still judge him as imperfect on the way that he treated Pippin and Denethor. <P>Watching documentaries on Peter Jackson, I have come to appreciate the amount of thought behind each of the filmmaking decisions, and the high degree of knowledge of the text. Although frequently misguided, I think that there are actually times when they got it right. And those are the times when I can understand a minor deviation from the book if it still gets the point across.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

So, had it been as it was in the book, the outcome would have been worse?

[Silmiel of Imladris]

I could take or leave this part but I think it shows that Gandalf was trying to protect Pippen. Although I really have to admit that when Gandalf hit Denethor in the face it was pretty funny, well at least I thought it was.

[Vardadurwen]

The way I see it, Gandalf's reaction to Pippin's act of allegiance was just a way to get some laughs out of the audience - at least, everyone in the theatre I was at laughed...except for me.<P> I didn't appreciate it. As I recall from the books (sorry, haven't read them for a year now), Gandalf was at least slightly impressed with Pippin's decision. Oh well.

[Theron Bugtussle]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR><I>Doug P:</I>But I don't think that it was a bad decision by the filmmakers. Gandalf's opinion does not prevent any of us from feeling warmth at Pippin's noble gesture.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>As a matter of fact, I think it will keep ALL the non-book readers from seeing Pippin's gesture as one of nobility and responsibility. I am surprised the scriptwriters didn't add Gandalf shouting, <I>"Pippin, you a**!"</I><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> In fact, it probably shows us better that "Generous deed should not be checked by cold counsel." We end up thinking "Oi! Gandalf! No!" and thus learn the lesson a little better ourselves.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I think the original model of the lesson (Tolkien's text) is far superior to the movie model. <P>Not to be personal in the least with my argument, but if Jackson followed your proposed model, Doug, he could have shown Galadriel, Gandalf, or Aragorn taking the One Ring for themselves. Then we would have seen a lesson better than them modeling self-restraint!<P>It was, in my opinion, a bad decision by the filmmaker/scriptwriters done intentionally to convey an entirely different attitude. Not out of professional respect as how to best represent Tolkien to today's moviegoing audience. Rather how Jackson has a 'better idea.'