**RotK - Mount Doom**

[Estelyn Telcontar]

What's your opinion on the scenes at Mount Doom?

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Very good and dramatic. Completely overshadowed the events at the Black Gate (I realise that they should have but perhaps not this much). Gollum was terrifying. Frodo's finger was well done. Frodo hanging off the edge of the cliff was exagerrated but still alright.<P>Frodo's sprint to the Crack of Doom was perhaps a bit much considering he couldn't move a muscle only seconds earlier.<P>Very moving after the destruction of the Ring. Lots of tears (my eyelids weren't budging though, so I ended up being partially blinded by the floods of water in my eyes. Strange that, I just can't cry at movies).

[mark12_30]

I'm glad I was braced (via spoilers) for the changes from the book. That said: I thought it was superb. THe sense of tension and timing, and the contrast between the army at the Black Gate (hanging on by a thread) and the confrontations, decisions, and reversals at Mount Doom even had me worried, and I knew not just the book but ths spoilers too.

[Carorëiel]

The scene at the Cracks of Doom was not exactly what I expected. I always pictured Gollum falling immediately after biting off Frodo's finger--all in one sort of motion. (Will have to go back to the book to see--perhaps that's a misconception on my part). When it didn't happen that way, I was afraid getting Gollum over the edge would have to be contrived or that Frodo would end up pushing him (that would have been completely wrong). Not sure how I feel about this scene now--will have to wait til I've seen it at least one more time.

[Oddwen]

I suffered at Mt. Doom. It was perfect. Maybe not canon, but right now I don't care.<BR>After a few viewings I'll probably find some fault, but right now I've got RotK on a pedestal and am gazing too hard.

[Enorëiel]

It was very good. The aftermath was a bit different than I had pictured it but still altogether inspiring and good. <P>I also expected Gollum to fall right in after biting off the ring, was a bit surprised when he didn't. Though, I really loved how Frodo (after collapsing and gripping his poor hand) got that look in his eyes like "I have to do this! No one else can! I need to end this now!" then jumped up and began to fight with Gollum. *sigh* So strong and noble... no really - I thought it was very well done. Absolutely loved it! Can't wait to see it again. <P>Oh! and before I forget, I think they had Gollum on the invisable Frodo too long, people started to laugh and I have to admit; it did look quite funny.

[Arathiriel]

Oh it was wonderful - not exactly all the way canonical but hey I <B>loved</B> the added drama of Frodo hanging from the percipice, to say nothing of Sam telling him, "Don't you let go!" - or something to that effect!<P>I was wondering how they'd do Frodo and Gollum's fight and it was well-done I'd say, and thank you for <B>not</B> getting to bloody when Gollum bit off his finger - though I thought Frodo lost more of his finger than he did! <P>Oh well it was <B>WONDERFUL!</B>

[Shy Hobbit]

This was one of the strangest moments of the film. I hate to say bad things about these movies, but this wasn't among my favorite scenes. <P>Gollum on invisible Frodo <I>did</I> last too long, no one laughed, but I had to refrain <P>Frodo going over the edge was a bit remnicsent of Aragorn's tumble in TTT. Maybe I had it all wrong, but I never imagined Gollum being so gleeful and giddy during the actual fall. He should have shrivled long before submerging into the lava, that's hot stuff! And the way he just went down slowly... yikes that was disturbing. I'm not sure why. Don't get me wrong, I loved this film more than any I've ever seen, but this scene was just strange. <P>On the other hand, I love the first half of the scene. The throbbing in the atmosphere, and indecisive Frodo. That was perfect.<p>[ 9:32 PM December 17, 2003: Message edited by: Shy Hobbit ]

[burrahobbit]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Frodo's sprint to the Crack of Doom was perhaps a bit much considering he couldn't move a muscle only seconds earlier.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It was more a psychological, emotional weakness, I think. He wanted to destroy the Ring and he didn't want to. Competing desires cancel each other out in exhaustion. IMHO, YMMV.

[Diamond18]

I loved it. I <B>loved</B> the one shot where it's Frodo in the middle with his head down and just RED all around him. That was a "gasp! oh that looks perfect!" moment for me.<P>The differences from the book didn't bother me because they didn't alter the character motivations—when Frodo ran for Gollum after getting his finger bit off I saw it as "Mine!!!" rather than deciding at the last minute to destroy it after all (I was a little worried he'd push Gollum, but it was clear he was fighting for possession). At first I thought the cliffhanger was too cliché, but I got caught up in it because of Sam's "selling it" (and because it harkened back to the boat scene).<P>Gollum drowning like he was just in water was... odd. But that wasn't the main parts I was looking forward to. Those parts they delivered on, so I'm happy.

[mark12_30]

I wondered about Frodo's final sprint; but after some thought, I like it. For one, he'd just had a rest on Sam's back while Sam carried him. And for another, adrenaline does things like that. I think it worked well.<P>It also reminded me of early morning crew workouts; when we did a six mile run I always thought I was gonna die at mile 5, but then, I always could sprint across the finish line. Go figure.<p>[ 8:42 AM December 18, 2003: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]

[Essex]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Gollum drowning like he was just in water was... odd.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I think Jackson did this to show the hold the ring had on Gollum. There was almost a look of joy on his face as he fell off the chasm, and 'drowned' in the larva. Think of the pain he must have been going through, but this was totally eclipsed by his love/lust for the Ring, which he had finally got back into his hands. He seemed to be blissfully unaware he was about to die. <P>Excellent idea from Jackson et all.<P>Other than that, I was hoping to see a more 'evil' look on Frodo's face as he put on the ring, but the shot of Sauron's eye immeadiately looking towards Mount Doom, and the Nazgul veering off towards the mountain was perfect. Bravo!

[Failivrin]

this was one of my favourite scenes in the whole movie. i loved it. there was the one thing (frodo falling off too) that i didn't like, but i was prepared.<P>i loved the look on Gollum's face and that was actually exactly how i imagined it. i love all of the shots of Frodo being indecisive. the aftermath was beautiful. i loved the wideshot of Frodo and Sam running away as everything crashed around them.<P>oh and finally, 'i am glad you're here with me. here at the end of all things.' made me cry.

[Bill the Pony]

The bit about the lava consuming Gollum before he actually hit it kinda got me too. I would think that he'd have caught fire before he got down there. Along the same lines, Frodo and Sam stranded on that rock...hmm...it would have gotten *mighty* hot on that rock with all that lava around. Oh, and also, I don' think the volcano was correct as far as volcanos go - half of it looked like St. Helens (the explosions, tossing off of big rocks) and half of it looked like the one in Hawaii (the runny lava bit). Those are two very different kinds of volcano! Any vulcanologists present to comment? <P>This is nit-picking, however. The emotional content was enough to forgive the geological stretch. I loved the scene, even if it wasn't exactly "by the book."

[Catherine]

I thought it was a great scene..I liked the way MT. Doom looked and I loved the part with Sam picked up Frodo and carried him! It was great!

[doug*platypus]

<B>Almost But Not Quite</B><P>I think the Sammath Naur (damn that's a cool name!!) was almost the excellent scene it should have been. It was <I>very</I> well done, but I believe that a few mistakes were made. I'm not talking about mistakes as in deviations from the book (I believe I'm finally getting over the need to make comparisons thanks to the latest movie), but pieces that in any movie would have been flaws.<P>Nevermind the fact that Sméagol should have been well crispy several hundred metres before entering the lava. I do have some ability for 'willing suspension of disbelief'. But to have him hit the lava, and sink into hit intact is absolutely <B>ridiculous</B>. Let's just call it <B>Mount Doom - world's largest quicksand depository</B>. I thought that he should have been incinerated just before hitting the lava, and perhaps his charred bones could sink in, yes preciouss. More dramatic, more believable.<P>As for Gollum not toppling in of his own accord: <B>bravo!</B> It's a good thing that none of us purists were charged with the screen adaptation. PJ and Co have definitely not been shy about making improvements to the books. Once or twice they have actually succeeded, most notably here. I always felt that Gollum's demise was a little bit unconvincing. I'd compare the book ending to movieBoromir tripping on a pile of leaves when chasing Frodo. Convenient, yes. Believable, not really. Besides, I think it was completely in character for Frodo by that stage.<P>It's always nice to see someone get smacked in the head with a rock (it's a very rewarding sound, and it reminds of what paleolithic life must have been like), and I thought Gollum did a good job of getting the Fat One out of the way for the fight. His tousle with invisi-Frodo was well protrayed, I believe. It's every bit as weird and freakish as it is in the book. If it didn't come off well in the theatre, I'd suggest that Howard Shore must shoulder the responsibility there. <P>The design of the door was a bit over the top, if you ask me, but the set designers could not have done a better job on the interior. I have to admit, though that I got a flashback to those terrible Moria shenanigans when the pillars started toppling into the fire. Yeck. Sam and Frodo's escape didn't look very credible, either. In the book I managed to believe it was possible, but not the movie. Their island of rock could have been higher, surely, although this wasn't a great problem.<P>And what the $%#@ was that fade to black? Does somebody need to teach PJ how to advance time in a film, or what?!<P>One last gripe. While the crust forming to stop the One Ring melting was very cool, I felt it dragged the scene on unnecessarily. I appreciate PJs tribute to <I>Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom</I> in <I>Fellowship of the Ring</I>, but I ask you: was an <I>Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade</I> homage really called for? Surely Frodo's grief at the loss would have been reason enough for him to not hesitate to grab Sam's hand. By the way, <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Don't you let go! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>was one of the most touching lines of the film. Sean Astin and the writers really did a much better job of Sam in the third film.<P>It was great to see the One Ring finally get its just desserts. I really hated that thing by the end of the movie. When Frodo was dangling it over the fire, I was thinking "Enough! Just get rid of it! I'm so sick of seeing that damn thing!!" So my conclusion overall is that the scene was <B>good but not great</B>. I liked the similarity to the Isildur/Elrond scene, and also the fact that the audience is left wondering, "What if Gollum had not intervened? What would Sam or Frodo have done?"

[Finwe]

Everything in those scenes just made me bawl like a baby. True, Frodo's sprint to the edge was more than a little exaggerated, but it made it seem like Iluvatar gave him a small gift of strength, and he finally managed to make his body obey his will. I bawled like a baby because the scene was just so beautifu.

[pandora]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I'd compare the book ending to movieBoromir tripping on a pile of leaves when chasing Frodo. Convenient, yes. Believable, not really. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You might but there is a deeper meaning in the book's ending. The points made by the ending as written has several layers:<P>1. Evil destroys itself; it is self-destructive. Gollum's greed is his undoing.<P>2. Gollum falls because his entire mind is concentrated on the Ring. This is perhaps an allusion to the Fool of the Tarot cards who is depicted in the act of stepping off a cliff because he is looking up at his distant goal in the same way Gollum is looking up at the Ring. Even if (as seems likely) JRRT was not specifically thinking of the Tarot the idea of missing things of vital import due to being wrapped up in your own affairs is an ancient one.<P>3. It fulfills Gandalf's prophecy that Gollum would in the end be important. Holding the Ring while being pushed in is hardly a great Doom, is it? <P>4. Gollum is there because Sauron not only released him but also had him "rescued" from Rivendell. If he had held on to him Frodo would have failed unless Sam had intervened in some way. Regardless, Sauron unwittingly freed the creature, the very small pathetic creature that in the end destroys him. That's a great piece of literary irony.<P>5. Most importantly, pushing Gollumn (or Denethor, for that matter) suggests that murder is sometimes acceptable even when it is avoidable; Frodo's earlier mercy is shown to have been a thing of convenience, to be recinded when it became an obstacle to his ends. That's very definitely not what this story is about.<P>Note: I haven't seen the film; I'm just saying why this particular scene is not a weak point in the book and certainly not just a "throw away" notion that Tolkien had for an easy ending. In many ways it epitomises what Tolkien was saying and I can't imagine any fiddling with it being an improvement even it it appeals more to a modern and cynical audience who want to see people wreak their revenge on their enemies rather than forgiving them their sins.

[mark12_30]

pandora, this should be a PM but you don't have the symbol for one: Bravo, well put!!!!

[Diamond18]

Frodo does not push Gollum. He and Gollum trip and fall as they fight for possession of the Ring.

[ArathorofBarahir]

I absolutely loved the scenes at Mount Doom, and I wouldn't change a thing.

[doug*platypus]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Frodo does not push Gollum. He and Gollum trip and fall as they fight for possession of the Ring. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I think that pretty much amounts to the same thing. movieFrodo does have some hand in Gollum's demise, as Gollum is not in any danger of falling on his own. I agree with pandora, now (thag you very buch for that post!) that it was a mistake to have Frodo involved in Sméagol's death, although it was Ring-crazy Frodo. It's shockingly similar to the murder of Denethor by Gandalf and Shadowfax.<P>I think this gets tacked on to the ever-growing list of injustices done to Frodo by the movie. I have started to read the books again. I'm past the part where Frodo speaks High Quenya to Gildor and his company and is called an elf-friend by them and by Goldberry. Frodo has already saved his three friends from death in the barrow, and performed <B>two</B> (count 'em, two!) songs. I guess soon I'll reach the chapters where he stabs the Witch-king, saving his life and the quest, and attempts to defy all nine of the Nazgûl at the ford. <B>Alas! for movieFrodo!!</B>

[The Saucepan Man]

I found this scene absolutely stunning, the most amazing scene in a completely amazing film. A few days after seeing the film, this scene is still ingrained upon my mind.<P>The performances of all three actors involved (Sean, Elijah and Andy) were incredible. Sean Astin topped off a wonderful peformance throughout the film and Elijah Wood really came of age, for me, in this scene. The emotions playing on Frodo's face while he struggled to destroy the Ring were utterly credible, making the scene painful to watch and yet gripping.<P>Personally, I think that it was a good film-making decision to have Frodo try to reclaim the Ring after having lost it to Gollum. This is entirely consistent with him having previously claimed it as his own. Also, it meant that we had a more dramatic struggle, since Gollum struggling with an invisible Frodo (as he does in the book) looked strange on screen, and verged on the silly (there were a few muffled laughs in the cinema when we saw this for the second time, which was one time too many in my view).<P>And Frodo most certainly DID NOT push Gollum in. There is no way he could have done that (in either the book or the film version) while Gollum still held the Ring. They struggled, stumbled and both went over the edge. That, for me, is light years away from Frodo pushing Gollum in. And the whole scene is still consistent with Gollum playing his part in the destruction of the Ring (justifying Frodo's mercy) because, had he not attacked Frodo for it, the Ring would have remained with Frodo until the Nazgul arrived to claim it.<P>And it also allowed for that wonderful moment where Frodo almost gave up, rather than grabbing Sam's hand.<P>All in all, I felt that it worked very well indeed, and probably far better than a purely canonical version would have worked on screen.

[Lyta_Underhill]

I must also bow to your conciseness, <B>pandora</B>! I think I'm still blocking out the idea that (movie) Frodo had any willful part in Gollum's death. I may deny it altogether...haven't decided yet! I'm too impressed with other aspects of Elijah Wood's performance to discount his actions like that, though (even though it was the screenwriters, etc. that must have designed the sequence)...it will have to hang in midair until I see the movie several dozen more times, I suppose!<P>Cheers!<BR>Lyta (I just ended up saying nothing, didn't I? )

[Theron Bugtussle]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR><B>Shy Hobbit:</B> Frodo going over the edge was a bit remnicsent of Aragorn's tumble in TTT.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That would be the Peter Jackson "if-one-is-good-then-two-is-better" attitude, like when Aragorn died and resurrected (more or less) since Tolkien had Gandalf die and come back.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>...Gollum...should have shrivled long before submerging into the lava, that's hot stuff! And the way he just went down slowly... yikes that was disturbing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That was an homage (in PJ's mind) to T2 (The Terminator 2). <P>The only thing missing was Gollum/Sméagol giving the thumbs-up sign to his best buddies Sam and Frodo as he sank beneath the surface of the molten rock. <P>* Sméagol sniffs * <I>"We very much regret that we called you a fat, stupid hobbit, our friend, don't we, our Preciouss? And Nice Master, get some medical attention for that finger. Good bye and farewell...think better of me."</I>

[Arathiriel]

Well I've watched this scene twice and honestly I would not change a thing - though a small part of me still fears Frodo was going to let go at the end!<P>I tell you when Frodo claims the Ring as his own - wow but the evil look on his face - Elijah did very well at that part as I must admit I felt like yelling "<B>No!</B>" along with Sam!<P>Yes, this scene is <I>perfect</I> even if it is not entirely canonical!

[Kalimac]

I'm still a little torn - it's certainly consistent to have the Ring-claiming Frodo, if he's still conscious, trying to fight Gollum to get it back, but why change it from what happened in the book? (And since having Gollum go over the edge would be the *last* thing that Frodo would want, I can't agree that he'd be even subconsciously trying to do this, even in a fight scenario. He'd be no more responsible than if Gollum had tripped over him and gone off the edge).<P>The only reason I can think of for changing it from "Frodo knocked out, temporarily unable to do anything" to "Frodo conscious enough to try and get Ring back" is that the way the first scene plays out would be very tricky to do correctly on screen. Think about it, here's Gollum dancing around, crooning "My Precious, O my Precious!", and in his joy he's so oblivious to his surroundings that he *trips and falls of the edge of the cliff*. Terrifying if you're reading about it, terrifying if you're in the Cracks of Doom yourself and watching it, but think how it would look to a movie audience? Almost any way that you played that scene out it would be hard not to stir some subconscious suggestion of a slapstick comedian slipping on a banana peel - "Oops!" - or, worse yet, Wile E. Coyote accidentally running over a cliff. What I mean is, there would be every risk that people would laugh, the same way they laughed at Gollum's little fish song at the pool in TTT, even though nobody actually *in* the story found it very amusing, considering the circumstances. <P>That's OK for a minor scene, but Mount Doom is the climax of about ten hours of movie-watching. If the scene somehow turned into a bad laugh - and while it wouldn't *have* to, it would be a big risk - it would be the worst collapse imaginable. If there's any scene which can't admit of even involuntary humour, surely that one is it.<P>Just my $0.02.

[Lord of Angmar]

That one shot wherein Gollum looks up through the circle of the Ring, with that brilliant, subtly and silently exclamatory, agog expression on his face, was filmmaking perfection. The scene as a whole was beautifully orchestrated, but I did not particularly enjoy the way in which Gollum lost his balanced. It seemed too improbable that Gollum would be jumping at the edge of the cliff while Frodo was still a threat. In the book, this was overcome because it was more instantaneous and Frodo was not fighting back. However, as a whole the scene was incredible. Sam's lines about Rosie Cotton were, in my opinion, some of the most moving of the entire trilogy.

[balrogman]

loved it, my only beef is the flutes, just seemed so out of place

[Gorwingel]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>That was an homage (in PJ's mind) to T2 (The Terminator 2).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, that is what I immediately thought of after Gollum sunk into the lava.<P>That part with Gollum did bother me because yes, he should have been ashes the minute he touched the lava. But maybe they did it the way they did because they had to keep it to a PG-13 rating. Gollum bursting into flames could have been quite violent.<P>Oh, and another thing that I wish they would have included is Gollum's last line in the book of "Precious". That would have been so cool, but alas they didn't include it.<P>I thought that it turned out well, but it was not my favorite part of the film. I have no problem with the Gollum fighting with the invisible Frodo scene, because that is exactly what it would have looked like.<P>Oh and about the Volcano. There can be Volcanos that spew ash, rocks, and have lava flows. Mt. Doom kind of reminded me of Mount Vesuvius in Italy. That is a very violent volcano, that has very violent eruptions, but it also has lava flows just like the volcanos in Hawaii and other tropical places.<p>[ 2:52 AM December 24, 2003: Message edited by: Gorwingel ]