Matrix Revolutions... not a rival for ROTK

[the phantom]

I doubt that ROTK will take in a hundred times more than the Matrix film. I read in the paper yesterday that Revolutions was beating TTT (not in the US but overall around the world). This is from an article I read-<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> The final instalment in the sci-fi Matrix movie trilogy topped the North American box office and grossed a revolutionary $US204 million worldwide through its first weekend, making it the biggest global film opening of all time, Warner Bros studio reported. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That's quite impressive (TTT made about $188 million through the same number of days). Obviously there's a lot of people that love The Matrix.

Actually I read in my paper that Matrix Revolutions had made less money in the first 4 days than Reloaded had in it's first 4 days. I also have seen Revolutions, and I found that they copped out quite a bit on the plotline. My dad actually had a rather intricate theory, and then the movie turned out to be less complicated than Amistad. (I recently watched both, one in Social Class) I really hope that ROTK will be a lot better than Revolutions, since I've noticed a trend in the LOTR movies. The top 250 movies on <A HREF="http://www.imdb.com" TARGET=_blank>IMDb</A> had TTT at number 4, while FOTR was at number 8. Also an <A HREF="http://www.imdb.com/poll/results/2003-11-03" TARGET=_blank>IMDb poll</A> on Nov. 3 asked which December movie people were most looking forward to, with ROTK coming in first out of 18 with 70.9%. I think that the movie will attract a lot more people than TTT just because it's the end of the trilogy, and thus a lot of people who liked the books, but don't like 3 part films will watch the first two soon before going to see ROTK. I also think that ROTK is going to have a very hard time being worse than Revolutions because of the sybolism already in the text, and PJ (hopefully) trying his best not to change the story too much. <P>One last note on the Matrix franchise; I really liked the original Matrix for the meanings, hidden or not, but I found that the next two movies were really short on plot line. the Lord of the Rings franchise so far seems to have (mostly) kept up it's standard. Okay, done my rant.

[kittiegirl]

Right.<BR>I also agree that the first Matrix was the best one.<BR>I really hope that PJ doesn't change the story line too much, otherwise I will sure him.<BR>Nah, just kidding.

[Finnguala]

I haven't seen Matrix Revolutions yet, but I don't think it's going to be better than RotK. And actually, who cares if it is? :P

[the phantom]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> And actually, who cares if it is? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Members of Tolkien fan-sites.

[kittiegirl]

*Nods*<BR>Some of us care at least, including myself.

[lindil]

Well, I thought I would begin to wrap up my increasingly sad thoughts re: 'RotK' by returning to this thread of comparison.<P>I am sure I will be in the minority, perhaps even a lone voice, but for me I felt much better walking out of the theatre after Revolutions than 'RotK'.<P>Why? Do I love the Matrix films more than the writings of M-E in general? Hardly. But the Matrix, was true to itself. For me there was no way, having read LotR/Silm and co. virtually every year since 1976 <B>not to experience the films through the 'matrix' of the books</B>. <P>That others can acheive this feat is clearly a plus for them, and I do not begrudge it to them [though I have already been attacked here for my 'lack of appreciation'] I can see how many who have enjoyed the Books could also enjoy the movies, but excepting the Extended FotR, the 3 Theatrical releases and the Ext TTT are all to close and yet to far from the incredible and at times glorious writings that have come to have such a warm and comforting place in my heart.<P>PJ's films do at times enhance that for me [Rivendell and Lothlorien and a few other odd moments, visualizing Minas Tirith for instance], but far too often PJ gets in the way of the masterful tale and substitutes his own 'hollywood accceptable' version.<P>In reality most of what I love about the films is the work of Alan Lee and John Howe.<BR>Perhaps a better stategy for me will be to pick my scenes judiciously and keep the sound down most of the time. <P><BR>I will avoid the litany of scene breakdowns as that has been done elsewhere, but just wanted to put on record that when I want to sit back and have a great full-scale cinematic experience at home, I will be reaching for The Matrix and co..<P>When I want to enter M-E, it is off to the Bookshelf.<P>Nice try PJ, but I can clearly see why<BR>CJRT won't let you anywhere near <I>The Hobbit</I>.<p>[ 10:38 AM December 21, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

[Elfchick7]

I have Rotk, in fact I went to trilogy tuesday, and I felt that it was very well done. I know that PJ was trying to add his ouch with the paths of the dead and that that was a little much. I was also upset about *Warning Spoiler* He cut out the house of healing. There were a few changes but that is necessary for a movie to keep the audience stuck in it. You must remember that you cannot do the same thing in a movie as you can in a book. As for Matrix Revalutions: Though I have not seen it and don't intent to, my cousin, who loves the Tolkien stories, did. Now let me explain to you that my cousin hates Russel Crow's movies, in fact the only one she would see was Gladiator, and after she saw Revolutions, she was sooooo dissapointed that she felt even a russel crow movie would be better than this. Savi?

[Iris Alantiel]

Maybe this is just the lifelong Tolkien fan in me talking, but I just found the characters much easier to relate to in LotR than in the last two Matrix movies. As for the plot, it was infinitely easier to understand in LotR. <P>I loved the first Matrix movie and I was looking forward to the sequels, but I was extremely disappointed. I thought they were confusing and pretty uninteresting, and by the third one I really didn't care too much about any of the characters at all. (WARNING: SPOILER AHEAD.) In the first movie, and even the second one to some extent, Trinity was one of my favourite characters, but her death scene was so drawn out, I was like, "Get on with it already". <P>Sure, LotR has its flaws (the movie, of course), and I'm not just talking about points where they altered the books. I'm more referring to things like Gimli's rather inconsistent personality over the course of the three movies, and their failure to explain exactly what happened to Éowyn's mysteriously disappearing love for Aragorn (although I still have hope for the EE). But at least the trilogy is overall relatively coherent and they used devices that made you actually care about the characters most of the time. <P>But like I said, that could just be because I already knew and loved the characters for most of my life. So if I've said anything that bothers or offends anyone, feel free to disregard: I'm probably biased anyway.

[Imladris]

Let's put it this way:<P>For me LotR (both book and movie) is much deeper than the Matrix. LotR (the extended editions at least) is better than Matrix in character developement and plot. To me, PJ did a pretty darn good job converting the books to films and I can't blame him for skipping some things. If he didn't the movie would be boring (also, he is limited about how long he can make them: critics were complaining about three hours)<P>At least LotR knows what religion it is promoting, which is a big difference to the mish mash of the Matrix. At least PJ kept the "christian-ness" of the books of Tolkien. If he had slashed that, then the films would be a disappointment. <P>And LotR was <I> clean </I> unlike Reloaded. All these reasons make the movie LotR better than the Matrix.

[lindil]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> And LotR was clean unlike Reloaded.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>A good point there, though I just whiz past the bedroom/rave scene with my handy remote...Just like I do with the Wargs and 'Aragorn' and 'Arwen's' dream tryst.<p>[ 1:16 PM December 24, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

[Jjudvven]

Exactly! I lost the DVD skip scene function! That's exactly what I did yesterday while watching it. <P>Of course the Matrix can't hardly compare to the LotR, so I don't know why anyone is bothering. Revolutions was a good movie, but I don't think anything can come even close to the RotK.

[HCIsland]

Ah, yes the rave scene.<P>You know the sex between Neo and Trinity didn't bother me, but I thought the rave was ridiculous. This was the portion of the movie were they were showing us what they were fighting to preserve and all they could come up with were grinding, bare-chested, supermodels.<P>Compare that Jackson's portrayal of The Shire or even the women and children in Helm's Deep.<P>H.C.

[lindil]

yes, but the women and children of the shire and Helm's Deep were not forced to live in a cave their whole lives now where they? You might start bouncing off the walls to after a decade or so of no sunlight... <P>Also, personally I find the women and childern of the shire or Rohan no less worth saving intrinsically than those of Zion. <P>As for <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Of course the Matrix can't hardly compare to the LotR, so I don't know why anyone is bothering. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Jjudvven, some people [myself for one] prefer a less than perfect movie [or any form of art] that is <I>true to itself</I> and it's aims, than a greater work which is adapted by lesser writers and modified based on the supposed concerns of Hollywood and the perceived necessity to re-arrarnge masterful plotlines and characterizations to fit the needs of 3-4 hour movies. <P>Iris Alantiel posted: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>As for the plot, it was infinitely easier to understand in LotR. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>More or less true, though I had numerous queries from friends who had not read the books as to the relationships between Saruman, Sauron and the Ringwraiths - for some these points of realtion were lost amid all the action. <P>As for the complexity of the Matrix especially reloaded, that was wonderful! A movie that really could have ended up a dozen different ways! <BR>Then again that is exactly what a lot of us feared from PJ as well .<P>Personally I loved the complexity of the matrix and the ferriting out of so many nuances, just like I love it in the Legendarium. The more complex the better I say!<P>Again I do not at all believe that since <B>I</B> find the matrix films more enjoyable than 'TTT' and 'RotK' then everyone else should, this particular paradox is a result of my own experience with the books over 25 or so years and and my own appreciation of the brilliance of the W. brothers [esp in #1].<P>Imladris posted: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> At least LotR knows what religion it is promoting, which is a big difference to the mish mash of the Matrix. At least PJ kept the "christian-ness" of the books of Tolkien. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Hmm... I noticed that 'Gandalf' omitted any reference to the Valar [archangels] during the coronation, and Faramir's saying grace before a meal was axed. Just what Christianness did you see in the 'LotR' movies?<P>Perhaps it was Shadowfax the sentient horse killing Denethor? <P>As for the Matrix using a distinctly unique melange of religious and philosophical themes and references, it is true, but do not forget that the entirity of the Legendarium is built far more upon references and recastings of pagan literature than any direct reliance on Christianity. Tolkien uses a radical amount of restraint in pointing to Christ in the entirety of the Legendarium with the exception of one instance: The Athrabeth in Morgoth's Ring [HoM-E x]. So I really do not see any way that the movie'LotR' is any more Christian than the Matrix. Was not the final scene of Neo [after he has sacrifieced himself for the temoral salvation of the rest of humanity] him being hauled off by the machines with his body/arms outstretched as if crucified? <P>Finally, had the movies been more faithful to the books would my appraisal be otherwise? You bet.<p>[ 1:33 PM December 24, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

[Lathriel]

Personally for me the Matrix will NEVER EVER beat LOTR. For one I believe that the Matrix storyline has dissapeared behind a heavy layer of special affects.<BR>If you have read the LOTR over and over then you should realize there is much more to it than the Matrix. LOTR as a story took 18 years to write. I don't think the Matrix storyline took that long.<BR>Anyway you will probably have guessed I am Anti-Matrix. Just really can't stand it.

[Imladris]

Oh, how I love a good debate! Except when my stupid computer freezes and I loose my post in progress…<P>Okay. Lindil asked me this:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Just what Christianness did you see in the 'LotR' movies? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Remember that scene in Moria, and Gandalf is telling Frodo not to be too eager to deal out death and judgment because the very wise cannot see all ends and that he was meant to have the Ring? These are very clear statements of the sovereignty of a God (even PJ admitted along with Fran and the others that this was a very Christian statement on the commentary of the EE). <BR>As for you’ve insulting statement:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Perhaps it was Shadowfax the sentient horse killing Denethor? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I fail to see how that is even remotely concerned with Christianity. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Legendarium is built far more upon references and recastings of pagan literature than any direct reliance on Christianity. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I am quite aware that Tolkien based many of his writings upon Norse myths (Beowulf and others), but that does not mean that he included the numerous pagan gods, as you implied here: I have only read the first chapter of the Sil, but I have read from others on this very forum that there is only one God in Tolkien’s world: Illuvitar and that his Valar are the angels. That in and of itself (as well as the description of the creation of ME) is Christian. Also, Tolkien was a very faithful Catholic, so why would he promote pagan gods?<P><BR>Throughout the entire books and movies, there are definite Christian themes that PJ portrays in the movies. The themes of self sacrifice (primary in the books) are all portrayed in the movies. The fight to destroy evil at whatever cost is also portrayed in the movies as it was in the books. All of these are Christian themes, and all of them were portrayed in the movies. I did not say that “Christ” or that the “God of the Bible” were referred to in either books or movies. I said that the “Christian-ness” of the books were faithfully portrayed on screen. I hope I have proved my point. <P>As for the lack of Faramir’s prayer I am at a loss to know what you are referring to. The only thing that I find is this:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Before they ate, Faramir and all his men turned and faced west in a moment of silence. … “So we always do,” he said, as they sat down: “we look towards Numenor that was, and beyond to Elvenhome that is, and to that which is beyond Elvenhome and will ever be. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That doesn’t seem like a prayer to me. Also, very confusing to portray on film.<P>Prayer: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> A reverent petition made to God, a god, or another object of worship. <BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>So, if there wasn’t a prayer in the book, why should there be one in the film.<P>As for Gandalf’s reference of the Valar at the coronation, we don’t know if that will be in there since the EE hasn’t come out yet. I notice that you decided to ignore Arwen’s references to the Valar. <P>You see, the clincher with me is this: in the Matrix, there are references to Christianity, ancient mythology, Tauism (sp?), Buddhism, and a bunch of others that I don't even recognize. In LotR, there is only one thing they are promoting: Christianity and its themes. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> So I really do not see any way that the movie'LotR' is any more Christian than the Matrix. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I never said that. I said that LotR knows which religion it is promoting. Basically, Matrix and LotR have the same themes: a Christ figure saving their people, self sacrifice, etc. But LotR does not have the mish mash that Matrix has and that mish mash cancels out the Christianity. <P>Mods, I ask your forgiveness if this is off topic. However, he asked me to prove the Christianity of the film to you and the fact that this film knows which religion it is promoting in contrast to the Matrix and I hope I have.<p>[ 4:18 AM December 28, 2003: Message edited by: Imladris ]

[lindil]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>If you have read the LOTR over and over then you should realize there is much more to it than the Matrix. LOTR as a story took 18 years to write. I don't think the Matrix storyline took that long. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Lathriel, your above quote illustrates my point exactly. The books are far superior to the Matrix, I agree wholeheartedly. <B>But</B> you seem to have missed my point [assuming you were responding to, or referencing my above comments...] that I am <B>drawing a sharp distinction</B> between PJ's 'LotR' and the Books.<P>Imladris, alot of points, so I will try and cover them one by one [all quotes are I.'s]:<P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Remember that scene in Moria, and Gandalf is telling Frodo not to be too eager to deal out death and judgment because the very wise cannot see all ends and that he was meant to have the Ring? These are very clear statements of the sovereignty of a God <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, I bet you Burrahobbit could justify an ethical moralism without deity, but since he may well not be following this thread...<P>... I tend to believe that an implicit underlying moral structure both in RL and in M-E is indicitave of a supreme Creator, I do not think the above sentence comes close to proving it, PJ and co's statements aside. They may have a very low threshold for what qualifies as religious, who can say, with out a far more detailed statement. I suppose 'meant' is the word catching your eye. It does point to someone <I>meaning</I> it to happen, but one better have one's thinking cap on pretty tight to draw the appropriate conclusion before you are spun off into the next lines and scene...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>As for you’ve insulting statement:<P> " Perhaps it was Shadowfax the sentient horse killing Denethor? ""<P>I fail to see how that is even remotely concerned with Christianity. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Me too! How on earth PJ thought that was consistent with Tolkien in anyway shape or form will remain a mystery till the EE perhaps or maybe forever. As this already has it's own thread I will not elaborate4 here, but many folks were bothered by this who are othewise very pro PJ.<P>It was brought up becuase I considered it a case where PJ was abandoning the morality of the books, having Shadowfax [who is supposed to be so closely attuned to G. that G. takes him to Valinor] kicking Denthor back onto the pyre. Lord have mercy. Feel free to elaborate on the insult...or not.<P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I am quite aware that Tolkien based many of his writings upon Norse myths (Beowulf and others), but that does not mean that he included the numerous pagan gods, as you implied here: I have only read the first chapter of the Sil, but I have read from others on this very forum that there is only one God in Tolkien’s world: Illuvitar and that his Valar are the angels. That in and of itself (as well as the description of the creation of ME) is Christian. Also, Tolkien was a very faithful Catholic, so why would he promote pagan gods? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I never said he promoted Pagan gods, I said M-E recast and recycled much of pagan <I>literature</I>. The Valar, as you will discover when you finish reading the Silmarillion , Lost Tales and Morgoth's Ring [in particular] are a sort of hybrid between Classical Pagan 'gods' [Not God or Iluvatar] and Angels. If you were to read the biblical and Christian references re: angels and them compare it with Tolkiens Valar, you would [ I think] have to agree that by and large they much more closely resemble the pagan 'gods'. The essential difference is that the Valar are conciously subservient to Eru/God, whereas most mythological deities are more or less free-agents. The Valar are however depicted as acting and feeling and having responsibilities far closer to 'gods' than anything the Bible or the Fathers and Saints have described as Angelic. See especially Pseudo Dionysios the Aeropagite for the most detailed classical treatment in Christianity of Angels.<P>By and large though, JRRT was interested in doing a massive salvage job on the pagan and sem- pagan myths of Northern Europe. He was not trying to in any <I>obvious</I> way promote Christianity. Of course most people [especially Christians, and myself included] tend to believe that his subtle work of creating a pre-Christian mythology and epic were not only successful point, by there very eliptical omissions and hints point to Christianity [ you could argue much the same for it pointing to any form of Monotheism I think, unless you take the specific reference of Finrod to the inevitable incarnation of God in the Athrabeth which I mentioned earlier].<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Throughout the entire books and movies, there are definite Christian themes that PJ portrays in the movies. The themes of self sacrifice (primary in the books) are all portrayed in the movies. The fight to destroy evil at whatever cost is also portrayed in the movies as it was in the books. All of these are Christian themes, and all of them were portrayed in the movies. I did not say that “Christ” or that the “God of the Bible” were referred to in either books or movies. I said that the “Christian-ness” of the books were faithfully portrayed on screen. I hope I have proved my point. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Sorry, to me at least Imladris you proved nothing so far [there a couple of points I will conced in a bit]. I do not see self-sacrifice as any more of a Christian concept than a Taoist or Buddhist [to name a couple I am familiar with].<P>If you like I can provide some direct qoutes from Buddhist and Taoist texts which pre-date Christ, but for now, I will leave you with the easily researched assertion. <P>Christianity has few novel [read: exclusive] moral or psychological concepts. What is unique about it, is an assertion that God became flesh/fully human in order to repair the effects of the Fall for those who would follow Him,, and that Christ founded a community and instituted Sacraments [or as the Orthodox refer to them as Mysteries]to bind one closer to Truth/Christ. This alone in my opinion [and many practical matters flowing therefrom] are what are unique about Christianity, not it's moral and ethical teachings. these are by and large common property of all of the major religions.<P>None of the above factors in any way makes it into PJ's 'LotR'. None. Yes bits of dialogue survive unmolested here and there, especially Gandalf's [which I have heard Ian had to fight for ] and they often reflect JRRT's moral outlook, but the subtlty and beauty of presentation are lost amidst the many characteratures of characters [Gimli, the fighting Coucil of Elrond, the gluttonus Denethor, Gandalf hitting Denthor and Pippin with his staff, etc] the very fabric upon which JRRT's imbedded message pointing ever so softly to Christ has been [imo] severly distorted. I would be suprised to encounter a person who came to Christ through the Movies, [although I am sure it will happen at least once!] wheras the forums are full of many people [myself included] who count JRRT's writings, as one of the main factors in their conversion. <P>If you feel on a gut or artistic level PJ captured that aspect of the story for you, then I will not try and disuade you of your experience. For me however, virtually all of the more delicate aspects [other than something of the Elves and some little bit Gandalf's spirit, prior to his entry into Gondor] was pretty much obliterated by the recasting of the tale to meet [as so many here bravely justify PJ] the demands of Hollywoood and the 'average' moviegoer.<P>re: Faramir's grace before the meal at Henneth Annun:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>That doesn’t seem like a prayer to me. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, JRRT in the fith footnote to Letter 153 calls the above referenced comments of Faramirs' 'grace at meat'. You may not take it as a prayer, but JRRT certainly did.<P>It is clearly a ritual act, as TTT says it 'was always done'.<P>To fully understand the religious nature of the reference, one should look at the Akallabeth and the early chapters of the Quenta material in either The Silmarillion or Morgoth's Ring to get a picture as to just how reverantly the Valar, and the gift of the Islnad of Numenor were seen by the Elves and the Numenorean Exiles.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Also, very confusing to portray on film. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Yes, especially after what was done to Faramir's character, it is hard to imagine him saying something just as JRRT wrote it, .<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I notice that you decided to ignore Arwen’s references to the Valar. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>If she indeed makes one, I did miss it.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>You see, the clincher with me is this: in the Matrix, there are references to Christianity, ancient mythology, Taoism (sic), Buddhism, and a bunch of others that I don't even recognize. In LotR, there is only one thing they are promoting: Christianity and its themes. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Sorry, I do not see what remains of LotR in PJ's 'LotR' as 'promoting Christianity'. Yes there may be a line or two here and there that are monotheistic [as you above example was]but that is pretty much it.<P> I concede that there is a wide variety of religions/philosophies etc being referenced and drawn upon in Matrix, but as I pointed out above, JRRT also casts a wide net.<P>I do not however think JRRT [much less PJ] is effectively promoting only Christianity [ask Mithadan or Burrahobbit]. JRRT says many times an in many places he was seeking to give England it's own [pre-Christian] mythology. Yes he subtly points to Christ, but more explicitly he points to the Elder and Prose Eddas, the Mabinogion, the Nibelung, Beowulf, Sir Orfeo, etc... Unless one reads his <I>Letters</I> or his biography or some such, one would be free to think whatever one would like as to the relationship of JRRT's references and the religion it was promoting. Of course we know his Catholic roots and can look for them, and indeed find them in Galadriel, the shift of Valar from their Pagan 'god/esses roots to 'angelic' figures. But to say that this is clear in the Movies is I think a seroius overstatment.<P>I will concede that Matrix is ambiguous in it's religio-philisohical themes, thus underlining that the dystopian world of the Matrix is clearly not that of a Christian. <P>But having to me the overall impression was more of Christianity being hinted at than anything else, certainly more than PJ leaving in 'meant to find the Ring' and Arwen's casual mention of the Valar. <P><BR>However, I ask, is the struggle of Good vs. Evil any less clear? Is the theme of self-sacrifice [even in the first movie with Morpheus sacrificing himself for Neo, Neo then trying to sacrifice himself for Morpheus, and thus coming into his own as 'The One'] any less clear? Are the necessities of sometimes needing to buck authority to do what is right, any less clear in either film series?<P>Obviously I could go on. One may not like all the references to other religions, just as one may feel that the Silmarillion is far too pagan, but these are subjective experiences and will differ for each one.<P>To me Neo being carried out seemingly dead in a form clearly recalling Christ being pulled down from the cross and his sacrificing Himself for humanity was far more powerful than any image of sacrife that PJ gives us. Except maybe Shadowfax's sacrificing of Denethor ]<P>As a Christian I do not go to a movie to see my faith justified or even supported, I go to experience art, and to see how it speaks to me. So I did not experience the diversity of references in the Matrix as a hinderance, any more than I do in Tolkien. What I do feel, as I have said before is that I prefer the Matrix because it is purely itself, not a bastardization [meaning literally according to my American Heritage Dictionary: to debase, corrupt] of an already existing work.<P>For me PJ did debase and corrupt Tolkien's LotR. At times he also captured many wonderful scenes [although most of the credit in these instances seems to nbelong to Howe and Lee I am afraid] , but what stands out for me are 'Aragorn', 'Denethor', 'Faramir', 'Gandalf', 'Elrond' and 'Arwen', who are made to say and do things never intended by JRRT and which are so odious at times as to cause many [as these forums show] here to be saddened, and to cause CJRT to say No, to letting PJ do 'The Hobbit'.<p>[ 12:13 PM January 05, 2004: Message edited by: lindil ]

[aleesa]

I agree with Lindil. And I think LotR was not written nor filmed to just promote Christianity, through the values captured in the books or the three films. There are other monotheistic religions that share the same values. I'm not a Christian and I watch LotR because of the love I have for the books and of history (Norse legends, etc) and for entertainment, not for any religous ideas.

[The Only Real Estel]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I agree with Lindil. And I think LotR was not written nor filmed to just promote Christianity<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>lol, certainly not! Watching that movie, the first thing that pops into your head will <B>not</B> be Christianity! Unless you know of Tolkien's parallels of course. That's really like saying that the Matrix is just Kuena Reeves preaching the Bible to you (I have heard people say that), which is an even dumber statement .

[Imladris]

Hmmm….I appear to be misunderstood here. Please understand that I am <I> not </I> saying that LotR was written/filmed to promote Christianity. Thank you, Lindil, for you’re very kind response. I now understand my error and why my reasoning is flawed. <P>Lindil, you made some really good points here that I honestly cannot argue because I do not know enough. It seems to me (because I have only read the first chapter of the Sil, the Hobbit, and LotR) that PJ, I guess, “violated” Tolkien’s works, etc. <P>I enjoy the Matrix: it’s one of my favourite movies. But to me, even with PJ’s flaws of a few different character traits (we have yet to see Faramir in the EE), LotR is still better. So I guess this is a more of a personal choice issue, than one that can be proved.

[The Only Real Estel]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I enjoy the Matrix: it’s one of my favourite movies. But to me, even with PJ’s flaws of a few different character traits (we have yet to see Faramir in the EE), LotR is still better.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I agree. Fotr/RotK are still by far my favorite over any of the Matrix movies...even TTT has an edge over my favorite Matrix movie (the first one).

[Lord of Angmar]

I strongly disliked the second <I>Matrix</I> and have not bothered to see the third installment, but from what I have gathered of the trilogy as a whole it is not nearly as grand as the <I>Lord of the Rings</I> movies. The <I>Lord of the Rings</I> trilogy, for one thing, stands on its morals and ideologies (imbued originally and somewhat unconsciously by Professor Tolkien and translated pretty adeptly by Peter Jackson and Co.) without smacking you over the head with them. The <I>Matrix: Reloaded</I> seemed to me to try too hard to impress with multiple layers of philosophy and a dizzying array of erudite rhetorical questions and answers about the nature of reality, none of which really brought us any closer to some sort of philosophical conclusion. My own opinion, though it will prove nothing to <I>Matrix</I> fans and Tolkien critics, is that Peter Jacksons <I>The Lord of the Rings</I> trilogy was far better acted and carried out, and the awesome scope of Middle-earth and the War of the Ring cannot be rivaled by any computer-simulated alternate-reality world whose goings on seem more like an indecipherable, nauseum-inducing attempt at deep axiom than a coherent work of epic fiction.

[aleesa]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> lol, certainly not! Watching that movie, the first thing that pops into your head will not be Christianity! Unless you know of Tolkien's parallels of course. That's really like saying that the Matrix is just Kuena Reeves preaching the Bible to you (I have heard people say that), which is an even dumber statement <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I just think that the values promoted throughtout the movies are quite universal. Most religions promote goodness and the self-sacrifice for the greater good. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I never said that. I said that LotR knows which religion it is promoting. Basically, Matrix and LotR have the same themes: a Christ figure saving their people, self sacrifice, etc. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Eventhough Tolkien was a Catholic, the values he instilled in LotR, whether subconsciously or not, are values that are promoted by others too.<P>For me LotR was something that enriches the imagination, what with its vivid description of history, the peoples and places and to see it on screen was amazing. The Matrix (the first movie at least) sometimes can be thought provoking. But I still prefer LotR over the Matrix because of my interest in it since in my teens. Not total obsession, just an interest. <P>**This whole thing is just a process.

[The Only Real Estel]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I just think that the values promoted throughtout the movies are quite universal. Most religions promote goodness and the self-sacrifice for the greater good. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Precisely, values can be promoted without pushing a particular religous agenda. Which is why it ticks me off to see movie critics say things like, 'among other problems with Reloaded, the overt Christian theme that prevailed was sickening,' when they are using the 'prayer scene' as a basis for that. In case they didn't know, almost <B>all</B> religons pray, so you can't pin any one down in particlar. Anyways, sorry if that was to off-topic .

[Lord of Angmar]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Basically, Matrix and LotR have the same themes: a Christ figure saving their people, self sacrifice, etc.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I do not see any Christ figures in the <I>Lord of the Rings</I>, except maybe Gandalf. Frodo, the ultimate Savior of Middle-earth (in a sense), does not resemble in any way the Catholic idea of Christ, since he succumbs ultimately to temptation. While Gandalf may be imbued with Christ-like qualities, I see no real allegory, consciously or otherwise, between the two, other than their basic roles. I can not speak to the ultimate role of Neo since I have not seen <I>Matrix: Revolutions</I>, but certainly his role as savior is, for the most part, bereft of any Christ-like qualities other than his role as savior of the people.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I just think that the values promoted throughtout the movies are quite universal. Most religions promote goodness and the self-sacrifice for the greater good.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Agreed. To say that the movies are a conscious reflection solely of Christian ideology is at best a minor misinterpretation and at worst a statement of ignorance. Tolkien went to pains to remove any potential Catholic allegory, and thus the basic morals of the story (and, ergo, the movies) are reflections of the general morality taught and adhered to in modern First World society.

[Imladris]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I do not see any Christ figures in the Lord of the Rings, except maybe Gandalf. Frodo, the ultimate Savior of Middle-earth (in a sense), does not resemble in any way the Catholic idea of Christ, since he succumbs ultimately to temptation. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Christ figures are different than "Christs." I like to consider Neo like King David/Moses/other Christ figures in the Bible. You're right that there technically is no Christ figure in ME: I don't know why, but I always pictured Aragorn as a loose Christ figure (loose is the key word there).<P>Here's how I feel about the religious qualities of LotR vs Matrix: I don't like listening to the oracle's mumbo jumbo, and in a way the whole movie is tied to that. LotR does not have that mumbo jumbo. Clear enough?