Some long shot guesses - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

littlemanpoet · 12-22-2003, 07:51 PM

I have one, but I figure some of you may have some long shot guesses of your own. Feel free to bring them up here. Here's mine:

I was reading a book about Westminster Abbey, which mentioned that in the name of London, the 'lon' part was based on Celtic 'lyn', for 'pool'. I immediately recalled that there is a Lindon in Middle Earth. I'm trying to recall where it's located, and wonder if Tolkien named it as his prehistoric London? What do you think?

Finwe · 12-22-2003, 08:45 PM

I don't think the name Lindon or the place, Lindon, has anything to do with pool." "Lindon" means "Land of Singers," which I'm assuming is based upon the fact that Elves lived there for a very long time, even through the First Age.

Gil-Galad · 12-22-2003, 10:28 PM

Lindon is west of the Shire, the Grey Havens are located in the middle of it (roughly) after Beleriand was destoyed, many elves went there instead of heading back to Valinor, in Lindon was mostly the Teleri and the Noldor, some Sindar to but most of them went to Lorien and Greenwood

Findegil · 12-23-2003, 06:46 AM

The places of London in England and Lindon in Middle-Earth have nothing in common. But the connection of the names is not totaly out of possibility:
The first element in Lindon does indeed refer to the Lindai 'the singers' the elves of the third clan. The name Lindai was from its begining connected to water as well. It refered to the sound of water running fast over stones which is said to have been an insipration of the Lindai. So if the first element of London is drived from 'lyn' celtic for 'pool' we could even argue that this connection was intetional on Tolkiens side (not for London but for the celtic word 'lyn'), since he made more than one such linguistical-connection.

Respectfully
Findegil

Rumil · 12-23-2003, 06:00 PM

I have heard that London is based on the Celtic (or should I say Brythonic?) stem of "Londo" which, appropriately enough, maybe, means "the empty place".

I think this may be based on a comment from one of the Bernard Cornwell books though, so please don't treat it as gospel!

littlemanpoet · 12-23-2003, 11:16 PM

Thank you for your helpful and interesting responses. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

I apologize for not expressing myself as clearly as I might have. Findegil's answer shows that he saw through my muddled prose rather well.

I didn't expect a geographical one-to-one relation; that's hardly Tolkien's way, I supopse. And do I understand correctly that JRRT did in fact use Welsh as the basis for one of his elvish language? And if this was so, is it perhaps not such a far stretch that the elvish people who spoke the language based on Welsh, would therefore have a personality akin to the Welsh? Maybe I'm way out on a limb this time, but I find the possibility interesting and, if meritorious, perhaps robust in offering new areas of exploration. Sorry for all the multi-syllabic verbage. It's just how my mind is working tonight, I guess. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

Finwe · 12-24-2003, 04:24 PM

Hmmm... that could be possible.

However, to compare the Elves to the people of Wales, we'd have to come up with definitive characteristics of each group. Can anyone come up with definitive characteristics of Welshmen?

Kalimac · 12-24-2003, 06:48 PM

Musical? That would fit.

littlemanpoet · 12-25-2003, 07:55 PM

Having Druidic roots, the Welsh are in tune to nature - which is elvish, too.

12-22-2003, 07:51 PM	#1
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	Some long shot guesses I have one, but I figure some of you may have some long shot guesses of your own. Feel free to bring them up here. Here's mine: I was reading a book about Westminster Abbey, which mentioned that in the name of London, the 'lon' part was based on Celtic 'lyn', for 'pool'. I immediately recalled that there is a Lindon in Middle Earth. I'm trying to recall where it's located, and wonder if Tolkien named it as his prehistoric London? What do you think?

12-22-2003, 08:45 PM	#2
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	I don't think the name Lindon or the place, Lindon, has anything to do with pool." "Lindon" means "Land of Singers," which I'm assuming is based upon the fact that Elves lived there for a very long time, even through the First Age. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

12-22-2003, 10:28 PM	#3
Gil-Galad Psyche of Prince Immortal Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Above a Parapet Obvious exits are: North, South, and Dennis Posts: 4,734	Lindon is west of the Shire, the Grey Havens are located in the middle of it (roughly) after Beleriand was destoyed, many elves went there instead of heading back to Valinor, in Lindon was mostly the Teleri and the Noldor, some Sindar to but most of them went to Lorien and Greenwood __________________ Love doesn't blow up and get killed.

12-23-2003, 06:00 PM	#5
Rumil Sage & Onions Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Britain Posts: 894	I have heard that London is based on the Celtic (or should I say Brythonic?) stem of "Londo" which, appropriately enough, maybe, means "the empty place". I think this may be based on a comment from one of the Bernard Cornwell books though, so please don't treat it as gospel! __________________ Rumil of Coedhirion

12-24-2003, 04:24 PM	#7
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	Hmmm... that could be possible. However, to compare the Elves to the people of Wales, we'd have to come up with definitive characteristics of each group. Can anyone come up with definitive characteristics of Welshmen? __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

12-23-2003, 06:46 AM	#4
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,721	The places of London in England and Lindon in Middle-Earth have nothing in common. But the connection of the names is not totaly out of possibility: The first element in Lindon does indeed refer to the Lindai 'the singers' the elves of the third clan. The name Lindai was from its begining connected to water as well. It refered to the sound of water running fast over stones which is said to have been an insipration of the Lindai. So if the first element of London is drived from 'lyn' celtic for 'pool' we could even argue that this connection was intetional on Tolkiens side (not for London but for the celtic word 'lyn'), since he made more than one such linguistical-connection. Respectfully Findegil

12-23-2003, 11:16 PM	#6
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	Thank you for your helpful and interesting responses. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I apologize for not expressing myself as clearly as I might have. Findegil's answer shows that he saw through my muddled prose rather well. I didn't expect a geographical one-to-one relation; that's hardly Tolkien's way, I supopse. And do I understand correctly that JRRT did in fact use Welsh as the basis for one of his elvish language? And if this was so, is it perhaps not such a far stretch that the elvish people who spoke the language based on Welsh, would therefore have a personality akin to the Welsh? Maybe I'm way out on a limb this time, but I find the possibility interesting and, if meritorious, perhaps robust in offering new areas of exploration. Sorry for all the multi-syllabic verbage. It's just how my mind is working tonight, I guess. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

12-24-2003, 06:48 PM	#8
Kalimac Candle of the Marshes Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Flyover Country Posts: 780	Musical? That would fit. __________________ Father, dear Father, if you see fit, We'll send my love to college for one year yet Tie blue ribbons all about his head, To let the ladies know that he's married.

12-25-2003, 07:55 PM	#9
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	Having Druidic roots, the Welsh are in tune to nature - which is elvish, too.