How'd Sam know? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Elvish Archer · 10-10-2003, 12:01 AM

In FotR, early on there's a slightly emotion provoking scene where Sam "goes farther from home then he'd ever been." But when Frodo and he get trampled by Pippin and Merry, Sam accuses them of getting into Farmer Maggot's crops. My question is this: How'd he know?

Eurytus · 10-10-2003, 02:02 AM

Maybe Farmer Maggot had won the all-Shire best crop award and the fact had been heavily publicised in the Shire Telegraph.

Essex · 10-10-2003, 02:54 AM

no, it's called a mistake. that's what can happen when you change the plot and don't think about things carefully enough!ps in the book, sam doesn't say the lines, but does think about how far he has gone when he is travelling in the shire.in the film the farmer maggot reference didn't work well for me. and the coincidence of bumping into merry and pippin did not work well either. I mean what are the chances of that!just imagine what a great scene it would have been for the black rider to speak with maggot and offer him gold for information. that would have been great. oh well....

Eurytus · 10-10-2003, 05:36 AM

Erm, you do know that my post wasn't actually serious don't you?In any case it wasn't necessarily a mistake. Whilst it does not sit well, it is quite possible that since all 4 hobbits are portrayed as friends, Sam could be well aware that Merry & Pippin had a habit of stealing from a Farmer Maggot.Friends do talk after all...

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 10-10-2003, 06:06 AM

It's true that there's not a logical gap in this incident, however I do think that its simply a case of the filmmakers not thinking too hard about what they probably saw as unimportant dialogue.Or maybe it was the prize-winning cabbages of Farmer Maggot which Sam, who probably knows his food, espied.

The Only Real Estel · 10-10-2003, 10:20 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>In any case it wasn't necessarily a mistake. Whilst it does not sit well, it is quite possible that since all 4 hobbits are portrayed as friends, Sam could be well aware that Merry & Pippin had a habit of stealing from a Farmer Maggot.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That's diffentatly a good possiblity, & most likely the answer to the question. I really hadn't thought of it before, but I'm sure that Sam had heard of Farmer Maggot sometime in his childhood. Maggot was probably at all the parties anyway...

Essex · 10-10-2003, 10:31 AM

I still say it was a mistake. the filmakers are not perfect. EG another one, how did gandalf know what gollum told his torturers? or was it gandalf didn't bother to tell frodo he'd captured gollum? that's why legolas came to the council (to apologise for losing him!)

Essex · 10-10-2003, 10:36 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Erm, you do know that my post wasn't actually serious don't you? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>yes. It's actually called the Shire Times

kittygirl02 · 10-10-2003, 10:57 AM

All i can say is that's not in the books, so it wouldn't make perfect sense, and, yeah, maybe they did have a habit of getting into Farmer maggots crops. And mayeb Sam knew where they were.

HCIsland · 10-10-2003, 11:06 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I still say it was a mistake. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Oh come on, is it that hard to imagine Frodo telling Sam, "This is Farmer Maggot's field. Boy, I spent a lot of my youth here stealing mushrooms. Those were the days."You know, you are allowed to connect some of the dots yourself.H.C.

Daisy Brambleburr · 10-10-2003, 12:58 PM

I never found that part of the plot particularly confusing. I just guessed that Sam either knew that they were in, or close to, Farmer Maggot's field, and when he saw Merry and Pippin running like the dickens, clasping lots of vegetables, he put two and two together. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Sam could be well aware that Merry & Pippin had a habit of stealing from a Farmer Maggot.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>And for the record I didn't like the part of the plot that had Merry and Pippin join Frodo and Sam. They showed them to the ferry, then just never went home...

Eurytus · 10-10-2003, 01:38 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I still say it was a mistake. the filmakers are not perfect. EG another one, how did gandalf know what gollum told his torturers? or was it gandalf didn't bother to tell frodo he'd captured gollum? that's why legolas came to the council (to apologise for losing him!) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>In the book, didn't Gandalf state that he had visited Gollum himself to get the truth. The news that Legolas brought to the council was only that Gollum had escaped which Gandalf had already heard from Gwahir.

peonydeepdelver · 10-10-2003, 02:35 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I never found that part of the plot particularly confusing. I just guessed that Sam either knew that they were in, or close to, Farmer Maggot's field, and when he saw Merry and Pippin running like the dickens, clasping lots of vegetables, he put two and two together. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Ditto. That part I found totally the opposite of confusing.

kittygirl02 · 10-10-2003, 03:23 PM

yes imagine if you saw one of your friends ruuning like their pants were on fire, then I think you'd figure that out.

Lyta_Underhill · 10-10-2003, 08:17 PM

As I recall in the books, Pippin was very good friends with Farmer Maggot and was the ONLY reason he didn't set the dogs on the group, and Frodo was the one who should have been afraid, because his name had been feared among Farmer Maggot's mushrooms in his youth! I always liked Frodo telling Farmer Maggot that he had missed a good friend for 30 years because he was so afraid to go back there after all the mushrooms he stole! And then the farmer's wife fixes him more! I thought it a charming bit of hobbitiana, myself! I do understand why they couldn't use it in the movie, but I find Pippin running like the dickens away from Farmer Maggot's dogs and Frodo's seeming unconcern or confusion ironic for that reason!Cheers, Lyta

Finwe · 10-11-2003, 08:17 AM

Just because he looks like one doesn't mean that Sam was a thick-headed lout. Just knowing Pippin, and seeing him running like a fire had been lit under his bottom, while holding a bunch of vegetables, would make the stupidest Hobbit put two and two together. The screenwriters didn't have to put every single bit of dialogue in there to explain things to the audience. Most of the time, they know that the audience is smart enough to make inferences on their own, and don't need everything handed to them on silver platters.

Essex · 10-12-2003, 09:09 AM

A few of you are valiantly making excuses for an innocent mistake! The scriptwriters are not perfect. Frodo hadn't been to maggot's fields in 30 years, and according to jackson, Sam had never ventured to that point, so how would he know? Why on earth would frodo tell sam that he was terrified of maggot, if sam didn't know him or had never been there?PS re gandalf 'capturing' gollum in the books, that's EXACTLY what I meant, but this is not explained in the film. In the film, how did gandalf know that gollum had been captured?

Elentári_O_Most_Mighty_1 · 10-12-2003, 09:45 AM

Well, I don't know how Gandalf knew Gollum was captured in the films, but maybe it's hard to make sure everything makes sense to a non-book person when you know the books already... <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> how did gandalf know what gollum told his torturers? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> He didn't actually say what Gollum said- the scene cut to Gollum being tortured and somehow Frodo could hear what was said.And no, it's the Daily Shire Express. But no, I didn't find that bit at all confusing, because any gaps were filled in subconciously by my knowledge of the story. Does that make any sense at all?

HCIsland · 10-13-2003, 01:55 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Why on earth would frodo tell sam that he was terrified of maggot, if sam didn't know him or had never been there?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Who ever said Sam didn't know him? It certainly would be normal farmer behaviour for him to bring his goods to populated centers (like Hobbiton) to sell them. Sam could have met Maggot on any number of occassions. Why would Frodo talk to Sam about him? Because they are passing through a field where Frodo spent his youth and it would be a natural thing to talk about.I'm not saying there isn't mistakes in the film. Just that this isn't one of them.Here's some mistakes.* How in earth does Gandalf expect to ride to Isengard and back to Bree in the same amount of time as it would take Sam and Frodo to walk from Hobbiton to Bree?* When Frodo asks Butterbur about the stranger in the corner at the Prancing Pony, Pippin can clearly be seen sitting opposite to Frodo even though he has left to get himself a pint at the bar.* Boromir's arm alternates from being on Aragorn's shoulder and off again during his death scene as the cuts go from him to Aragorn.* Pippin has his hands bound when the Rohirrim attack but they are unbound when he is almost trampled by the horse. After that shot they are bound again.* Orthanc is not "north-east" at any stretch along the road from Amon Hen.Mistakes happen. I have little problem with them, especially in movies a complex as these.H.C.

10-13-2003, 03:35 PM

Well, with Pippin's hands, being bound, you know he got his bonds cut. You see it in the sort of flashback thing when Aragorn is at the site of the attack. "Their bonds were cut" -Aragorn

The Only Real Estel · 10-13-2003, 04:52 PM

Orli'sTopFanGirl: That scene where Pipping cuts his 'bonds' happens after the bound-unbound-bound scene.

Essex · 10-14-2003, 05:40 AM

What I meant re mistakes were PLOT errors, not silly mistakes (ie the pippin/merry one mentioned above).Although the 'north east' was ridiculous,and Theoden's "300 Leagues from here" line, I believe, should have been 100 leagues or 300 miles maybe.But yes, all of what you guys say above could be the reason for Sam 'knowing'. It's just that we are trying to explain away things that didn't happen in the book, but happened in the film, because they changed the plot!My main bone of contention in these films is giving different characters the actions other characters did.Funnily enough three of these changes happened in a couple of minutes by the wall of Moria. Frodo guesses the riddle on the door of Moria instead of Gandalf. Pippin throws the stone into the lake when it should have been Boromir. Legolas, Aragorn and Boromir save Frodo from the Watcher when it should have been Sam!Again, you all will probably have some good reasons as to why these things happened in the film, but to me THIS IS NOT THE POINT. Why make excuses or try to think things up as to why these things happened in the film, when they did not happen in the book?I just have to admit that Jackson has changed lots of the story but has still managed to make great films........

HCIsland · 10-14-2003, 07:30 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> What I meant re mistakes were PLOT errors <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>and <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Why make excuses or try to think things up as to why these things happened in the film, when they did not happen in the book? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I'm sorry Essex, I'm still not sure what you are saying here. It seems like you are changing what you are talking about on the fly. First you said it was a mistake. Now it seems you are equating plot errors to changes from the book, as if the two were synonymous.If you are saying that because this is a change from the book it is therefore an error, I have to contend with that.If you are saying that since it is a change from the book and is therefore not worth discussion, I have to contend with that too. Films should have their own internal logic that is independent of any books they are based upon.If you are simply making the observation that this is a change from the book, then I would have to agree with the observation, but that was not what you said in your original post in this thread.H.C.

Essex · 10-14-2003, 10:09 AM

Let me clarify my opinions:A mistake is Pippin sitting in a seat in the Pony when it should have been Merry.A plot error is Sam knowing that they were in Maggot's field when he had never been that far in the Shire before.A plot error is not whether the film is different to the book. What I mean is that the filmakers sometimes MADE plot errors (when they changed the story), but I know of no plot errors in the books.For example, another plot error (I believe). "Aragorn. This is Isildur's heir?" to paraprhase Boromir in the film version Council of Elrond. How on earth does he know this? In the book version, he is told that Aragorn is the heir of Isildur by Elrond, I believe. In the film ,he comes right out and says it without anyone telling him. Book - no plot error Film - plot error

Essex · 10-14-2003, 10:15 AM

To add to my last post, I .haveconfused the issue further by stating in a previous post: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> My main bone of contention in these films is giving different characters the actions other characters did.Funnily enough three of these changes happened in a couple of minutes by the wall of Moria. Frodo guesses the riddle on the door of Moria instead of Gandalf. Pippin throws the stone into the lake when it should have been Boromir. Legolas, Aragorn and Boromir save Frodo from the Watcher when it should have been Sam! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>These are not plot errors as you have correctly pointed out. I was going off on a tangent with this. These are just things that annoy me as the filmakers have changed things, in my opinion, for no particular reason.

HCIsland · 10-14-2003, 02:18 PM

Thanks, Essex. Now I feel free to disagree with you, at least on the Sam knowing he was in Maggot's Field. As for Boromir's comment, I agree with you on that one. I can't see how the name Aragorn son of Arathorn would mean anything to him. The moment works in the film though and allows a scene that could otherwise be fairly awkward to move ahead.Editted to add: You know, about the Boromir comment, it does work within the logic of the film as there is nothing to suggest that Boromir doesn't know the name Aragorn, so it really can't be considered an error. Then this fun thought occured to me. We know that Denethor knows of this "ranger from the north" and very possibly may have heard the name Aragorn. We also know that there is a scene between Denethor and Boromir before Boromir left for Rivendell in the EE Towers. Wouldn't it be wonderful if there is a line from Denethor like, "The wizard, Mithrandir, has a pupil, a man he claims to be the last in Isildur's line. His name is Aragorn. Be wary of both him and Mithrandir."H.C.[ October 14, 2003: Message edited by: HCIsland ]

Kalimac · 10-15-2003, 12:24 AM

I agree about the Sam thing being a flub, in the sense that the filmmakers forgot their dialogue continuity, but don't think it's that big a deal. After all, it can be pretty easily explained, as everyone here has demonstrated . Besides, I think of Maggot as a famous local character who probably visited Hobbiton a fair number of times and was much talked of in the Green Dragon. Sam's probably heard of M & P's crop-stealing predilection before. It could work.About the "Isildur's Heir" lane, there doesn't seem to be so much of a logic leap there. If I remember correctly, Legolas says "He is Aragorn, son of Arathorn. You owe him your allegiance." Even if Boromir had never heard either of those names before (and we don't know that he hasn't) the bit about owing allegiance would narrow the possibilities down a lot. To whom else would Boromir owe allegiance except the Heir of Isildur? The House of the Stewards is probably the highest non-elven house ever mentioned in the books; even Gandalf points out that although Denethor is not technically a king, he's still more powerful than Theoden, who is one. Just my $0.02.

10-10-2003, 12:01 AM	#1
Elvish Archer Animated Skeleton Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Land of Insanity, State of Denial Posts: 36	How'd Sam know? In FotR, early on there's a slightly emotion provoking scene where Sam "goes farther from home then he'd ever been." But when Frodo and he get trampled by Pippin and Merry, Sam accuses them of getting into Farmer Maggot's crops. My question is this: How'd he know? __________________ Fan of LotR, before it was a fad. He who laughs last, thinks slowest.

10-10-2003, 02:02 AM	#2
Eurytus Wight Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: England Posts: 179	Maybe Farmer Maggot had won the all-Shire best crop award and the fact had been heavily publicised in the Shire Telegraph. __________________ "This is the most blatant case of false advertising since my suit against the movie The Neverending Story!" Lionel Hutz

10-10-2003, 02:54 AM	#3
Essex Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Essex, England Posts: 886	no, it's called a mistake. that's what can happen when you change the plot and don't think about things carefully enough!<P>ps in the book, sam doesn't say the lines, but does think about how far he has gone when he is travelling in the shire.<P>in the film the farmer maggot reference didn't work well for me. and the coincidence of bumping into merry and pippin did not work well either. I mean what are the chances of that!<P>just imagine what a great scene it would have been for the black rider to speak with maggot and offer him gold for information. that would have been great. oh well....

10-10-2003, 05:36 AM	#4
Eurytus Wight Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: England Posts: 179	Erm, you do know that my post wasn't actually serious don't you?<P>In any case it wasn't necessarily a mistake. Whilst it does not sit well, it is quite possible that since all 4 hobbits are portrayed as friends, Sam could be well aware that Merry & Pippin had a habit of stealing from a Farmer Maggot.<P>Friends do talk after all... __________________ "This is the most blatant case of false advertising since my suit against the movie The Neverending Story!" Lionel Hutz

10-10-2003, 06:06 AM	#5
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	It's true that there's not a logical gap in this incident, however I do think that its simply a case of the filmmakers not thinking too hard about what they probably saw as unimportant dialogue.<P>Or maybe it was the prize-winning cabbages of Farmer Maggot which Sam, who probably knows his food, espied. __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

10-10-2003, 10:20 AM	#6
The Only Real Estel Raffish Rapscallion Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Far from the 'Downs, it seems :-( Posts: 2,835	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>In any case it wasn't necessarily a mistake. Whilst it does not sit well, it is quite possible that since all 4 hobbits are portrayed as friends, Sam could be well aware that Merry & Pippin had a habit of stealing from a Farmer Maggot.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That's diffentatly a good possiblity, & most likely the answer to the question. I really hadn't thought of it before, but I'm sure that Sam had heard of Farmer Maggot sometime in his childhood. Maggot was probably at all the parties anyway...

10-10-2003, 10:31 AM	#7
Essex Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Essex, England Posts: 886	I still say it was a mistake. the filmakers are not perfect. EG another one, how did gandalf know what gollum told his torturers? or was it gandalf didn't bother to tell frodo he'd captured gollum? that's why legolas came to the council (to apologise for losing him!)

10-10-2003, 10:36 AM	#8
Essex Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Essex, England Posts: 886	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Erm, you do know that my post wasn't actually serious don't you? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>yes. It's actually called the Shire <I>Times</I>

10-10-2003, 10:57 AM	#9
kittygirl02 Haunting Spirit Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Middle Earth Posts: 61	All i can say is that's not in the books, so it wouldn't make perfect sense, and, yeah, maybe they did have a habit of getting into Farmer maggots crops. And mayeb Sam knew where they were. __________________ Flames are your source of faith.A tool of good, not evil. I may be different, but differences don't make you special.It's what you do with your differences that make you special.

10-10-2003, 11:06 AM	#10
HCIsland Zombie Cannibal Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,000	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I still say it was a mistake. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Oh come on, is it that hard to imagine Frodo telling Sam, "This is Farmer Maggot's field. Boy, I spent a lot of my youth here stealing mushrooms. Those were the days."<P>You know, you are allowed to connect some of the dots yourself.<P>H.C. __________________ "Stir not the bitterness in the cup that I mixed myself. Have I not tasted it now many nights upon my tongue, foreboding that worse yet lay in the dregs." -Denethor

10-10-2003, 12:58 PM	#11
Daisy Brambleburr Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 334	I never found that part of the plot particularly confusing. I just guessed that Sam either knew that they were in, or close to, Farmer Maggot's field, and when he saw Merry and Pippin running like the dickens, clasping lots of vegetables, he put two and two together. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Sam could be well aware that Merry & Pippin had a habit of stealing from a Farmer Maggot.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>And for the record I didn't like the part of the plot that had Merry and Pippin join Frodo and Sam. They showed them to the ferry, then just never went home... __________________ 'What news from the South, O sighing wind, do you bring to me at eve? Where now is Boromir the Fair? He tarries and I grieve.'

10-10-2003, 01:38 PM	#12
Eurytus Wight Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: England Posts: 179	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I still say it was a mistake. the filmakers are not perfect. EG another one, how did gandalf know what gollum told his torturers? or was it gandalf didn't bother to tell frodo he'd captured gollum? that's why legolas came to the council (to apologise for losing him!) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>In the book, didn't Gandalf state that he had visited Gollum himself to get the truth. The news that Legolas brought to the council was only that Gollum had escaped which Gandalf had already heard from Gwahir. __________________ "This is the most blatant case of false advertising since my suit against the movie The Neverending Story!" Lionel Hutz

10-10-2003, 02:35 PM	#13
peonydeepdelver Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Alas, I hail from Massachusetts Posts: 256	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I never found that part of the plot particularly confusing. I just guessed that Sam either knew that they were in, or close to, Farmer Maggot's field, and when he saw Merry and Pippin running like the dickens, clasping lots of vegetables, he put two and two together. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Ditto. That part I found totally the opposite of confusing. __________________ "Nazgul, Nazgul! You speak of what is deep beyond the reach of your muddy dreams, Ugluk! Nazgul! Ah! All that they make out! One day you'll wish that you had not said that. Ape! You ought to know that they're the apple of the Great Eye." ~Grishnakh

10-10-2003, 03:23 PM	#14
kittygirl02 Haunting Spirit Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Middle Earth Posts: 61	yes imagine if you saw one of your friends ruuning like their pants were on fire, then I think you'd figure that out. __________________ Flames are your source of faith.A tool of good, not evil. I may be different, but differences don't make you special.It's what you do with your differences that make you special.

10-10-2003, 08:17 PM	#15
Lyta_Underhill Haunted Halfling Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: an uncounted length of steps--floating between air molecules Posts: 841	As I recall in the books, <I>Pippin</I> was very good friends with Farmer Maggot and was the ONLY reason he didn't set the dogs on the group, and <I>Frodo</I> was the one who should have been afraid, because his name had been feared among Farmer Maggot's mushrooms in his youth! I always liked Frodo telling Farmer Maggot that he had missed a good friend for 30 years because he was so afraid to go back there after all the mushrooms he stole! And then the farmer's wife fixes him more! I thought it a charming bit of hobbitiana, myself! I do understand why they couldn't use it in the movie, but I find Pippin running like the dickens away from Farmer Maggot's dogs and Frodo's seeming unconcern or confusion ironic for that reason!<P>Cheers,<BR>Lyta __________________ “…she laid herself to rest upon Cerin Amroth; and there is her green grave, until the world is changed, and all the days of her life are utterly forgotten by men that come after, and elanor and niphredil bloom no more east of the Sea.”

10-11-2003, 08:17 AM	#16
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	Just because he looks like one doesn't mean that Sam was a thick-headed lout. Just knowing Pippin, and seeing him running like a fire had been lit under his bottom, while holding a bunch of vegetables, would make the stupidest Hobbit put two and two together. The screenwriters didn't have to put every single bit of dialogue in there to explain things to the audience. Most of the time, they know that the audience is smart enough to make inferences on their own, and don't need everything handed to them on silver platters. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

10-12-2003, 09:09 AM	#17
Essex Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Essex, England Posts: 886	A few of you are valiantly making excuses for an innocent mistake! The scriptwriters are not perfect. Frodo hadn't been to maggot's fields in 30 years, and according to jackson, Sam had never ventured to that point, so how would he know? Why on earth would frodo tell sam that he was terrified of maggot, if sam didn't know him or had never been there?<P>PS re gandalf 'capturing' gollum in the books, that's EXACTLY what I meant, but this is not explained in the film. In the film, how did gandalf know that gollum had been captured?

10-12-2003, 09:45 AM	#18
Elentári_O_Most_Mighty_1 Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Up a tree somewhere in Caras Galadhon...or England Posts: 364	Well, I don't know how Gandalf knew Gollum was captured in the films, but maybe it's hard to make sure everything makes sense to a non-book person when you know the books already...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> how did gandalf know what gollum told his torturers? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> He didn't actually say what Gollum said- the scene cut to Gollum being tortured and somehow Frodo could hear what was said.<P>And no, it's the Daily Shire Express. <P>But no, I didn't find that bit at all confusing, because any gaps were filled in subconciously by my knowledge of the story. Does that make any sense at all? __________________ '"Forweg can lead you no longer; for he is dead...I slew him...I will govern this fellowship now, or leave it." "As it was when he joined us, so it is again. He kills to make room."'

10-13-2003, 01:55 PM	#19
HCIsland Zombie Cannibal Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,000	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Why on earth would frodo tell sam that he was terrified of maggot, if sam didn't know him or had never been there?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Who ever said Sam didn't know him? It certainly would be normal farmer behaviour for him to bring his goods to populated centers (like Hobbiton) to sell them. Sam could have met Maggot on any number of occassions. Why would Frodo talk to Sam about him? Because they are passing through a field where Frodo spent his youth and it would be a natural thing to talk about.<P>I'm not saying there isn't mistakes in the film. Just that this isn't one of them.<P>Here's some mistakes.<P>* How in earth does Gandalf expect to ride to Isengard and back to Bree in the same amount of time as it would take Sam and Frodo to walk from Hobbiton to Bree?<P>* When Frodo asks Butterbur about the stranger in the corner at the Prancing Pony, Pippin can clearly be seen sitting opposite to Frodo even though he has left to get himself a pint at the bar.<P>* Boromir's arm alternates from being on Aragorn's shoulder and off again during his death scene as the cuts go from him to Aragorn.<P>* Pippin has his hands bound when the Rohirrim attack but they are unbound when he is almost trampled by the horse. After that shot they are bound again.<P>* Orthanc is not "north-east" at any stretch along the road from Amon Hen.<P>Mistakes happen. I have little problem with them, especially in movies a complex as these.<P>H.C. __________________ "Stir not the bitterness in the cup that I mixed myself. Have I not tasted it now many nights upon my tongue, foreboding that worse yet lay in the dregs." -Denethor

10-13-2003, 03:35 PM	#20
Orlando's Top Fangirl Guest Posts: n/a	Well, with Pippin's hands, being bound, you know he got his bonds cut. You see it in the sort of flashback thing when Aragorn is at the site of the attack. "Their bonds were cut" -Aragorn

10-13-2003, 04:52 PM	#21
The Only Real Estel Raffish Rapscallion Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Far from the 'Downs, it seems :-( Posts: 2,835	Orli'sTopFanGirl: That scene where Pipping cuts his 'bonds' happens <I>after</I> the bound-unbound-bound scene.

10-14-2003, 05:40 AM	#22
Essex Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Essex, England Posts: 886	What I meant re mistakes were PLOT errors, not silly mistakes (ie the pippin/merry one<BR>mentioned above).<P>Although the 'north east' was ridiculous,and Theoden's "300 Leagues from here" line, I believe, should have been 100 leagues or 300 miles maybe.<P>But yes, all of what you guys say above could be the reason for Sam 'knowing'. <BR>It's just that we are trying to explain away things that didn't happen in the book, <BR>but happened in the film, because they changed the plot!<P>My main bone of contention in these films is giving different characters the actions<BR>other characters did.<P>Funnily enough three of these changes happened in a couple of minutes by the wall<BR>of Moria. <BR>Frodo guesses the riddle on the door of Moria instead of Gandalf. <BR>Pippin throws the stone into the lake when it should have been Boromir. <BR>Legolas, Aragorn and Boromir save Frodo from the Watcher when it should have been Sam!<P>Again, you all will probably have some good reasons as to why these things happened in<BR>the film, but to me THIS IS NOT THE POINT. Why make excuses or try to think things up as to why these things happened in the film, when they did not happen in the book?<P>I just have to admit that Jackson has changed lots of the story but has still managed to make great films........

10-14-2003, 07:30 AM	#23
HCIsland Zombie Cannibal Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,000	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> What I meant re mistakes were PLOT errors <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>and<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Why make excuses or try to think things up as to why these things happened in the film, when they did not happen in the book? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'm sorry Essex, I'm still not sure what you are saying here. It seems like you are changing what you are talking about on the fly. First you said it was a mistake. Now it seems you are equating plot errors to changes from the book, as if the two were synonymous.<P>If you are saying that because this is a change from the book it is therefore an error, I have to contend with that.<P>If you are saying that since it is a change from the book and is therefore not worth discussion, I have to contend with that too. Films should have their own internal logic that is independent of any books they are based upon.<P>If you are simply making the observation that this is a change from the book, then I would have to agree with the observation, but that was not what you said in your original post in this thread.<P>H.C. __________________ "Stir not the bitterness in the cup that I mixed myself. Have I not tasted it now many nights upon my tongue, foreboding that worse yet lay in the dregs." -Denethor

10-14-2003, 10:09 AM	#24
Essex Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Essex, England Posts: 886	Let me clarify my opinions:<P>A mistake is Pippin sitting in a seat in the Pony when it should have been Merry.<P>A plot error is Sam knowing that they were in Maggot's field when he had never been that far in the Shire before.<P>A plot error is not whether the film is different to the book. What I mean is that the filmakers sometimes MADE plot errors (when they changed the story), but I know of no plot errors in the books.<P>For example, another plot error (I believe). <P>"Aragorn. This is Isildur's heir?" to paraprhase Boromir in the film version Council of Elrond. How on earth does he know this? In the book version, he is told that Aragorn is the heir of Isildur by Elrond, I believe. In the film ,he comes right out and says it without anyone telling him. <P>Book - no plot error<BR>Film - plot error

10-14-2003, 10:15 AM	#25
Essex Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Essex, England Posts: 886	To add to my last post, I .<B>have</B>confused the issue further by stating in a previous post:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> My main bone of contention in these films is giving different characters the actions other characters did.<P>Funnily enough three of these changes happened in a couple of minutes by the wall<BR>of Moria. <BR>Frodo guesses the riddle on the door of Moria instead of Gandalf. <BR>Pippin throws the stone into the lake when it should have been Boromir. <BR>Legolas, Aragorn and Boromir save Frodo from the Watcher when it should have been Sam!<BR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>These are not plot errors as you have correctly pointed out. I was going off on a tangent with this. These are just things that annoy me as the filmakers have changed things, in my opinion, for no particular reason.

10-14-2003, 02:18 PM	#26
HCIsland Zombie Cannibal Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,000	Thanks, Essex. Now I feel free to disagree with you, at least on the Sam knowing he was in Maggot's Field. <P>As for Boromir's comment, I agree with you on that one. I can't see how the name Aragorn son of Arathorn would mean anything to him. The moment works in the film though and allows a scene that could otherwise be fairly awkward to move ahead.<P>Editted to add: You know, about the Boromir comment, it does work within the logic of the film as there is nothing to suggest that Boromir doesn't know the name Aragorn, so it really can't be considered an error. <P>Then this fun thought occured to me. We know that Denethor knows of this "ranger from the north" and very possibly may have heard the name Aragorn. We also know that there is a scene between Denethor and Boromir before Boromir left for Rivendell in the EE Towers. Wouldn't it be wonderful if there is a line from Denethor like, "The wizard, Mithrandir, has a pupil, a man he claims to be the last in Isildur's line. His name is Aragorn. Be wary of both him and Mithrandir."<P>H.C.<p>[ October 14, 2003: Message edited by: HCIsland ] __________________ "Stir not the bitterness in the cup that I mixed myself. Have I not tasted it now many nights upon my tongue, foreboding that worse yet lay in the dregs." -Denethor

10-15-2003, 12:24 AM	#27
Kalimac Candle of the Marshes Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Flyover Country Posts: 780	I agree about the Sam thing being a flub, in the sense that the filmmakers forgot their dialogue continuity, but don't think it's that big a deal. After all, it can be pretty easily explained, as everyone here has demonstrated . Besides, I think of Maggot as a famous local character who probably visited Hobbiton a fair number of times and was much talked of in the Green Dragon. Sam's probably heard of M & P's crop-stealing predilection before. It could work.<P>About the "Isildur's Heir" lane, there doesn't seem to be so much of a logic leap there. If I remember correctly, Legolas says "He is Aragorn, son of Arathorn. You owe him your allegiance." Even if Boromir had never heard either of those names before (and we don't know that he hasn't) the bit about owing allegiance would narrow the possibilities down a lot. To whom else would Boromir owe allegiance except the Heir of Isildur? The House of the Stewards is probably the highest non-elven house ever mentioned in the books; even Gandalf points out that although Denethor is not technically a king, he's still more powerful than Theoden, who is one. Just my $0.02. __________________ Father, dear Father, if you see fit, We'll send my love to college for one year yet Tie blue ribbons all about his head, To let the ladies know that he's married.