Nazgul, Ringwraiths relationship - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

12-22-2003, 07:06 PM

My brother and I are in a heated argument over the relationship between Nazgul and Ringwraiths.

He says the Nazgul are the winged creatures that the Ringwraiths ride.

I say the Nazgul and the Ringwraiths are one in the same (which seems to be supported everywhere I look here on the net).

I think one reason he thinks this is due to this quote from ROTK; Book V; Chap 1, Minas Tirith (page 25 in my book):
"Pippen did not answer. He looked at the grat walls, and the towers and brave banners, and the sun in the high sky, and then at the gathering gloom in the East; and he thought of the long fingers of that Shadow: of the orcs in the woods and the mountains, the treason of Isengard, the birds of evil eye, and the Black Riders even in the lanes of the Shire-and of the winged teror, the Nazgul."

Here is does sort of seem that the Black Riders and the Nazgul are different persons.

I found some other references to the Nazgul to aid me in my argument (Most noteably, ones in FOTR, fefore the winged beasts were mentioned), but they are not necessarily 100% convincing.

I need some proof that the Nazgul and the Ringwraiths are indeed one in the same.

Thanks

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 8:07 PM December 22, 2003: Message edited by: neo_geo ]

Elrond of Rivendell · 12-22-2003, 07:17 PM

There will soon come more posts, but I definitely agree with your opinion: Ringwraith=Nazgul. The term Nazgul is actually derived from the word Nazg that can also be found in the ring's inscription. (Nazg means ring in the Black Speech). The extract of LotR you were quotating simply means IMHO the following: When the 4 Hobbits first encountered the Nazgul in the Shire, they knew nothing about them, so they were only black riders. It was only afterwards that the hobbits learned the term "Nazgul", that's why in retrospective, Pippin still keeps to that difference in nomenclature.
Greetings
EfR
Added: I remember reading some details about this in The Silmarillion, Of the Rings of Power section. There you will probably to be able to find the word Nazgul a dozend times without a mention of the flying steed.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 8:20 PM December 22, 2003: Message edited by: Elrond of Rivendell ]

**The Saucepan Man** · 12-22-2003, 07:30 PM

Indeed, they are one and the same. "Nazgul" means "Ring-wraith" in the Black Speech. Nazgul are Ringwraiths whether with or without their fell beasts (which is, I believe the only name given to their winged mounts).

After all, the Witch-King is referred to as the Lord of the Nazgul. And I don't see him as being a fell beast. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

In LotR, it seems that the Ringwraiths come to be referred to as the Nazgul (as opposed to Black Riders) after they have taken to the skies on their fell beasts. Which, I believe, accounts for the reference to one of the Nazgul as a "winged terror". The Nazgul is winged in the sense that it is riding a creature with wings.

Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar · 12-22-2003, 07:35 PM

Nazgul=Nazg-ul=ringwraith (sort of)

Nazgul are the ringwraiths.

Their steeds in the air are 'fell beasts'.

Nuff said.

And why is this topic in the book section? I would think it goes in the N+N section.

12-22-2003, 07:40 PM

Quote:

After all, the Witch-King is referred to as the Lord of the Nazgul

I think part of his argument is that Lord of the Nazgul could refer to the Ringwraith being Lord of the winged beasts.

Silly, I agree, but I am looking for some definitive proof.

**The Saucepan Man** · 12-22-2003, 07:46 PM

Quote:

I am looking for some definitive proof.

Quote:

"Nazgul" means "Ring-wraith" in the Black Speech.

[img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Finwe · 12-22-2003, 09:03 PM

"Nazgul" = "Ringwraiths"

"Nazg-" = Ring (ex. Ash nazg durbatuluk...)

"Ul-" = Wraith(s) (ex. "Ulairi" = "Ringwraiths" in Quenya; Sauron heavily borrowed, and corrupted, elements from other languages, when he created the Black Speech)

Lord of Angmar · 12-22-2003, 09:35 PM

Encyclopedia of Arda: Nazgul

This should put any argument to rest, provided you trust the Encyclopedia of Arda as a reliable source. I personally do. Obviously, this is not really debatable.

[EDIT]: The link I provided is not a direct link to the 'Nazgul' entry of the Encyclopedia. You have to look it up yourselves since the site URL never changes.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 10:37 PM December 22, 2003: Message edited by: Lord of Angmar ]

12-22-2003, 07:06 PM	#1
neo_geo Guest Posts: n/a	Nazgul, Ringwraiths relationship My brother and I are in a heated argument over the relationship between Nazgul and Ringwraiths. He says the Nazgul are the winged creatures that the Ringwraiths ride. I say the Nazgul and the Ringwraiths are one in the same (which seems to be supported everywhere I look here on the net). I think one reason he thinks this is due to this quote from ROTK; Book V; Chap 1, Minas Tirith (page 25 in my book): "Pippen did not answer. He looked at the grat walls, and the towers and brave banners, and the sun in the high sky, and then at the gathering gloom in the East; and he thought of the long fingers of that Shadow: of the orcs in the woods and the mountains, the treason of Isengard, the birds of evil eye, and the Black Riders even in the lanes of the Shire-and of the winged teror, the Nazgul." Here is does sort of seem that the Black Riders and the Nazgul are different persons. I found some other references to the Nazgul to aid me in my argument (Most noteably, ones in FOTR, fefore the winged beasts were mentioned), but they are not necessarily 100% convincing. I need some proof that the Nazgul and the Ringwraiths are indeed one in the same. Thanks <font size=1 color=339966>[ 8:07 PM December 22, 2003: Message edited by: neo_geo ]

12-22-2003, 07:30 PM	#3
The Saucepan Man Corpus Cacophonous Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 8,390	Indeed, they are one and the same. "Nazgul" means "Ring-wraith" in the Black Speech. Nazgul are Ringwraiths whether with or without their fell beasts (which is, I believe the only name given to their winged mounts). After all, the Witch-King is referred to as the Lord of the Nazgul. And I don't see him as being a fell beast. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] In LotR, it seems that the Ringwraiths come to be referred to as the Nazgul (as opposed to Black Riders) after they have taken to the skies on their fell beasts. Which, I believe, accounts for the reference to one of the Nazgul as a "winged terror". The Nazgul is winged in the sense that it is riding a creature with wings. __________________ Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!

12-22-2003, 07:35 PM	#4
Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar Wight Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Somewhere, wandering in middle earth... Posts: 137	Nazgul=Nazg-ul=ringwraith (sort of) Nazgul are the ringwraiths. Their steeds in the air are 'fell beasts'. Nuff said. And why is this topic in the book section? I would think it goes in the N+N section. __________________ Turin Turambar, Master of Fate, by Fate Mastered. No, im not turin. Or tuor. Or anyone. I am not!

12-22-2003, 09:03 PM	#7
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	"Nazgul" = "Ringwraiths" "Nazg-" = Ring (ex. Ash nazg durbatuluk...) "Ul-" = Wraith(s) (ex. "Ulairi" = "Ringwraiths" in Quenya; Sauron heavily borrowed, and corrupted, elements from other languages, when he created the Black Speech) __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

12-22-2003, 09:35 PM	#8
Lord of Angmar Tyrannus Incorporalis Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: the North Posts: 833	Encyclopedia of Arda: Nazgul This should put any argument to rest, provided you trust the Encyclopedia of Arda as a reliable source. I personally do. Obviously, this is not really debatable. [EDIT]: The link I provided is not a direct link to the 'Nazgul' entry of the Encyclopedia. You have to look it up yourselves since the site URL never changes. <font size=1 color=339966>[ 10:37 PM December 22, 2003: Message edited by: Lord of Angmar ] __________________ ...where the instrument of intelligence is added to brute power and evil will, mankind is powerless in its own defence.

12-22-2003, 07:17 PM	#2
Elrond of Rivendell Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 261	There will soon come more posts, but I definitely agree with your opinion: Ringwraith=Nazgul. The term Nazgul is actually derived from the word Nazg that can also be found in the ring's inscription. (Nazg means ring in the Black Speech). The extract of LotR you were quotating simply means IMHO the following: When the 4 Hobbits first encountered the Nazgul in the Shire, they knew nothing about them, so they were only black riders. It was only afterwards that the hobbits learned the term "Nazgul", that's why in retrospective, Pippin still keeps to that difference in nomenclature. Greetings EfR Added: I remember reading some details about this in The Silmarillion, Of the Rings of Power section. There you will probably to be able to find the word Nazgul a dozend times without a mention of the flying steed. <font size=1 color=339966>[ 8:20 PM December 22, 2003: Message edited by: Elrond of Rivendell ]