Only three for Path's of the Dead?

[Silmiel of Imladris]

If you have the new TTT DVD it is most likely you watched the behind the scenes look at ROTK. Well you must of noticed that they showed a clip of the entrance of the Path's of the Dead and the only ones there are Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli. No Dundain or sons of Elrond. Well that is just dumb. Are the Dundain going to be cut out completely? <P>Another thing... In this behind the scenes look they talk about how Sauron thinks that Pippen has the ring. I am pretty sure that was not in the book. Frodo clearly showed the ring to the Nazgul in TTT so where on earth did they get the idea it was Pippen? Darn PJ! Hasn't he messed with the plot enough?

[HCIsland]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Are the Dundain going to be cut out completely? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, but many of us figured that quite some time ago.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Another thing... In this behind the scenes look they talk about how Sauron thinks that Pippen has the ring. I am pretty sure that was not in the book.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Sauron knew Saruman's orcs were taking two hobbits to Isengard. Grishnakh guessed they carried the Ring and I would assume Sauron would have guessed that too. He then gets to talk to Pippin through the Palantir. I think the implication in the book was that Sauron thought Pippin the Ringbearer, though it wasn't expressed explicitly.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Frodo clearly showed the ring to the Nazgul in TTT so where on earth did they get the idea it was Pippen? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That thought occured to me as well. In fact I thought it would be a fairly efficient way to explain why The Witch King was hastening forces to Minas Tirith (the logical next place Frodo would have gone from Sauron's perspective). Now I'm not sure what to think. I'll have to wait for the film.<P>Having Gandalf think that Sauron thinks Pippin is the Ringbearer is not a problem. That is consistent with the information he possesses, so there is nothing in the preview that could be considered a plot hole. Whether Sauron believes the Ringbearer to be in the hands of Faramir or in the hands of Gandalf really doesn't matter from his perspective. Both paths lead to Minas Tirith.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Darn PJ! Hasn't he messed with the plot enough?<BR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Why don't we judge something after we've seen it, hmm?<P>H.C.<p>[ August 26, 2003: Message edited by: HCIsland ]

[Diamond18]

In the book Frodo does not show the ring to the Nazgûl. And if RotK the movie has inconsistencies with TTT the movie because of that, it goes as another reason why it was inadvisable to deviate that way in TTT. But I'd rather have that continuity error between the two movies than him making even more changes just to keep up with previous ones.<P>That said, about Pippin possibly having the Ring:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Pippin: "But he said 'Wait a moment! We shall meet again soon. Tell Saruman that this dainty is not for him. I will send for it at once. Do you understand? Say just that.'" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Later when Aragorn shows himself to Sauron in the Palantír, it makes Sauron suspect that Aragorn may have the Ring, but as Gandalf says, "He is not yet sure". So that does necessarily rule out the possiblity that at the time Pippin looked into the Palantír, Sauron suspected that Saruman had found the Ring-bearer. "Dainty" and "It" could refer to Pippin himself, as something to torment information out of, but it seemed to me that Sauron was speaking of the Ring, hoping that Pippin did have it.<P>I would be surprised to see the Dunédain, simply because there hasn't been any indication so far that they will be in the movie at all, and rumors of their demise have been circulating since last year, at least.<P>Edit: Well, HC posted before me, so I wasted my time saying all that. <p>[ August 26, 2003: Message edited by: Diamond18 ]

[Maeglanthirion]

Yeah, I noticed about the Paths of the Dead. I was wondering, "Where the heck is everybody else?" That definately surprised me. About Pippen, i didn't remember anything either, but my mom did. But you shouldn't get mad at PJ like that. In that same preview, what they showed about Pelennor Fields look absolutely incredible. I can't wait.

[Kaiserin]

I don't have my books with me right now, but perhaps someone can assist me... wasn't there a part where Merry and Pippin were speaking to the orcs that captured them, and Pippin feigns having the ring - he even made <I>gollum</I> sounds with his throat.

[mollecon]

There certainly was, Kaiserin. Pippin & Merry tricks an orc into thinking they have the ring the way you described. He then takes both (one hobbit under each arm!) & runs away from the rest of the orcs with them. But he gets killed, & suddenly Merry & Pippin find themselves away from the orcs & in relative security when the Rohan riders make their attack - that's how it happens in the books.<P>I think, returning to the subject of this thread, that the key is that Sauron isn't sure where the ring might be. He does know that at least until recently it was possesed by a hobbit...

[nPiLL]

Hmm I havnt watched it yet but good point, im guessing the reason they cut scenes was to either shorten the movie or keep the non-LotR fans interested. Im guessing that in the scene that only shows Legolas, Gimli and Aragorn is shortened and leaves out some other characters is because it would confuse the people who havnt read the book. Its all about the money. lol

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

So it will just be Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli along with the Dead Army?<P>Why?

[HCIsland]

It seems to me they will be really using the Paths of the Dead as the moment when Aragorn siezes his roll as King and becomes the Aragorn we're more used to from the book. Aragorn emerges from the paths with all doubts removed. Crawling through long, dark tunnels and emerging reborn on the other side is a very common metephor and it doesn't take a psychologist to figure out why it continues to work.<P>As for the why, this is part of the explanation but the bigger part is that these movies are already stuffed with characters and PJ has shown that if he can tell the story just as effectively without them, they go. Just ask Fatty Bodger, Bombadil, Bill Ferney, Glorfindel, etc. This is going to sound harsh, but Halbarad and Elrond's sons simply aren't needed. They work great in a 1000 plus page novel but in a film (even three, three hour films) they are simply too much detail.<P>H.C.<p>[ August 27, 2003: Message edited by: HCIsland ]

[The Only Real Estel]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Why don't we judge something after we've seen it, hmm?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I can do that HC, but for Silmiel might've been refurring back to TTT with Faramir as well, although I can't be sure.

[Elentári]

I've somehow managed to miss all these rumours, although for some reason it does not surprise me...<BR>About thoes tunnels and emerging reborn...you say it doesn't take a psychologist to work out why it always works...but I don't understand why or how it would work, so perhaps you could explain to me? <BR>And I don't understand all this thing about Aragorn having doubts. When I read the book I was always under the impression that he never had any doubts at all, and in fact it was his strength of will that carried them all through (especially on the Paths of the Dead). Have I got confused? Is he not like that at all?

[HCIsland]

Sorry, I guess I was being a little vage. It has to do with our method of birth and the female anatomy. I'll leave it at that. Now, shall we talk about cigars. <P>As for Aragorn, no he's not like that in the book. It's a change.<P>H.C.

[Arwen Evenstar the Fair]

Whoa, like that is soooooo stupid if they cut the Dundain, I mean OMG its so not hard to do that, of all the things to cut they had to chose something easy. The Dundain are important, its not as interesting if they are not there!! They show that there is still strength left in men, I mean The Paths of the Dead hello!!! Otherwise it looks like Aragorn is super, super, super human if ya know what I mean.

[mollecon]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>As for Aragorn, no he's not like that in the book. It's a change.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Yes, & for the better. In the books, Aragorn is more like a person from the old Icelandic sagas. A one-dimensional hero. In the movies, he's closer to a real person, with doubts & fears, & IMO, more interesting. I think he would have been unbearable as the book character through 3 movies...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Otherwise it looks like Aragorn is super, super, super human if ya know what I mean.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>No it don't! Cos as I stated above, Aragorn is portrayed <I>as a human</I> in the movies. It makes perfect sense to have him come to terms with his fate in the beginning of the next movie, as he, Legolas & Gimli walks this dark path. And, putting it bluntly, the Dunedain are not necessary in the narrative perspective of the movies. The strenght in men is already being shown by both the people of Rohan & the people of Gondor - still fighting the dark lord, despite the bad odds.

[HCIsland]

I'm not sure why, but this year I've really enjoyed trying to guess how the material will be presented. Maybe part of it is so that the changes don't throw me for a loop.<P>To that end, last spring I began to put together a synopsis of each of the chapters of the book and how they are dealt with in the movies, extending that into predictions for the film yet to be released. I've posted it before somewhere and have been trying to keep it up to date just so I have all this stuff in one place.<P><A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/hcisland/tolkien.htm" TARGET=_blank>Adapting the Books</A><P>It's colour coded for each movie. Just scroll down until it turns blue for Return of the King.<P>H.C.

[Scott]

One thing that I'm wondering is if the Dunedain aren't in the paths of the dead stuff, will they be around to give Aragorn the sceptre from Rivendell after Helm's Deep? I think that it is possible that they do come, just not on the journey through the path. One other intersting thing I was pondering though was Arwen giving the sceptre to Aragorn herself. We saw her leave Rivendell, and you knw PJ isn't gutsy enough to send her to Valannor. She could just turn back at the Grey Havens too though. Audiences today just love last minute drama.

[Elentári]

Ok, I understand about the tunnels now...lol.<BR>I wonder how terrifying the Paths of the Dead will be made? In the book only Gimli was afraid...but now it looks as though Aragorn will be joining him. Poor Legolas, having to comfort them both! But as long as Legolas isn't portrayed as being terrified too...

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

HcIsland, I'm just now reading your predictions on the coming adaptations for The Return of the King. This is excellent, thank you. <P>Would you care to join me in December for the third annual 'Second-guessing Peter Jackson'? It's a sort of post-mortem on the movies - 'if I were Peter Jackson and had <I>exactly</I> that amount of run-time and a similar budget, what would I have done differently?' You seem the sort who likes to speculate. <P><A HREF="http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=000324" TARGET=_blank>Second-guessing Peter Jackson</A>.<P>I found the topic works best if it isn't used to vent (and such is discouraged) but instead encourages creativity on your part.<P>-Maril<p>[ August 28, 2003: Message edited by: Marileangorifurnimaluim ]

[HCIsland]

Thank you, it sounds like fun.<P>H.C.

[Arwen Evenstar the Fair]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I wonder how terrifying the Paths of the Dead will be made? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well all I have to say is that the Paths of the Dead better be extremely terrifying becuase they are suppossed to be, even Aragorn does not "want" to go that way. The way they described it in the book was extremely scary, but when I saw the preview for ROTK on the DVD and they showed quite a few clips of the Paths of the Dead, it didn't seem that freaky at all, it didn't send chills up my back or anything like I had hoped. Besides it wasn't dark enough. I really hope PJ didn't mess it up.<P>[ August 28, 2003: Message edited by: Arwen Evenstar the Fair ]<p>[ August 28, 2003: Message edited by: Arwen Evenstar the Fair ]

[The Saucepan Man]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> As for the why, this is part of the explanation but the bigger part is that these movies are already stuffed with characters and PJ has shown that if he can tell the story just as effectively without them, they go. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I agree that it was sensible to leave out characters like Fatty Bolger and Tom Bombadil, who don't advance the story as portrayed in the films. But I don't hold with leaving out the Dunedain on the same basis. Including them would help to flesh out Aragorn's history, which seems to me to be very relevant to his personal journey, one of the central themes in this film (it is called Return of the King, after all).<P>And there aren't too many extra characters in RotK to confuse your average film-goer. TTT was able to accomodate a fair number of "background" characters from the books, such as Hama, Gamling and Mablung. I would see Halbarad (together with Beregond and, possibly, Prince Imrahil) as falling in the same category.<P>Also, the presence of Halbarad and the Dunedain, in addition to lending substance to Aragorn's story, would greatly enhance the scenes in the Paths of the Dead and at Umbar (assuming that's in), which might otherwise seem slightly underwhelming.<P>And, in light of <A HREF="http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=002284" TARGET=_blank>this possible sighting of Halbarad</A>, I remain hopeful. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> and they showed quite a few clips of the Paths of the Dead, it didn't seem that freaky at all, it didn't send chills up my back or anything like I had hoped. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, we're unlikely to see the Oathbreakers themselves until the film's release (or possibly shortly before).

[Silmiel of Imladris]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I can do that HC, but for Silmiel might've been refurring back to TTT with Faramir as well, although I can't be sure. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Whoa guys you have me all wrong! I am just ticked at PJ because Elladan and Elrohir got cut out. I just was hoping for some one (other than Eowyn) to take to focus off of Arwen for once. <P>But here is my question. ??? If there is no Elladan and Elrohir how does Aragorn remember the Pathes of the Dead? It wouldn't seem right if he just remembered them by himself. I wonder if Gandalf suggests it before he goes to Gondor or maybe Elrond gives him the message telepathiclly (Even I am doubting that one. ) It is just strange that everyone else got cut out for then Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli will be leading an army made up of only dead people. I am pretty sure we can expect more comic relief from Gimli on this situtation.

[Birdland]

I can live with P.J. cutting the Dunedain, but another thing I noticed in the brief clip on the DVD - no horsies! Aragorn enters the Paths of the Dead on foot, and no one is leading horses that I could tell. <P>I was really looking forward to seeing P.J.'s version of a ghostly cavalry, but I guess it will just be a spectral infantry...<I>unless</I> Aragorn leaps aboard a ghostly horsie! Now THAT would be cool!<p>[ September 01, 2003: Message edited by: Birdland ]

[HCIsland]

My money is on Gandalf reminding Aragorn of the Paths of the Dead. <P>As for an army other than all the dead people, there's still the forces of southern Gondor. They're not all at Minas Tirith. Aragorn and the Dead could arrive at Pelargir with men of Gondor already engaged with the Corsairs but losing. Aragorn and the Dead turn the course of the battle and it is men of Gondor that sail the ships up the Anduin. The Dead may even leave at this point as they did in the book.<P>H.C.<P>Editted to add: Another distinct possibility is that it is Arwen that reminds Aragorn of the Paths of the Dead. You can be pretty sure she wasn't leaving for Grey Havens in Two Towers and I would put pretty good money she's got a reforged Narsil under that cloak.<P>H.C.<p>[ September 02, 2003: Message edited by: HCIsland ]

[Silmiel of Imladris]

That is a pretty good idea about Arwen. In TTT it seemed more logical that she was going to Lothlorien to stay with Galadriel.

[Elentári]

Yeah, that is a good idea. I had actually thought Arwen was leaving Middle Earth! Oh well....

[Pookabunny]

The Pipin-ring argument: Sauron sees Pipin in the Palantir and thinks that he has the ring (based on what PJ said in the ROTK thing). True, the Ringwraiths did see Frodo with the ring, but the saw him in their 'world' - the only way they can see is if the ringbearer is wearing the ring. Outside of that realm, they have very poor sight, which leads me to believe they can't really tell the difference between Frodo and Pippin. I'm sure they both look the same from the eyes of a 'nither living or dead' being

[Everdawn]

AHHH! NO ELLADAN! NO ELROHIR!!!! THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!!! ok ill calm down for just a slight second. I was <B>counting</B> desperatly on them being in the third film... For three years i held onto what small hope i have had of them being in there... but now... now it looks like Mr Jackson will leave them out after all. I was fine with PJ up till now... Elladan and Elrohir are my faves!...<P> <P><BR>Everdawn, first member of the "Where the hell are Elrond's sons?" movement

[Theoric Windcaller]

Thank you ICIsland. Guys, stop complaining on what PJ is doing to RotK. just watch the movie ok? If you don't like it than complain about it after you've watched, go ahead, send PJ a petition, I don't care, but it gets kind of annoying seeing nothing but these kind of posts on the boards nowadays. Stop looking up spoilers on the internet and just enjoy as a movie, not as a competitor to the book(s).

[Lyta_Underhill]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Another distinct possibility is that it is Arwen that reminds Aragorn of the Paths of the Dead. You can be pretty sure she wasn't leaving for Grey Havens in Two Towers and I would put pretty good money she's got a reforged Narsil under that cloak.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That sounds like a distinct possibility indeed, HC! I suppose she will also carry the standard she made for him? It would be visually impressive, anyway, and I can't see any other way to get it to him if the Dunedain and Elrond's sons are not to be coming along. That Arwen has to have a pretty big cloak! The Arwen moment I am most looking forward to (and have no idea if it will come off as I imagine, but have hopes for) is her offer of her place on the ship to the Blessed Land to Frodo at the end of his quest. It is an exchange of melancholy victories--Arwen with her bittersweet choice of mortality but also the choice of her love for Aragorn...and Frodo with his choice to leave the Shire and the Middle Earth he fought to save, only to lose it himself. No complaints here if it does not come off the way I imagine, but I very much hope it will!<P>Cheers,<BR>Lyta

[Silmiel of Imladris]

Theoric, these are not spoilers off the internet this is what I saw in the preview on TTT dvd.

[Elentári_O_Most_Mighty_1]

But still, I agree with Theoric to a certain extent. I'm sure I will be completely exhausted after I've seen RotK if there are too many changes, because I will have been arguing about them with my friends, and there will be topics on it on this forum. So I might as well build up my strength now, just in case...

[Linteamarthwen]

The dundain(sadly enough) must be cut out for the sack of the "Uneducated" audiance. To put teh other rangers would only confuse them and make them hate the movie even more than they already do. PJ had to make sacrifises...to bad they were so important to Tolkien lovers.

[HCIsland]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> The dundain(sadly enough) must be cut out for the sack of the "Uneducated" audiance. To put teh other rangers would only confuse them and make them hate the movie even more than they already do.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I hear what your saying, but is it really your experience that the "uneducated" (by that I assume you mean those that have not read the books) audience hate these films? Sure there are people that hate fantasy films and there are Star Wars and Matrix heads that seem to see this as some sort of war, but otherwise my experience has been that there are many non-book fans that absolutely love these films and many of them are rushing out to buy the books now.<P>H.C.

[Balin999]

To give a possible answer to the original second question:<BR>The Nazgul saw Frodo with the ring in Osgiliath (thanks to our really cool movie-faramir (I guess sarcasm is dropping out of your computer right now)) <BR>so it is not too speculative to say that Sauron thought that Frodo/Pippin, I guess the Nazgul couldn't tell, was brought to Minas Tirith. That's what Sauron would have done or is expecting Faramir to do: To bring the ring to his father (or Aragorn, who is on his way to Gondor as he has seen in the Palantir) so that one of them can use it against Sauron. He would never think that the Hobbits would go to Mordor itself. <BR>So actually, PJ did a rather good attempt to explain why Sauron did not think that his ring went to Mordor. Or was that a co-incidence?

[Finwe]

I really think that we should stop complaining about what Peter Jackson is doing, and just look at the bright side of things. After all, look what Ralph Bakshi did! At least Peter's Elves aren't exposed three F-stops too bright! We do have to be optimistic about things.

[HCIsland]

... or are crosseyed. <P>H.C.

[Elentári_O_Most_Mighty_1]

I haven't seen the whole of the animated version, I gave up on it because it was so incredibly tedious. And Sam looked so weird I was put off. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> That sounds like a distinct possibility indeed, HC! I suppose she will also carry the standard she made for him? It would be visually impressive, anyway, and I can't see any other way to get it to him if the Dunedain and Elrond's sons are not to be coming along. That Arwen has to have a pretty big cloak! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I think that is probably out, now that the trailer is here. It seems that Elrond will have that job. I wonder if the standard will even be in the film??<P>About the Pippin-Frodo thing...even if the Nazgul cannot tell between them, he is surely going to know the difference between Osgiliath and Orthanc, is he not???

[Silmiel of Imladris]

By looking at the trailer I am assuming that Narsil will replace the standard. Aragorn didn't get Narsil in the FOTR as he was supposed to. Arwen saying, "It is time. Give him the sword of the King." Is what tipped me off. Like I said in another thread in the trailer Elrond gives Narsil to Aragorn but I think he refuses and Arwen sends it to him later.

[HCIsland]

I do think the standard will make it's way in somewhere. Perhaps Arwen won't play Betsy Ross, but the thing is the white banner is very prominantly featured when Boromir retakes Osgiliath in the EE Towers. I expect that if they have the white, they will be bringing in the black.<P>H.C.