Dead Marshes - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

12-20-2003, 01:33 PM

So this has been bothering me recently. So the dead marshes were an ancient battleground - forgive me, can't remember which battle at the moment.. - and I was just wondering.. Elves, men, and orcs in the marshes yes? Does Tolkien ever mention anywhere or make reference to whether or not Elves body's actually decay when they are killed? Or are the dead in the marshes just somehow preserved?

Just curious. *smiles*

Finwe · 12-20-2003, 02:08 PM

Since the bodies of Elves are, after all, bodies, I assume that they decay after death just as a Human body would. Even so, the bodies in the Dead Marshes are different, because their fëar, or spirits, have been trapped there by Sauron (I think).

Eöl · 12-20-2003, 02:13 PM

well, first of all, it's the battleground of The War of the Last Alliance.

As for elven bodies decaying, i don't remember where i read it but there seemed to be a case of an elf dying and his body disintegrated into light and travelled west(i think i read this, please confirm)

But i think that the corpses in the marches were indeed preserved by some foul magic for after all, the marshes are evil and lure you to your death.

Mahal · 12-20-2003, 03:53 PM

No I just think that only the bodies lie there, by foul magic as has been said, but the spirits go to the halls of Mandos.

Bill the Pony · 12-20-2003, 06:34 PM

"'But that is an age and more ago,' said Sam. 'The Dead can't be really there! Is it some devilry hatched in the Dark Land?'

'Who knows? Sméagol doesn't know,' answered Gollum. 'You cannot reach them, you cannot touch them. We tried once, yes, precious. I tried once; but you cannot reach them. Only shapes to see, perhaps, not to touch. No precuious! All dead.'" (p 614 Harper-Collins 1994 ed., also Houghton-Mifflin reprint with movie pics on covers)

This passage indicates that there are no bodies, only haints (to use old-timer speak) in the dead marshes.

Evisse the Blue · 12-21-2003, 11:15 AM

Quote:

As for elven bodies decaying, i don't remember where i read it but there seemed to be a case of an elf dying and his body disintegrated into light and travelled west

You mean, the body travelled west, after the elf died? I don't think that's correct. Only an elf's fea can go to the halls of Mandos, where in time, it can be reincarnated, that is, given a new hroa (body).

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 12:18 PM December 21, 2003: Message edited by: Evisse the Blue ]

Finwe · 12-21-2003, 12:15 PM

Quote:

As for elven bodies decaying, i don't remember where i read it but there seemed to be a case of an elf dying and his body disintegrated into light and travelled west

I believe you're talking about the body of Fëanor. His fëa was so fiery, that when he died (after getting his arse completely kicked black and blue by a bunch of Balrogs), his body disintegrated into ashes, and presumably blew away in the wind. His fëa still reached the Halls of Mandos, and it remains there until the End of Days, in atonement for its misdeeds (Rebellion against the Valar, Kinslaying at Alqualondë, betraying Fingolfin and the Burning at Losgar, etc.).

Kalimac · 12-21-2003, 01:38 PM

I'm pretty sure the dead aren't actually there - only haints, as Bill the Pony said [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. They can't be touched (and we can be sure that Gollum has tried hard) and tying them to the will o'the wisp is significant - it's something that you see, but which isn't actually there, and will lead you into peril.

Rumil · 12-23-2003, 06:10 PM

It seems fairly conclusive from the texts that the 'bodies' in the Dead Marshes were illusionary. However, it certainly is possible to preserve bodies in bogs, as various ancient corpses have been discovered to be very well preserved in these acidic, low-oxygen waters around northern Europe. They survive from the late iron age, so 2000+ years ago. The skin and flesh is turned into a leathery substance and organic artefacts such as clothes and wooden tools are found. In one case, the archaeologists even discovered the rope which had been used to strangle the poor victim, who was subsequently, somewhat callously perhaps, known as Pete Marsh!

12-23-2003, 07:00 PM

somewhere in the book it says that the souls of the dead ones are trapped in the marshes not necesarilly there bodies, so I agry that the bodies are only illusions.

12-20-2003, 01:33 PM	#1
Serinde Guest Posts: n/a	Dead Marshes So this has been bothering me recently. So the dead marshes were an ancient battleground - forgive me, can't remember which battle at the moment.. - and I was just wondering.. Elves, men, and orcs in the marshes yes? Does Tolkien ever mention anywhere or make reference to whether or not Elves body's actually decay when they are killed? Or are the dead in the marshes just somehow preserved? Just curious. smiles

12-20-2003, 02:08 PM	#2
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	Since the bodies of Elves are, after all, bodies, I assume that they decay after death just as a Human body would. Even so, the bodies in the Dead Marshes are different, because their fëar, or spirits, have been trapped there by Sauron (I think). __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

12-20-2003, 02:13 PM	#3
Eöl Animated Skeleton Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Nan Elmoth Posts: 35	well, first of all, it's the battleground of The War of the Last Alliance. As for elven bodies decaying, i don't remember where i read it but there seemed to be a case of an elf dying and his body disintegrated into light and travelled west(i think i read this, please confirm) But i think that the corpses in the marches were indeed preserved by some foul magic for after all, the marshes are evil and lure you to your death. __________________ '...though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again,from you and from me a new star shall arise' -Huor

12-20-2003, 03:53 PM	#4
Mahal Haunting Spirit Join Date: May 2003 Location: Paradox Realm Posts: 66	No I just think that only the bodies lie there, by foul magic as has been said, but the spirits go to the halls of Mandos. __________________ *A new technology does not add or substract something. It changes everything.*

12-21-2003, 01:38 PM	#8
Kalimac Candle of the Marshes Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Flyover Country Posts: 780	I'm pretty sure the dead aren't actually there - only haints, as Bill the Pony said [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. They can't be touched (and we can be sure that Gollum has tried hard) and tying them to the will o'the wisp is significant - it's something that you see, but which isn't actually there, and will lead you into peril. __________________ Father, dear Father, if you see fit, We'll send my love to college for one year yet Tie blue ribbons all about his head, To let the ladies know that he's married.

12-20-2003, 06:34 PM	#5
Bill the Pony Pile O'Bones Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 19	"'But that is an age and more ago,' said Sam. 'The Dead can't be really there! Is it some devilry hatched in the Dark Land?' 'Who knows? Sméagol doesn't know,' answered Gollum. 'You cannot reach them, you cannot touch them. We tried once, yes, precious. I tried once; but you cannot reach them. Only shapes to see, perhaps, not to touch. No precuious! All dead.'" (p 614 Harper-Collins 1994 ed., also Houghton-Mifflin reprint with movie pics on covers) This passage indicates that there are no bodies, only haints (to use old-timer speak) in the dead marshes.

12-23-2003, 06:10 PM	#9
Rumil Sage & Onions Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Britain Posts: 894	It seems fairly conclusive from the texts that the 'bodies' in the Dead Marshes were illusionary. However, it certainly is possible to preserve bodies in bogs, as various ancient corpses have been discovered to be very well preserved in these acidic, low-oxygen waters around northern Europe. They survive from the late iron age, so 2000+ years ago. The skin and flesh is turned into a leathery substance and organic artefacts such as clothes and wooden tools are found. In one case, the archaeologists even discovered the rope which had been used to strangle the poor victim, who was subsequently, somewhat callously perhaps, known as Pete Marsh! __________________ Rumil of Coedhirion

12-23-2003, 07:00 PM	#10
Wilwarin Bluemoon Guest Posts: n/a	somewhere in the book it says that the souls of the dead ones are trapped in the marshes not necesarilly there bodies, so I agry that the bodies are only illusions.