Gollums song revisited

[dunedain_aragorn]

I have always thought this, but I saw someone whos views contradict my own. The song "Gollum's Song"(#19) I thought refered to Gollum's good and bad side. (Or stinker and slinker as Sam so put) as Gollum always reffers to himself as we, so the "We are lost we can never go home" as Gollum cannot. Then Gollum's evil (pardon my bluntness) side speaks back with "These tears you cry, have come to late, you are lost, you can never go home." Then now I see that there is another point of view, that Gollum is speaking to Frodo. I see the logic in this, but I still like my reason. I want to know how others feel this song should go.

[eleanor_niphredil]

My first reaction was that it was Gollum speaking (or singin) to Frodo, but I think that it makes more sense for him to be talking with himself. It makes it...deeper somehow.<P>then again, it could be something totaly different that none of us have thought of...

[Nevtarmawen Greenleaf]

I think he probably is talking to himself(stinker-slinker),because if he was talking to Frodo, then it would mean that Frodo was telling Gollum those things and being kinda mean to him. Frodo was hardly ever being mean to Gollum in the movie, and if the song was written for the movie, then it wouldn't make much sense.(If you get what I mean).

[Maylin]

I think he's talking to Frodo, though talking to himself would make sense. Frodo wouldn't have had to hurt or blame Gollum for him to still think that. Gollum changes from "Nice master" and "Nice Hobbitses" to "cruel master" and " mean, fat hobbit" pretty fast. (looks at lyrics) just an idea: maybe he's singing/talking to Sam...

[eleanor_niphredil]

I'v just had a look at the lyrics, and I have changed my mind. He is talking to Frodo.<BR>When he says "take back the lies, the hurt, the blame", I think, rather than refering to the mean things Frodo has done, he means that unless Frodo can undo the hurt he has felt over the years, his tears are useless. Its to late for him.

[the mortal elf]

Hmm...highly controversial. But I definitely think that he is NOT talking to Sam. He says "you can never go home" and he didn't know Sam was going to be a ringbearer. Or, he could have meant, I'm gonna kill you, you stupid fat hobbit, and you're not going to go home . I personally think that he's talking to himself. The lies, hurt, blame part could have been from Gollum. He wasn't exactly very nice to Smeagol, even if he pretended to be sometimes (i.e. Smeagol, why does it cry?). And as has been said before, Frodo never was really cruel to Gollum, or at least not in my opinion.

[Daewen]

Hm...very interesting points. I'm listening to it right now actually...I don't know. I've always thought he was talking to Frodo...but maybe not...Gollum did sort of lie to Smeagol, making him think Frodo was against him and all...but then if it is gollum singing to himself, both sides are talking about crying and taking back hurt and blame, and Smeagol didn't do anything to Gollum....i think it's directed manly towards Frodo

[the mortal elf]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> and Smeagol didn't do anything to Gollum <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Didn't he? This is going to be very far fetched and complicated, but here goes:<P>When Frodo came along, Smeagol became his faithful 'pet'. If you look at the "Master looks after us now" part in his conversation, that's almost abandoning gollum for Frodo. That could be seen as hurt and blame by Gollum, because maybe he (stinker) doesn't entirely realize that what he's doing is wrong. His mind has been perverted by the ring since he was what? Still in his tweens? I hold to my opinion that he's talking to himself.

[eleanor_niphredil]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> That could be seen as hurt and blame by Gollum, because maybe he (stinker) doesn't entirely realize that what he's doing is wrong <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Judging from what I have seen so far, I dont really think that Gollum would be the sort of person to openly admitt to his feelings. And the hardest person to admitt things to is yourself.

[dunedain_aragorn]

I have a new reason that this is gollum talking to himself, listen to the first verse. that is what people say frodo is saying. but listen closely, the lyris go, and i quote,"No loyal friend, was ever there for me......" That CANNOT be Frodo. I could go on and on and list frodo's faithful friends. Little did I know I was opening a pandoras box of contraversy when I started this thread.

[FarathrimMaiden]

YeAH THE "no loyal friend" part rules out Frodo, but there are times he could be talking to frodo and i like to switch views about it. Like the entire song can defidently be gollum talking to smeagol/smeagol to gollum, but it could be Gollum talking about the ring at times (maybe not the loyal friend part, that part really changes things, i cant get around it), i mean the ring is what is lieing, blaming, hurting, the lost part too. <P>OOOh but then theres this part, and you will wait when you face the end alone, that always sorta sounds like smeagol to frodo to me.<P>Sad song, jeesee i could cry cuz of it

I really like that song!!! I think it's Gollum's split personality talking to each other, but then when it says, these tears you cried...he might be takling to Frodo. OR...it could mean that Gollum is talking to Smeagol and telling him he's too late and that Gollum's already taken back over....perhaps.

[Nieninque]

Perchance he's speaking/singing to all of them (Frodo, Sam & himself)... after all his mind is all over the place, being twisted by the Ring and all...

[eleanor_niphredil]

Nieninque- very deep. I said it would be someyhing entirly different.<BR> <BR>dunedain_aragorn- I dont think that it was meant to be Frodo singing. perhaps Gollum (Smeagol)is jelouse that frodo has sam.

[Diamond18]

All right, first of all, of course it isn't Frodo singing. That was never the issue. The issue is who Gollum/Sméagol is singing to.<P>I now put forth "Several definitive reasons why Gollum/Sméagol is singing to Frodo and no other" by yours truly:<P>1. Gollum is uber-evil, my friends, so he does not 'weep', 'cry' feel 'alone' or anything like that. All of these feelings mentioned are attributed to Sméagol and Frodo in the film. So it is not Sméagol singing to Gollum.<P>2. For the same reason, it is not Gollum singing to Sméagol. In the film the differences between Gollum and Sméagol are very over-emphasised. Gollum is bad, Sméagol is a tragic victim. That's their whole point. Gollum would not be saying things such as "Where once was light, darkness falls." Gollum hates the light.<P>3. At the end of the movie, Sméagol and Gollum are working together again. They're happy together, more or less. No complaints about lies, cruelty or betrayel on either side.<P>4. On the other hand, Sméagol felt <I>very</I> betrayed by Frodo at the Forbidden Pool. Whether you look at the book or the movie, this was a big deal to Gollum. He never did forgive Frodo for it completely. Frodo didn't mean to be cruel, but from Sméagol's viewpoint he was. So it makes perfect sense that Sméagol should say, "Now we say goodbye, we say you didn't try. These tears you cry, have come too late. Take back the lies, the hurt, the blame!"<P>Also, Frodo and Sam just had a Hobbit Bonding Powwow, and Frodo told Sam that "Frodo could never have made it without Sam." No, "Good Sméagol" for leading them through the Marshes, etc. I think that they left a lot of Frodo's praise for Sméagol out of the movie. "No loyal friend was ever there for me" is Sméagol's critisim of Frodo's appreciation of Sam and not him.<P>5. "And you will weep when you face the end alone. You are lost! You can never go home."<P>Gollum is gloating here. He's decided to betray Frodo. No more Mr. Nice Sméagol. He figures that Frodo wasn't grateful for everything he did, and now he's not going to help Frodo anymore.<P>Ta-da! That's why it has to be directed at Frodo.

[the mortal elf]

Okay, Diamond, you convinced me (and probably anyone else who read this thread). Very compelling argument. I guess I just didn't want to believe that Gollum was completely bad...stupid ring...

i believe that it is smeagol talking/singing to gollum about the ring and Frodo and about how much the ring is hurting them all and the fact that the ring ha done to frodo what it did to smeagol!<p>[ January 07, 2003: Message edited by: Donlammenion ]

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>"No loyal friend was ever there for me" is Sméagol's critisim of Frodo's appreciation of Sam and not him.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Or perhaps an expression of envy and self-pity. Of course Sméagol did have a friend once: perhaps not so staunch a companion as Sam, but a friend nonetheless, whom he murdered for the Ring. Gollum would never admit to himself, though, that his plight is of his own making. Even his split personality can be attributed to an unwillingness to contemplate his own actions. It could be argued that Stinker is created by Sméagol as a separate personality, who will accept responsibility for the worst of his deeds, leaving "poor Sméagol" with a clear conscience, at least in his own mind. This certainly seems true of the film incarnation, although in the books it seems much more as though Slinker and Stinker are a literary device, used to emphasise the inner debate that precedes Gollum's betrayal of Frodo and Sam.<p>[ January 07, 2003: Message edited by: Squatter of Amon Rudh ]

[Diamond18]

I agree with you, Squatter, and I didn't really mean anything different. I don't intend to say that Gollum's bitter insinuation was justified—Frodo was certainly good to him, and a better Master than Gollum really deserved. Anyone who bemoans not having any friends is engaging in nothing more than a pity-party, especially when one has murdered his/her closest friend. No, Gollum really doesn't have the right to say, "No loyal friend was ever there for me." If that's true, it's his fault alone.<P>Perhaps I should have said "Gollum is critizing Frodo and envying Sam for what he perceives as Frodo's appreciation of Sam and not him."<P>Who knew we could analyze the nuances of a movie characterization so much... <p>[ January 07, 2003: Message edited by: Diamond18 ]

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Duly noted. I ought to have known that you wouldn't be able to misinterpret such a simple song. <P>I think that the portrayal of Gollum is one of the places where the film was spot on. In my opinion it gets to the real meat of Gollum's personality; which gives us plenty to discuss. <P>Notwithstanding some horribly trite lines ("Go away and never come back"? Please), the "inner conversation" scene was excellent. It accords with my theory that Sméagol split into Slinker and Stinker the moment he murdered Déagol (or at least the moment he realised the enormity of the deed), and that the two personas moved further apart as the gestalt's behaviour became more and more depraved. The defining characteristic of Sméagol's character is that although he is utterly selfish and capable of the foulest deeds, he refuses to admit this to himself, requiring that he literally become somebody else when committing base acts. Possession of the Ring for so long can only have quickened this process, whilst prolonging it beyond its natural span (necessarily limited by Sméagol's lifespan), until by the time of <I>The Two Towers</I> his actions are so debased that the only way to maintain his innocence is to have Gollum supplant Sméagol as the dominant personality. After a brief period in which the "innocent" Sméagol/Slinker persona fights for control, the apparent betrayal in Ithilien tips the balance back in favour of Stinker/Gollum. <P>I take this as a stark warning of the more extreme results of self-deception. We should always be honest with ourselves, and Gollum is a perfect example of what can happen to those who are not.<p>[ January 08, 2003: Message edited by: Squatter of Amon Rudh ]

[Sapphire_Flame]

This is an absolutely fascinating thread. I'm not quite sure what to think about that song, but, maybe, it's an outside observer (it's sure what I was thinking about ). Or maybe it's all the things previously mentioned, Gollum to Smeagol, Smeagol to Gollum, *and* Gollum/Smeagol (both) to Frodo. Depends on what verse you're looking at. My friend thinks it's Gollum and Smeagol talking back and forth. Just my two cents.

[Jack]

I love that song!! I can even play it on the paino!! I think it was Gollum telling himself (or his questonably good side) that it is to late for him to be good and there is no one left who cares!! But thats just me...

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

I haven't ever thought this so much but I imagined Gollum/Sméagol singing to someone like Faramir. Or he can just be singing the song without any special listener.