Second-guessing Peter Jackson: The Two Towers - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Marileangorifurnimaluim · 12-23-2002, 02:04 AM

Well, there is more to work with this year, isn't there?Add your changes to The Two Towers Here. Remember the rules: you have the same budget as PJ, but also the same run-time constraints (sorry, no 'I'll keep everything the same as in the books' allowed). The movie has to be comprehensible to an audience that has never heard of Tolkien. Please keep your suggestions constructive. This isn't intended to be a critique (or sarcastic slam) of the movie. There are several threads for that. <UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI> We shall keep the beginning shall we? Let's add the collapsing of the endless stair, close-ups of inlay, a work of surpassing beauty; fire; blood; collapsing under Gandalf as he barely escapes. His face as he turns to face his enemy on the mountaintop. The scene cuts away, before we know what happens. <LI> The chase is excellent. <LI> We need a sense of real danger for Merry and Pippin in the crossing of Rohan. M&P are forced to run with the Uruk-hai whips at their heels. Merry collapses and you see him nearly overrun by the orcs. The company of orcs runs on a bit, like they're going to leave him for dead. Pippin looks back. Then a commander notices, roars, and Merry is hauled up painfully by one arm, unconscious (the way a child picks up a doll, carelessly). You see the cut on Merry's forehead. Camera on Pippin's fear (this is shown from his perspective), then Pippin is shoved forward, forced to run, clearly exhausted. He loses sight of Merry between the orcs' legs. <LI> Cuts to their three pursuers. <LI> back to the orcs, Pippin collapses. You see him hauled up, blinking. Camera is smashed right into the dirty, bug-infested hairy neck of the orc. Black out. <LI> The Gollum/Sam/Frodo... god, there's so much to be done. The entire interaction needs to shift to character development. Not just developing Gollum as a sympathetic character, but we need to take the opportunity to do some very important Frodo character development. We need to see Frodo's attitude towards his Quest change (through conversations with Sam and Faramir), his growing acceptance and determination. We need to establish his hate/fear towards Gollum, then watch it change to pity. Frodo needs to show some strength, threaten Gollum into promising as he does in the book. We need the 'I do pity him.' But when Sam tells him not to trust Gollum, he should say 'of course not!' and agree Gollum be tied up. I will get back to this section. It's late and I'm tired, and this is the most important change. It sets up Frodo's courage in Mordor. <LI> The Dead Marshes need to happen at night. It doesn't work during daylight. <LI> Leave in the additional scenes with Wormtongue, and the Eowyn/Aragorn interaction. Excellent. <LI> Remove entire subplot of Aragorn going over the cliff, et al. Arwen scenes can be edited in on the battlements of Helm's Deep, Aragorn as a soldier thinking about what he could lose if he dies. <LI> We need to indicate the treachery of Saruman to Sauron, Isengard/Mordor orcs fight over Pippin and Merry. (Replaces the 'Hobbit as food' scene.) 'They go to Mordor!' 'They go to Saruman!' Saruman's treachery and double dealing is not too complicated for the audience. And if they don't get it, they will at least see the orcs don't really get along. <LI> Instead of Elves arriving to help at Helm's Deep, it's the Dunedain, many rangers. It makes more sense that Aragorn's extended family shows up. 'Theoden King... a company of... rangers... have come. Shall we let them past our defenses?' Shows the distrust of the times, and echoes Butterbur's 'one of them rangers' comment. (Great visual image, too, all those scruffy seasoned rangers moving professionally between Theoden's suspicious but admiring green troups.) With some elves 'Our father couldn't keep us away!' Big hugs. Indication that the elves supported men individually, not as a public gesture of support. Echoes Arwen's individual choice. <LI> Remove Haldir from Helm's Deep. No prior indication the elves would help. Plus the death of Haldir doesn't add anything, he's not established enough as a character to have real impact. It feels gratuitous. Showing the little kid getting armored up was impactful. More shots of kids on the battlements, looking scared as the orcs approach, now that would work. <LI> Build fear of coming orcs, closer shots of their marching on Helm's Deep. Chilling, to see orcs marching in order. <LI> Treebeard complains of orcs cutting down trees as he walks with Merry and Pippin, during the 'no one is on my side.' Merry and Pippin tell him Saruman is a traitor. Treebeard is surprised. And angry. Calls Entmoot as a result. During Entmoot, you hear the word 'Saruman' and the Ents fall suddenly silent. Merry and Pippin turn to each other. They heard that part. Merry and Pippin are brought forward, told to tell what they know of Saruman's treachery. They fumble with what they know, they get it sort of confused, but it's enough. The trees make low, angry rumbling sounds. <LI> Helm's Deep: we need confusion, mayhem. Not knowing where Gimli is as the defense crumbles. Needing to ask where the king is. Turning corners, and suddenly finding orcs where you don't expect them - in the castle. The orcs are just as confused and split up. Bodies in the halls, orcs and men. Trip hazard.Aragorn 'Legolas. Where is Gimli?' Legolas 'I thought he was with you.' Another soldier, 'I saw him last on the wall.' Aragorn 'Where is the king?' Soldier 1 'I'm not sure.' Soldier 2 'We have him well defended. Deep within the Keep.' Aragorn 'You mean trapped.' Goes to find the king. <LI> The king needs to be a better soldier. Aragorn suggests the sortie, a calvary charge, follows Theoden around the corner - only to see the horses all ready. 'I have your horse saddled, if you care to join us.' Smile from Theoden. <LI> Remove Osgiliath scene in its entirety. People were confused where Frodo was, it wasn't particularly scary as the audience all knew Faramir wouldn't take the ring (and if it were a danger, it was repetitive of Boromir anyway). It just didn't work. It also required commanders at Osgiliath that were not introduced as characters but had important lines. And it required that odd narration from Galadriel in the middle of the movie to 'explain' it. We can get rid of that, and use Faramir for character development instead, a replacement for Gandalf and Galadriel for Frodo to confide in. Gandalf gives him moral guidance. Galadriel insists on Frodo having a backbone - you are alone. And Faramir treats Frodo as an equal, a leader (with a following of two). Cuts Frodo's self-pity, gives him an example of soldiering on regardless. <LI> Replace tension from Faramir maybe taking the ring with tension of Frodo nearly getting caught outside Mordor by Nazgul at Minas Morgul. <LI> Remove long Sean Astin soliloquoy and Andy Serkis soliloquoy. </UL>Okay, that's a start. I'll get back with more detail on Frodo/Sam/Gollum character development, and Faramir/Frodo character development.

Manwe Sulimo · 12-23-2002, 12:33 PM

Pretty good ideas, especially the Faramir changes and emphasis on Merry and Pippin. There should be less Gimli comedy (which shouldn't be too hard, since he'll be "lost" at Helm's Deep). However, Sam and Sméagol's speeches at the end shouldn't be removed. They are both a great way to end the story of TTT and set up the story of RotK...and it gives something for the non-Tolkienite audience to mull over for the next year ("yes, we'll let her kill them....").

Orual · 12-23-2002, 06:51 PM

One word, Maril: Yes. Definitely more Merry and Pippin, less Gimli the Comedian, less Faramir the Would-Be Ringbearer. For sure, the Merry/Pippin/Treebeard scenes wouldn't be the focus of the film, but I think that it was severely underplayed. (The more of Billy Boyd's accent, the better.)Additional changes:<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>More of Frodo making decisions, fewer close-ups of his tormented face. Frodo takes charge of the Quest in TT; make it show. <LI>Don't have Frodo attack Sam, though doing away with Osgiliath may remedy that anyway. If there must be a physical attack, Sam must make some move to take the Ring. (I.e., "Can I help you bear it--just for a little while?" Then Frodo goes psycho.) <LI>Take away those angle-switching Gollum/Smeagol scenes. Everybody in the theatre was laughing; NOT the reaction I believe was intended. <LI>Cut the near-death drama with Aragorn. It's too contrived. Many of the viewers have read the books, and there is no suspense, as we know that the third book is named after him. He can't die, so we don't feel anything when it looks like he does. <LI>Definitely cut the Elves. This is the beginning of the age of Men; show it. <LI>Bring back the real Faramir. He portrayed the goodness of Men, and acted as a contrast to Boromir.</UL>That's basically all that I can think of now, but if I think of more, I'll be back!~*~Orual~*~But all in all, despite my gripes, I really did love the Two Towers. It rocked.

Alcerin · 12-23-2002, 09:22 PM

Ah... where should i begin??? <UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>shorter battle scene at Helms deep, I was yawning and my sister went to the bathroom (although the effect of all ten thousand of the Orcs in a big, long, wide group was quite breathtaking) <LI>the dead marshes should definately be foggy and dark <LI>make Gollum darker <LI>Farimir Should laugh more,not be so solumn,stop making evil expressions at Frodo, He should be more honorable. <LI>Ents should be bigger(in comparison to Isengard) <LI>Farimir should not take Frodo and Sam to Gondor!!!! it just wastes time. <LI>LOVE SCENES???????????? yuck.... it wastes even more time!!!! <LI>with the time I've saved, Sam and Frodo should be all the way to Shelob's Lair by now! </UL>

The Silver-shod Muse · 12-23-2002, 11:37 PM

Cut most of the middle scenes, including:Theoden's rather bizarre exorcism the warg riders' battle, Aragorn's fall and near-death experience, the Arwen dream sequence (everything we needed to know about that was covered in the discussion with Elrond) Aragorn's scouting of Isengard's army (we can assume the scouting would've already been done by scouts) Merry, Pippin's "we wanna go SOUTH" sceneReplace with:more of Eomer, some indications of NOBILITY and bravery in King Theoden (instead of telling Aragorn off all the time, why not show a little unity, and maybe even fighting?) the Eorlingas' ride to Isengard Ent draught and an extended destruction of Isengard scene, to include aftermath and the arrival of the Eorlingas For a stronger close and to save time in general, cut:the superfluous and exhausting Galadriel monologue, the numerous extra close-ups of Wood's big, frightened eyes the repeated images of the terrified women and children of Rohan before and during Helm's DeepReplace with:the rejoining of the Fellowship at the shattered Isengard followed by "the voice of Saruman", Pippin's Palantir mistake and the night ride to Minas Tirith.When Faramir says, "Here is where I show my character" (I can't remember the exact words, but it was something like that), he really should show his character and release them, after the Forbidden Pool scene, complete with his shifty eyes to show his doubts. With the Osgiliath scene cut, there'll be enough time to include the crossroads and the fallen statue of the king there. Minas Morgul can be saved for RotK.[ December 24, 2002: Message edited by: The Silver-shod Muse ]

Marileangorifurnimaluim · 12-26-2002, 04:24 PM

Hi all, thanks for joining the discussion.I agree with most of the suggestions.How would you change Theoden's 'exorcism'? I would at least get rid of the childishly simplistic word 'Spell.' Replace it with 'Sorcery' at least. I do understand how it was hard to show 20 years of Wormtongue's influence, and adding an enchantment simplified things.Hm. I'm assuming the Osgiliath scene and the changes to Faramir (very disappointing) were added to create dramatic tension on the ring-bearer side of the story. So ending at the Crossroads... it would lay there like overcooked spagetti.But nearly walking into an army headed by the Nazgul would work. A little preview of the nine on their winged steeds. A hint of forshadowing of how bad Mordor is.What needs to be shown is the benefits of Frodo following Gollum. Frodo doesn't trust him, but he needs Smeagol. And even Sam recognizes that. Gollum essentially teaches Frodo and Sam how to slip into Mordor unnoticed. In fact, the scene with the rabbit stew and their capture was a demonstration of how little Frodo and Sam understood 'sneaking.' Their very capture by Faramir actually proved to Frodo that Gollum was in fact a good guide. I mean, he managed to avoid capture when Frodo and Sam did not. They were caught because they didn't listen to him. That needs to be clear. A little snippet of dialogue at the rabbit stew scene..."No, no - travel by night, no, not by day! The sun sees you... everyone sees you. Listen to Smeagol, nice master." "A bunch of little sneaking Gollums we'll be in a row at this rate..." "No make fire!" "You said there were no orcs." "Yes, yes, yes, but it is dangeroussss... listen to Smeagol..." "I don't care, I'm making us a nice stew." Smeagol slinks off, afraid."Where did Smeagol go?" Frodo yawns. "He was afraid of the fire," Sam shrugs. Then Faramir captures them.There's a learning curve that has to take place for Frodo's successful crossing of Mordor to be plausible. We need to 'show don't tell' Gollum's treacherous intentions. Instead of Smeagol's boring monologue at the audience at the end telling us he planned to be a traitor, we need a long list of warning signs. We need the warnings from Faramir: don't trust such a guide! "Can you lead me into Mordor?" Frodo answers him, arms folded. "None but orcs and evil creatures know the ways of Mordor." "Then i either follow him, or else find a willing orc." Frodo says. "I do believe his promise will hold him yet. He is bound to me."We need Sam staying up at night, his sword unsheathed to protect Frodo. Have that image, instead of Frodo's frightened eyes.We need Gollum to say tell Frodo their route... only to a point. "Then, then.. up many stairs." "And what's after that?" Gollum doesn't answer, but simply scampers onward, with a furtive sideways look. Frodo and Sam exchange glances, but we've established by this point they have learned to listen to Gollum.To foreshadow his treachery, we need Frodo's part of the journey to end on a near escape, and I think that should be on the bridge of Minas Morgul. I do think that scene could be souped up for dramatic tension, even have Gollum pull Frodo out of harm's way. "Mussssn't give it to HIM!! Master must not give it TO HIM!!!!!"Anyway, that's enough for now.We need to work out how Faramir's scenes would play, so it doesn't bog down in conversation. (Probably a large reason why PJ changed it as well.)

Orual · 12-26-2002, 09:48 PM

For Faramir, I guess that after they reach Ithilien it could just cut to him talking with Frodo and Sam, about Boromir. It could go something like this...Faramir (reflectively): And so it was that Boromir but barely left the Golden Wood. (laughs sorrowfully) Perilous it must be, as all the stories have said.Sam (sitting up straighter): Well, I wouldn't say perilous, sir, so much as folks bring their peril with them. Now Boro--(breaks off, embarrassed)Faramir: What? Now Boromir?(Sam looks hesitantly at Frodo, but he is lost in his own thoughts and doesn't notice. Sam is on his own.)Faramir (persisting): Boromir brought his peril with him, you would say?Sam: Yes, sir, and as fine a man as your brother was, but it was in Lorién that he first saw what he wanted all along: The Enemy's Ring!Frodo (snapping back into the present, aghast): Sam!Sam: Save me! There I go again...the Gaffer always said, when you open your mouth you put your foot in it! (stands up) Now, sir, don't you go taking advantage* of Mr. Frodo because I'm no better than a fool. Here's a chance to show your quality!Faramir (laughing softly): Here, then, is the answer to all the riddles...here in the wild I have you: two halflings, and a host of men at my call, and the Ring of Power. A chance for Faramir, Captain of Gondor, to show his quality. Ha!(Frodo stands up, and he and Sam draw their swords and back away from Faramir. Close-up on Faramir, obviously tempted by the Ring. Show the Ring, whispering Faramir's name. Back to Faramir. He breathes heavily, then stops, his face falling. He sits down.)Faramir: Alas for Boromir! It was too sore a trial. How you have increased my sorrow, you travellers from the North. But I am not such a man as would desire this thing, even if I thought that I could master it. No, put it away and speak no more of it! For I do not wish to know any more of it. I am a man, and weak, and cannot resist this Ring for ever. But you have naught to fear from me, for I do not wish to touch it, or see it. Sleep in peace now, but first, if you can, tell me where you are going.Frodo (weak with relief): We are going to Mordor, to destroy it...I do not think I shall ever get there.(He sways, and Faramir catches him as he falls. He brings him to bed, and regards him gravely, and then looks to a weary Sam.)Faramir: I feel that we understand each other now, Master Gamgee. Sleep well now, for your journey will be long and perilous.Sam (smiles wearily): You took the test, sir, and showed your quality: the very highest.Faramir: Did I so? Perhaps, but that will yet be seen. Sleep now.[End scene]~*~ A little long? Good? Too closely following the book? Well, I say if it's too long then cut some of that Arwen stuff. Muahaha. But seriously, tell me what you think.~*~Orual~*~*Could somebody find a better way to say this, more suitable for the rather dirty minds of the public? I tried, but failed.[ December 26, 2002: Message edited by: Orual ]

Marileangorifurnimaluim · 12-27-2002, 04:54 AM

Yes. That Faramir scene should be in there. It's much more powerful. Replace the Osgiliath distraction. Really, Osgiliath did not work, the people who hadn't read the books were wondering 'where are we?' and they were the ones this change was for.And we don't have to cut Arwen. She does need the screen time to remind the audience she exists, and why Aragorn would choose her over Eowyn.But having Sam mess up and tell Faramir about the ring is fresh, new. I mean, we've already seen Isildur and Boromir tempted. We've seen Frodo mess up. To have Sam blow it, and Faramir not be tempted is much more interesting a story.

the mortal elf · 12-27-2002, 12:16 PM

I think that most of these changes are great, especially the new Faramir Dialogue. But I think we need to keep Arwen (call me a hopeless Romantic and see if I care ) and we need to keep Sam's speech. We could possibly do the warning signs instead of Gollum's speech, but both work for me. I'm not going to add any changes because I don't presume to be a director or writer

Marileangorifurnimaluim · 12-27-2002, 03:26 PM

Sam's speech needs to be shorter - much shorter. By about 1/2 I think. It needs to feel like conversation, not a soliloquoy. Break it up and make it part of a conversation.Yes, Tolkien does lend himself to soliloquoy, but since they managed to avoid it with Gandalf, Elrond and Aragorn, it's certainly possible to avoid it with Sam. Especially since making long thought-out speeches is out of character for Sam.

Orual · 12-27-2002, 09:12 PM

Maril, I agree about Sam's speech being a little OOC, but I thought it was beautiful--the one part of the movie that made me cry. I think that it was a powerful point in the movie for those of us who aren't really into violent action scenes--Helm's Deep was the true high point, the centerpiece so to speak, but Sam's speech was Helm's Deep for the rest of us. You are right about Arwen--I guess that I didn't think of people forgetting about her. (I wish I could, but that's beside the point.) But I wish that they had done it a little less--we didn't really need all of the Rivendell scenes. It wasn't bad, but it could've been saved for the Extended Version. Somebody suggested having Aragorn at Helm's Deep think about Arwen--very good. 1) It's a respite from all the orc-killing. 2) It's Arwen, but less of her. Everybody's happy. It's all good. Why didn't Peter Jackson think of that?As for Osgiliath, I was thinking "where are we?" I looked it up and it was, indeed, a ruin long before the Quest, so why did it matter if it was under attack? And why would Sauron bother to attack a ruin? Oh well, maybe Peter Jackson didn't read the timeline very well...~*~Orual~*~

Marileangorifurnimaluim · 12-28-2002, 02:46 AM

Yeah, I suggested the Arwen flashbacks be at Helm's Deep. You are quite correct, there was simply too much of her, more than was needed to drive the plot forward. Every time Arwen showed up, the pacing of the movie came to a standstill. Not good when it was already a little sluggish during Aragorn's fall and survival subplot.I don't think it's a matter of any individual's taste in movies. Most people like a variety of different types of movies in any case, so I don't think it's fair to say that if someone didn't like Sam's speech they must be an Action film buff. I feel Sam's speech stuck out like a sore thumb for a number of reasons. <UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI> He was tramping through unfamiliar territory at the time. People walking don't tend to make speeches, they speak in short sentences because their minds are on their surroundings. (Unless they know the area well, feel secure, etc.) It was unnatural timing for a speech. Forced. It would have worked better sitting down, encamped. <LI> It was out of character for Sam in particular to make speeches, as we mentioned. <LI> It was so much longer than anything anyone else had to say in the movie. I get the impression that other characters' long speeches were cut, so Sam's speech was out of balance with the rest of the dialogue in the movie. <LI> It was awkwardly bookended with Gollum's soliloquoy. Even Shakespeare, with his love of soliloquies, didn't make the mistake of having one right after the other, wearying the audience and watering down the point of both. <LI> PJ chose to make an Action/Adventure movie. In the context of that sort of movie it brought the pacing to a standstill. <LI> Something personal: this is just me, but I recognized what Sam said from various parts of the books. I recognized the speech as a collection of Sam's greatest hits out of context. I think it was less impactful than if these little nuggets had remained scattered throughout the movie-dialogue. Some character development was lost by assembling them in this way, and it gave Elijah less to work with in the relationship with Sam in Ithilien. What he said was wonderful, but it was a mistake to sweep Sam's verbal gems into one pile like this. I'm not impressed with Fran Boyens. </UL>

Orual · 12-28-2002, 01:56 PM

Sam's Greatest Hits! Oh, Maril, that's going to stay with me... I wasn't saying that if somebody didn't like Sam's speech they must be an action buff...I was just saying that it was a high point in the movie for those of us who aren't. There was so much violence and action and adrenaline that it was nice to have a scene that really stuck in your mind that didn't consist solely of killing orcs. (Okay, that's a little unfair, but I'm exaggerating to make my point.) Good points about Sam's speech, though, but I'd still keep it.~*~Orual~*~

12-23-2002, 02:04 AM	#1
Marileangorifurnimaluim Eerie Forest Spectre Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Buried in scrolls of fanfiction Posts: 798	Second-guessing Peter Jackson: The Two Towers Well, there is more to work with this year, isn't there?<P>Add your changes to The Two Towers Here. Remember the rules: you have the same budget as PJ, but also the same run-time constraints (sorry, no 'I'll keep everything the same as in the books' allowed). The movie has to be comprehensible to an audience that has never heard of Tolkien. Please keep your suggestions constructive. This isn't intended to be a critique (or sarcastic slam) of the movie. There are several threads for that.<BR><UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI> We shall keep the beginning shall we? Let's add the collapsing of the endless stair, close-ups of inlay, a work of surpassing beauty; fire; blood; collapsing under Gandalf as he barely escapes. His face as he turns to face his enemy on the mountaintop. The scene cuts away, before we know what happens.<BR><LI> The chase is excellent.<BR><LI> We need a sense of real danger for Merry and Pippin in the crossing of Rohan. <BR>M&P are forced to run with the Uruk-hai whips at their heels. Merry collapses and you see him nearly overrun by the orcs. The company of orcs runs on a bit, like they're going to leave him for dead. Pippin looks back. Then a commander notices, roars, and Merry is hauled up painfully by one arm, unconscious (the way a child picks up a doll, carelessly). You see the cut on Merry's forehead. Camera on Pippin's fear (this is shown from his perspective), then Pippin is shoved forward, forced to run, clearly exhausted. He loses sight of Merry between the orcs' legs.<BR><LI> Cuts to their three pursuers.<BR><LI> back to the orcs, Pippin collapses. You see him hauled up, blinking. Camera is smashed right into the dirty, bug-infested hairy neck of the orc. Black out.<BR><LI> The Gollum/Sam/Frodo... god, there's so much to be done. The entire interaction needs to shift to character development. Not just developing Gollum as a sympathetic character, but we need to take the opportunity to do some <I>very important</I> Frodo character development. <BR>We need to see Frodo's attitude towards his Quest change (through conversations with Sam and Faramir), his growing acceptance and determination. <BR>We need to establish his hate/fear towards Gollum, then watch it change to pity.<BR>Frodo needs to show some strength, threaten Gollum into promising as he does in the book. We need the 'I do pity him.' But when Sam tells him not to trust Gollum, he should say 'of course not!' and agree Gollum be tied up. I will get back to this section. It's late and I'm tired, and this is the most important change. It sets up Frodo's courage in Mordor.<BR><LI> The Dead Marshes need to happen at night. It doesn't work during daylight.<BR><LI> Leave in the additional scenes with Wormtongue, and the Eowyn/Aragorn interaction. Excellent.<BR><LI> Remove entire subplot of Aragorn going over the cliff, et al. Arwen scenes can be edited in on the battlements of Helm's Deep, Aragorn as a soldier thinking about what he could lose if he dies.<BR><LI> We need to indicate the treachery of Saruman to Sauron, Isengard/Mordor orcs fight over Pippin and Merry. (Replaces the 'Hobbit as food' scene.) 'They go to Mordor!' 'They go to Saruman!' Saruman's treachery and double dealing is not too complicated for the audience. And if they don't get it, they will at least see the orcs don't really get along. <BR><LI> Instead of Elves arriving to help at Helm's Deep, it's the Dunedain, many rangers. It makes more sense that Aragorn's extended family shows up. 'Theoden King... a company of... rangers... have come. Shall we let them past our defenses?' Shows the distrust of the times, and echoes Butterbur's 'one of them rangers' comment. (Great visual image, too, all those scruffy seasoned rangers moving professionally between Theoden's suspicious but admiring green troups.) With some elves 'Our father couldn't keep us away!' Big hugs. Indication that the elves supported men individually, not as a public gesture of support. Echoes Arwen's individual choice. <BR><LI> Remove Haldir from Helm's Deep. No prior indication the elves would help. Plus the death of Haldir doesn't add anything, he's not established enough as a character to have real impact. It feels gratuitous. Showing the little kid getting armored up was impactful. More shots of kids on the battlements, looking scared as the orcs approach, now that would work.<BR><LI> Build fear of coming orcs, closer shots of their marching on Helm's Deep. Chilling, to see orcs marching in order.<BR><LI> Treebeard complains of orcs cutting down trees as he walks with Merry and Pippin, during the 'no one is on my side.' Merry and Pippin tell him Saruman is a traitor. Treebeard is surprised. And angry. Calls Entmoot as a result. During Entmoot, you hear the word 'Saruman' and the Ents fall suddenly silent. Merry and Pippin turn to each other. They heard that part. Merry and Pippin are brought forward, told to tell what they know of Saruman's treachery. They fumble with what they know, they get it sort of confused, but it's enough. The trees make low, angry rumbling sounds. <BR><LI> Helm's Deep: we need confusion, mayhem. Not knowing where Gimli is as the defense crumbles. Needing to ask where the king is. Turning corners, and suddenly finding orcs where you don't expect them - in the castle. The orcs are just as confused and split up. Bodies in the halls, orcs and men. Trip hazard.<P>Aragorn 'Legolas. Where is Gimli?' <BR>Legolas 'I thought he was with you.' <BR>Another soldier, 'I saw him last on the wall.' <BR>Aragorn 'Where is the king?' <BR>Soldier 1 'I'm not sure.'<BR>Soldier 2 'We have him well defended. Deep within the Keep.'<BR>Aragorn 'You mean <I>trapped</I>.' Goes to find the king.<BR><LI> The king needs to be a better soldier. Aragorn suggests the sortie, a calvary charge, follows Theoden around the corner - only to see the horses all ready. 'I have your horse saddled, if you care to join us.' Smile from Theoden. <BR><LI> Remove Osgiliath scene in its entirety. People were confused where Frodo was, it wasn't particularly scary as the audience all knew Faramir wouldn't take the ring (and if it were a danger, it was repetitive of Boromir anyway). It just didn't work. It also required commanders at Osgiliath that were not introduced as characters but had important lines. And it required that odd narration from Galadriel in the middle of the movie to 'explain' it. We can get rid of that, and use Faramir for character development instead, a replacement for Gandalf and Galadriel for Frodo to confide in. Gandalf gives him moral guidance. Galadriel insists on Frodo having a backbone - you are alone. And Faramir treats Frodo as an equal, a leader (with a following of two). Cuts Frodo's self-pity, gives him an example of soldiering on regardless.<BR><LI> Replace tension from Faramir maybe taking the ring with tension of Frodo nearly getting caught outside Mordor by Nazgul at Minas Morgul.<BR><LI> Remove long Sean Astin soliloquoy and Andy Serkis soliloquoy. <BR></UL><P>Okay, that's a start. I'll get back with more detail on Frodo/Sam/Gollum character development, and Faramir/Frodo character development. __________________ Deserves death! I daresay he does... And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them?

12-23-2002, 12:33 PM	#2
Manwe Sulimo Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Taurelilómëa-tumbalemorna Tumbaletaurëa Lómëanor Posts: 553	Pretty good ideas, especially the Faramir changes and emphasis on Merry and Pippin. There should be less Gimli comedy (which shouldn't be too hard, since he'll be "lost" at Helm's Deep). However, Sam and Sméagol's speeches at the end shouldn't be removed. They are both a great way to end the story of TTT and set up the story of RotK...and it gives something for the non-Tolkienite audience to mull over for the next year ("yes, we'll let <I>her</I> kill them...."). __________________ "Monkeys learn sign language so they can tell the dolphins they love them."

12-23-2002, 06:51 PM	#3
Orual Speaker of the Dead Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Superbia Posts: 868	One word, Maril: Yes. Definitely more Merry and Pippin, less Gimli the Comedian, less Faramir the Would-Be Ringbearer. For sure, the Merry/Pippin/Treebeard scenes wouldn't be the focus of the film, but I think that it was severely underplayed. (The more of Billy Boyd's accent, the better.)<P>Additional changes:<P><UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>More of Frodo making decisions, fewer close-ups of his tormented face. Frodo takes charge of the Quest in TT; make it show.<BR><LI>Don't have Frodo attack Sam, though doing away with Osgiliath may remedy that anyway. If there must be a physical attack, Sam must make some move to take the Ring. (I.e., "Can I help you bear it--just for a little while?" Then Frodo goes psycho.)<BR><LI>Take away those angle-switching Gollum/Smeagol scenes. Everybody in the theatre was laughing; NOT the reaction I believe was intended.<BR><LI>Cut the near-death drama with Aragorn. It's too contrived. Many of the viewers have read the books, and there is no suspense, as we know that the third book is named after him. He can't die, so we don't feel anything when it looks like he does.<BR><LI>Definitely cut the Elves. This is the beginning of the age of Men; show it.<BR><LI>Bring back the real Faramir. He portrayed the goodness of Men, and acted as a contrast to Boromir.</UL><P>That's basically all that I can think of now, but if I think of more, I'll be back!<P>~~Orual~~<P><I>But all in all, despite my gripes, I really did love the Two Towers. It rocked.</I> __________________ "Oh, my god! I care so little, I almost passed out!" --Dr. Cox, "Scrubs"

12-23-2002, 09:22 PM	#4
Alcerin Pile O'Bones Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: America's amber waves of grain Posts: 20	Ah... where should i begin??? <P><BR><UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>shorter battle scene at Helms deep, I was yawning and my sister went to the bathroom (although the effect of all ten thousand of the Orcs in a big, long, wide group was quite breathtaking)<BR><LI>the dead marshes should definately be foggy and dark<BR><LI>make Gollum darker<BR><LI>Farimir Should laugh more,not be so solumn,stop making evil expressions at Frodo, He should be more honorable.<BR><LI>Ents should be bigger(in comparison to Isengard)<BR><LI>Farimir should <B>not</B> take Frodo and Sam to <B>Gondor!!!!</B> it just wastes time.<BR><LI><B>LOVE SCENES???????????? </B> yuck.... it wastes even <I>more </I>time!!!!<BR><LI>with the time I've saved, Sam and Frodo should be all the way to Shelob's Lair by now! <BR></UL> __________________ Jesus wept. ~John 11:35~

12-23-2002, 11:37 PM	#5
The Silver-shod Muse Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: The shoulder of a poet, TX Posts: 388	Cut most of the middle scenes, including:<P>Theoden's rather bizarre exorcism<BR>the warg riders' battle, <BR>Aragorn's fall and near-death experience, <BR>the Arwen dream sequence (everything we needed to know about that was covered in the discussion with Elrond)<BR>Aragorn's scouting of Isengard's army (we can assume the scouting would've already been done by scouts)<BR>Merry, Pippin's "we wanna go SOUTH" scene<P>Replace with:<P>more of Eomer,<BR>some indications of NOBILITY and bravery in King Theoden (instead of telling Aragorn off all the time, why not show a little unity, and maybe even fighting?)<BR>the Eorlingas' ride to Isengard<BR>Ent draught and an extended destruction of Isengard scene, to include aftermath and the arrival of the Eorlingas<BR> <BR>For a stronger close and to save time in general, cut:<P>the superfluous and exhausting Galadriel monologue, <BR>the numerous extra close-ups of Wood's big, frightened eyes<BR>the repeated images of the terrified women and children of Rohan before and during Helm's Deep<P>Replace with:<P>the rejoining of the Fellowship at the shattered Isengard followed by "the voice of Saruman", Pippin's Palantir mistake and the night ride to Minas Tirith.<P>When Faramir says, "Here is where I show my character" (I can't remember the exact words, but it was something like that), he really should show his character and release them, after the Forbidden Pool scene, complete with his shifty eyes to show his doubts. With the Osgiliath scene cut, there'll be enough time to include the crossroads and the fallen statue of the king there.<BR>Minas Morgul can be saved for RotK.<p>[ December 24, 2002: Message edited by: The Silver-shod Muse ] __________________ "'You," he said, "tell her all. What good came to you? Do you rejoice that Maleldil became a man? Tell her of your joys, and of what profit you had when you made Maleldil and death acquainted.'" -Perelandra, by C.S. Lewis

12-26-2002, 04:24 PM	#6
Marileangorifurnimaluim Eerie Forest Spectre Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Buried in scrolls of fanfiction Posts: 798	Hi all, thanks for joining the discussion.<P>I agree with most of the suggestions.<P>How would you change Theoden's 'exorcism'? I would at least get rid of the childishly simplistic word 'Spell.' Replace it with 'Sorcery' at least. I do understand how it was hard to show 20 years of Wormtongue's influence, and adding an enchantment simplified things.<P>Hm. I'm assuming the Osgiliath scene and the changes to Faramir (very disappointing) were added to create dramatic tension on the ring-bearer side of the story. So ending at the Crossroads... it would lay there like overcooked spagetti.<P>But nearly walking into an army headed by the Nazgul would work. A little preview of the nine on their winged steeds. A hint of forshadowing of how bad Mordor is.<P>What needs to be shown is the <I>benefits</I> of Frodo following Gollum. Frodo doesn't trust him, but he <I>needs</I> Smeagol. And even Sam recognizes that. <P>Gollum essentially teaches Frodo and Sam how to slip into Mordor unnoticed. In fact, the scene with the rabbit stew and their capture was a demonstration of how little Frodo and Sam understood 'sneaking.' Their very capture by Faramir actually proved to Frodo that Gollum was in fact a good guide. I mean, he managed to avoid capture when Frodo and Sam did not. They were caught <I>because</I> they didn't listen to him. That needs to be clear. <P>A little snippet of dialogue at the rabbit stew scene...<P>"No, no - travel by night, no, not by day! The sun <I>sees</I> you... everyone <I>sees</I> you. Listen to Smeagol, nice master."<BR>"A bunch of little sneaking Gollums we'll be in a row at this rate..." <P>"No make fire!"<BR>"You said there were no orcs."<BR>"Yes, yes, yes, but it is dangeroussss... listen to Smeagol..." <BR>"I don't care, I'm making us a nice stew." <BR>Smeagol slinks off, afraid.<P>"Where did Smeagol go?" Frodo yawns.<BR>"He was afraid of the fire," Sam shrugs.<BR>Then Faramir captures them.<P>There's a learning curve that has to take place for Frodo's successful crossing of Mordor to be plausible. <P>We need to 'show don't tell' Gollum's treacherous intentions. Instead of Smeagol's boring monologue at the audience at the end <I>telling us</I> he planned to be a traitor, we need a long list of warning signs. <P>We need the warnings from Faramir: don't trust such a guide! <BR>"Can you lead me into Mordor?" Frodo answers him, arms folded.<BR>"None but orcs and evil creatures know the ways of Mordor."<BR>"Then i either follow him, or else find a willing orc." Frodo says. "I do believe his promise will hold him yet. He is bound to me."<P>We need Sam staying up at night, his sword unsheathed to protect Frodo. Have that image, instead of Frodo's frightened eyes.<P>We need Gollum to say tell Frodo their route... only to a point. <BR>"Then, then.. up many stairs."<BR>"And what's after that?"<BR>Gollum doesn't answer, but simply scampers onward, with a furtive sideways look.<BR>Frodo and Sam exchange glances, but we've established by this point they have learned to listen to Gollum.<P>To foreshadow his treachery, we need Frodo's part of the journey to end on a near escape, and I think that should be on the bridge of Minas Morgul. I do think that scene could be souped up for dramatic tension, even have Gollum pull Frodo out of harm's way. "Mussssn't give it to HIM!! Master must not give it TO HIM!!!!!"<P>Anyway, that's enough for now.<P>We need to work out how Faramir's scenes would play, so it doesn't bog down in conversation. (Probably a large reason why PJ changed it as well.) __________________ Deserves death! I daresay he does... And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them?

12-26-2002, 09:48 PM	#7
Orual Speaker of the Dead Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Superbia Posts: 868	For Faramir, I guess that after they reach Ithilien it could just cut to him talking with Frodo and Sam, about Boromir. It could go something like this...<P>Faramir <I>(reflectively)</I>: And so it was that Boromir but barely left the Golden Wood. <I>(laughs sorrowfully)</I> Perilous it must be, as all the stories have said.<P>Sam <I>(sitting up straighter)</I>: Well, I wouldn't say <I>perilous</I>, sir, so much as folks bring their peril with them. Now Boro--<I>(breaks off, embarrassed)</I><P>Faramir: What? Now Boromir?<P><I>(Sam looks hesitantly at Frodo, but he is lost in his own thoughts and doesn't notice. Sam is on his own.)</I><P>Faramir <I>(persisting)</I>: Boromir brought his peril with him, you would say?<P>Sam: Yes, sir, and as fine a man as your brother was, but it was in Lorién that he first saw what he wanted all along: The Enemy's Ring!<P>Frodo <I>(snapping back into the present, aghast)</I>: <I>Sam!</I><P>Sam: Save me! There I go again...the Gaffer always said, when you open your mouth you put your foot in it! <I>(stands up)</I> Now, sir, don't you go taking advantage* of Mr. Frodo because I'm no better than a fool. Here's a chance to show your quality!<P>Faramir <I>(laughing softly)</I>: Here, then, is the answer to all the riddles...here in the wild I have you: two halflings, and a host of men at my call, and the Ring of Power. A chance for Faramir, Captain of Gondor, to show his quality. Ha!<P><I>(Frodo stands up, and he and Sam draw their swords and back away from Faramir. Close-up on Faramir, obviously tempted by the Ring. Show the Ring, whispering Faramir's name. Back to Faramir. He breathes heavily, then stops, his face falling. He sits down.)</I><P>Faramir: Alas for Boromir! It was too sore a trial. How you have increased my sorrow, you travellers from the North. But I am not such a man as would desire this thing, even if I thought that I could master it. No, put it away and speak no more of it! For I do not wish to know any more of it. I am a man, and weak, and cannot resist this Ring for ever. But you have naught to fear from me, for I do not wish to touch it, or see it. Sleep in peace now, but first, if you can, tell me where you are going.<P>Frodo <I>(weak with relief)</I>: We are going to Mordor, to destroy it...I do not think I shall ever get there.<P><I>(He sways, and Faramir catches him as he falls. He brings him to bed, and regards him gravely, and then looks to a weary Sam.)</I><P>Faramir: I feel that we understand each other now, Master Gamgee. Sleep well now, for your journey will be long and perilous.<P>Sam <I>(smiles wearily)</I>: You took the test, sir, and showed your quality: the very highest.<P>Faramir: Did I so? Perhaps, but that will yet be seen. Sleep now.<P>[End scene]<P>~~<BR>A little long? Good? Too closely following the book? Well, I say if it's too long then cut some of that Arwen stuff. Muahaha. But seriously, tell me what you think.<P>~~Orual~~<P>Could somebody find a better way to say this, more suitable for the rather dirty minds of the public? I tried, but failed.<p>[ December 26, 2002: Message edited by: Orual ] __________________ "Oh, my god! I care so little, I almost passed out!" --Dr. Cox, "Scrubs"

12-27-2002, 04:54 AM	#8
Marileangorifurnimaluim Eerie Forest Spectre Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Buried in scrolls of fanfiction Posts: 798	Yes. <P>That Faramir scene should be in there. It's much more powerful. <P>Replace the Osgiliath distraction. Really, Osgiliath did not work, the people who hadn't read the books were wondering 'where are we?' and they were the ones this change was for.<P>And we don't have to cut Arwen. She does need the screen time to remind the audience she exists, and why Aragorn would choose her over Eowyn.<P>But having Sam mess up and tell Faramir about the ring is fresh, new. I mean, we've already seen Isildur and Boromir tempted. We've seen Frodo mess up. To have Sam blow it, and Faramir <I>not</I> be tempted is much more interesting a story. __________________ Deserves death! I daresay he does... And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them?

12-27-2002, 12:16 PM	#9
the mortal elf Wight Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away... Posts: 201	I think that most of these changes are great, especially the new Faramir Dialogue. But I think we need to keep Arwen (call me a hopeless Romantic and see if I care ) and we need to keep Sam's speech. We could possibly do the warning signs instead of Gollum's speech, but both work for me. I'm not going to add any changes because I don't presume to be a director or writer __________________ My imaginary friend says you have problems.

12-27-2002, 03:26 PM	#10
Marileangorifurnimaluim Eerie Forest Spectre Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Buried in scrolls of fanfiction Posts: 798	Sam's speech needs to be shorter - much shorter. By about 1/2 I think. It needs to feel like conversation, not a soliloquoy. Break it up and make it part of a conversation.<P>Yes, Tolkien does lend himself to soliloquoy, but since they managed to avoid it with Gandalf, Elrond and Aragorn, it's certainly possible to avoid it with Sam. Especially since making long thought-out speeches is out of character for Sam. __________________ Deserves death! I daresay he does... And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them?

12-27-2002, 09:12 PM	#11
Orual Speaker of the Dead Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Superbia Posts: 868	Maril, I agree about Sam's speech being a little OOC, but I thought it was beautiful--the one part of the movie that made me cry. I think that it was a powerful point in the movie for those of us who aren't really into violent action scenes--Helm's Deep was the true high point, the centerpiece so to speak, but Sam's speech was Helm's Deep for the rest of us. You are right about Arwen--I guess that I didn't think of people forgetting about her. (I wish I could, but that's beside the point.) But I wish that they had done it a little less--we didn't really need all of the Rivendell scenes. It wasn't bad, but it could've been saved for the Extended Version. Somebody suggested having Aragorn at Helm's Deep think about Arwen--very good. 1) It's a respite from all the orc-killing. 2) It's Arwen, but less of her. Everybody's happy. It's all good. Why didn't Peter Jackson think of that?<P>As for Osgiliath, <I>I</I> was thinking "where are we?" I looked it up and it was, indeed, a ruin long before the Quest, so why did it matter if it was under attack? And why would Sauron bother to attack a ruin? Oh well, maybe Peter Jackson didn't read the timeline very well...<P>~~Orual~~ __________________ "Oh, my god! I care so little, I almost passed out!" --Dr. Cox, "Scrubs"

12-28-2002, 02:46 AM	#12
Marileangorifurnimaluim Eerie Forest Spectre Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Buried in scrolls of fanfiction Posts: 798	Yeah, I suggested the Arwen flashbacks be at Helm's Deep. You are quite correct, there was simply too much of her, more than was needed to drive the plot forward. Every time Arwen showed up, the pacing of the movie came to a standstill. Not good when it was already a little sluggish during Aragorn's fall and survival subplot.<P>I don't think it's a matter of any individual's taste in movies. Most people like a variety of different types of movies in any case, so I don't think it's fair to say that if someone didn't like Sam's speech they must be an Action film buff. I feel Sam's speech stuck out like a sore thumb for a number of reasons. <BR><UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI> He was tramping through unfamiliar territory at the time. People walking don't tend to make speeches, they speak in short sentences because their minds are on their surroundings. (Unless they know the area well, feel secure, etc.) It was unnatural timing for a speech. Forced. It would have worked better sitting down, encamped.<BR><LI> It was out of character for Sam in particular to make speeches, as we mentioned.<BR><LI> It was so much longer than anything anyone else had to say in the movie. I get the impression that other characters' long speeches were cut, so Sam's speech was out of balance with the rest of the dialogue in the movie.<BR><LI> It was awkwardly bookended with Gollum's soliloquoy. Even Shakespeare, with his love of soliloquies, didn't make the mistake of having one right after the other, wearying the audience and watering down the point of both.<BR><LI> PJ chose to make an Action/Adventure movie. In the context of that sort of movie it brought the pacing to a standstill.<BR><LI> Something personal: this is just me, but I recognized what Sam said from various parts of the books. I recognized the speech as a collection of Sam's greatest hits out of context. I think it was less impactful than if these little nuggets had remained scattered throughout the movie-dialogue. Some character development was lost by assembling them in this way, and it gave Elijah less to work with in the relationship with Sam in Ithilien. What he said was wonderful, but it was a mistake to sweep Sam's verbal gems into one pile like this. I'm not impressed with Fran Boyens.<BR></UL> __________________ Deserves death! I daresay he does... And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them?

12-28-2002, 01:56 PM	#13
Orual Speaker of the Dead Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Superbia Posts: 868	Sam's Greatest Hits! Oh, Maril, that's going to stay with me... <P>I wasn't saying that if somebody didn't like Sam's speech they must be an action buff...I was just saying that it was a high point in the movie for those of us who aren't. There was so much violence and action and adrenaline that it was nice to have a scene that really stuck in your mind that <I>didn't</I> consist solely of killing orcs. (Okay, that's a little unfair, but I'm exaggerating to make my point.) Good points about Sam's speech, though, but I'd still keep it.<P>~~Orual~~ __________________ "Oh, my god! I care so little, I almost passed out!" --Dr. Cox, "Scrubs"