A Nervous Premonition

[Iarwain]

After the release of these (for the most part) wonderful films, it has seemed like a dream come true to very nearly all Tolkien fans out there. But now a fear enters my mind. Today, I walked past some aquantainces of mine making fun of the Weathertop scene in an almost <I>lets-make-fun-of-that-nerdy-film</I> way. This frightened me greatly. What if a new subgroup of people is labled off in the same way as "trekkies", only as "ring freaks". Terrrifying indeed. I'm sure I'm overreacting, but I'd like some response from the rest of the crowd, just to see.<P>Beginning to fear the world outside my bounds,<BR>Iarwain

[Manwe Sulimo]

*Giggles crazily*<P>Finally, the recognition we deserve!<P>That would be great! I'd finally have an excuse to start wearing cloaks to school! Maybe we could have huge international conventions every year and go on a quest to destroy a ring....<P>I am excited at the prospect.<p>[ January 06, 2003: Message edited by: Manwe Sulimo ]

[Iarwain]

It seems then, that my feelings are different than yours. I reguard this as a frightening thing. I would <B>not</B> be interested in a heirarchy of fans, or mass conventions. The thought disturbs me. But perhaps I focus too much on conformity...

[-Imrahil-]

That scares me too. I wouldn't want that to happen. It would take the integrity out of LotR, an insult to Tolkien if you will.<P>*shrug*<p>[ January 07, 2003: Message edited by: -Imrahil- ]

[Iarwain]

It does take away from its integrity. It reduces LotR from higher learning to childish obsession. If we let this happen, I fear I will cease to love Middle Earth. For if others rise up to and destroy it with additions and attractions, all purity will be lost. It will cease to be a scholarly work. It will become as Star Wars and Harry Potter and Star Trek. It will be left a story; a name without meaning. And the meaning is what lies truly dear to my heart.

[Diamond18]

Oh, but it's already happened. Correct me if I'm wrong, but since LotR became a hugely popular book back in the 60's, LotR fans have been labled geeks. Or hippies, or something. The movies just expose us even more, but "Ringers" have been considered geeky for a while now.<P>Everything that has a large fanbase will be dissed by other people, so I don't worry about it. Let them say whatever they want to...nothing can rob me of my enjoyment of the books and the movies. Conformity is for wimps. Don't let it bother you. Just think of those people as the Hobbits who scoffed at adventures and were suspicious of Blibo. He didn't worry about what the other Hobbits thought, he kept right on associating with Elves and Dwarves!

[Iarwain]

Very inspirational, Daimond, but I'm afraid that for me, it doesn't quite do the trick. I'm afraid that I'm discovering that I have passed the time in my life when I am a psycho-fan, and (oh this is really killing me ) I've lost the willingness to focus my life around a series of novels (not that you were suggesting that) when there is more profitable information out there to be gathered. It may not be, but I regret to say that this is the END, perhaps my last post. I am saying GOOD-BYE. NOW.<P>...And he was never seen in the Shire again.<P>farewell,<BR>Iarwain.

[Gorwingel]

Oh I don't think it will get terrible, because unlike Star Wars and Star Trek. It is based on a literary masterpeice, and it has taken such a long time for it to get this much attention. Another thing is the average Tolkien fan has a great respect for the books and would not want to exploit them.<BR>(Part of it I was just joking) I would never want to do anything that would damage the integrity of these stories. Even though the books are different than the movies I think they are some of the best book adaptations I have ever seen. They have made the world of Tolkien accessible to the average person.<P>And also there is Tolkien Conventions out there, but they are much different than the other conventions. Like I hate when LOTR is grouped in to things like Comic book conventions, Lord of the Rings was never a comic book, and it will never be a comic book (ok, maybe it already is). It has nothing to do with that. Us fans are people with a great respect for the novel and everything about it. And that is one great thing.

[Iarwain]

What you say, Gorwingle, is true. However, the fans should ask themselves whether or not when the story is made available to the average person, it is not turned into an average tale, and therefore subjected to all of the exploitations of average tales. You must be sure, always, that the Lord of the Rings, a true literary masterpiece is not turned into the accompanying novels to Lord of the Rings, a cinema milestone.<P>Farewell forever.

[Diamond18]

Oh, I doubt things are really that dire. At any rate, you shouldn't desert LotR just because the average movie goer has got ahold of it. I may be repeating myself, but I really think that you shouldn't let other people's perceptions of something you love cause you to stop loving it. Of course you shouldn't wrap your life around LotR, but that would be true even if there were no movies and no movie-fans and people who ridicule book/movie fans.<P>Seriously, <I>do not</I> worry yourself so much over how other people view LotR. It doesn't matter, as long as you know the truth. Do <I>you</I> think the books are great works of literature?<P>I'm not trying to be inspirational, really. I'm being realistic. Like Christopher Lee said, the movie-makers didn't go out and burn every copy of LotR. Unless you think that the public at large's current or future perception of LotR really changes what LotR is and what it has been since WWI when Tolkien began working the whole shebang, you should not care so much.<p>[ January 06, 2003: Message edited by: Diamond18 ]

[Tigerlily Gamgee]

Well met, Diamond18. Your opinions reflect my own.<BR>I love the books, I love the movies, but I do not base my life around them. So what if I am labeled as a Tolkien geek... If people have nothing better to do than to label other people then let them do it. There is no reason to fear it... the publics view on things has never changed my opinion of something in the past, so I will not let it do it now either.

Gone With the Wind fanatics are called Windies. Titanic fans are Titaniacs. I think people laugh at Trekkies because usually those fans are people considered to be nerds. Not a single fan I know of with LOTR is a nerdy person at all. I myself and one of those ahead-of-the-time trend-setters magazines rely on. My cousin is a total goth girl. My fiance is a bit nerdy, but more like the popular pred guy often steriotyped (he does like Star Trek). If you stop liking or loving LOTR simply because we're grouped together, then you never really loved it at all.

[Susan Delgado]

There seem to be many here who object to being called "nerds". Why?<P>Diamond, if we are "Ringers", then, being here, would we be "Dead Ringers"? <P>Personally, I don't object to being grouped. <I>I</I> know it's a good book and it's a comfort to me that there are so many others who also know it's a good book.

[Beren87]

Oh my that was a bad pun Susan, <P>I have always preferred the term "tolkienite" to describe my obsession. Except that it seems to be confused with some sort of a religion qutie often.<p>[ January 07, 2003: Message edited by: Beren87 ]

It takes a fanship of enormous proportions to be grouped like this. It's quite an honor actually.

[Sapphire_Flame]

Personally, I would like the books even if no one else did. And most of the people *I* know who like the movies like them from a very superficial(sp?) perspective. True fans who admire not only the books but all the work and detail put into them are a rare find, and I'm proud to be one of them. Getting grouped wouldn't be *too* bad, and, like Manwe Sulimo said, it'd give me an excuse to wear my cloak to school!! (I do anyway, but....)<P>And, yes, I get made fun of for being a Ringer (or Dead Ringer, in this case ) but I'm used to it. I just take comfort in the fact that everyone who does that must have an IQ roughly equivalent to that of a mushroom.

Quite honestly I never had much desire to read LOTR until I heard there were movies being made. Then I read The Hobbit and fell in love. My fiance said I should read that one first. Then a bunch of stuff happened before I was able to read the rest. And now I'm learning Elvish. It's incredible these languages he invented in such a short time. Most languages can take centuries to be formed. Look at English. It's still changing and transforming after how many years? How many millenia? I used to be like that-if the general public started liking it, I must hate it. It was like I didn't want to associate myself with the average dumb person/ Then I grew up and realized that it doesn't matter what they like because I only turned myself away from what I found enjoyable. <P>And if you want to talk about being wrapped up in Middle Earth, my name I had legally changed to Arwen.

[Iarwain]

Sorry for the over dramatization, guys! <P>What I mean is that I am no longer looking at Tolkien literature as one of the major investions of my time. I am not saying that because access of Middle-Earth has expanded to the general public, I have ceased to love it. Nor am I saying that I have ceased to be a fan. I do, however, wish to express my opinion as to the possibility of the degradation of Tolkien literature. We should not allow the spirit of Tolkien's works be overrun by general knowledge and exploitation. Stereotypes, especially negative ones, I reguard as degrading to the novels, and I hope that these will not grow into widespread generalization. And, as "international conventions" and "quests to destroy the ring" would most likely fuel such generalizations, the mere thought of their existence terrifies me. <P>I hope that none of what I've said is taken in an offensive way.<BR>Iarwain<P>P.S. I never thought of wearing a cloak before, I always associated it with gothic people rather than "ringers". I'm also sort of frigtened by the fanaticism that some of you show, though at one time, I showed as much myself.<p>[ January 07, 2003: Message edited by: Iarwain ]

[Orual]

Well, I think that all we have to do is ignore it. If people are taking Tolkien's work out of context--gasp! surprise there--then we just have to keep on truckin' like we always have. If people are being stupid, we just have to keep our heads. Just ignore them: don't go to the conventions, the "quests," the parties. Don't participate in the costume contests outside of the movie theatres. Just appreciate the books (and the movies) for what they are: great literature, some of the best ever created. Do not go gently into that dark night, Iarwain, do not turn to the dark side! LoL! The great thing about books like the Lord of the Rings is that it means something different to everybody. If people get pleasure out of doing that kind of weird Trekkie-esque stuff, then more power to them. Whatever floats your boat, basically. If it sinks your boat to attend conventions, then stay at home and read! If things change, don't change with them. I think that most people here are accustomed to going against the flow anyway. <P>~*~Orual~*~

[Iarwain]

Most interesting, Orual. I believe that your ideology is used by many people for their lives in general. By the way, perchance, does your name come from C.S. Lewis's <I>'Till We Have Faces</I>?

[maikafanawen]

I think that a group of Ringies would be the BEST thing EVER. I LOOOOVE the Lord of the Rings. My parents actually tought me to read by The Hobbit (sort of). When the movies came out I LOVED them. They are close to perfect minus the extracted scenes. If the movies is what it takes to get a group of Ringies started then so-be-it! AND, if the average movie-goer likes Lord of the Rings then how awesome is that? Those of you who have stopped enjoying the series because now the "ignorant" can enjoy it as well are acting selfish and snobbish (no offense, honestly). I am so excited at the idea of "Ringies" I can't stand it. Being able to wear cloaks and elf ears in public with people understanding who you are is so overwhelmingly (word?) fantastic!!<P>Does anyone else feel this way?

[Iarwain]

Sadly, Maikafanawen, there is a division between us, and I do not understand your thoughts. The difference between you and I, I believe, is the difference between saying "fun" and "enjoyable" (or a difference in degrees of depression ). You seem more energetic and welcoming than I. Where as I like to view myself as an ent, wize and old, that is trying to endure the radical changes and behavior around him, or as a Malacandrian <I>sorn</I> that is old and full of knowledge.<p>[ January 07, 2003: Message edited by: Iarwain ]

[maikafanawen]

Don't worry Iarwain. There are MANY who feel the same as you do I understand how you feel however, because my mother and my older brother feel the same way as you and they remind me of it every day I am sorry that I can give no encouragement for I am not "wise" in that area. I'm not a very good reasoner (word?) or thinker. sorry

[Iarwain]

The apology is mine. I wasn't trying to say that I'm wise or anything, it's just that I like to feel like I am...

[Orual]

Well, I certainly try to hold that ideology in my own life...not to let other people change me. It's a hard-learned lesson, but eventually it gets beaten into one's skull. Even one with as hard a head as mine--it's my Tookish side coming out, I suppose.<P>Yes, my name is from "Till We Have Faces." A wonderful book...a very interesting twist on the myth. It was my first exposure to Lewis, and I quite liked it.<P>~*~Orual~*~

I first encountered Tolkien my senior year of high school—Class of ’66. Those paperbacks with psychedelic cover art--how the old Tolkien hands must have lamented! Surely, the common rabble would ruin Middle Earth. Of course, their complaints were made in scholarly gatherings far from public view—the promiscuity of the Internet was far in the future. <BR> <BR>Several re-readings later, I followed the path of myth, legend & fantasy to other realms. Affection remained & I picked up The Fellowship once again when I heard movies were in the works. I wanted fresh memories to combat any vileness & fell in love with the books all over again. Let’s quibble over details while sitting over nut-brown ale & a bowl or two of pipe weed—but I find the films delightful & true to the spirit of Tolkien.<P>Perhaps some folk will desert Tolkien’s world because it’s become “common”—thirty years after the first mass-marketing of Middle Earth. Simultaneously, movie fans are picking up the books for the first time: “Ooh, Legolas, he’s so kewl.” Some of them will “get it” & follow the road that goes ever on & on. <P>Tolkien lives.

[Iarwain]

All I can say is that I hope you're right, Brigid. Did you ever proclaim to someone that "Frodo Lives", back in the old days?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Brigid, welcome to the Downs! It looks like you're a candidate for the <A HREF="http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=14&t=000840" TARGET=_blank>Tolkien Coming of Age Club</A> - there are quite a few of us who have been Tolkien readers for more than 18 years. If you like, tell us a bit about yourself there.<P>By the way, I keep wanting to call this thread "A Nerdous Premonition"!!<p>[ January 08, 2003: Message edited by: Estelyn Telcontar ]

[Lady_Báin]

Iarwain your story saddens me (almost to tears) but i do not know how to comfort you, though you do not seem like you want it, it seems as though your vision has clouded, could i suggest picking up you copy and re-realise what you loved about it the first time. It also seems as though you are being pushed away from a great jewel because others also seek after this jewel also. (and yes have jewel fanclubs and conventions ) Do not lose this great legacy that J.R.R. Tolkien gave to be loved by millions because you are turned off by other people's actions. But alas i cannot go in to your mind and flip the tolkien passion switch.<P>and i must say that i enjoy being called a tolkienite though i do not associate with other tolkienites for sheer lack of them.

[Gandalf_theGrey]

Hail and Well Met, <B>Lady_Báin: </B> <P>* applauds * <P>You've expressed my sentiments exactly, and far more eloquently than I might have put it.<P>Gandalf the Grey

[maikafanawen]

Lady Báin, and Gandalf the Grey, I could not agree with you more.

[Iarwain]

I'm touched by everyone's care about me , and maybe someday in the distant future, I will rediscover those jewels which I once loved so much. But for now, I think you're right in that I don't really wish to revisit my old feelings for a while. Perhaps, someday, in the next decade, I will come back to find my passion for Middle-Earth, waiting there for me to find it. But though that time will come, it will come later on. <P>Gratefully, Thoughtfully,<BR>Iarwain

Answer to Iarwain: Did I ever say "Frodo Lives"? No, but I had the button. Plus the poster & Songs of Middle Earth & other supportive literature. Most of it gone now--many years ago.<P>But, when I began re-reading LOTR, I remember thinking how fine it was. So many later fantasy writers copy the Middle Earth without the Professor's way with words. (As they say in California, "Duh".)<P>Fads come & go but some things are classic.

[Iarwain]

Thats "totally awesome, dude!" Must have been very interesting to live at such times. Sometimes, I wish I had been born in the thirties, just for the atmosphere, and to see all that great stuff happen (even though I would be really old right now). <P>Chuckling,<BR>Iarwain

[Iarwain]

The subject of the thread has incidentally switched from my original subject to me personally (although, I must admit that I'm quite flattered at everyone's caring behaviour ). I would still like to know what many people might think, yea or nay, as to the existence of mass conventions and other additional attractions for those interested and consumed in LotR. <P>I'd like to make a list of the overly dramatic/normal things I've said so far in this thread, A sort of closing statement. Here it begins:<P>I reguard the idea of international conventions and "quests for the ring" as a frightening thing. I would not be interested in a heirarchy of fans, or mass conventions. The thought disturbs me. Such things take away from the integrity of Tolkien's works. It reduces LotR from higher learning to childish obsession. If we let this happen, I fear I will cease to love Middle Earth. For if others rise up to and destroy it with additions and attractions, all purity will be lost. It will cease to be a scholarly work. It will become as Star Wars and Harry Potter and Star Trek. It will be left a story; a name without meaning. And the meaning is what lies truly dear to my heart. The fans should ask themselves whether or not when the story is made available to the average person as a film, it is not turned into an average tale, and therefore subjected to all of the exploitations of average tales. You must be sure, always, that the Lord of the Rings, a true literary masterpiece is not turned into the accompanying novels to Lord of the Rings, a cinema milestone. We should not allow the spirit of Tolkien's works be overrun by general knowledge and exploitation. Stereotypes, especially negative ones, I reguard as degrading to the novels, and I hope that these will not grow into widespread generalization. And, as "international conventions" and "quests to destroy the ring" would most likely fuel such generalizations, the mere thought of their existence, once again, terrifies me. <P>That sums it all up. Does anyone have anything to comment on?<P>edit: sorry about the double post <p>[ January 08, 2003: Message edited by: Iarwain ]

[doug*platypus]

I for one don't believe that doing something geeky makes you a geek. But if it does, then you my young friend are a geek. And so am I. Best thing to do is to accept it, and move on from there. So long as what you do is within your own limits, and you don't cross whatever line you set for yourself, you'll be fine. For example, I myself wouldn't wear a sword or a cloak. And I don't try to convert people to The Lord of the Rings. I only really talk about Tolkien to people that I know will appreciate it, and even then of course there's different levels. But that's just my line, you may have your own, or you may choose not to have one at all! The most important thing is to not let other people affect the way you live your life too much. Who wants to be completely normal? Not me. I think that if everyone spent countless hours of their lives reading and talking about Tolkien, I might not want to do it anymore and would probably just go surfing.

[Birdland]

(Birdie puts on burlap "wraith cloak" and reaches out claw-like hands) "Iarwain! Come back, come back. To Mordor we will take you!"<P>Nah, just kidding! (Did I scare ya?) But honestly, don't work yourself up too much about all this. I've watched with horror through the years the "Disney-fication" of many of my favorite classic books. The hype dies down. It always does. It just seems bigger these days, what with the Internet allowing you to see the ravings of film-induced Tolkien mania.<P>If the Internet had been available in the 60s, I might have had the same reaction towards "Camelot mania" caused by the release of the musical and Disney's "Sword In the Stone". "Where's T.H. White in all of this?" I wondered. But all of that died away, too. (Except for the occasional Kennedy documentary, and nobody seems to remember why.)<P>I've made it a sort of mission to remind young minds that there are wonderful, glorious books hidden behind those cartoons in their VHS collection. "Look! Barrie! Salten! Kipling! White! Wonderful books! Forget that Disney dreck and try these!" Sometimes it actually works. <P>In a few years you may be called upon to play a similar role as a standard bearer for the good Professor. In the meantime: sit back, don't sweat the small stuff, and remember that wearing cheesy cloaks and rubber elf ears will come and go, but great literature lives forever.<P>P.S. - At least I <I>liked</I> the film version this time. I still shudder when I think of Richard Harris' "Arthur". <p>[ January 15, 2003: Message edited by: Birdland ]

[Child of the 7th Age]

Yes, this hype will come and go, just as happened in the sixties. I saw that happen. But the books themselves will be around forever, to be rediscovered again by a later generation. The films will certainly leave impressions about the edges of JRRT's writings, but nothing more than that. <P>To be truthful, I am quite curious what will happen to the Downs about nine months after the release of RotK. No, I certainly believe it will be here in all its glory. I do prophecy that things will be bit quieter, especially within the RPG forums. It will never go back totally to the small, close knit group before all us folk flooded in through the gates. But I wouldn't be surprised to see a half-way point, a bit of the old and a bit of the new peacefully co-existing.

[Laialthriel]

Child of the 7th Age~ I as well have been wondering about the future of the Downs myself. I am not worried about it, but rather <I>interested</I> to see how it all plays out after RotK is released. My prediction is that we will lose a lot of the 'new' fans, and I do not say this disrespectfully as I am a pretty new recruit myself. No offense to anyone who falls under these categories, but right now, a <I>lot</I> of fans have been caught up in the LotR world because of Orlando, Elijah, Viggo, etc. They are all caught up in the romantic fantasy of it all (well, I guess we all are, aren't we? ) and are now joining a lot of LotR clubs, Orli adoring group, and the like. <P>It will not last, my friends. When something is being hyped like our beloved legend is, there are going to be crowds flocking to it. Which is the general idea of hype, right? So now a lot of people are liking the fact they have something new to talk to all of their friends about and they like the movies, so they decide to go online to see what other cool things they can find about this so naturally...they come to the Downs! (I get some brownie points for that, right? j/k) <BR>But when the final movie is out and the craziness dies down, and some new good-looking guy shows up in a different movie, they're going to fade away. Do not worry about losing any of the specialness of your own experience with ME. You can choose to let the idea of 'Ringers' scare you out of it if you so desire, but I pray you don't. <P>There is a large line, as you all well know, between the true, Tolkien-loving enthusiasts, and the more whimsical (again, <I>no offense</I> to <I>anyone </I>is intended) newly 'addicted' fans. But we need to make sure we don't cut off any up and coming true fans by throwing the baby out with the bath water. <P>Hey, they're having a lot of fun with LotR, and more power to them. I was introduced to Tolkien through the movies, and am now an adorer of his work. I will love the world of ME forever now and I am truly grateful. I know there are more like me in the crowds of 'newbies' out there and it's for them that we patiently explain that Mordor is not the name of that 'big bad guy who wore the Ring', in hopes that they too can come learn about, and enjoy the amazing world of ME. <P>I mean, that is why we read these books. Right? We love them and truly enjoy them. That's what it is all about.<P> ~*Laialthriel*~

[Iarwain]

You make good sense guys! It just remains to outlast the storm which I waited for so long. <P>Am I a "nerd" then? <P><BR>Later dudes, the waves await!,<BR>Iarwain