Who knows their trolls?

[Alkanoonion]

Article forthcoming....

What an interesting discussion I thought that others might also enjoy revisiting or reading for the first time as much as I did. BTW did I miss the Article Forthcoming?

[Man-of-the-Wold]

Oh My, Oh My, the Barrow-Wight Comes Alive.

In any case, I would like to step back. Basic facts about Trolls, some indisputable, some my spin:

1. Bred in mockery of Ents.

2. Probably like Ents, in that they are never really numerous, possibly never exceeding more than few thousand and not multiplying much from the First Age of Sun onwards.

3. But probably much more plentiful in the Ages of Twilight before Sunlight as we would know it.

4. Females? Possibly never had them, in that they are (re-)produced somewhat spontaneously or by dark powers such as Morgoth, Sauron or Angmar (hence their perponderance in the Ettenmoors).

5. Essentially, do not die naturally, but may be slain, die through clumsiness, or by exposure to sunlight, w/ or w/o SPF 15.

6. I don't see Trolls being made with any breeding through Ents, Men or Orcs, but rather they were ALL derived from stone in combination with the animation of some ancient creature or monster.

7. They are very much like Ents in that they vary tremendously from individual to individual, perhaps based on geologic forms and rock types, as opposed to the tree species that define Ent-persons. This then would give rise to a basic typology among observers, because Trolls tended to associate with like kinds and kill each other, directing greater hostility at each other the greater the physical differences. Therefore, I posit that much of the categories in the books arise from very loosely based information. Again, I doubt that Middle-Earth had many “Troll-ologists.”

Similarly, I would contend that no Troll could "naturally" endure the sunlight. In the Battle of Unnumbered Tears, Morgoth undoubtedly could have darkened the sky much as Sauron did for his battles, and in addition to that, Morgoth or even Gothmog may have been able to exercise a power over certain contingencies of Trolls that allowed them to avoid turning to stone in such partial sunlight.

The Olog-Hai represent perhaps Sauron's success much later at perfecting and standardizing this feat, so that certain Trolls were created that could regularly roam and harass folks during the daytime in the outskirts of Dol Guldor and the Mordor (probably under less than clear, bright sunlight), if the Eye's will was bent to some degree on their activity.

I think the term Olog-Hai as offered in the LotR Appendix represents a general observation by the Wise regarding this development, and that this Black Speech term was perhaps learned from yells and shouts at clashes in Ithilien or Mirkwood, at which Men or Wood Elves fought with Orcs in league with such Trolls. Not unlike Aragorn's mock parley with the self-aggrandizing Uruk-Hai at the Hornburg.

Whether these Olog-Hai trolls were significantly different in other ways from other trolls (past or present) or notably similar to one another seems to be unknown, except that they tended to be on the large size even for trolls.

But I would say that references like Hill-Troll and Mountain-Troll do not necessarily differentiate an Olog-Hai from any other such trolls, and may represent a casual overlay of common terminology that was applicable to Olog-Hai groups, as well nocturnally restricted trolls, depending on general features (coloration, body shape, etc.) and the terrain of the location where they were encountered. Also, the hammering by Grond took place prior to dawn.

In the course of the LotR, I think Tolkien is trying to avoid giving us too precise of a system for categorizing trolls or any other evil creature. Rather, he is giving us a flavor of how everyday Men, Hobbits, Elves, Dwarves, and so forth labeled and reacted to these creatures, in a way that is not necessarily consistent, except that it is clouded by natural fear and legend/rumor.

[Similarly, we find "Uruk-Hai" used in reference to developments out of Sauron's fastnesses, as well as breeding efforts by Saruman, such that it is hard to say who steals, uses or expands on whose evil work, not to mention the jumble of terms about half-orcs, goblin-men, hobgoblins and so forth, which are never at all clarified or fully distinguished from Uruk-Hai, except perhaps in HoME. I would also note how the chiefs of the Orc squads from Cirith Ungol and Minas Morgul that Sam overhears seem to consider themselves to be Uruk-Hai, but they hark back to some time that they personally remember, which seems to be none other than the Dark Age when Sauron held sway over most of Middle-Earth. So, that even though the term Uruk-Hai is applied to large, non-daylight challenged Orcs of the late Third Age, they may have been based on types going back much farther in time. Perhaps, Sauron took existing orcs and endowed them with special powers, that then Saruman enhanced with or used as part of breeding experiments with men and women. There may have Uruk-Hai, and then there were Uruk-Hai. Notably, Grishnakh is large if squat, but also of much greater cunning and rank in the greater scheme of things than Saruman’s group of seemingly new-sprung Uruk-Hai]

Still, I think as a matter of physical form and location, terms like Cave-Troll, Hill-Troll, Mountain-Troll and Stone-Troll (who may have been inexplicitly more intelligent than other trolls, but especially prone to turn to Stone with hardly a glimmer of morning sunlight), represent relatively distinct groups in the Third Age, and towards the end of that era some of them could (in certain cases East of Anduin) have been Olog-Hai's, too.

There is also reference to Snow-Trolls in the case Helm of the Mark, such that that may have meant an extinct group that frequented the White Mountains during and after the Second Age, and though perhaps not mentioned explicitly, there could have been cliff trolls, river trolls and with corresponding appearances and lairs.

[ November 02, 2002: Message edited by: Man-of-the-Wold ]

just a couple quick questions....see if anyone can help.....if orcs are mockeries of elves/men and trolls are mockeries of ents, then wouldn't trolls be more tree-like? Orcs seem quite mannish (or elvish) also if there is Olog-Hai, what are the trolls cross bred with? If Uruk-Hais are orcs bred with men etc. Just some wonderings

[lindil]

I wish to add a few footnotes to this venerable and enlightening thread:

Man of the Wold: posted many months back

Whether these Olog-Hai trolls were significantly different in other ways from other trolls (past or present) or notably similar to one another seems to be unknown, except that they tended to be on the large size even for trolls.

In the App. F a mention of the Olog-Hai being unusually 'cunning'. and that they were previously unseen, i,e, a new tyoe of troll. It also list a few other attributes that set them apart.

Mauthuk posted:

just a couple quick questions....see if anyone can help.....if orcs are mockeries of elves/men and trolls are mockeries of ents, then wouldn't trolls be more tree-like? Orcs seem quite mannish (or elvish) also if there is Olog-Hai, what are the trolls cross bred with? If Uruk-Hais are orcs bred with men etc. Just some wonderings

I think the early tendency for Tolkienists to take Treebeard at his word have been dampned by JRRT's Letters [not sure of the # offhand] wherein he says Treebeard 'was not one of the wise' meaning, I take it, he was not speaking with Authoritative knowledge derived from the Ainur, and that his Troll/Ent parallel may have been 'common wisdom' or speculation, but was not the truth of it. JRRT says this flatly about the elves-->orcs in HoM-E X 'Myths Transformed' sectinon, and then goes on to back -pedal.

We do not know, and JRRT himself seemingly gave up at ever reaching a decisive answer for ORc [and thus by exstension] Troll origins.

As for what was the extra genetic ingredients for the Olog-Hai?

I would speculate either men or Uruk-Hai. probably the latter. But it is only my opinion, and not based on a shred of supprtable text.

----

Also in case anyone was wondering where Mr. Underhill's magnum opus is see the articles link at the bottum of every [?] forum page, or go to the www.Barrowdowns.com page and find the link.

I believe it is called 'Olog-Hai fidelity'.

As a final note, I apologize to Underhill for missing this [along w/ so many other greath threads] as I had my nose firmly buried in the Silm project/Forum at the time.
I would have encouraged him abit, by siding with his reading of the evidence.

An awesome thread overall, and may all 'youngins' take note at the civility, scholarship, persistence and vigour!

Amazing what lurks neath nearly every line in the texts... [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]

ps - as far as I know we are still in the dark as to the contents of the unpublished section of the Nirnaeth which CJRT [and Underhill] refer to. It may or may not contain a first age reference to Trolls.

If I understand all of this aright, I think Mr. Underhill has forever earned a place in the realm of Barrow-Downs scholarship with his research to show we, as of yet have no first or second age writings by JRRT that mention Trolls. Yes they are mentioned as having existed earlier in App. F, but we only see them in a dubious Silmarillion passage. My personal guess is that the Troll insertion is a result of a note or slip of paper with something like 'Trolls slain by hurin in Nirnaeth' or somesuch.

I give CJRT the benefit of the doubt that he would not create something whole cloth unless the need was truly there, as in the case of the Ruin of Doriath. However it would of course be nice to have some dare I use the word - 'closure'.

[ July 26, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]