Who knows their trolls?

[galpsi]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Unquiet Dead
Posts: 1043</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

Kittle's magisterial effort to oil the waters would seem to obviate further discussion on the topic. Kudos!

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000201>galpsi</A> Edited by: 9/13/00 2:10:09 pm

[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
Posts: 47</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

Well done, Kittle. I guess Olog-hai's will have to go down in history with other ingenious but too-late-to-make-a-difference designs like the German flying wing bomber.

</p>

[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 64</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

Alright, Wight, I know this thread is musty and that your article on the topic has now become BD &quot;canon&quot;, but after re-reading the Silmarillion for the the first time in (at least) fifteen years during my recent vacation, I'm not sure I'm convinced by your argument that there were pre-Third Age sun-resistant trolls.

The reference you make from Of the Fifth Battle to clinch your argument is far from conclusive. In fact, as nearly as I could discern, this is the sole reference to trolls in the whole Silma -- and it clearly states that Hurin is battling the trolls at night (&quot;Day shall come again.&quot. Later (after sunrise??), Hurin is finally overcome by multitudes of orcs, not trolls. The &quot;sun went down beyond the sea&quot; only after Hurin had done enough hacking to pile up so many orc corpses around him that he was finally buried beneath them and then was bound and dragged off to Angband by Gothmog.

If there were indeed sun-resistant trolls in the First or Second ages, why wouldn't Morgoth have used them as shock troops a la Sauron? I'll take up the flag and charge forward again to contend that the overwhelming circumstantial evidence seems to point to Sauron's trolls being Olog-hai. It's not unreasonable to assume that Gothmog's troll-guard were sun-vulnerable -- the battle was fought on the plain in front of Angband, within easy march for the trolls to come up out of Angband's pits to act as fresh reinforcements once the sun had gone down.

The little foreword preceding the appendices states that &quot;their principal purpose is to illustrate the War of the Ring and its origins, and to fill up some of the gaps in the main story&quot;... and that's just what the reference in Appendix F has done.

</p>

[burrahobbit]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hidden Spirit
Posts: 454</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

I think that Hurin is using a metaphor. It seems like the best explanation at this time.

What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>

[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 65</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

I don't think so, burra. The previous paragraph describes the decimation of the remnant of Hurin and Huor's forces until only Hurin remained &quot;as the sun westered on the sixth day&quot;.

It may sound outrageous to think that Hurin fought all day, hacked trolls through the night, then kept on chopping orcs through a good part of the next day, but reading the description of the Fifth Battle, one gets the impression that the fighting went on virtually nonstop from at least the fourth day. Remember too that Morgoth had given orders that Hurin was to be taken alive.

</p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1386</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

He who uses the words of the Barrow-Wight as canon has probably strayed from the path of good sense.... but....

I believe that 'Day shall come' had nothing to do with the time of day. It was just his way of saying 'Your time is gonna come.'

And it does say that he was slaying trolls, his axe smoking in their black blood, until the Orcs grappled him.

Then Gothmog bound him and dragged him away.

Thus ended Nirnaeth Arnoediad, as the sun went down beyond the sea.

I think its clear here that the word 'thus' was referring to the capture of Hurin, and after that 'the sun went down'. I can't read this any other way though I have been trying all afternoon.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 66</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

The language seems carefully chosen to me.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;There as the sun westered on the sixth day, and the shadow of Ered Wethrin grew dark, Huor fell pierced with a venomed arrow in his eye...&quot;<hr></blockquote>
The sun westered. Ered Wethrin grew dark. This seems a clear description of sunset.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> I believe that 'Day shall come' had nothing to do with the time of day. It was just his way of saying 'Your time is gonna come.'<hr></blockquote>
Unless you think that the trolls couldn't stand the light of the sun. Then Hurin is crying defiantly that he's going to hold out against these trolls lined up against him until the sun comes up and they're forced to retreat.

Then there seems to be a shift in the battle, to me:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;...the Orcs grappled him with their hands, which clung to him still though he hewed off their arms; and ever their numbers renewed, until at last he fell buried beneath them.&quot;<hr></blockquote>
I think it would take some time to heap up so many Orc corpses around you that you're eventually overcome because you're buried by them. The trolls seem to have either all been killed or else retired by this point.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Thus ended Nirnaeth Arnoediad, as the sun went down beyond the sea.

I think its clear here that the word 'thus' was referring to the capture of Hurin, and after that 'the sun went down'. I can't read this any other way though I have been trying all afternoon. <hr></blockquote>
Personally, I picture in my mind the gates of Angband clanging closed as the sun goes down on the last day, with the laughter of Gothmog echoing from behind the iron doors into the distance. Thus ending the Nirnaeth Arnoediad.

Anyway, this slim, controversial paragraph doesn't seem like conclusive enough evidence for the replay judge to overturn the ruling on the field -- that only Olog-hai are sun-resistant.


</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000005>Mister Underhill</A> at: 10/2/00 2:41:49 pm

[The Barrow-Wight]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1387</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

I agree, the language seems chosen carefully. But somehow you are separating two events that are obviously (and carefully) connected...two sentences... 1)Hurin is dragged away; followed by 2)the battle ending and sun setting. ( the 3rd sentence says 'Night fell in Hithlum'). If you really want to read it literally, Gothmog had time to drag Hurin all the way to Angband before the sun went down. But adding an entire sunrise and day between the capture of Hurin and the end of the battle is just not implied or suggested by the text. Forcing the Olog-hai references into this instance just doesn't fit. Square pegs, round holes.

Perhaps the Olog-hai were the only sun-proof trolls of their day? And those of the first age were destroyed with their master? Just a though that would jive with both theories.



The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 67</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

I don't know. Am I crazy? How are others reading this?
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;There as the sun westered on the sixth day, and the shadow of Ered Wethrin grew dark, Huor fell pierced with a venomed arrow in his eye, and all the valiant Men of Hador were slain about him in a heap; and the Orcs hewed their heads and piled them as a mound of gold in the sunset.

Last of all Hurin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed; and it is sung that the axe smoked in the black blood of the troll-guard of Gothmog until it withered, and each time that he slew Hurin cried: ' Aure entuluva! Day shall come again!' Seventy times he uttered that cry; but they took him at last alive, by the command of Morgoth, for the Orcs grappled with him with their hands, which clung to him still though he hewed off their arms; and ever their numbers were renewed, until at last he fell buried beneath them. Then Gothmog bound him and dragged him to Angband with mockery.

Thus ended the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, as the sun went down beyond the sea. Night fell in Hithlum, and there came a great storm of wind out of the West.&quot; (All emphasis mine, obviously)<hr></blockquote>

Sorry for the repitition and the long quote, but maybe others who don't have the Silma handy can get in on the action without having to look it up.

From the first paragraph, it seems clear that the sun was setting as Huor bought it. After that, Hurin slays seventy. Seventy trolls, not counting Orcs?. I would read it that way, arguing that his battle cry was directed at the trolls. But even taking the conservative view, at a rate of one troll or orc per minute, it would take him roughly an hour to do all that hacking. Wouldn't the sun be way down by that time? Not even counting Gothmog taking him, binding, him, and dragging him back across the plain of Ard-galen to Angband all the way from the Fens of Serech.

So in my reading, the chronology goes something like this:

-Huor and the rest of the guys buy it at sunset.
-Hurin slays trolls through the night. By morning, all are dead or else have been forced to retreat.
-Then come the Orcs. Hurin slays so many of those over the course of the morning that their corpse are piled up and finally he's overcome by the sheer numbers of the dead.
-He's bound by Gothmog, who transports him to Angband, finally reaching the fortress later that day as the sun is going down again.

I can't understand why Hurin would be crying &quot;Day shall come again!&quot; when it's already daytime. I tried to get a literal translation of the Elvish, without complete success, unfortunately, but I did find that &quot;aur&quot;, the root that &quot;Aure&quot; is evidently derived from, means not only &quot;day&quot; but can also be interpreted as &quot;sunlight&quot; and &quot;morning&quot;. Instead of supposing that Hurin is making some abstract metaphorical reference, why not take his desperate and defiant battle cry at its literal meaning?

Further, trolls are conspicuously absent during other daylight action. They're not mentioned when Gothmog meets Fingon (another Balrog helps him out on that occasion), nor are they mentioned in the laundry list of forces that empty out of Angband on the morning of the sixth day (wolves, wolfriders, Balrogs, and dragons all do get a mention).

I reiterate my argument that this paragraph isn't nearly definitive enough to clinch the argument that daylight trolls existed pre-Third Age.



</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000005>Mister Underhill</A> at: 10/2/00 7:00:57 pm

[The Barrow-Wight]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1389</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

Again, I say you are forcing the issue rather than reading the text. You are inserting large periods of unaccounted-for time in order to support the Olag-hai theory. Forget the Olog-hai. Forget everything but the text .... then read my last post and it is plain. Only when you try to deny what you see in order to support your presumptions can you possibly insert so much into so little.

As for trolls mentioned at other times, there are no other mentions of trolls in the Silm. (are there?) So that's certainly no support for the arguement that they couldn't walk in the sun (or could). This is our one example.

But dang! This is a good discussion, ain't it!? We should try Balrog wings next! <img src=smile.gif ALT="">


The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 68</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

Auuuggghhhhh! This IS a good discussion. I <u>love</u> the troll thread. But it seems that I'm the one who's reading the text and you who's not! (...he grumbled). Doesn't the sun set twice during the passage in question? If the sun is setting when Huor buys it and Hurin is being spirited into Angband 70 trolls later, doesn't that mean a considerable span of time has passed?

I didn't notice another troll reference anywhere else in the Silma, but I would argue that, if anything, this seems to support the theory that they weren't sun resistant in the Elder Days. If they were, Morgoth would have used 'em, and we would have read about 'em. Troops that turn to stone at the first hint of daylight aren't very practical except maybe for night-fights on your own doorstep.

Appendix F directly contradicts your interpretation. Notice the language here:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> In their beginning far back in the twilight of the Elder Days, these were creatures of dull and lumpish nature...

then...

Unlike the older race of the Twilight they [the Olog-hai] could endure the Sun, so long as the will of Sauron held sway over them.<hr></blockquote>

Take that! Aure entuluva!!

</p>

[burrahobbit]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hidden Spirit
Posts: 462</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

If there are any other mentions, they aren't in the index. But neither is the troll-gaurd of Gothmog.

What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1390</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

I don't see two sunsets .... I see two relatively simultaneous events that both ended before the same sunset. They were not sequential events, occuring directly one after the other, but rather battles that were occuring at the same time. Huor catches and an arrow in the eye and somtime after that Hurin fights the 70 trolls and then orcs finally wear him down and drag him away as the sun finally goes down.

But once again to the text:
If 'day shall come again' means its night, why does the sun go down after he says it? You are injecting a sunrise and at least 12 hours of unaccounted for time.

And while we're counting:
'...on the fourth day of the war, there began the Nirnaeth Arnoediad...'
and
'.... as the sun westered on the sixth day...'

There are four pages of battle between these days. But between the 6th day mention and the alleged 7th day there is a paragraph describing the battle of one. Did this battle last through 12 hours of darkness and then 12 more hours passed to drag Hurin to Angband and the the sun set? Not likely.

And let's not forget a point from my Balrog article that asks why a (supposedly) winged creature would need a guard of land-bound creatures. If they were also limited to night action they would be doubly useless as a guard.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000002>RKittle</A>&nbsp; <IMG SRC=http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/oneringicon.gif BORDER=0 WIDTH=10 HEIGHT=10> at: 10/3/00 7:08:06 am

[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 69</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> If 'day shall come again' means its night, why does the sun go down after he says it? You are injecting a sunrise and at least 12 hours of unaccounted for time.<hr></blockquote>
The sun goes down before he says it, I say. Huor falls as the sun sets. Then Hurin makes his last stand through the night, I say, crying his battle cry.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> '...on the fourth day of the war, there began the Nirnaeth Arnoediad...'
and
'.... as the sun westered on the sixth day...'

There are four pages of battle between these days. But between the 6th day mention and the alleged 7th day there is a paragraph describing the battle of one. Did this battle last through 12 hours of darkness and then 12 more hours passed to drag Hurin to Angband and the the sun set? Not likely.<hr></blockquote>
I'm not entirely sure what your argument is here. That the description is too slim to account for this amount of time? That's easily explainable by the fact that the only action to account for is Hurin single-handedly taking on wave after wave of foes. I think the time can be accounted for. I think it's less likely that &quot;the sun westered&quot;, Huor was slain, then Hurin managed to kill at least seventy (probably more), then was overcome, bound, and sprinted off to Angband in less time than it would take for night to fall. In your scenario, trolls must have been lining up single-file so that he could kill three or four at a stroke to get his work done so quickly. It clearly states that Huor's fall and Hurin's last stand weren't simultaneous action. &quot;Last of all, Hurin stood alone.&quot; and so on.

The terse Silma descriptions leave much to the imagination. I try to imagine the scene. I imagine Hurin, covered in gore, probably commanding a small piece of high ground, wielding his two-handed axe. I imagine trolls and orcs reluctant to attack such a fearsome foe with corpses of their fellows piled up about him, and Gothmog having to whip them forward to get them to attack. Finally, after Hurin falls, there's some wrapping up that Gothmog has to do. Organize the forces, gather equipment, bury the dead maybe, get everything ready to march back to Angband. Mock Hurin a bit. Then march back to Angband -- not just Gothmog himself, but a whole battle-weary host. I think by the time all of this took place, a seventh day could very reasonably have passed.

I went to the bookstore this morning to see if I could find elucidation somewhere in HoME. Alas, I could only find two early accounts of Hurin's last stand, one in The Shaping of Middle-Earth, the other in The Book of Lost Tales, neither more clear or detailed than the Silma account -- though, notably, in both accounts the trolls aren't mentioned at all, and it says instead that Hurin slew &quot;well nigh one hundred Orcs&quot; before he was taken. I admit that this was by no means an exhaustive search.

You say tom-a-to, and I say tom-ah-to. I still think my interpretation is more reasonable, and that this evidence isn't enough to stipulate that there were pre-Third Age sun-resistant trolls. The LotR and The Hobbit, works that were published with JRRT's stamp of approval (or at least, his best editorial work), have to overrule this inconclusive bit of evidence from a volume that even its editor admits may not represent the author's truest intentions.



</p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1393</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

The orc heads hewed by Huor 'piled...as a mound of gold in the sunset.'... Not after the sunset, in the sunset... meaning as the sun went down.

I'm reading that Hurin fought in the same sunset. You are adding time and orc slaying rate times, wrap-up time, etc. (all unaccounted for in the text) all in a forced effort to match the Olog-hai reference in the appendice F. Whereas I add nothing. I simply read the words.

I'm not pretending to know how the trolls and orcs attacked, their formations or their actions. I only know that 70 trolls were dead, Hurin was caught and the sun at last went down.

Since we've both reiterated our stance here many times, lets call it a truce and end the debate between us. Someone else can challenge one or both of us if they have the notion.

If you feel obligated to state your stance one more time, I understand. I can't seem to stop either <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

[quam]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 76</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

as this is no longer a discussion about the different sorts of trolls,but rather sth. about hurin and the nirnaeth arnoediad,and the way it is written in the silmarillion(remember christopher could have changed that part!) wouldn't it be better to move this to the silma revised forum?

My tolkien favorites are <a href="http://www.tolkientrail.com/"target="web">the Tolkientrail</A>(michael martinez loved it!), http://www.barrowdowns.com/The Barrow-downs</A> and its http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/forum</a> and http://pub24.ezboard.com/bmountgundabad/Mount Gundabad</A>
"Quis,Quae,Quid
Quem,Quam,Quid"
</p>

[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 70</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> The orc heads hewed by Huor 'piled...as a mound of gold in the sunset.'... Not after the sunset, in the sunset... meaning as the sun went down. <hr></blockquote>
It was the heads of the men of Hador that were piled in the sunset, dang it. <u>Then</u> Hurin stood alone... Ah, dabnabbit, truce. <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

My point is mainly to introduce a reasonable doubt on this issue. To bring the thread back to the previous issue -- where, oh where have the Olog-hai gone? -- the linch-pin of your argument (and your article) is that pre-Olog-hai sun-resistant trolls existed in the First and/or Second Ages. I deferred earlier on the assumption that there was ample proof of such trolls in Silma, and only after my recent re-read did I begin to question. I'm not trying to force anything to fit except into the framework of what JRRT himself wrote -- the Olog-hai were the first sun-resistant trolls, even counting the ones from the Elder Days.

Everyone seems willing to throw out the Appendix F statement, not to mention allusions in the main text to new, tougher trolls that were abroad, not to mention clear instances of Sauron's trolls fighting in daylight, as irrelevant. I guess I'll just have to throw in the towel on this one with a quizzical scratch of the head.


</p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1395</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

Only if we decided to discuss it in comparison with the HoME (which Underhill didn't find (and I would have never even had a clue where to look)). So this is still a strictly Silmarillion / LotR discussion.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 71</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

I can't stop!! At this rate, I'll reach Wight status just on this thread!

This came up on the random quote:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;Aurë entuluva!
day shall come again.&quot;
Húrin each of the 70 times he slew a Troll at the Nirnaeth Arnoediad<hr></blockquote>
Your interpretation and mine agree here. He slew 70 trolls. Then umpteen Orcs. Don't you have to account for that time somehow? The text is spare and stingy as to details, but isn't it implicit that it took <u>some</u> time to do all that hacking? Can't I get you to agree to that much, anyway?

</p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1396</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

I can't deny that killing a lot of trolls might take some time.... but the sun doesn't just plop beneath the horizon. Let's say 3-4 trolls a minute (I'm sure the rate was probably was higher...he was hackin' and stackin')... that's 15-20 minutes. Then they round him up and drag him off. The sun disappears at last. We have the natural progression of 'sunset' to 'Night fell.'

Perhaps that seems like a short time to compress all that action into. But its more likely than an entire night and day passing. See, the whole idea of Hurin battling in the dark means that an entire day (after the supposed night battle) must be missing from the account of the battle.

See! Look what you made me do! I can't stop!! <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 72</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

Must... stop... troll thread..............

Ugh. Can't do it. Once more into the breach!
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Let's say 3-4 trolls a minute (I'm sure the rate was probably was higher...he was hackin' and stackin')... that's 15-20 minutes. Then they round him up and drag him off.<hr></blockquote>
Not so. Then he starts on the Orcs. JRRT doesn't give us any hard numbers here (We need to get a list of questions together and then hold a seance or something. Balrog wings and Olog-hai at the top of the list. We'll throw in that dot question while we're at it.), but he clearly kills more than a few. As I mentioned, some HoME versions say he slew &quot;well nigh a hundred Orcs&quot;. Anyway, &quot;Ever their numbers were renewed, until at last he fell buried beneath them.&quot; That's a few Orcs.

Also, I think your slayage rate is a bit optimistic, even for mighty Hurin. As an experiment, go outside and try splitting seventy pieces of defenseless firewood with an axe (with attendant battle cry each time) and see how long it takes you. Now imagine you're trying to split bloodthirsty beasts that are taller than Shaq with skin as hard as stone. Now try doing it after having already battled without any appreciable rest for at least 36 hours (I don't see a letup in the battle from the fifth day onward: &quot;On the fifth day as night fell, and they were still far from Ered Wethrin, the Orcs surrounded the host of Hithlum, and they fought until day...&quot; Fifth day all day and until around sunset on day six equals 36 hours). And that's all just as a warm up for the Orcs.

You're also forgetting to add time for the trip back to Angband from the Fens of Serech. I don't know how far it is across Ard-galen, but in &quot;Of Beleriand and Its Realms&quot;, it says, &quot;Before the gates of Angband filth and desolation spread southward for many miles over the wide plain of Ard-galen.&quot; I don't think it was an easy jaunt of a few minutes. Plus, I don't know why Gothmog would hotfoot it back to Angband in time for sunset. I imagine him taking time to rub it in Hurin's face (&quot;with mockery&quot, maybe parading him in front of the hewn heads of his kinsmen, perhaps? Too much time to make it back to Angband for night on the sixth day.

And, check out this tantalizing bit, from &quot;Of the Ruin of Doriath&quot;, spoken by Hurin outside the closed gates of Gondor:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Hurin stood in despair before the silent cliffs of Echoriath, and the westering sun, piercing the clouds, stained his white hair with red... 'Turgon, Turgon, remember the Fen of Serech! O Turgon, will you not hear in your hidden halls?' But there was no sound save the wind in the dry grasses. 'Even so they hissed in Serech at the sunset,' he said; and as he spoke the sun went behind the Mountains of Shadow, and a darkness fell about him, and the wind ceased, and there was silence in the waste.

(Emphasis added)<hr></blockquote>
Notice the similarity in the language. &quot;Westering sun&quot;, followed immediately by night falling. Don't these words from Hurin's own mouth prove that he was in the Fens when the sun went down on the sixth day, and not in Angband?

Finally, Mr. Wight, you've once again sidestepped my arguments concerning text in the LotR by ignoring them. What of the statements that old time trolls were sun-vulnerable?

Mr. Underhill collapsed upon the field of battle, spent. Blackness took him, and he knew no more...

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000005>Mister Underhill</A> at: 10/3/00 4:45:26 pm

[The Barrow-Wight]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1397</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

I quit!

I could argue every point including the one from the LotR and never even mention the sidestepping you did earlier (or more like plain ignoring certain lines I wrote). Woops, I mentioned it. <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

I will not concede, but I will desist.

Please write an article and I will gladly post it at The Barrow-Downs. As I said earlier, I certainly don't consider myself canonical... heck, i'm barely knowledgeable. And I'm definitely one who will back down from an incorrect stance. But I just feel your arguement is shakier than mine (which you have shown is not as stable as I had first thought.. but just a little <img src=wink.gif ALT=""> ). Write an article disputing mine. I think people would love to read it. But don't write it attacking my theory... write it supporting yours. I'm looking for a point/counter-point, not a 'Jane, you ignorant slut.' (I hope that reference is understood...I'll explain if not. Old Saturday Night Live skit where a point/counter-point discussion is really just a name-calling session <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> )

I'm pretty proud we've kept civil.

Anyways.... are you interested in having your thoughts published?

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 74</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

Dang, I thought I might convince you with that Hurin quote. Did you see my edit? I think it posted around the time you posted yours. Re: &quot;the westering sun&quot;. Uh, I guess I could pull together all these arguments into an article. Of course I won't attack you (you fool!). I hope none of my posts took on an attacking tone, and I apologize if they did. What the heck. It's just a bunch of books. I'm not going to slam dunk anybody over it.

BTW, I get the SNL ref. I'm one of the codgers here on the board, don't forget.




</p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1399</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

Sorry, Underhill.... you never took an offensive tone. This has been loads of fun. Write that article!

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 221</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

Weighing in late on this one, long after the waters have already been muddied, but I found something on point (I think, this thread has been as pointy as a pincushion).

JRRT, discussing the issue of &quot;evil cannot create&quot; said this:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;I am not sure about Trolls. I think they are mere 'counterfeits', and hence (though here I am of course only using elements of old barbarous mythmaking that had no 'aware' metaphysic) they return to mere stone images when not in the dark. But there are other sorts of Trolls besides these rather ridiculous, if brutal, Stone-Trolls, for which other origins are suggested. Of course (since inevitably my world is highly imperfect even on its own plane nor made wholly coherent - our Real World does not appear to be wholly coherent either; and I am actually not myself convinced that, though in every world on every plane all must ultimately be under the Will of God, even in ours there are not some 'tolerated' sub-creational counterfeits!) when you make Trolls speak you are giving them a power, which in our world (probably) connotes the possession of a 'soul'&quot; <hr></blockquote>

Letters of J.R.R.Tolkien, No. 153.

Whew! Having disturbed this thread from a well-deserved rest, I shall don a mail coat and hide. Fire away!

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000004>Mithadan </A> at: 10/16/00 4:05:54 pm

[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 117</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

Mithadan, I've come across this twice now, once while perusing &quot;Letters&quot; at a bookstore, and also partially reprinted in &quot;Morgoth's Ring&quot; -- but it doesn't seem to say much of anything conclusive. How do you see it fitting into this debate?

</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 225</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

Just to the extent that it establishes there were several varieties of Trolls, most of whom don't turn to stone (only stone trolls do).

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 118</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

I don't know about that... I could just as easily interpret this as a reference to Olog-hai. The passage begins, &quot;I don't know about Trolls.&quot; -- not &quot;Stone-trolls&quot;. I've been intensively searching for information on this topic because -- despite the ever-growing time lag -- I am working on an article on this subject, and I can't find any place where Tolkien makes any meaningful distinction between the various &quot;types&quot; of trolls. To my mind, the labels cave-, hill-, mountain-, and etc. are as insignificant with regards to essential troll nature as the distinctions grey-, green-, wood-, etc. are to essential elvish nature. Elves are undying; that is their essential nature. Trolls turn to stone when exposed to the light of the sun; that's troll nature.

In fact, the only clear distinction he makes that I can see is that the old model Trolls couldn't endure the sun, while Sauron's improved Olog-hai could.

Since Tolkien doesn't make himself clear in the letter cited, we're back to square one.

</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 229</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

Don't necessarily agree we're back to square one. Read the whole letter to put the quote in context and read the rest of the paragraph. In context its interesting. There are other letters which briefly address Trolls also. I happened upon this one and knew there was a discussion going so I threw it in. I think the letter makes a clear distinction between Stone Trolls and all others.

BTW, I'm not even sure which side of the argument you're on. If you're trying to argue that Olog-Hai were susceptible to sun or simply not distinct from other trolls, check out Fellowship, Bk. 1, where Aragorn whacks one of Bilbo's trolls with a stick, just before they reach Rivendell. Aragorn clearly thinks that all trolls turn to stone in the sun (unless he doesn't expect Olog-Hai in the North, far away from Mordor). This is from someone that should know (Gandalf called him the greatest woodsman of the age, etc.).

Write the article! I'm looking forward to it. If you really need the text of the whole letter and can't get it, send me a Private Mail or just post and we'll work out a way to get it to you.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 121</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

It's cool to have a fresh perspective in the thread. So far, I've held that all trolls other than Olog-hai, per Appendix F, are sun-susceptible. By inference, this means that most of the trolls that are encountered in the War of the Ring are Olog-hai, since we see some in daylight action and must assume that others marched for days to reach distant battle-fields. Ron pulled out a Silma reference to try to show that there were First Age sun-resistant trolls. I took exception, and that's where the end of the thread comes from.

Thanks for the tip re: Aragorn... I'll have to check that out.

The letter you mention, as I recall, goes more to the question of can evil create? and so on -- already shaky ground. Do you know the date of it? Since it's quoted in Morgoth's Ring, I sense that the letter was coming at a time when JRRT was being forced to examine the underpinnings of the mythology and was considering some major upheavals. Hence, I'd be wary of using it as a &quot;clincher&quot; for an argument when something like the Appendix F ref went through the editorial mill and the letter was just... well, a letter to some guy. Nevertheless, I would like to read it over again, since you bring it up. I don't have the funds to spring for &quot;Letters&quot; right now. I can &quot;visit&quot; it at the book store, but if you had an easy way to send it to me at hand, that would be even better.

I'm working through the article, but alas, other responsibilities and lack of access to a complete HoME reference library have limited my progress.

</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 232</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

Give me a day to wander through Letters for other references to trolls and I'll get back to you. The letter I quoted was from 1953 if I recall, so it was written almost concurrently or just after the Appendices. Have you looked at Peoples of Middle Earth re: trolls? That HoME volume includes materials edited out of the appendices due to lack of room, as well as earlier versions of what was published.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 122</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

I've cruised through both &quot;Letters&quot; and Volume XII searching for troll references and wasn't able to turn up much of substance -- though I don't own either and so haven't been able to read them thoroughly. But doesn't the finalization of the Appendices sometime in 1955 post-date this rather obscure letter?

I wasn't able to find anything in Volume XII re: Trolls that differed significantly from what's published. What did jump out at me was that (a) Tolkien had worked on the material for years and done his usual numerous drafts, and (b) he seemed really stressed out about what to include and how to include it given the space restrictions imposed on him. All this leads me to ask: why would he just toss off a virtually meaningless Olog-hai reference given the amount of sweating that he did over the Appendices?

Now I'm starting to preview my article a bit...

</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 233</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

Correction. The letter was from September 25, 1954. Work on the appendices began early 1954 (letters 143 [1-22-54], 144 [4-25-54]). The appendices appear to have been finished in early or mid-1955 (letter 160 [3-6-55] re: finishing remainder of appendices). So letter 153, quoted above, was prepared in the midst of JRRT's work on the appendices.

I don't think it was superceded, considering the chronology and the subject of the letter. It discussed theology/philosophy rather than history and is not really inconsistent with anything else which was published (other than what Aragorn said upon meeting the three troll &quot;statues&quot.

BTW, I use an &quot;old&quot; 1981 copy of Letters. The newly issued Edition or reprint is said to have a far better index.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 124</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

I hate to seem like a dog with a bone... but I think that interpreting the letter to mean that &quot;stone-trolls&quot; are the only ones susceptible to sunlight and that there are several other varieties which are not contradicts what is written and common sense.

I looked at the Aragorn ref you mentioned. Aragorn doesn't mince words -- &quot;You are forgetting not only your family history, but all you ever knew about trolls. It is broad daylight with a bright sun, and yet you come back trying to scare me with a tale of live trolls waiting for us in this glade!&quot;

Appendix F also contradicts your interpretation. It says of the Olog-hai, &quot;Unlike the older race of the Twilight they could endure the Sun, so long as the will fo Sauron held sway over them.&quot; The inescapable inference is that the older race couldn't endure the sun. The entry doesn't say anything about a different breed or breeds that didn't have this weakness. If, as you suggest, Tolkien implies that such breeds exist in his letter, why is there no mention at all of any of them -- <u>especially</u> considering that it was written concurrently with the final drafting of the Appendices? Furthermore, why would Sauron waste time and energy to develop the sun-resistant Olog-hai (and sun-resistant only when they were under the sway of his will) if &quot;naturally&quot; sun-resistant trolls already existed? Wouldn't that sort be easier to soup up?

Don't get me wrong. I dig the new input. But I'm still convinced that the prof didn't fumble on this one.

P.S. - The Aragorn reference is a gem! Have any more like that?


</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000005>Mister Underhill</A> at: 10/19/00 1:32:10 am

[The Barrow-Wight]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1489</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

Just a short note: Sauron may have developed the Olog-hai because the sun-resistant trolls of the first age (you know my thoughts on this already <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> ) had died out or been killed. I do not deny that Olog-hai were probably the only sun-resistant trolls of the 'modern' age. That's why Sauron had to make 'em. But I don't agree that they were the only sun-resistant trolls ever in existence.

Edits in Italics

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000002>RKittle</A>&nbsp; <IMG SRC=http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/oneringicon.gif BORDER=0 WIDTH=10 HEIGHT=10> at: 10/19/00 12:26:33 pm

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 234</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

OK. Lets look at what the letter says, contrasted with what it seems to imply. The context of the letter is a discussion of: (1) whether evil could &quot;create&quot; a race such as orcs/trolls, concluding that evil cannot &quot;create; and (2) whether orcs/trolls have souls.

The quote I provided begins with JRRT questioning whether Trolls have souls and ends with him noting that they speak which at least implies they do (and that if he had it to do over, maybe they would not speak). This is secondary to this discussion.

The letter clearly SAYS that William, Bert, et al. were Stone Trolls and that this variety becomes stone when exposed to sunlight. The letter also SAYS there were &quot;other races of Trolls&quot; whose origins are different from Stone Trolls.

The IMPLICATION is that Stone Trolls revert to stone when exposed to sunlight (perhaps because they are soulless constructs), and that the &quot;other races&quot; having other origins (and perhaps souls) do not revert to stone.

Now this is merely the implication of the letter. And as has been discussed in detail in this thread, there are other quotes from LoTR and Silm. which could be interpreted to support either position. This is probably one of those details which cannot be authoritatively resolved. JRRT claimed that every word he used was carefully considered. But I would point out that JRRT evolved the Silm over a period of 50 years and wrote LoTR during the span of 15 years, but appears to have written the appendices in a very short time.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 125</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

Hey Kittle, the Troll Thread is back!
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;It's alive! It's alive!&quot;<hr></blockquote>
I'm curious about your post, though... so are you saying that the trolls in daylight action (or implied daylight travel) in LotR are Olog-hai? I could swear your article posited the same argument that Mithadan is defending now -- that there were several varieties of trolls, some of which were &quot;naturally&quot; sun-resistant. P.S. -- working on that article as quickly as time and access to resources allows. I've brought more ammo to the table on the Húrin argument...

Mithadan, you're right that we may never be able to authoritatively solve this one. Undoubtedly that's the reason there are over seventy (!) posts in the thread. And it's true that the letter only implies and does not state clearly. But if reading it one way (several varieties of trolls, only one of them sun-sensitive) conflicts with other sources -- the Appendix F ref, Aragorn's statement, even the Hobbit troll scene where it says &quot;...trolls, as you probably know, must be underground before dawn, or they go back to the stuff of the mountains they are made of, and never move again.&quot; -- and reading it another (&quot;other sorts of trolls and &quot;different origins&quot;, as references to Olog-hai&quot does not, shouldn't the reading which doesn't conflict be the preferred one?

In Volume XII, CT says that studying the papers, it was clear to him that his father was aware that there would be need of Appendices years ahead of time. I don't have the exact quote here in front of me, because I don't have the book. It seems clear he worked on them for years at least, though granted, there's quite a bit of wide-ranging material in them. But just the fact that he decided to include a behind the scenes reference to Sauron going to the trouble of breeding (conditionally) sun-resistant trolls seems to imply that there were not naturally occuring sun-resistors.

And if we're going to use length of time worked upon as an index of accuracy... how long did it take him to dash off that letter? A day? An afternoon?

</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 236</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Who knows their trolls?

Funny thing is I don't really have a position on this issue. I didn't even read the thread beyond the first post or two initially. As a result, I can (and did) argue both sides. Thinking about it, the letter likely reflects a bit of JRRT's annoyance at what he perceives to be an imperfection in his work, i.e. Trolls are animated, soulless constructs but they can talk and some walk beneath the sun. So he puts on a &quot;patch&quot; -- some Trolls are not constructs. This fits with the Olog-Hai. How do you interbreed a man (or whatever) with a rock? I'm kind of thinking this through as I type. In balance, I lean, but not strongly, towards Ron's view based upon logic and the letter.

On the other hand, I never liked the &quot;animated construct&quot; idea as a component of JRRT's mythos. Animated by what? If only the will of Morgoth or Sauron, don't they merely stop working when their master isn't around or isn't thinking about them? Wait! Maybe that's why they turn to stone, Sauron's thought doesn't penetrate or is occluded by bright sun so they revert to their original material from which they can't be revived.

Enough. I'm getting drawn in and I don't want to be.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1493</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

My arguments always said that there were sun-resistant trolls prior to the Olog-hai, thus denying that the trolls in the War of the Ring MUST have been Olog-hai. They probably were.... but I think there is a historical precedence showing that they possibly weren't.

Now that I think of it, the day-walking trolls of the Third Age may quite likely have been Olog-hai. Why else would Sauron have bothered to make them? But it still doesn't mean they were the first day trolls.

I have edited my post above to reflect what I was meaning to say.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 130</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

Article forthcoming....

</p>