Morgul Blades - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Lostolin · 09-30-2002, 06:28 AM

The morgul blades that the Nazgul bore had the special ability to turn whoever it wounded into something 'like' the Nazgul. Would this mean that if Frodo wasn't healed he would become the 10th midget Ringwraith (probably not)? If this is so, then why didn't the Nazgul go around stabbing random people (I know the whole morgul blade stab=new Nazgul is kind of out there)? But if it didn't make a new Nazgul then what the heck did morgul blades do?

Thalionyulma · 09-30-2002, 07:45 AM

I believe it (the Morgul blade/s) had the ability to turn whoever it wounded into a wraith, or thrall/slave of the Dark Lord... if a piece of it was left in that being. I think there was a mention of " a piece of the blade" had been left in Frodo. It worked like poison, towards the heart, spreading its poison.

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...why didn't the Nazgul go around stabbing random people...?

For what purpose would that serve? They needed the Ring Bearer so they could get the One Ring for Sauron.

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But if it didn't make a new Nazgul then what the heck did morgul blades do?

The Nazguls were the Nine mortal kings that had worn the nine Rings of Power that Sauron had given them. They weren’t created by means of “killing them with a morgul blade”. The purpose of the blades? Um, how about to kill their enemies?

lathspell · 09-30-2002, 03:04 PM

Those who the Nazgul stabbed would turn into a wraith of far less power than the Nazgul. They would be enslaved to Sauron, of course, and I guess they would die too when the Ring was cast into Orodruin.
Why would they want to stab people for? Sauron had slaves enough. He didn't need his primary servants/slaves to go and stab people to give him more slaves. And, I think, there weren't very much of these blades. That of course is only a guess/thought.

greetings,
lathspell

Kalimac · 10-01-2002, 12:23 AM

This is definitely an interesting can of worms - or blades. I'd always been under the impression (for no real reason, I'll admit) that the Nazgul's Morgul blades were like their rings - they got one each for the duration and that was it, and since the blades work on the principle of a bee's stinger - one use only - they'd want to be careful about when they used them. The Nazgul are spending several months far away from Mordor, hunting for the Ring, so if they use up a Morgul-blade carelessly they don't really have time to go galloping back to Minas Ithil for refills, so to speak, so they'd have to be careful.

I can't see any reason why Sauron couldn't make more Morgul-blades, but the fact that, after Frodo is stabbed, we never see the Nazgul using one again, does suggest that perhaps they only got one each, or possibly only the Witch-King got one and the other eight just had to make do with ordinary weapons. (And it's hard to imagine the Witch-King not using a Morgul-blade on Eowyn if he had the chance, especially after his threat NOT to kill her, but rather to take her spirit along for some agelong torments - don't remember exactly how he phrased it).

If we accept that Morgul-blades were that rare, the question of why they didn't use them on more people would be clearer. The last thing you'd want as a Nazgul would be an enslaved (non-Ringbearer) hobbit-wraith, of all things; they undoubtedly would be almost useless servants and wouldn't be able to tell you anything that you didn't know already. The Dark Lord is nothing if not efficient.

Lostolin · 10-01-2002, 06:11 AM

Thanks for the info all. My statement of the Nazgul stabbing random people was because they could make an army of wraiths. But now I realize that it would be stupid due to the breakability of the Morgul blades and the weakness of the wraiths. Though the question as to why they didn't use the Morgul blades more often still stands. Was Sauron just too lazy to produce more of them? And speaking of blades, what was the power of the Witch-king's blade (the glowing one used in the Battle of Pelennor Fields I think)?

gayare'dion · 10-01-2002, 04:13 PM

well he always used his sword gurthang, i dont know its power though,

Arwen Imladris · 10-01-2002, 06:10 PM

Just a couple of things. For those of you who don't know, the morgle blade that stabbed Frodo sort of.. melted. It would be safe to asume that this would also happen to the other ones.

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Was Sauron just too lazy to produce more of them?

Well, what would they do with more? Would they carry them on there backs? How many would fit under there cloaks? Sauron probebly had better things to do.. like plans for conqering the world, taking care of a lot of orcs... Fear is usually enouph to scare most people away from the ringwraiths, most of the time they didn't need any weapons.

Rumil · 10-03-2002, 05:06 PM

Hi all,

I wonder if the victims of Morgul blade stabbings have become the barrow wights. The Lord of the Nazgul sent the wights to the barrow downs originally, could these have been the twisted remains of his enemies in Eriador, perhaps spirits of the Kings and Princes of Arnor?

Of course the nazgul also 'lived' at Dol Guldur and Minas Morgul for many centuries, could locations near these house some wights? Remember also that Elromd recognised the haft of the Morgul knife so he must have seen one before.

Diamond18 · 10-03-2002, 05:28 PM

I think that's a good theory. I may be wrong, but I don't remember any other explanation for wights. I'll bet the Barrow-Wight knows...hint, hint.

Tarthang · 10-05-2002, 01:42 PM

I'm not so sure it was Sauron who made the morgul blades. The name implies they come from the Morgul Vale, which is inhabited by the Nazgul. And the leader among the Nazgul was the Witch-King, a necromancer prior to falling sway to Sauron. So to my thinking it's the Witch-King who came up with the morgul blades, perhaps with Sauron's help. After all, the Black Numenoreans who served Sauron had sorcerers among their numbers, so who's to say all "magical" items of evil use by Sauron's forces were created by Sauron alone, when he clearly had help among his followers/slaves to do this for him.
Rumil brings up a point about the Witch-King sending the wights to the Barrow Downs. If wights and lesser wraiths are the same thing, it is feasible that said wights came into being courtesy of a morgul blade.
So why wasn't their use more prolific? Well, since this is all conjecture anyway, there was already a small army of wraiths waiting to be called into service at the Barrow Downs. Not very useful against Gondor in terms of distance, but had Arnor still been around (and able to threaten Sauron's plans), he could just turn the wraiths loose, so to speak. Which would have been a thorn in the North Kingdom's side, helping to hamper any aid to Gondor. So any left over morgul blades would've been convenient tools, but not a weapon of immediate need for the Nazgul.
Elrond certainly recognized a morgul blade which means he had seen them before. And seems to have known how to treat those wounded by them, in Frodo's case. Which can imply their use had once been more prolific.

GildorInglorion · 10-18-2002, 12:53 PM

Interesting idea with the wights being lesser ringwraiths.
But I think the shadow Frodo could have turned into should have been very week and completely in the hands of Sauron. Frodo could not become something like a wight, they are powerful creatures, and I don't think they care much for Sauron.

If someone was stabbed by a Morgul-blade before Sauron regained his powers, maybe them could become like the wights the four hobbits met? And I'm almost sure that the whitch-king was a powerful force, perhaps able to make Morgul blades, long before Sauon started to regain strenght.

I also believe that men make much more terrible shadows, or wights, than hobbits. The strenght in a hobbit comes mostly from his / her good and uncorruptible heart, and it's exacly those things that a Morgul blade destroy.

And magic weapons seem to be really hard to produce. Otherwise I think Elrond could have given Boromir a better sword. Morgul knifes are also pretty useless in battles, what you need there is instant death (With-king chose a mace instead at Pelennor)

DaughterofVana · 10-18-2002, 09:34 PM

Just like to add a comment to an already growing converstation--the likes of which have probably superceded menial comments such as these. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

When reading the books, I always thought that the stabbing of an individual by a morgul blade wasn't really MEANT to serve any real purpose, i.e. the making of wights (spelled it right that time!!) or some sort of wraith-slave. I always thought of it as the ultimate committing of murder, something that only the most evil and foul things do to their enemies. A regular blade can do nothing but take away physical life--maybe that passing can be more painful at times through infection, etc., but just physical passing nonetheless. A morgul blade, however, robs the individual of their soul as well, putting it in service of the Dark Lord. Maybe that's why there were so few morgul blades... they were just reserved for the really bad nasties.

-'Vana

09-30-2002, 06:28 AM	#1
Lostolin Pile O'Bones Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Texas (!) Posts: 13	Morgul Blades The morgul blades that the Nazgul bore had the special ability to turn whoever it wounded into something 'like' the Nazgul. Would this mean that if Frodo wasn't healed he would become the 10th midget Ringwraith (probably not)? If this is so, then why didn't the Nazgul go around stabbing random people (I know the whole morgul blade stab=new Nazgul is kind of out there)? But if it didn't make a new Nazgul then what the heck did morgul blades do? __________________ All that is gold does not glitter, not all those who wander are lost..

09-30-2002, 03:04 PM	#3
lathspell Regenerating Ringkeeper Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Holland Posts: 757	Those who the Nazgul stabbed would turn into a wraith of far less power than the Nazgul. They would be enslaved to Sauron, of course, and I guess they would die too when the Ring was cast into Orodruin. Why would they want to stab people for? Sauron had slaves enough. He didn't need his primary servants/slaves to go and stab people to give him more slaves. And, I think, there weren't very much of these blades. That of course is only a guess/thought. greetings, lathspell __________________ 'You?' cried Frodo. 'Yes, I, Gandalf the Grey,' said the wizard solemnly. 'There are many powers in the world, for good or for evil. Some are greater than I am. Against some I have not yet been measured. But my time is coming.'

10-01-2002, 12:23 AM	#4
Kalimac Candle of the Marshes Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Flyover Country Posts: 780	This is definitely an interesting can of worms - or blades. I'd always been under the impression (for no real reason, I'll admit) that the Nazgul's Morgul blades were like their rings - they got one each for the duration and that was it, and since the blades work on the principle of a bee's stinger - one use only - they'd want to be careful about when they used them. The Nazgul are spending several months far away from Mordor, hunting for the Ring, so if they use up a Morgul-blade carelessly they don't really have time to go galloping back to Minas Ithil for refills, so to speak, so they'd have to be careful. I can't see any reason why Sauron couldn't make more Morgul-blades, but the fact that, after Frodo is stabbed, we never see the Nazgul using one again, does suggest that perhaps they only got one each, or possibly only the Witch-King got one and the other eight just had to make do with ordinary weapons. (And it's hard to imagine the Witch-King not using a Morgul-blade on Eowyn if he had the chance, especially after his threat NOT to kill her, but rather to take her spirit along for some agelong torments - don't remember exactly how he phrased it). If we accept that Morgul-blades were that rare, the question of why they didn't use them on more people would be clearer. The last thing you'd want as a Nazgul would be an enslaved (non-Ringbearer) hobbit-wraith, of all things; they undoubtedly would be almost useless servants and wouldn't be able to tell you anything that you didn't know already. The Dark Lord is nothing if not efficient. __________________ Father, dear Father, if you see fit, We'll send my love to college for one year yet Tie blue ribbons all about his head, To let the ladies know that he's married.

10-01-2002, 06:11 AM	#5
Lostolin Pile O'Bones Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Texas (!) Posts: 13	Thanks for the info all. My statement of the Nazgul stabbing random people was because they could make an army of wraiths. But now I realize that it would be stupid due to the breakability of the Morgul blades and the weakness of the wraiths. Though the question as to why they didn't use the Morgul blades more often still stands. Was Sauron just too lazy to produce more of them? And speaking of blades, what was the power of the Witch-king's blade (the glowing one used in the Battle of Pelennor Fields I think)? __________________ All that is gold does not glitter, not all those who wander are lost..

10-01-2002, 04:13 PM	#6
gayare'dion Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: pennsylvania Posts: 75	well he always used his sword gurthang, i dont know its power though, __________________ i like pants!

10-03-2002, 05:06 PM	#8
Rumil Sage & Onions Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Britain Posts: 894	Hi all, I wonder if the victims of Morgul blade stabbings have become the barrow wights. The Lord of the Nazgul sent the wights to the barrow downs originally, could these have been the twisted remains of his enemies in Eriador, perhaps spirits of the Kings and Princes of Arnor? Of course the nazgul also 'lived' at Dol Guldur and Minas Morgul for many centuries, could locations near these house some wights? Remember also that Elromd recognised the haft of the Morgul knife so he must have seen one before. __________________ Rumil of Coedhirion

10-03-2002, 05:28 PM	#9
Diamond18 Eidolon of a Took Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: my own private fantasy world Posts: 3,460	I think that's a good theory. I may be wrong, but I don't remember any other explanation for wights. I'll bet the Barrow-Wight knows...hint, hint. __________________ All shall be rather fond of me and suffer from mild depression.

10-05-2002, 01:42 PM	#10
Tarthang Wight Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Paths of the Dead Posts: 108	I'm not so sure it was Sauron who made the morgul blades. The name implies they come from the Morgul Vale, which is inhabited by the Nazgul. And the leader among the Nazgul was the Witch-King, a necromancer prior to falling sway to Sauron. So to my thinking it's the Witch-King who came up with the morgul blades, perhaps with Sauron's help. After all, the Black Numenoreans who served Sauron had sorcerers among their numbers, so who's to say all "magical" items of evil use by Sauron's forces were created by Sauron alone, when he clearly had help among his followers/slaves to do this for him. Rumil brings up a point about the Witch-King sending the wights to the Barrow Downs. If wights and lesser wraiths are the same thing, it is feasible that said wights came into being courtesy of a morgul blade. So why wasn't their use more prolific? Well, since this is all conjecture anyway, there was already a small army of wraiths waiting to be called into service at the Barrow Downs. Not very useful against Gondor in terms of distance, but had Arnor still been around (and able to threaten Sauron's plans), he could just turn the wraiths loose, so to speak. Which would have been a thorn in the North Kingdom's side, helping to hamper any aid to Gondor. So any left over morgul blades would've been convenient tools, but not a weapon of immediate need for the Nazgul. Elrond certainly recognized a morgul blade which means he had seen them before. And seems to have known how to treat those wounded by them, in Frodo's case. Which can imply their use had once been more prolific.

10-18-2002, 12:53 PM	#11
GildorInglorion Animated Skeleton Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Sweden Posts: 48	Interesting idea with the wights being lesser ringwraiths. But I think the shadow Frodo could have turned into should have been very week and completely in the hands of Sauron. Frodo could not become something like a wight, they are powerful creatures, and I don't think they care much for Sauron. If someone was stabbed by a Morgul-blade before Sauron regained his powers, maybe them could become like the wights the four hobbits met? And I'm almost sure that the whitch-king was a powerful force, perhaps able to make Morgul blades, long before Sauon started to regain strenght. I also believe that men make much more terrible shadows, or wights, than hobbits. The strenght in a hobbit comes mostly from his / her good and uncorruptible heart, and it's exacly those things that a Morgul blade destroy. And magic weapons seem to be really hard to produce. Otherwise I think Elrond could have given Boromir a better sword. Morgul knifes are also pretty useless in battles, what you need there is instant death (With-king chose a mace instead at Pelennor) __________________ And with that he lifted high his sword and flames ran down the blade

10-18-2002, 09:34 PM	#12
DaughterofVana Wight Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: twirling contentedly in a flower-filled field Posts: 134	Just like to add a comment to an already growing converstation--the likes of which have probably superceded menial comments such as these. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] When reading the books, I always thought that the stabbing of an individual by a morgul blade wasn't really MEANT to serve any real purpose, i.e. the making of wights (spelled it right that time!!) or some sort of wraith-slave. I always thought of it as the ultimate committing of murder, something that only the most evil and foul things do to their enemies. A regular blade can do nothing but take away physical life--maybe that passing can be more painful at times through infection, etc., but just physical passing nonetheless. A morgul blade, however, robs the individual of their soul as well, putting it in service of the Dark Lord. Maybe that's why there were so few morgul blades... they were just reserved for the really bad nasties. -'Vana __________________ "There is a kind of happiness and wonder that makes you serious. It is too good to waste on jokes." Hi! Did you miss me?