Do Elves need any sleep at all? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

03-14-2002, 01:15 PM

I used to think that Elves need no sleep - like, for example, Legolas in the LotR.
Today I visited the site "Ardalambion Elven Phrases" (as advised by Mayla Took) to learn some elvish. There was a phrase "Sleep well" or "Quel Kaima".
So, do Elves need to sleep or not?

03-14-2002, 01:26 PM

Yeah I think so... Just not much [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

The-Elf-Herself · 03-16-2002, 10:39 AM

Yeah plus from what it says in the books, they can sleep with their eyes open, so they can "sleep walk". [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Raefindel · 03-16-2002, 10:55 PM

I asked the same question myself about a month ago. We decided Elves definately rest and sometimes sleep like we do (like the drunk elves in the Hobbit)But usually sleep with their eyes open and go into a different concious state. Someone compared it to how dolphins sleep.

ESTEN · 03-21-2002, 04:15 PM

I am sorry that i don't remember exact passage and I don't have the book in front of me, but Leaglos doesn't sleep, but he does something similiar. When they are chasing the orcs in book two and Strider and Gilmi need rest he does rest, it is not exactly sleep, but it is close
[ March 21, 2002: Message edited by: ESTEN ]

Airetalathwen · 03-21-2002, 05:45 PM

Yeah, somewhere it says that he (Legolas) lets his mind wander into the paths of Elven dreams. Not really sleeping, but just resting his mind, maybe like meditating. I think somewhere else he says something about just taking a walk in the garden would be enough rest for him.
I'm guessing it comes with the immortal body. Since elves don't die of old age or sickness, I wouldn't think that they could be very prone to getting tired all the time like mortals.

~Airetalathwen

[ March 21, 2002: Message edited by: Airetalathwen ]

Nevtalathiel · 03-22-2002, 11:56 AM

Dolphins sleep with only half their brain at once, while the other half stays awake if that is any help [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Amanaduial the archer · 03-22-2002, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Dolphins sleep with only half their brain at once, while the other half stays awake if that is any help

hang on, very interestin, but relevant...how?neway, ]if we r into interesting yet fairly useless facts, killer whales sleep while swimming, in rows so they can support each other and bob up and down occasionally to get air....ahem....
however, has ne1 read Beyond The Deepwoods?it has a creature called a caterbird(this is relevant! or as relevant as the dolphins-no offence!)and they dont really properly sleep but they let their minds wander in between all the dreams every caterbird has ever dreamt,as well as dreaming some things into the future.this is why they r so wise.i think elvish sleep may be something like this.
lol
amy
ps. i wasnt disin u 4 the dolphin remark so dont take offence!

Esmerelda the Elf-Girl · 03-22-2002, 01:23 PM

Yes, methinks they do sleep, but just less than everybody else...plus, they keep their loverly eyes open, so you never really know if they are or not...freakyyyy...there's a very usefull skil for you! hehe...and they have a way of sleeping up in trees without falling out...very groovy. [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]

Raefindel · 03-22-2002, 02:09 PM

That's the way I always interpreted it as well, Esmarelda [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Kalimac · 03-23-2002, 12:58 AM

There was that passage in TTT (some people have already mentioned it) which describes Legolas composing his mind and letting it wander the paths of dreams while walking normally with Aragorn and Gimli. It does seem a lot like the "sleeping with half your brain" idea. Also Legolas mentions somewhere that he will wander under the trees for a while "Which is as good as sleep to me" (paraphrasing). But then there are those Elves who fall asleep in Thranduil's cellar after drinking...hmm...

Since Legolas mentions that his routine is as good as sleep, then he must have experienced regular, eyes-closed sleep at some point. For some reason, and I don't know if this makes any sense, I was always under the impression that the walking-but-asleep thing was a sort of defensive maneuver; not something Elves did on a regular basis but which their bodies could summon up when they really had to, sort of in the way some people have been able to survive twenty minutes under freezing water without suffering any permanent damage. Not something you'd want to make too much of a habit of, but rather your body is pulling out all the stops in order to keep you going - afterwards you'll be able to collapse and recuperate, but the idea is to keep you going in the short term, until you're out of danger. Elves being Elves, they have rather more impressive capabilities for that sort of thing then Men do, hence the ability to walk for nine hours while simultaneously resting, then get a good stretch of regular sleep once you're safely back in Rivendell, or wherever [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. I don't know - does that make sense to anyone else?

03-23-2002, 11:19 AM

It appears to make sense, Kalimac. Elves and Men, being Children of Iluvatar, are likely to be comparable in their behaviour. Actually, some people experienced in Yoga and similar practices can reduce their need for sleep to a very short period.
To my mind, Elves seem to be a kind of perfect Men. Maybe, that is why a significant part of the Barrowdowns Members chose Elves as their character.
Kind regards,
Elronda

VanimaEdhel · 03-24-2002, 03:41 PM

I always figured Legolas slept how I do: I sleep with my eyes open, and know EXACTLY if people come in/out etc, but I also dream at the same time. I get up out of bed sometimes, go to the bathroom or something, and go back, right in front of my parents, but in my dream, I think I am somewhere else, but I know I am there at the same time...hard to explain, but I do dream at the same time I am watching, say, my cat play in my room in the night...that's how I imagined Legolas...and I do that when I'm running in school too, the "sleep" thing, so I don't get too bored...and in some classes (and my lowest grade was still an A-! lol)

Nimiriel · 07-01-2002, 11:07 AM

Well, I think that the way of sleeping with their eyes open and all, are not a defensive thing. I think that the elves can choose if how they want to sleep, and if they sleep like we do (eccept you VanimaEdhel) then they don't have to sleep as long to get the same amount of energy, as if they rest in the other way... Did you get that one, it sounds a little confusing to me, but I think I got it right.

The Silver-shod Muse · 07-01-2002, 12:16 PM

I learned to sleep like that in Algebra class last year. Needless to say, I didn't have A's.

Elves can become intoxicated the same way that humans can, so maybe the Mirkwood elves in the cellar were so drunk they passed out, but they weren't really asleep, just unconscious.

Raefindel · 07-01-2002, 12:25 PM

LOL! I've had some classes like that too! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Nukapei · 05-23-2005, 09:54 PM

Sorry, I know this thread is an old one, but I was wondering this recently, searched and found this thread, and just have to put my two cents in!

From what you've all said, and from my own reading of Tolkien's work, my opinion is that Elves actually have two types of sleep:

1) the eyes-open, "half-your-brain-is-asleep", type, that Legolas talks about -- more akin to meditation than sleep. Although they do dream. And, even before I read all this, dolphins came to my mind, too. lol But, I don't care how immortal you are, simple physiology kicks in, and all living beings need:

2) deep sleep. Eyes are shut, body is at rest. Perhaps they normall do the light kind of sleep, and only need deep sleep so often. (an hour a week? a month? pure speculation!

)

For the record, humans have many different levels of sleep, as well! There are three, if I remember correctly -- light sleep, REM (rapid eye movement, when you dream), and deep sleep. Perhaps it's the same with Elves, but with only two types, and they choose which one they will do (unlike humans, who go between all three several times a night!)

Sorry if I rambled! It's late, and I'm tired!

03-14-2002, 01:15 PM	#1
Elronda Guest Posts: n/a	Do Elves need any sleep at all? I used to think that Elves need no sleep - like, for example, Legolas in the LotR. Today I visited the site "Ardalambion Elven Phrases" (as advised by Mayla Took) to learn some elvish. There was a phrase "Sleep well" or "Quel Kaima". So, do Elves need to sleep or not?

03-16-2002, 10:39 AM	#3
The-Elf-Herself Haunting Spirit Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mithlond Posts: 74	Yeah plus from what it says in the books, they can sleep with their eyes open, so they can "sleep walk". [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ Go here http://www.geocities.com/sunlit_rain/home_page for songs translated into elvish.~Eruantale Aranìs Oronlamba~

03-16-2002, 10:55 PM	#4
Raefindel Sword of the Spirit Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Washington State Posts: 1,313	I asked the same question myself about a month ago. We decided Elves definately rest and sometimes sleep like we do (like the drunk elves in the Hobbit)But usually sleep with their eyes open and go into a different concious state. Someone compared it to how dolphins sleep. __________________ Blessed be the Lord my Strength, Who trained my hands for war and my fingers to fight. Psallm 144:1

03-21-2002, 05:45 PM	#6
Airetalathwen Animated Skeleton Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Greenwood the Great Posts: 28	Yeah, somewhere it says that he (Legolas) lets his mind wander into the paths of Elven dreams. Not really sleeping, but just resting his mind, maybe like meditating. I think somewhere else he says something about just taking a walk in the garden would be enough rest for him. I'm guessing it comes with the immortal body. Since elves don't die of old age or sickness, I wouldn't think that they could be very prone to getting tired all the time like mortals. ~Airetalathwen [ March 21, 2002: Message edited by: Airetalathwen ] __________________ I heard an old voice say~ "Don't go far from the land The seasons have their way~ No mortal can understand"

03-22-2002, 11:56 AM	#7
Nevtalathiel Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: The depths of delusion Posts: 374	Dolphins sleep with only half their brain at once, while the other half stays awake if that is any help [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ "You can go a long way with a smile. You can go even further with a smile and a gun." - Al Capone

03-14-2002, 01:26 PM	#2
vanwalithiel Guest Posts: n/a	Yeah I think so... Just not much [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

03-21-2002, 04:15 PM	#5
ESTEN Animated Skeleton Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Down the Rabbit hole Posts: 36	I am sorry that i don't remember exact passage and I don't have the book in front of me, but Leaglos doesn't sleep, but he does something similiar. When they are chasing the orcs in book two and Strider and Gilmi need rest he does rest, it is not exactly sleep, but it is close [ March 21, 2002: Message edited by: ESTEN ]

03-22-2002, 01:23 PM	#9
Esmerelda the Elf-Girl Pile O'Bones Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: lalaland Posts: 14	Yes, methinks they do sleep, but just less than everybody else...plus, they keep their loverly eyes open, so you never really know if they are or not...freakyyyy...there's a very usefull skil for you! hehe...and they have a way of sleeping up in trees without falling out...very groovy. [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img] __________________ "The fire's very cozy here, and the food's VERY good, and there are Elves when you want them. What more could one want?" -Bilbo

03-22-2002, 02:09 PM	#10
Raefindel Sword of the Spirit Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Washington State Posts: 1,313	That's the way I always interpreted it as well, Esmarelda [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ Blessed be the Lord my Strength, Who trained my hands for war and my fingers to fight. Psallm 144:1

03-23-2002, 12:58 AM	#11
Kalimac Candle of the Marshes Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Flyover Country Posts: 780	There was that passage in TTT (some people have already mentioned it) which describes Legolas composing his mind and letting it wander the paths of dreams while walking normally with Aragorn and Gimli. It does seem a lot like the "sleeping with half your brain" idea. Also Legolas mentions somewhere that he will wander under the trees for a while "Which is as good as sleep to me" (paraphrasing). But then there are those Elves who fall asleep in Thranduil's cellar after drinking...hmm... Since Legolas mentions that his routine is as good as sleep, then he must have experienced regular, eyes-closed sleep at some point. For some reason, and I don't know if this makes any sense, I was always under the impression that the walking-but-asleep thing was a sort of defensive maneuver; not something Elves did on a regular basis but which their bodies could summon up when they really had to, sort of in the way some people have been able to survive twenty minutes under freezing water without suffering any permanent damage. Not something you'd want to make too much of a habit of, but rather your body is pulling out all the stops in order to keep you going - afterwards you'll be able to collapse and recuperate, but the idea is to keep you going in the short term, until you're out of danger. Elves being Elves, they have rather more impressive capabilities for that sort of thing then Men do, hence the ability to walk for nine hours while simultaneously resting, then get a good stretch of regular sleep once you're safely back in Rivendell, or wherever [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. I don't know - does that make sense to anyone else? __________________ Father, dear Father, if you see fit, We'll send my love to college for one year yet Tie blue ribbons all about his head, To let the ladies know that he's married.

03-23-2002, 11:19 AM	#12
Elronda Guest Posts: n/a	It appears to make sense, Kalimac. Elves and Men, being Children of Iluvatar, are likely to be comparable in their behaviour. Actually, some people experienced in Yoga and similar practices can reduce their need for sleep to a very short period. To my mind, Elves seem to be a kind of perfect Men. Maybe, that is why a significant part of the Barrowdowns Members chose Elves as their character. Kind regards, Elronda

03-24-2002, 03:41 PM	#13
VanimaEdhel Etheral Enchantress Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Wellesley College! Posts: 1,461	I always figured Legolas slept how I do: I sleep with my eyes open, and know EXACTLY if people come in/out etc, but I also dream at the same time. I get up out of bed sometimes, go to the bathroom or something, and go back, right in front of my parents, but in my dream, I think I am somewhere else, but I know I am there at the same time...hard to explain, but I do dream at the same time I am watching, say, my cat play in my room in the night...that's how I imagined Legolas...and I do that when I'm running in school too, the "sleep" thing, so I don't get too bored...and in some classes (and my lowest grade was still an A-! lol) __________________ "I think we dream so we don't have to be apart so long. If we're in each others dreams, we can be together all the time." - Hobbes of Calvin and Hobbes

07-01-2002, 11:07 AM	#14
Nimiriel Animated Skeleton Join Date: May 2002 Location: Denmark - a long forgotten part of the Great Woods Posts: 37	Well, I think that the way of sleeping with their eyes open and all, are not a defensive thing. I think that the elves can choose if how they want to sleep, and if they sleep like we do (eccept you VanimaEdhel) then they don't have to sleep as long to get the same amount of energy, as if they rest in the other way... Did you get that one, it sounds a little confusing to me, but I think I got it right. __________________ So says Nimiríel Stardaughter Writing original fantasy? Meet the Wordweavers at Fww

07-01-2002, 12:16 PM	#15
The Silver-shod Muse Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: The shoulder of a poet, TX Posts: 388	I learned to sleep like that in Algebra class last year. Needless to say, I didn't have A's. Elves can become intoxicated the same way that humans can, so maybe the Mirkwood elves in the cellar were so drunk they passed out, but they weren't really asleep, just unconscious. __________________ "'You," he said, "tell her all. What good came to you? Do you rejoice that Maleldil became a man? Tell her of your joys, and of what profit you had when you made Maleldil and death acquainted.'" -Perelandra, by C.S. Lewis

07-01-2002, 12:25 PM	#16
Raefindel Sword of the Spirit Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Washington State Posts: 1,313	LOL! I've had some classes like that too! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ Blessed be the Lord my Strength, Who trained my hands for war and my fingers to fight. Psallm 144:1

05-23-2005, 09:54 PM	#17
Nukapei Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Virginia, USA Posts: 80	Sorry, I know this thread is an old one, but I was wondering this recently, searched and found this thread, and just have to put my two cents in! From what you've all said, and from my own reading of Tolkien's work, my opinion is that Elves actually have two types of sleep: 1) the eyes-open, "half-your-brain-is-asleep", type, that Legolas talks about -- more akin to meditation than sleep. Although they do dream. And, even before I read all this, dolphins came to my mind, too. lol But, I don't care how immortal you are, simple physiology kicks in, and all living beings need: 2) deep sleep. Eyes are shut, body is at rest. Perhaps they normall do the light kind of sleep, and only need deep sleep so often. (an hour a week? a month? pure speculation! ) For the record, humans have many different levels of sleep, as well! There are three, if I remember correctly -- light sleep, REM (rapid eye movement, when you dream), and deep sleep. Perhaps it's the same with Elves, but with only two types, and they choose which one they will do (unlike humans, who go between all three several times a night!) Sorry if I rambled! It's late, and I'm tired! __________________ *Gwend sui lotheg i edlothia an-uir.* Friendship is like a flower that blooms forever. Avatar image by the amazing Gold-Seven. site \| RPG