Trolls - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Voralphion · 09-26-2002, 09:20 PM

It is said by Treebeard that Trolls were made by Morgoth in mockery of ents as orcs were of elves. Since orcs are in fact corrupted elves, does this mean that trolls are corrupted ents, or did Morgoth make them himself?

Arathiriel · 09-26-2002, 11:02 PM

Quote:

It is said by Treebeard that Trolls were made by Morgoth in mockery of ents as orcs were of elves. Since orcs are in fact corrupted elves, does this mean that trolls are corrupted ents, or did Morgoth make them himself?

I don't know about that but I wanted to comment on something here...

I thought that the orcs were pretty dumb until I started to read The Hobbit -- well I decided that the trolls are dumber after reading that one chapter with 3 of them! [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

***Sharkû*** · 09-27-2002, 01:10 AM

"Treebeard does not say that the Dark Lord 'created' Trolls and Ores. He says he 'made' them in counterfeit of certain creatures pre-existing. There is, to me, a wide gulf between the two statements, so wide that Treebeard's statement could (in my world) have possibly been true. It is not true actually of the Orcs – who are fundamentally a race of 'rational incarnate' creatures, though horribly corrupted, if no more so than many Men to be met today. Treebeard is a character in my story, not me; and though he has a great memory and some earthy wisdom, he is not one of the Wise, and there is quite a lot he does not know or understand. He does not know what 'wizards' are, or whence they came. [...]
I am not sure about Trolls. I think they are mere 'counterfeits', and hence (though here I am of course only using elements of old barbarous mythmaking that had no 'aware' metaphysic) they return to mere stone images when not in the dark. But there are other sorts of Trolls beside these rather ridiculous, if brutal, Stone-trolls, for which other origins are suggested. Of course (since inevitably my world is highly imperfect even on its own plane nor made wholly coherent – our Real World does not appear to be wholly coherent either; and I am actually not myself convinced that, though in every world on every plane all must ultimately be under the Will of God, even in ours there are not some 'tolerated' sub-creational counterfeits!) when you make Trolls speak you are giving them a power, which in our world (probably) connotes the possession of a 'soul'. But I do not agree (if you admit that fairy-story element) that my trolls show any sign of 'good', strictly and unsentimentally viewed."

JRRT, Letter #153

HerenIstarion · 09-27-2002, 01:54 AM

follow up this link to see 2 excellent articles concerning trolls (Olog-Hai Fidelity, Olog-Hai and Lows)

09-27-2002, 01:54 AM	#4
HerenIstarion Deadnight Chanter Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 4,244	follow up this link to see 2 excellent articles concerning trolls (Olog-Hai Fidelity, Olog-Hai and Lows) __________________ Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time! Last edited by HerenIstarion; 08-17-2005 at 07:12 AM. Reason: sweeping party

09-26-2002, 09:20 PM	#1
Voralphion Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Sharkey's End Posts: 267	Trolls It is said by Treebeard that Trolls were made by Morgoth in mockery of ents as orcs were of elves. Since orcs are in fact corrupted elves, does this mean that trolls are corrupted ents, or did Morgoth make them himself? __________________ His sword was long his lance was keen His shining helm afar was seen The countless stars of heavens field Were mirrored in his silver shield

09-27-2002, 01:10 AM	#3
*Sharkû* Hungry Ghoul Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 1,719	"Treebeard does not say that the Dark Lord 'created' Trolls and Ores. He says he 'made' them in counterfeit of certain creatures pre-existing. There is, to me, a wide gulf between the two statements, so wide that Treebeard's statement could (in my world) have possibly been true. It is not true actually of the Orcs – who are fundamentally a race of 'rational incarnate' creatures, though horribly corrupted, if no more so than many Men to be met today. Treebeard is a character in my story, not me; and though he has a great memory and some earthy wisdom, he is not one of the Wise, and there is quite a lot he does not know or understand. He does not know what 'wizards' are, or whence they came. [...] I am not sure about Trolls. I think they are mere 'counterfeits', and hence (though here I am of course only using elements of old barbarous mythmaking that had no 'aware' metaphysic) they return to mere stone images when not in the dark. But there are other sorts of Trolls beside these rather ridiculous, if brutal, Stone-trolls, for which other origins are suggested. Of course (since inevitably my world is highly imperfect even on its own plane nor made wholly coherent – our Real World does not appear to be wholly coherent either; and I am actually not myself convinced that, though in every world on every plane all must ultimately be under the Will of God, even in ours there are not some 'tolerated' sub-creational counterfeits!) when you make Trolls speak you are giving them a power, which in our world (probably) connotes the possession of a 'soul'. But I do not agree (if you admit that fairy-story element) that my trolls show any sign of 'good', strictly and unsentimentally viewed." JRRT, Letter #153