Like mother, like daughter? Ungoliant and Shelob - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Kalimac · 03-13-2002, 12:34 AM

Just a question I had - I'm reading the "Unfinished Tales" for the first time and had a question about Ungoliant the spider as she appears in "The Theft of Melko" (her name there is Ungwe Lianti). She is described much the same way as Shelob ("she brought forth only that darkness that is a denial of all light") and the friendship between her and Melko is rather reminiscent of Gollum and Shelob, but she is also described as having a lust for gems and precious things - "but [Ungwe Lianti] was ahungered of the brightness of that hoard of jewels as soon as she saw them....and so came all the treasury of most lovely gems fairer than any others that the world has seen into the foul keeping of Wirilome."

When you read about Shelob in TTT though, it explicitly denies that she cares about anything other than food and death. "But her lust was not his lust [for the Ring]. Little she knew of or cared for towers, or rings, or anything devised by mind or hand, who desired only death for all others, mind and body, and for herself a glut of life." It seems a little strange that the one giant spider essentially lived for things "devised by mind or hand" while her daughter was hardly aware of them. And I'm not sure if there's an answer somewhere in the Silmarillion, since I haven't read it yet (planning to, though).

So why were they different? Was there a big reason I'm missing or did they just have different personalities, as giant spiders go? [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

[ March 13, 2002: Message edited by: Kalimac ]

Elven-Maiden · 03-14-2002, 02:13 PM

Maybe Shelob saw that worldly power and possessions were her undoing, and wanted to be different. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] What I think, however, is that Shelob was too hungry to care. As she didn't get a whole lot of food, it's plausible to think that her first concern was herself. If Sauron had given her Orc generals more often, she might have become greedy for power too. Also, Ungoliant had been lied to. Morgoth promised to feed her with both arms, but when he did, he kept the Silmarils in one hand, and wouldn't give them to her. That broken promise might have been enough to start thirsting for power.

Lush · 03-18-2002, 07:08 PM

Interesting topic. It seems that Shelob was simply more primitive. Maybe Ungoliant married her cousin, or something...Maybe they lived in South Carolina... [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

obloquy · 03-18-2002, 10:56 PM

It's hard to say how Ungoliante's Ainu nature would have affected her progeny when her mate was a being completely lacking sentience or fea. It's possible that they just inherited unnatural size and remained beasts, governed by their primal instincts.

Thalionyulma · 03-19-2002, 02:15 AM

Shelob was a lesser "beast" compared to Ungoliant. Though she came from the latter, it didn't exactly mean a "direct" daughter (I could be wrong).
Shelob definitely didn't have Ungoliant's unsatiable hunger (sheez, she already sapped the two trees' lights and she was still hungery!), though hungery she always seemed to be. Even Melkor was afraid of Ungoliant.

But remember that Tolkiens works sometimes are different from his earlier writings (as I'm discovering, but all are very interesting). So I guess it depends on which book you're reading presently, and which you're trying to compare it with (comparing his books with earlier writings is NOT advisable, unless you are a genius on this, it’ll confuse the living daylights out of you – I should know I tried, and got cross-eyed from trying!). [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

03-13-2002, 12:34 AM	#1
Kalimac Candle of the Marshes Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Flyover Country Posts: 780	Like mother, like daughter? Ungoliant and Shelob Just a question I had - I'm reading the "Unfinished Tales" for the first time and had a question about Ungoliant the spider as she appears in "The Theft of Melko" (her name there is Ungwe Lianti). She is described much the same way as Shelob ("she brought forth only that darkness that is a denial of all light") and the friendship between her and Melko is rather reminiscent of Gollum and Shelob, but she is also described as having a lust for gems and precious things - "but [Ungwe Lianti] was ahungered of the brightness of that hoard of jewels as soon as she saw them....and so came all the treasury of most lovely gems fairer than any others that the world has seen into the foul keeping of Wirilome." When you read about Shelob in TTT though, it explicitly denies that she cares about anything other than food and death. "But her lust was not his lust [for the Ring]. Little she knew of or cared for towers, or rings, or anything devised by mind or hand, who desired only death for all others, mind and body, and for herself a glut of life." It seems a little strange that the one giant spider essentially lived for things "devised by mind or hand" while her daughter was hardly aware of them. And I'm not sure if there's an answer somewhere in the Silmarillion, since I haven't read it yet (planning to, though). So why were they different? Was there a big reason I'm missing or did they just have different personalities, as giant spiders go? [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] [ March 13, 2002: Message edited by: Kalimac ] __________________ Father, dear Father, if you see fit, We'll send my love to college for one year yet Tie blue ribbons all about his head, To let the ladies know that he's married.

03-14-2002, 02:13 PM	#2
Elven-Maiden Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 297	Maybe Shelob saw that worldly power and possessions were her undoing, and wanted to be different. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] What I think, however, is that Shelob was too hungry to care. As she didn't get a whole lot of food, it's plausible to think that her first concern was herself. If Sauron had given her Orc generals more often, she might have become greedy for power too. Also, Ungoliant had been lied to. Morgoth promised to feed her with both arms, but when he did, he kept the Silmarils in one hand, and wouldn't give them to her. That broken promise might have been enough to start thirsting for power. __________________ Tout ce qui est or ne brille pas, Tous ceux qui errent ne sont pas perdus. Mobilis in Mobile

03-18-2002, 07:08 PM	#3
Lush Fair and Cold Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the big onion Posts: 1,770	Interesting topic. It seems that Shelob was simply more primitive. Maybe Ungoliant married her cousin, or something...Maybe they lived in South Carolina... [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ ~The beginning is the word and the end is silence. And in between are all the stories. This is one of mine~

03-18-2002, 10:56 PM	#4
obloquy Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: WA Posts: 939	It's hard to say how Ungoliante's Ainu nature would have affected her progeny when her mate was a being completely lacking sentience or fea. It's possible that they just inherited unnatural size and remained beasts, governed by their primal instincts.

03-19-2002, 02:15 AM	#5
Thalionyulma Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: across the sea Posts: 295	Shelob was a lesser "beast" compared to Ungoliant. Though she came from the latter, it didn't exactly mean a "direct" daughter (I could be wrong). Shelob definitely didn't have Ungoliant's unsatiable hunger (sheez, she already sapped the two trees' lights and she was still hungery!), though hungery she always seemed to be. Even Melkor was afraid of Ungoliant. But remember that Tolkiens works sometimes are different from his earlier writings (as I'm discovering, but all are very interesting). So I guess it depends on which book you're reading presently, and which you're trying to compare it with (comparing his books with earlier writings is NOT advisable, unless you are a genius on this, it’ll confuse the living daylights out of you – I should know I tried, and got cross-eyed from trying!). [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]