Khazad-dum - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Gorin Icearms · 03-12-2002, 01:57 PM

I was just wondering about Moria. Why was it so big? Remember that scene when Gandalf lights up the giant chamber? I mean, what's the point of that? They're dwarves. Short, round, dwarves. So why would they build something that massive? And when Gimli is telling the company about the old days, when there were chandeliers, how the heck were they supposed to add more oil/change candles?

Not being a real dwarf, (far from it, 6' 2" is hardly a dwarf [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ) I can see over fences and up into cupboards/on shelves that the vertically challenged can't. Seeing them reaching for stuff helps me to imagine what it was like for dwarves. So why did they make incredibly large tunnels and such?

[ March 12, 2002: Message edited by: Gorin Icearms ]

Gorin Icearms · 03-12-2002, 02:07 PM

I mean besides the obvious "because they can" reason. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Lyliac · 03-12-2002, 05:41 PM

dwaves love rock and mountain, right? like the elves love wood and stuff. why did galadriel use the power of her ring to keep lothlorien alive? because shw wanted to keep everything she loved. i think the same goes for dwarves. they wanted to create a massive city that was make from all that they love.

Gorin Icearms · 03-12-2002, 06:20 PM

I never thought of that. Good point. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Birdland · 03-13-2002, 12:02 AM

I think "because they could" is just about as good an answer as any. Dwarves were a prideful race, especially about their skills. They may have BEEN small, but they certainly didn't think small. "Bigger is better" was definitely their matra.

And if you were living underground, I suppose you would want to give a feel of space and openness to your dwellings. Also makes it better for air circulation, which I suppose they would have given some thought too.

As for who would be responsible for lighting such chambers. We only read about the great lords and warriors of the each of the races in LOTR. I'm sure there were plenty of "Joe Six-Pack" dwarves who did the grunt work in Moria.

"Well Finbur never did have much talent or taste, but he was a whiz at keeping those lamps lit!"

[ March 13, 2002: Message edited by: Birdland ]

03-13-2002, 10:07 AM

Perhaps they were compensating for something?

Kuruharan · 03-13-2002, 03:02 PM

Also remember that there were a very large number of dwarves living there at one time, they probably needed the space. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Dwarin Thunderhammer · 03-21-2002, 07:25 PM

Aule made the Dwarves. Since Aule loved creating and building things it is natural that he would pass on his love of building to the Dwarves. In the Silmarillion I believe it says the dwarves became the greatest craftsmen in Middle Earth. They would naturally want display their craftmanship to other races, and to themselves.

Another thing is that contrary to what it may seem like, the dwarves loved things of beauty. Gimli was struck in awe of galadriels beauty, and they loved Thingols Silmaril so much that they destroyed Doriath for it. I think it was a natural evolution for them to beautify their dwellings.

Thalionyulma · 03-22-2002, 03:57 AM

I totally agree with Dwarin... it would be natural that the dwarves have Aule's skill and knowledge of their craft. And just because their appearance weren't "beautiful", did that mean they couldn't create and appreciate beauty? (hey... isn't there a saying that beauty is in the eye of the beholder?)

Even the elves acknowledge their skill... wish I could see Moria before it was overrun by the goblins and balrog... and the glittering caves... ooops! sori, i was forgetting myself! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Amarinth · 03-22-2002, 06:25 AM

ahemm, ahemm, from a geological perspective, it's only natural for a mine as large as moria to have a central area as large as dwimmordeme (did i spell that right?). first, if you get the many dwarves to work in all the levels of the mines, you would certainly need a huge huge space in which to store and even suck in the needed supply of air to ventilate the entire place. secondly, small mine shafts are a death trap, and if you incorporate a living area or a congregational hall it should be wide enough to allow for escape and high enough to allow for sight of impending danger. Third, the less burden of rock there is the less likely the chance of collapse, so in a fully excavated hall like that there is a less likely chance of annihilating an entire enclave of dwarves all at the same time!

from the perspective of a fanatic, dwarves are magnificent smiths and miners, and if they've built majestic halls for the mighty elven kings of old, then small wonder that their crowning glory, the most beautiful and spacious hall they've built, they've built for themselves (dwarves aren't a very unselfish race too come to think of that)...

---------------------------------------------
every man's life is a path to the truth -- hesse

Beren87 · 03-22-2002, 08:30 AM

Perhaps the room, in its massiveness, was already there as a cave as such. I doubt that the mountain was completely solid. The dwarves just expanded on what was given to them.

Oh, and we "vertically chalenged" people get into cupboards just well, Thank You Very Much.

[ March 22, 2002: Message edited by: Beren87 ]

Orodhromeus · 03-22-2002, 10:14 AM

Nobody has posted anything concerning men yet. Men don't need to do half (or more) the things they do. From a functional point of view, many big projects such as the buiding of the Acropolis or the Eiffel tower, making submarines to reach -11000m in depth, climb to the top of Everest, travel to the Moon, are all things more or less useless (apart from the scientific gain). Man doesn't need to do them, but when he can, he does. There's a natural urge towards doing something that will remain in the future for the generations to come, for the memory to remain.

Gorin Icearms · 03-23-2002, 12:53 AM

Umm, sorry Beren87. I didn't mean that as an insult. It just sounded better than saying "you're short, tough". [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

VanimaEdhel · 03-24-2002, 03:48 PM

Because they are DWARVES is why...dwarves always want more, more, more...remember? And they probably knew that bigger = richer looking and dwarved + wealth...well, we all know what that means! lol

Kalimac · 03-26-2002, 01:07 AM

For the same reason that in the Middle Ages, men built huge cathedrals; the beauty and greatness of the structure was meant to be both an expression of honor for the being they worshipped and an earthly demonstration of what they were capable of creating. Khazad-Dum was a special place for Dwarves, sort of their equivalent of Mecca, and it's understandable that they'd spare nothing to make the most beautiful and impressive structures they were capable of.

If you go to York Minster, or any Russian cathedral, you'll get dizzy if you look too long up at the ceiling, and in the middle ages most people were rather closer to dwarf-height than we are. The Dwarves couldn't use all that space any more than we could use all the space near the ceilings of York Minster, but it didn't matter. The point was that the building was beautiful and grandiose and unforgettable. And for lighting the chandeliers - I'm sure the Dwarves had enough in the way of technology to graspt the concept of ladders [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img].

Thinhyandoiel · 03-26-2002, 01:39 AM

Quote:

Perhaps they were compensating for something?

LOL! That was funny. But I do agree with everyone. The Dwarves love beauty. They would, of course, apply that love to everything they own. Such magnificence as Moria is awe inspiring, and just shows how much the Dwarves really loved their work, and their home. You don't buy the ugliest house on the block, you try and buy the best house on the block. Or, instead of buy, make. I thought it was fitting that they would do such a thing, and the Glittering Caves are no exception either.

avarerniliel · 03-28-2002, 12:42 PM

Not only for the natural building reasons of: lots of dwarves are going to be living here, but, dwarves love to build and are going to do it as much as they can. It does seem sensible that Aule would pass on his love of building to the dwarves. The dwarves also seem like a proud race, perhaps they were trying to show off their skill and how beautiful they could make things. As far as how the dwarves replaced the oil in chandeliers...um...maybe a really really huge ladder? Either that or they got their buddy and pal the balrog to do it. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

VanimaEdhel · 03-28-2002, 03:33 PM

Oh: The "are they compensating for something" comment: for the Disney movie-illiterate: that was from "Shrek". When Shrek and Donkey reach Lord Farquad's castle, the castle is REALLY big and tall, so Shrek elbows Donkey and says "Do ya thinks he's compesating for something?"

It's okay for the Disney movie because Lord Farquad was like 3' tall, but us teens that saw the movie cracked up so much, and the little kids didn't get it. Hehe

Nuranar · 03-28-2002, 05:47 PM

Um, about lighting chandeliers...

Ladders that long would be pretty dangerous, and although dwarves, being dwarves, would be able to create a magnificently sturdy staffold, that's a bit of unnecessary work. It would be much more practical to raise and lower the chandeliers on pulleys, minimizing (if not eliminating) the danger inherent in trying to cling to a ladder and light oil lamps at the same time. Being mechanically minded, the dwarves could formulate a mean system of pulleys that would be both secure and efficient.

There's my two cents...any thoughts?

Birdland · 03-28-2002, 10:38 PM

I think dwarves had wings.

03-12-2002, 01:57 PM	#1
Gorin Icearms Haunting Spirit Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 67	Khazad-dum I was just wondering about Moria. Why was it so big? Remember that scene when Gandalf lights up the giant chamber? I mean, what's the point of that? They're dwarves. Short, round, dwarves. So why would they build something that massive? And when Gimli is telling the company about the old days, when there were chandeliers, how the heck were they supposed to add more oil/change candles? Not being a real dwarf, (far from it, 6' 2" is hardly a dwarf [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ) I can see over fences and up into cupboards/on shelves that the vertically challenged can't. Seeing them reaching for stuff helps me to imagine what it was like for dwarves. So why did they make incredibly large tunnels and such? [ March 12, 2002: Message edited by: Gorin Icearms ] __________________ The Moon is Rising! Oh hey, I'm a wight now. WORSHIP ME IN ALL MY WIGHTNESS!!! MUAHAHAHA!!

03-12-2002, 02:07 PM	#2
Gorin Icearms Haunting Spirit Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 67	I mean besides the obvious "because they can" reason. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ The Moon is Rising! Oh hey, I'm a wight now. WORSHIP ME IN ALL MY WIGHTNESS!!! MUAHAHAHA!!

03-12-2002, 05:41 PM	#3
Lyliac Pile O'Bones Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: The Dead Marshes Posts: 25	dwaves love rock and mountain, right? like the elves love wood and stuff. why did galadriel use the power of her ring to keep lothlorien alive? because shw wanted to keep everything she loved. i think the same goes for dwarves. they wanted to create a massive city that was make from all that they love. __________________ "Atheism is a non-prophet organization" [img] C:\Documents and Settings\user1\My Documents\My Pictures\sig1.gif [/img]

03-12-2002, 06:20 PM	#4
Gorin Icearms Haunting Spirit Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 67	I never thought of that. Good point. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ The Moon is Rising! Oh hey, I'm a wight now. WORSHIP ME IN ALL MY WIGHTNESS!!! MUAHAHAHA!!

03-13-2002, 03:02 PM	#7
Kuruharan Regal Dwarven Shade Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold Posts: 3,591	Also remember that there were a very large number of dwarves living there at one time, they probably needed the space. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ ...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no...

03-13-2002, 12:02 AM	#5
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,751	I think "because they could" is just about as good an answer as any. Dwarves were a prideful race, especially about their skills. They may have BEEN small, but they certainly didn't think small. "Bigger is better" was definitely their matra. And if you were living underground, I suppose you would want to give a feel of space and openness to your dwellings. Also makes it better for air circulation, which I suppose they would have given some thought too. As for who would be responsible for lighting such chambers. We only read about the great lords and warriors of the each of the races in LOTR. I'm sure there were plenty of "Joe Six-Pack" dwarves who did the grunt work in Moria. "Well Finbur never did have much talent or taste, but he was a whiz at keeping those lamps lit!" [ March 13, 2002: Message edited by: Birdland ]

03-13-2002, 10:07 AM	#6
JesseCuster Guest Posts: n/a	Perhaps they were compensating for something?

03-21-2002, 07:25 PM	#8
Dwarin Thunderhammer Khazad-Doomed Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: The Green Dragon Posts: 182	Aule made the Dwarves. Since Aule loved creating and building things it is natural that he would pass on his love of building to the Dwarves. In the Silmarillion I believe it says the dwarves became the greatest craftsmen in Middle Earth. They would naturally want display their craftmanship to other races, and to themselves. Another thing is that contrary to what it may seem like, the dwarves loved things of beauty. Gimli was struck in awe of galadriels beauty, and they loved Thingols Silmaril so much that they destroyed Doriath for it. I think it was a natural evolution for them to beautify their dwellings. __________________ “Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd aimênu!” Come visit The Rohan RPG! The only RPG to fanfic on the downs! Without law there can be no freedom. Without justice there can be no law.

03-22-2002, 03:57 AM	#9
Thalionyulma Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: across the sea Posts: 295	I totally agree with Dwarin... it would be natural that the dwarves have Aule's skill and knowledge of their craft. And just because their appearance weren't "beautiful", did that mean they couldn't create and appreciate beauty? (hey... isn't there a saying that beauty is in the eye of the beholder?) Even the elves acknowledge their skill... wish I could see Moria before it was overrun by the goblins and balrog... and the glittering caves... ooops! sori, i was forgetting myself! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

03-22-2002, 06:25 AM	#10
Amarinth Wight Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: realm of agonized volcanoes Posts: 113	ahemm, ahemm, from a geological perspective, it's only natural for a mine as large as moria to have a central area as large as dwimmordeme (did i spell that right?). first, if you get the many dwarves to work in all the levels of the mines, you would certainly need a huge huge space in which to store and even suck in the needed supply of air to ventilate the entire place. secondly, small mine shafts are a death trap, and if you incorporate a living area or a congregational hall it should be wide enough to allow for escape and high enough to allow for sight of impending danger. Third, the less burden of rock there is the less likely the chance of collapse, so in a fully excavated hall like that there is a less likely chance of annihilating an entire enclave of dwarves all at the same time! from the perspective of a fanatic, dwarves are magnificent smiths and miners, and if they've built majestic halls for the mighty elven kings of old, then small wonder that their crowning glory, the most beautiful and spacious hall they've built, they've built for themselves (dwarves aren't a very unselfish race too come to think of that)... --------------------------------------------- every man's life is a path to the truth -- hesse __________________ pity this busy monster,manunkind, not / -progress is a comfortable disease;/ your victim (death and life safely beyond) / plays with the bigness of his littleness ---ee cummings

03-22-2002, 08:30 AM	#11
Beren87 Master of the Secret Fire Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Between fire and ice, death and life Posts: 2,241	Perhaps the room, in its massiveness, was already there as a cave as such. I doubt that the mountain was completely solid. The dwarves just expanded on what was given to them. Oh, and we "vertically chalenged" people get into cupboards just well, Thank You Very Much. [ March 22, 2002: Message edited by: Beren87 ]

03-22-2002, 10:14 AM	#12
Orodhromeus Wight Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Greece Posts: 106	Nobody has posted anything concerning men yet. Men don't need to do half (or more) the things they do. From a functional point of view, many big projects such as the buiding of the Acropolis or the Eiffel tower, making submarines to reach -11000m in depth, climb to the top of Everest, travel to the Moon, are all things more or less useless (apart from the scientific gain). Man doesn't need to do them, but when he can, he does. There's a natural urge towards doing something that will remain in the future for the generations to come, for the memory to remain.

03-23-2002, 12:53 AM	#13
Gorin Icearms Haunting Spirit Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 67	Umm, sorry Beren87. I didn't mean that as an insult. It just sounded better than saying "you're short, tough". [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ The Moon is Rising! Oh hey, I'm a wight now. WORSHIP ME IN ALL MY WIGHTNESS!!! MUAHAHAHA!!

03-24-2002, 03:48 PM	#14
VanimaEdhel Etheral Enchantress Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Wellesley College! Posts: 1,461	Because they are DWARVES is why...dwarves always want more, more, more...remember? And they probably knew that bigger = richer looking and dwarved + wealth...well, we all know what that means! lol __________________ "I think we dream so we don't have to be apart so long. If we're in each others dreams, we can be together all the time." - Hobbes of Calvin and Hobbes

03-26-2002, 01:07 AM	#15
Kalimac Candle of the Marshes Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Flyover Country Posts: 780	For the same reason that in the Middle Ages, men built huge cathedrals; the beauty and greatness of the structure was meant to be both an expression of honor for the being they worshipped and an earthly demonstration of what they were capable of creating. Khazad-Dum was a special place for Dwarves, sort of their equivalent of Mecca, and it's understandable that they'd spare nothing to make the most beautiful and impressive structures they were capable of. If you go to York Minster, or any Russian cathedral, you'll get dizzy if you look too long up at the ceiling, and in the middle ages most people were rather closer to dwarf-height than we are. The Dwarves couldn't use all that space any more than we could use all the space near the ceilings of York Minster, but it didn't matter. The point was that the building was beautiful and grandiose and unforgettable. And for lighting the chandeliers - I'm sure the Dwarves had enough in the way of technology to graspt the concept of ladders [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. __________________ Father, dear Father, if you see fit, We'll send my love to college for one year yet Tie blue ribbons all about his head, To let the ladies know that he's married.

03-28-2002, 12:42 PM	#17
avarerniliel Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: In front of the moniter... Posts: 58	Not only for the natural building reasons of: lots of dwarves are going to be living here, but, dwarves love to build and are going to do it as much as they can. It does seem sensible that Aule would pass on his love of building to the dwarves. The dwarves also seem like a proud race, perhaps they were trying to show off their skill and how beautiful they could make things. As far as how the dwarves replaced the oil in chandeliers...um...maybe a really really huge ladder? Either that or they got their buddy and pal the balrog to do it. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

03-28-2002, 03:33 PM	#18
VanimaEdhel Etheral Enchantress Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Wellesley College! Posts: 1,461	Oh: The "are they compensating for something" comment: for the Disney movie-illiterate: that was from "Shrek". When Shrek and Donkey reach Lord Farquad's castle, the castle is REALLY big and tall, so Shrek elbows Donkey and says "Do ya thinks he's compesating for something?" It's okay for the Disney movie because Lord Farquad was like 3' tall, but us teens that saw the movie cracked up so much, and the little kids didn't get it. Hehe __________________ "I think we dream so we don't have to be apart so long. If we're in each others dreams, we can be together all the time." - Hobbes of Calvin and Hobbes

03-28-2002, 05:47 PM	#19
Nuranar Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: STILL a drought Posts: 529	Um, about lighting chandeliers... Ladders that long would be pretty dangerous, and although dwarves, being dwarves, would be able to create a magnificently sturdy staffold, that's a bit of unnecessary work. It would be much more practical to raise and lower the chandeliers on pulleys, minimizing (if not eliminating) the danger inherent in trying to cling to a ladder and light oil lamps at the same time. Being mechanically minded, the dwarves could formulate a mean system of pulleys that would be both secure and efficient. There's my two cents...any thoughts? __________________ I admit it is better fun to punt than be punted, and that a desire to have all the fun is nine-tenths of the law of chivalry. Lord Peter Wimsey

03-28-2002, 10:38 PM	#20
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,751	I think dwarves had wings.