Feanor Self-Important?

[Finwe]

A lot of people assume that the Valar aren't to blame, or that very little blame is attached to them, but that isn't true. The reason they brought the Elves over to Aman in the first place was that they wanted to protect them from Morgoth. They assumed that the Elves were like their children, and needed protection and care.

During the Rebellion of the Noldor, it could be said that the Elves hit adolescence, or at least the Noldor did. All adolescents try to rebel against their parents/guardians in some way or the other, and that was exactly what the Noldor did.

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

A lot of people assume that the Valar aren't to blame, or that very little blame is attached to them, but that isn't true.

Yes, a lot of people, including Tolkien [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

If we speak last of the "folly" of Manwe and the weakness and unwariness of the Valar, let us beware how we judge. In the histories, indeed, we may be amazed and grieved to read how (seemingly) Melkor deceived and cozened others, and how even Manwe appears at times almost a simpleton compared with him: as if a kind but unwise father were treating a wayward child who would assuredly in time perceive the error of his ways. Whereas we, looking on and knowing the outcome, see now that Melkor knew well the error of his ways, but was fixed in them by hate and pride beyond return. He could read the mind of Manwe, for the door was open; but his own mind was false and even if the door seemed open, there were doors of iron within closed for ever.
How otherwise would you have it? Should Manwe and the Valar meet secrecy with subterfuge, treachery with falsehood, lies with more lies? If Melkor would usurp their rights, should they deny his? Can hate overcome hate? Nay, Manwe was wiser; or being ever open to Eru he did His will, which is more than wisdom. He was ever open because he had nothing to conceal, no thought that it was harmful for any to know, if they could comprehend it. Indeed Melkor knew his will without questioning it; and he knew that Manwe was bound by the commands and injunctions of Eru, and would do this or abstain from that in accordance with them, always, even knowing that Melkor would break them as it suited his purpose. Thus the merciless will ever count on mercy, and the liars make use of truth; for if mercy and truth are withheld from the cruel and the lying, they have ceased to be honoured.
Osanwe-kenta

[Angry Hill Troll]

Yes, a lot of people, including Tolkien

Amarië, it think that partly depends on how one interprets "blame". If one means that Manwë is "blameless" because he has not knowingly done anything wrong, that is certainly true. He does, however, make mistakes (albeit honest ones) and does have significant limitations:

[after the War of the Powers, Melkor] actually kneels before Manwë and surrenders...But also suddenly he has the idea of penetrating the vaunted fastness of Valinor, and ruining it. So he offers to become 'the least of the Valar'...It is this offer which seduces or deludes Manwë--Manwë must be shown to have his own inherent fault (though not sin [Footnote: Every finite creature must have some weakness: that is some inadequacy to deal with some situations. It is not sinful when not willed, and when the creature does his best (even if it is not what should be done) as he sees it--with the conscious intent of serving Eru.]): [Manwë] has become engrossed (partly out of sheer fear of Melkor, partly out of desire to control him) in amendment, healing, re-ordering-- even "keeping the status quo"- to the loss of all creative power, and even to weakness in dealing with difficult and perilous situations. Against the advice of some of the Valar (such as Tulkas) he grants Melkor's prayer.

Morgoth's Ring: Myths Transformed

Part of Manwë's limitation seems to be that he is free from evil. Normally that's a good thing, but in Manwë's case it is to the point that he is incapable of understanding evil, or the actions or motivations of any evil being. Gandalf seems to have a much better grasp of this concept. He is capable of understanding Sauron's behavior and likely course of action, but does not condone it or fall into temptation. Granted, he did have the opportunity to learn first-hand from Manwë's previous experiences.

[ July 11, 2003: Message edited by: Angry Hill Troll ]

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

Angry Troll, I agree with you. Of course I am not saying that the Valar are perfect and never made mistakes. Yet, as you called them, they were 'honest mistakes' [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
As Christ said, the chidren of this world are wiser than the children of light [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

About your comparison between Manwë and Gandalf, the answer is in the quote you posted in this thread some days ago [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] :

Manwë's task and problem was much more difficult than Gandalf's
Myths Transformed; HoME 10, 'Morgoth's Ring'

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

As I was flipping through all my old threads (there aren't many, so it went fast), I started to reread this one, and my brother pointed out one of the less obvious possible meanings of the quote I used. Here is my original thread-starting post, to make it easier:

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

I searched, and found no topics where my question was answered, although I may have over-looked something.

In Chapter 9 (Of the Flight of the Noldor) of the Silm, Feanor "cries bitterly" the following:

"...It may be that I can unlock my
jewels, but never again shall I make
their like; and if I must break them,
I shall break my heart, and I shall
be slain;first of all the Eldar in
Aman"

I am thoroughly confused as to precisely what Feanor means by the statement 'first'. To me, he could mean a number of things, two of which being:

1) that he would be the first to be slain
2) that he considers himself to be the first (best/highest) of the Eldar in Aman

And then Mandos says "Not the first." which could be him pointing out that he's not the first in Aman to die, or Mandos pointing out that Feanor is not the first of the Eldar.

I beg of you all, help me! I hate being confused and reading the Silm for the first time has got me a little messed up.

Fea

Here is my reason for bringing this ancient thread back to life:

By "First of all the Eldar in Aman", is it possible that Feanor is not implying self-importance at all, but rather that he was just the first of the immigrating Elves to set foot on Aman? Meaning... he is simply stating the obvious. He's... punctual. Always the first to do anything, whether setting foot on new land or making jewels of unsurpassed beauty.

My brother says he's the type of Elf who would shove other Elves out of the way just so he could be the first to set foot in Aman. I say my brother is a fool.

Fea

[akhtene]

he was just the first of the immigrating Elves to set foot on Aman

This couldn't be, as Feanor wasn't among the ambassadors invited by the Valar (his father Finwé was). Feanor was born in Tirion.

Oh, following your brother's logic, maybe he was the first of the Eldar born in Aman? I'm not sure of that.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

My problem with the Silm is that I read it front to back last summer, and have been reduced to flipping through it occasionally since then. I don't own the book [yet], and usually it takes me a few days after I need it to actually get a hold of it. My question was more along the lines of "Could it be that we were jumping to conclusions about Feanor's arrogance, and that he was simply stating the obvious and we overthought it?"

Fea

[the phantom]

Oh, following your brother's logic, maybe he was the first of the Eldar born in Aman? I'm not sure of that.

I'm at school so I don't have my books, but I remember reading in HoME that Tolkien wanted Feanor to be the first-born of the Eldar. All the older Elves (Finwe, Elwe, etc.) were never born, they just woke up. Tolkien thought that the significance of being the first naturally born Child of Eru in the world would perhaps partly explain his ridiculous potency.

In one of his drafts Feanor was actually born in ME and his mother died by falling off a cliff while the Elves were passing through the Misty Mountains (on their way to Valinor). But Tolkien didn't keep this of course and had Feanor born after the journey's end. I can't remember if the idea of Feanor being the first born stayed intact through this change in the story.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Welcome back to the thread, my phan-tasmic friend. I'd never heard this about Feanor's birth. Which volume of HoME is it in? Although that question is somewhat meaningless, as I [very ashamedly] will admit to not having read any of HoME. But I do plan on ordering them through my local library once I have some free time again...

Fea

[the phantom]

Which volume of HoME is it in?

It is in Volume X (Morgoth's Ring).

Although that question is somewhat meaningless, as I [very ashamedly] will admit to not having read any of HoME. But I do plan on ordering them through my local library once I have some free time again...

Well, if you manage to find the time (I never knew a teenage artist's schedule was so cramped) then you should read Volume X. It's definitely the best one (in my sometimes almost humble opinion).

But I'll give you a taste of the book real quick here. Tolkien wrote this at one time but crossed it out-

Here they dwelt for a year, and here Indis wife of Finwe bore him a son, eldest of all the second generation of the Eldar.

This was right before they crossed the Misty Mts (and you'll notice the name Indis was used instead of Miriel).

And then Chris Tolkien wrote this a bit later-

The two passages concerning Indis wife of Finwe...are notable as the first indications of what would become a major further development in the Valinorian legend, though the stories told here bear no relation to the later narrative. These briefly sketched ideas may have been merely passing, rejected as soon as jotted down; but they show my father's concern with Feanor, feeling that the greatness of his powers and formidable nature were related to a singularity of origin- he was the first-born of the Eldar: that is to say, he did not 'waken' by Kuivienen, but had a father and mother, and was born in Middle-Earth.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Well, if you manage to find the time (I never knew a teenage artist's schedule was so cramped) then you should read Volume X.

1) The Book: will do. It involves some special ordering and an unguessable wait in time, but I'll get it and read it some time soon.

2) The Schedule: You'd be surprised. You've got to keep in mind that this is an over-achieving teenage artist, about to start her senior year, who's dead exhausted and still hasn't managed to get her room cleaned (I've seriously been trying for over a week, but things keep coming up!).

I can't remember if the idea of Feanor being the first born stayed intact through this change in the story.

I'll assume that your memory is still foggy on this subject, but does anyone else know if Feanor retained his firstborn status in later versions?

Fea

[the phantom]

The Book: will do. It involves some special ordering and an unguessable wait in time

So, I guess there's not a Borders (or another similar bookstore) anyplace close to you? That's too bad. Send me enough money and I'll mail you my copy and just buy myself a new one tomorrow.

You've got to keep in mind that this is an over-achieving teenage artist, about to start her senior year, who's dead exhausted and still hasn't managed to get her room cleaned

Hee hee. My room doesn't get cleaned once football season starts.

And looking back, I've determined that I had more free time my senior year than any other year (well, except when I was four years old). Once you take your ACT/SAT all the work is over (if you scored well, that is). Then you can stop doing homework and let your grades take a plunge cause they don't care as long as you tested high and passed your senior classes.

Than again, I was a slacker (definition: figured out how to get a little work to go a long way, now a days corporations call this practice "working smarter, not harder"). I suppose if you're an "over-achieving" sort of person then you're going to be short of Tolkien time your entire life. Poor thing.

but does anyone else know if Feanor retained his firstborn status in later versions?

Sounds like a job for Maedhros, or one of the other Revised-Silmarillion people.

[Maédhros]

I'll assume that your memory is still foggy on this subject, but does anyone else know if Fëanor retained his firstborn status in later versions?

I'm not sure what do you mean. In some of the earliest versions, Fëanor was not the first but second son of Finwë. He was at first the son of Bruithwir.
In the later versions, he is the first son of Finwë and Míriel and he is born in Valinor.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

So, I guess there's not a Borders (or another similar bookstore) anyplace close to you?

Phantom, I live in the middle of nowhere. Not really, but the closest bookstore to me is a college one (one of my favorites, but I don't get to go there much) and that's at least 15 minutes in a direction that nobody I ride with ever goes in, and that I don't think carries Tolkien's work beyond the basics (Hobbit, LotR, Silm, and some general M.E. guides). The one bookstore around here that I'm generally certain has got it is just over 20 minutes away, in the opposite direction from the college one.

Once you take your ACT/SAT all the work is over (if you scored well, that is). Then you can stop doing homework and let your grades take a plunge cause they don't care as long as you tested high and passed your senior classes.

SATs are over and done with, with good enough scores that I can brag to any potential grandkids I might end up with , but no slacking off until I ship out college applications. After that? Calculus gets dropped (my counselor was being a jerk and managed to out-reason me on dropping it when I chatted with him Wednesday).

I'm not sure what do you mean.

As you say, Feanor was the first son of Finwe and Miriel. The Phantom also mentioned that Feanor was at one point (?) the FIRST of all the Children of Illuvatar to be born, as opposed to waking up. First conceived, first born, he was the first of the Elves in that sense. He was the oldest of his generation. My question is, did that (his being first of the generation) carry over to the most recent texts?

Fea

[the phantom]

In the later versions, he is the first son of Finwë and Míriel and he is born in Valinor.

Yes, but we would like to know if the later versions say anything about him being the first of the entire second generation (as Tolkien said at one time in the Annals of Aman).

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Yes, but we would like to know if the later versions say anything about him being the first of the entire second generation (as Tolkien said at one time in the Annals of Aman).

But if this interpretation of the line in question is correct, what are we to make of Mandos' response: "Not the first"?

[the phantom]

But if this interpretation of the line in question is correct, what are we to make of Mandos' response: "Not the first"?

Well, that's not a question for me to answer because I personally don't think Feanor meant that when he called himself the first. Someone else brought up the idea and I just gave 'em some book quotes.

My primary concern with the timing of Feanor's birth is this- did the idea of him being the first-born Elf make it to any later versions or was it refuted- or neglected perhaps?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

But if this interpretation of the line in question is correct, what are we to make of Mandos' response: "Not the first"?

Which is why we must first find out if it is a correct interpretation, aye?

Fea

[the phantom]

You know, SP, even though I don't agree with the interpretation I'll try to answer your question anyway.

When Mandos says "Not the first" it means "I don't know what I am talking about." I mean, if Feanor is the first but Mandos says he isn't, Mandos is in error, right? I guess he has Feanor's birthday marked wrong in his datebook. That's probably why, after Mandos says his line, the book says-

but they did not understand his word

Because he had his dates mixed up.

Yet another illustration of the Valar being wrong. Yes! Maybe I should buy into this interpretation after all.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Would it not be incredibly amusing if, by Mandos saying "not the first", it was Tolkien making a subtle reference to the fact that he had changed birth orders around a little, but the characters had yet to be informed (with the exception, of course, of Mandos)?

Fea

[Voralphion]

With regards to Feanor's quote, he meant that he would be the first of the eldar to be slain in Aman. Mandos' reply then refered to the fact that Finwe had already at that point been slain, but of course that was yet unknown by the others present. An earlier version of that passage had Feanor saying,"Then I will die; first of all the eldar in Aman" but this was changed because it was well known that Miriel had already died.
I believe in HoME X Morgoth's Ring when the earlier version of the story is given, it says the quote refers to being slain not anything else.

[the phantom]

With regards to Feanor's quote, he meant that he would be the first of the eldar to be slain in Aman. Mandos' reply then refered to the fact that Finwe had already at that point been slain

Of course. I think about everyone here (I know I do) thinks this is the correct interpretation.

However, what we're trying to do is toss out the obvious and try something not so obvious- and see if we can somehow justify it. We're just having some fun.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Exactly phantom. I am generally certain that Feanor and Mandos spoke of being slain, but this is more of a "What if we are over-thinking this entirely?" sort of a question being posed. In the RW, "What if?" is the most dangerous question there is, however it is safe in reference to literature. So... what if we were wrong? What if it meant something different. What if people are misjudging Feanor, simply because they misunderstood what he was saying? What if he wasn't an arrogant berk, but was simply Captain Obvious? You see my point?

Fea

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

*nudge*

I'd like to see if anybody has new ideas there are new faces about these days.

[mormegil]

Feanor,

I don’t' know exactly what you are looking for but I will give you my opinion of Feanor though it is probably fairly well known.

I find him extremely haughty and arrogant. It is rather well known that Feanor was probably the greatest of all elves. Now this to me has always meant that he had great power, knowledge, skill and influence. He has a major underlying character flaw that proves to be his undoing. The greatest problem with Feanor is that due to his stature he brought down many associated with him.

His statement that you initially questioned simply illustrates his extreme self-absorption.

There has been much talk about the kin slaying and I'm not sure I want to reopen that can of worms but I feel that blame belongs to those who initiated it, and in my eyes that is Feanor. How can we blame Manwe for that? He thought he did what would be best for the elves and invited them to live in Valinor. There was no obligation for them to accept and many did not. Therefore they did not hinder their departure but thinking that the departure was in folly they did not aid it.

Now again Feanor had great influence and knowledge, but he was too egotistical to allow that to help other people and to better society. Everything he did was for self-promotion and didn't really care much about anybody else.

I have other things to speak about but I feel that this will spark some conversation in this thread. I do not wish, however, for what I am saying to be viewed as Feanor-bashing but I truly believe him an integral character but reprehensible.

[Aiwendil]

Everything he did was for self-promotion and didn't really care much about anybody else.

I don't want to enter into a blame Feanor/forgive Feanor debate (which I think is a highly subjective thing), but I don't think it's quite correct to say that he didn't care much about anybody but himself. While I agree that he was self-centered, he did at least care very much for his father and for his sons. Cf. his reaction when he learns that Finwe is dead (and I believe there is a comment from the narrator here emphasizing Feanor's love for his father) as well as the story in HoMe XII where he accidentally kills his youngest son - the latter is the only case I can think of where Feanor shows remorse or regret for one of his own actions.

[Gurthang]

Originally Posted by mormegil

There has been much talk about the kin slaying and I'm not sure I want to reopen that can of worms but I feel that blame belongs to those who initiated it, and in my eyes that is Feanor.

True.

From the Slimarillion; Of the Flight of the Noldor
Thereupon Feanor left him, and sat in dark thought beyond the walls of Alqualonde, until his host was assembled. When he judged that his strength was enough, he went to the Haven of the Swans and began to man the ships that were anchored there and to take them away by force.

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

I don't think it's quite correct to say that he didn't care much about anybody but himself.

Mostly true.

From the Slimarillion; Of the Flight of the Noldor
Then Feanor ran from the Ring of Doom, and fled into the night; for his father was dearer to him than the Light of Valinor or the peerless works of his hands; and who among sons, of Elves or of Men, have held their fathers of greater worth?

But,

From the Slimarillion; Of Feanor and the Unchaining of Melkor
For Feanor was driven by the fire of his own heart only, working ever swiftly and alone; and he asked the aid and sought the counsel of none that dwelt in Aman, great or small, save only and for a little while of Nerdanel the wise, his wife.

[the phantom]

Most of the Feanor debate is open for opinions and everyone can support their side somewhat, but there is one point you made that is not supportable at all.

...didn't really care much about anybody else

Not true. From the Silmarillion-

Then Feanor ran from the Ring of Doom, and fled into the night; for his father was dearer to him than the Light of Valinor or the peerless works of his hands; and who among sons, of Elves or of Men, have held their fathers of greater worth?

People try and dehumanize Feanor because it makes it easier to hate him.

Don't do that.

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by the phantom

People try and dehumanize Feanor because it makes it easier to hate him.

Don't do that.

I agree that my words were a bit rash but the idea remains intact still. His primary focus in life was self, more so than even the most arrogant. To essential leave your wife because she is no longer of use to your work is awful. I think his love for his dad was great and for his sons too, but for his sons it was a bit twisted in having them swear the oath with him they brought much pain and suffering to them. Again he loved his sons but because of his self-importance they followed him through pain and sorrow that didn't necessarily need be.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

I don't want to enter into a blame Feanor/forgive Feanor debate (which I think is a highly subjective thing),

Wouldn't such a debate be rather ridiculous? In order for Feanor to require for forgiveness, he must first be responsible for having done wrong (ie. be blamed).

A very minor point, mainly pointed out for its amusement factor.

[Aiwendil]

Well, you can play semantic games with "forgive", "excuse", "blame", and so on. It all depends on how you want to formally define the terms, which is arbitrary. But in ordinary discourse, they are vague and can take on a number of subtly different meanings.

[Felagund]

So, this comes to mind... were the Noldor not the slavation of Men? Imagine had they never sailed out of Aman, that Fëanor had been placated, everyone went back to their peaceful little existence in Tirion upon Tuna, or the slopes of Taniquetil, or on the shores of the Bay of Eldamar... then what of Men?

They would not have been exposed to the Eldar in Middle-Earth, merely the Sindar and the Nandor, and would not have probably become as noble as they did. And that's the least of it... They obviously would have been subjugated by Morgoth. Unquestionably. You think the Valar would have come to their aid? You bet your cute little elfy behinds they wouldn't have. Even the Sindar, who were next in line in power and wisdom to the Eldar were left to what would have been their eventual doom.

And now... imagine complete domination of Middle-Earth by Morgoth. Valinor, by default, becomes an outpost in an altogether hostile world. Eventually, Morgoth builds up a huge host of Orcs and evil Men( he has all of the world's life-span in which to do it, mind you. And both orcs and men breed much faster than elves. It's a game of numbers, in which the Eldar and Valar quickly become outstripped) and finds some way to cross the Great Sea... and assaults Valinor. Inevitably, Valinor is overrun, the Valar are dragged to Angband in chains and locked in the deepest pits under the Iron Mountains. The Eldar are enslaved or slain, and the world is Morgoth's until the great ending. Pretty picture huh?

So, now let us look at the results of Fëanor's "rebellion" (which was obviously divinely inspired). The Noldor arrive in Middle-Earth, and sap the power of Morgoth (and themselves, but that's not the issue), and occupy his attentions, so that he has not time to utterly corrupt the houses of Men migrating westwards. The three houses of the Edain meet the Noldor in Beleriand, and join the fight against Morgoth. The also receive some of the power and wisdom that the Noldor have to give, and, though almost utterly destroyed in the War of the Jewels, ultimately survive to found Numenor. Then they come to Middle-Earth, and free it from the domination of Sauron. Twice (one time helped by midgets, but whatever).

Now, that's looking rather far afield, but without Fëanor's rebellion...
a) the story would not be allowed to unfold in the way it did
b) Valinor would have been conquered by Morgoth, after he had sufficiently gathered enough strength and sorcery to overcome the combined might of the Valar (which he would have enough time to do, without being occupied with a costly war against semi-divine, pointy-eared beings).
Thoughts? I spent alot of time hewing caves in silence thinking about this one.



"Their oath shall drive them, and yet betray them, and ever snatch away the very treasures they have sworn to pursue."

[Gurthang]

Originally Posted by Felagund

And now... imagine complete domination of Middle-Earth by Morgoth. Valinor, by default, becomes an outpost in an altogether hostile world. Eventually, Morgoth builds up a huge host of Orcs and evil Men( he has all of the world's life-span in which to do it, mind you. And both orcs and men breed much faster than elves. It's a game of numbers, in which the Eldar and Valar quickly become outstripped) and finds some way to cross the Great Sea... and assaults Valinor. Inevitably, Valinor is overrun, the Valar are dragged to Angband in chains and locked in the deepest pits under the Iron Mountains. The Eldar are enslaved or slain, and the world is Morgoth's until the great ending. Pretty picture huh?

Getting right down to it, an assault on Valinor did happen. Except it was not during Morgoth's time. The Numenoreans, led by Ar-Pharazon, were corrupted by Sauron and enticed to make war on Valinor. They set sail to assault the Undying Lands, and would have caused great havoc, had they been challenged on the shore. Here's what happened.

From Akallabeth
But pride was now [Ar-Pharazon's] master, and at last he left his ship and strode upon the shore, claiming the land for his own, if none should do battle for it. And a host of the Numenoreans encamped in might about Tuna, whence all the Eldar had fled.

Then Manwe upon the Mountain called upon Iluvatar, and for that time the Valar laid down their government of Arda. But Iluvatar showed forth his power, and he changed the fashion of the world; a great chasm opened in the sea between Numenor and the Deathless Lands, and the waters flowed down into it, and the noise and smoke of the cataracts went up to heaven, and the world was shaken. And all the fleets of the Numenoreans were drawn down into the abyss, and they were drowned and swallowed up for ever. But Ar-Pharazon the King and the mortal warriors that had set foot upon the land of Aman were buried under falling hills; there it is said that they lie imprisoned in the Caves of the Forgotten, until the Last Battle and the Day of Doom.

So really Feanor has little to do with whether or not Valinor is assaulted.

But you do make a good point about him 'saving' Men from Morgoth. Without the Noldor to keep Morgoth at bay, he would have overrun Middle-Earth and all Men would have either been under him or destroyed for rebelling. The Dwarves also would likely have been destroyed, too, although it would have taken much more time. They had already been in Middle-Earth for some time, and had significant fortresses and cities. They would have held out much longer than Men.

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by Felagund

You think the Valar would have come to their aid? You bet your cute little elfy behinds they wouldn't have.

What evidence or proof do we have of this? Are you saying that the Valar cared little or nothing of the Edain? Feanor putting his little plan into action more than likely changed the course of thought of the Valar and they couldn't not aid them and stated so

No aid will the Valar lend you in this quest; but neither will they hinder you' for this ye shall know: as ye came hither freely, freely shall ye depart. But thou Feanor Finwe's son, by thine oath are exiled. The lies of Melkor thoug shalt unlearn in bitterness.

Men came to the aid of the Noldor and thereby were unable to receive the aid of the Valar in that quest. Had Feanor never embarked on such a futile quest, who knows what the Valar would have done in their councils. Did they not come in the end and did they not once before defeat Melkor for the benefit of one of Eru's children, why not then the second born? To say the Valar would not aid the Edain is a bit specious and not in harmony with the greatness of spirit of the Valar.

[Anguirel]

Originally Posted by mormegil

What evidence or proof do we have of this? Are you saying that the Valar cared little or nothing of the Edain?

That's about the size of it. The Valar treated the coming of Men like a dirty secret, hiding it from the Firstborn so that they could stay in their pretty isolationist bubble with their equally pretty Elves. They helped only when the Eldar and Edain were wellnigh destroyed, even then with a display of might that was intended to awe Elves and Men into submission, destroying the lands the Noldor, Sindar and Edain had nurtured.

To say the Valar would not aid the Edain is a bit specious and not in harmony with the greatness of spirit of the Valar.

When do we see this greatness of spirit? No redress was offered to Feanor for the fact that a prisoner the Valar had released killed his father. The Teleri were set against a departure that the Noldor had to make as a result. No aid was given to the Noldor who crossed the Helcaraxe, almost all of whom were innocent of Telerin blood. The Valar gave little help in the wars against Morgoth, with the single honourable exception of Ulmo; by doing this they allowed the Edain to suffer. Without the intervention of Eru they would have separated Beren and Luthien. They refused and drowned the mariners who sailed with Voronwe. And so it goes on.

[The Saucepan Man]

The question for me is whether the departure of the Noldor from Valinor necessarily required the crimes which Feanor was undoubtedly guilty of to be committed.

I think not.

Admittedly, it was Feanor's strength of will and fiery spirit which sparked the impulse to leave. But is it not possible that the same result (in terms of saving the Edain from the clutches of Morgoth) could have been achieved with less grief and anguish had Feanor tempered his impulsiveness with a touch of humility? Perhaps, had he not spoken in such forthright and angry terms, the Valar would have permitted the Noldor to depart and sanctioned the use of Teleri ships for that purpose.

And, even if not, was the burning of the ships (Feanor's greatest crime, in my opinion) really necessary? It was Feanor's arrogance and self-importance which led him to order that this deed be done, thus precipitating great suffering and loss among the following Noldorin host.

[mormegil]

When do we see this greatness of spirit?

A couple of things come to my mind instantly with that question. These were they who were willing to leave the presence of Illuvatar and come down to help set in order the arrival of his children.

The fact that they had belief in Melkor to set him free shows not ignorance but greatness of spirit. Believing that any could be given a second chance and reform.

As far as redress to Feanor, it was not they who committed the act so what redress do you mean. Also if you remember Feanor didn't give them much time to even think about that before he went and swore his little oath.

The Teleri were set against a departure that the Noldor had to make as a result.

The Noldor didn't have to make any such departure. Feanor and his sons did due to their oath but Finarfin and his host did not make such a depature. And as I already quoted the Valar told the Noldor before they went away that they would receive no aid from them in this quest. So the host that crossed the Helcaraxe were going forward to still be part of Feanor's overall quest.

Without the intervention of Eru they would have separated Beren and Luthien.

This is a rather false claim. As we know Luthien sung before Mandos who was moved to pity and it is written:

But Mandos had no power to withhold the spirits of Men that were dead within the confines of the world, after their time of waiting; nor could he change the fates of the Children of Illuvatar. He went therefore to Manwe, Lord of the Valar, who governed the world under the hand of Illuvatar; and Manwe sought counsel in his inmost thought, where the will of Illuvatar was revealed.

It was through the Valar that Beren and Luthien's fate was able to be decided. They needed further insight and revelation. Again the greatness of their spirit is shown here; they knew that they didn't know all and were humble enough to ask.

All of this talk of Manwe being inept is rather ludicrious as this quote shows. Manwe was, by appointment from Eru, governor of all the land. So it comes to my mind that while not perfect, Eru trusted him to lead and maybe Feanor should have as well. If anybody had the right or position to know Eru's will is was Manwe and not Feanor.

Edit: Cross posted with SpM and I agree with what you said completely.

[Formendacil]

As regards the Valar coming to the aid of the Edain...

I wouldn't be so certain that they wouldn't have gone to war. They went to war against Melkor when the coming of the Elves was imminent, for their sake, despite being rather slothful and inward-looking in Valinor before that.

Personally, I think that had the Noldor not marched off to Middle-Earth, the Valar would eventually have shaken off the cobwebs of feat (no doubt prompted by Ulmo and Tulkas), and made war for the benefit of Men, who would now have awakened, so that there would no longer be a fear of hurting the unborn Men in their resting place.

Furthermore, the situation as it would have been in Middle-Earth at the time of Man's awakening had the Noldor not come to Middle-Earth would have been extremely similar to the situation there after the fall of the Elf-Kingdoms in Beleriand, and the extermination of the Elves at the hands of each other in the 3rd Kinslaying.

It might not have been Earendil's plea which stirred them, but I think the Valar would have had to come back to war eventually. And with no Ban or Curse on the Noldor, they would not have had their pride to urge them to stay at home, but rather to urge them on.

[the phantom]

Personally, I think that had the Noldor not marched off to Middle-Earth, the Valar would eventually have shaken off the cobwebs

but I think the Valar would have had to come back to war eventually

I notice, Formendacil, that you used "eventually" in both of those statements. Yes- "eventually" is the key word when it comes to the Valar.

But the problem- the way things stood in the world at the time of Feanor's rebellion, "eventually" was not good enough. That's why the rebellion of the Noldor had to happen.

I've made this point elsewhere, but I'll make it again.

Beleriand was about five seconds from being completely overthrown when Feanor landed on the coast. It was actually the burning of the ships that got the attention of Morgoth's armies and kept them from finishing off their opponents. They rushed to attack Feanor, and he and his followers promptly shredded Morgoth's army.

Feanor was barely in time to save Beleriand. If he wouldn't have come when he did and burn the ships then what happens? Here's what- Morgoth overthrows Beleriand, and then he goes east with his armies and wipes out the extremely defenseless dark elves as well as the race of men.

I agree that the Valar would have "eventually" attacked Morgoth, but "eventually" would've been too late.

Eru was not happy with them for waiting so long to attack Morgoth the first time. This HoME quote was used earlier in the thread, but here it is again-

Eru 'accepted and ratified the position' - though making it plain to Manwë that the Valar should have contested Melkor's domination of Middle-earth far earlier, and that they had lacked estel

The Valar had a history of waiting too long.

The solution- the Noldor!

Tolkien even said this-

If we consider the situation after the escape of Morgoth and the reestablishment of his abode in Middle-earth, we shall see that the heroic Noldor were the best possible weapon with which to keep Morgoth at bay, virtually besieged, and at any rate fully occupied, on the northern fringe of Middle-earth without provoking him to a frenzy of nihilistic destruction.

The Noldor were meant to fight Morgoth.

Not only that, but they had to get to Middle-Earth to fight him as soon as they possibly could, because Morgoth was a short inch from overrunning it.

How do you get there quickly without the Teleri's boats?

Answer- you don't.

And so, we have three possible paths.

1) The Teleri lend the Noldor their boats, or ferry them to Middle-Earth. Result- The world is saved.

2) The Teleri don't allow the Noldor to use their boats. Feanor tries to take them and fighting ensues. The Noldor get the boats. Result- The world is saved, but the Noldor and Feanor are forever vilified in the minds of readers everywhere.

3) The Teleri don't allow the Noldor to use their boats. Feanor is too nice to take them by force. Result- Morgoth takes over Middle-Earth and wipes out the race of Man.

Option three results in the good guys losing, so we can toss that one out as a possibility. The only remaining options are 2, the way it happened, and 1, the way it should've happened.

So, as you can see, the choice for how events were going to unfold was completely tied to whether or not Olwe said "yes" to Feanor.

He said "no". And why did he say no? The Silmarillion says Olwe refused because it was "against the will of the Valar".

And so, it is now plain to see that the kinslaying was set in motion the moment the Valar made known that they didn't want the Noldor to leave, and was inevitable once Olwe decided to adhere strictly to the wishes of the Valar.

There are plenty of other points that could be made, but I think this one is a very interesting one. What does it mean? Could the Valar have been expected to do something different? What about Olwe? Or was the bloody exodus of the Noldor unavoidable the moment the Valar released Melkor amongst the elves?

[davem]

Originally Posted by The Phantom

Could the Valar have been expected to do something different? What about Olwe? Or was the bloody exodus of the Noldor unavoidable the moment the Valar released Melkor amongst the elves?

In The Ainulindale we're told that Men have 'the freedom to act beyond the Music, which is as Fate to all things else' - which begs the question of exactly how much freedom of action Valar, Elves & Melkor actually have. If we take Ainulindale literally it would seem that everything they do is fated to happen. I've discussed this before, so I don't want to go into detail, but its entirely possible that the Noldor had to go to Middle-earth, & their only 'freedom' was in how that came about. Feanor could have chosen to go along with the Valar's wishes & offered them the Silmarils to save the Trees, but asked permission to pursue Morgoth to either defeat him in battle or at least keep him at bay. Manwe could then have consulted with Eru, gained his permission for Feanor to lead the Noldor East, etc, etc.

Hence, the events foredoomed by the Music happen, but in a diferent way, because, while the Music is as fate to all but Men in terms of what happens, it doesn't determine the individual moral choices made by Elves & Valar.

Its entirely possible that Feanor, & the Elves generally felt a kind of unconscious drive to act out the Music (or their part in it) but were havig to 'make' themselves do it, come up with reasons - I wake up with this urge to go to London, but don't know why. I can't shake the urge. I must go. I do, however, have the freedom to choose whether I draw the money for the ticket from my bank account, mug some little old lady to get it, hitchhike there, steal a car, etc. Lots of choices, & my freewill plays a major part inhow I get there. The only thing is I don't have a choice in whether or not I go to London. There will be all kinds of consequences for me personally dependent on how I choose to get to my destination, & I will be judged on how I did it & held accountable for my actions.