The Aging of Elves - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Elven-Maiden · 02-24-2002, 07:50 PM

I was wondering. I'm 17, and if I were actually an elf, how old would I look? Would I look like a child, a seventeen year old, or an adult?

Raefindel · 02-24-2002, 07:54 PM

I have thoeries, but no facts. I believe Elves age to about 25 and look the same after that.

Kuruharan · 02-24-2002, 07:57 PM

Don't take this the wrong way, but I think you would be practically a baby. I think Elven childhood lasted something like fifty years.

Raefindel · 02-24-2002, 08:08 PM

Really? I've never heard anything like that .... but I never read the Sil.

Elven-Maiden · 02-24-2002, 08:52 PM

I'm still a baby! Wow, that's kinda cool! I haven't made any dumb mistakes yet then! In Middle Earth, Id still be as innocent as a lamb! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Not to imply that I'm otherwise not.... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Kuruharan · 02-25-2002, 12:17 PM

I could swear that I saw somewhere that Elven childhood lasts for about fifty years. Can't remember where, of course. But I think that it said so somewhere.

Aralaithiel · 02-25-2002, 06:28 PM

Yep, if you were 17 as an elf, you'd be a cute lil' elven babe. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] And I do mean little! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
I think it is 50 man years for an Elven childhood. Now, if only that were true for us humans in the real world! Sigh...
I still prefer my red-headed, slate gray eyed Elven personna to my dark blonde, slate gray eyed mortal in the real world!

Bêthberry · 07-03-2005, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I could swear that I saw somewhere that Elven childhood lasts for about fifty years. Can't remember where, of course. But I think that it said so somewhere.

What a parenting sentence that is! Fifty years. What an incentive to family planning. No wonder elves had so few children.

Estelyn Telcontar · 07-03-2005, 09:41 AM

Hmmmm, that depends on how "good" Elven children were. It certainly explains why Fëanor's mother didn't want to stay around!

However, it seems to me that 33 years of raising a mischievous Hobbit child might have been just as strenuous...

davem · 07-03-2005, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

What a parenting sentence that is! Fifty years. What an incentive to family planning. No wonder elves had so few children.

Laws & Customs among the Eldar (HoMe 10):

Quote:

For at the end of the third year mortal children began to outstrip the Elves, hastening on to full stature while the Elves lingered in the first spring of childhood. Children of Men might reach their full height while Eldar of the same age were still in body like to mortals of no more than seven years. Not until the fiftieth year did the Eldar attain the stature & shape in which their lives would afterwards endure, & for some a hundred years would pass before they were ful grown.

The Eldar wedded for the most part in their youth & soon after their fiftieth year.

It seems that Elves wedded as soon as they reached adulthood, had children of their own soon after, & then got on with more interesting things

. Tolkien at first applied the same condition to Numenorean children, due to their longer life, as to Elves - this extension of 'childhhood' - but later changed his mind.

VanimaEdhel · 07-03-2005, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davem

It seems that Elves wedded as soon as they reached adulthood, had children of their own soon after, & then got on with more interesting things

. Tolkien at first applied the same condition to Numenorean children, due to their longer life, as to Elves - this extension of 'childhhood' - but later changed his mind.

That's very, very interesting when compared to the human tendency to marry within a "time limit" of sorts. The average age that we get married these days is higher than it was centuries ago. This, as opposed to the Elvish reasons, derives from the average lifespan of a human. As that increases, it becomes less urgent for children to marry as soon as they hit sixteen or eighteen. Humans marry and reproduce as soon as needed so that they can have procreated before they grow too old or die. Meanwhile, Elves married and procreated so they wouldn't have to "think about it", practically, for the rest of their confinement on Middle Earth.

But you know, it would also imply that the average Elvish female probably had longer times between cycles than Human women. If they had as many children as they wanted, and then just got on with their lives, you would think that siblings you hear about would be born closer together. Elladan and Elrohir were born 111 years before Arwen - a very interesting number, actually. Unless Elves would have a child or two, let that one grow up and have their own lives, then wait a while, then realize, "Wait: I want another little bundle of joy to nurse for fifty years," have another many years later and so on.

ETA: Bethy, but imagine round-up time at the Feanor household? "We have six...who are we missing? Why can't I remember these things?!" Finarfin and Earwen probably also had a party when the kids got out of the house.

Lalwendë · 07-03-2005, 03:15 PM

It's also worth bearing in mind that having children seems to have taken a toll on Elven women - this is/was being discussed in another thread Luthien and Galadriel - and so it could well have been that Celebrian went through a fair amount of struggle in bearing twins!

What interests me is that if it was a custom to marry at a young age, would characters such as Arwen have been seen as 'on the shelf'

as it's so delightfully put these days? There seem to be a fair few characters who this would apply to, including Legolas, so was it a case of the higher status Elves having to wait longer until a partner who was 'approved of' was found?

davem · 07-03-2005, 04:26 PM

To go against my earlier post somewhat, I think we have to take it as read that 'Laws & Customs' relates mainly to the Eldar in Valinor. In Arda things may have been very different - Tolkien implies as much - due to the much more dangerous situation the Elves found themselves in. Certainly Elrond was much older than fifty when he married Celebrian.

Its been stated elswhere that the probable reason there were no Elf children born during the later Third Age was due to the growing sense of hopelessness & the deepening sense of not belonging in Middle earth that the Elves felt. Probably true. Having children implies commitment - not just to the spouse but to the world & its future. Feeling that their time in the world was over, that (like Niggle) they soon had a journey to make, probably inspired in them a desire to finish their (percieved) tasks in Middle earth & have their bags packed, ready to leave.

I suspect that this also played a part in their 'passivity' - they knew that soon they would be leaving. In that situation it can be difficult to commit to anything. I suppose in a way, this sense of an oncoming end of their time in Middle earth was the closest thing an Elf could experience to 'mortality'. It was like they knew they were going to 'die' & go to 'Paradise' - albeit an 'Earthly' one. There must have been an incredible sense of 'failure', which probably produced their feelings that all they were doing was 'fighting the long defeat', 'many defeats & many fruitless victories' as Elrond put it.

02-24-2002, 07:50 PM	#1
Elven-Maiden Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 297	The Aging of Elves I was wondering. I'm 17, and if I were actually an elf, how old would I look? Would I look like a child, a seventeen year old, or an adult? __________________ Tout ce qui est or ne brille pas, Tous ceux qui errent ne sont pas perdus. Mobilis in Mobile

02-24-2002, 07:54 PM	#2
Raefindel Sword of the Spirit Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Washington State Posts: 1,313	I have thoeries, but no facts. I believe Elves age to about 25 and look the same after that. __________________ Blessed be the Lord my Strength, Who trained my hands for war and my fingers to fight. Psallm 144:1

02-24-2002, 07:57 PM	#3
Kuruharan Regal Dwarven Shade Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold Posts: 3,591	Don't take this the wrong way, but I think you would be practically a baby. I think Elven childhood lasted something like fifty years. __________________ ...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no...

02-24-2002, 08:08 PM	#4
Raefindel Sword of the Spirit Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Washington State Posts: 1,313	Really? I've never heard anything like that .... but I never read the Sil. __________________ Blessed be the Lord my Strength, Who trained my hands for war and my fingers to fight. Psallm 144:1

02-24-2002, 08:52 PM	#5
Elven-Maiden Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 297	I'm still a baby! Wow, that's kinda cool! I haven't made any dumb mistakes yet then! In Middle Earth, Id still be as innocent as a lamb! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Not to imply that I'm otherwise not.... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ Tout ce qui est or ne brille pas, Tous ceux qui errent ne sont pas perdus. Mobilis in Mobile

02-25-2002, 12:17 PM	#6
Kuruharan Regal Dwarven Shade Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold Posts: 3,591	I could swear that I saw somewhere that Elven childhood lasts for about fifty years. Can't remember where, of course. But I think that it said so somewhere. __________________ ...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no...

02-25-2002, 06:28 PM	#7
Aralaithiel Ghost Eldaran Queen Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A remote mountain in Valinor Posts: 353	Yep, if you were 17 as an elf, you'd be a cute lil' elven babe. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] And I do mean little! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] I think it is 50 man years for an Elven childhood. Now, if only that were true for us humans in the real world! Sigh... I still prefer my red-headed, slate gray eyed Elven personna to my dark blonde, slate gray eyed mortal in the real world! __________________ A lelyat, wen! (Quenya Elvish for "You go, girl!"

07-03-2005, 09:41 AM	#9
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	Hmmmm, that depends on how "good" Elven children were. It certainly explains why Fëanor's mother didn't want to stay around! However, it seems to me that 33 years of raising a mischievous Hobbit child might have been just as strenuous... __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

07-03-2005, 03:15 PM	#12
Lalwendë A Mere Boggart Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under the bed Posts: 4,737	It's also worth bearing in mind that having children seems to have taken a toll on Elven women - this is/was being discussed in another thread Luthien and Galadriel - and so it could well have been that Celebrian went through a fair amount of struggle in bearing twins! What interests me is that if it was a custom to marry at a young age, would characters such as Arwen have been seen as 'on the shelf' as it's so delightfully put these days? There seem to be a fair few characters who this would apply to, including Legolas, so was it a case of the higher status Elves having to wait longer until a partner who was 'approved of' was found? __________________ Gordon's alive!

07-03-2005, 04:26 PM	#13
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	To go against my earlier post somewhat, I think we have to take it as read that 'Laws & Customs' relates mainly to the Eldar in Valinor. In Arda things may have been very different - Tolkien implies as much - due to the much more dangerous situation the Elves found themselves in. Certainly Elrond was much older than fifty when he married Celebrian. Its been stated elswhere that the probable reason there were no Elf children born during the later Third Age was due to the growing sense of hopelessness & the deepening sense of not belonging in Middle earth that the Elves felt. Probably true. Having children implies commitment - not just to the spouse but to the world & its future. Feeling that their time in the world was over, that (like Niggle) they soon had a journey to make, probably inspired in them a desire to finish their (percieved) tasks in Middle earth & have their bags packed, ready to leave. I suspect that this also played a part in their 'passivity' - they knew that soon they would be leaving. In that situation it can be difficult to commit to anything. I suppose in a way, this sense of an oncoming end of their time in Middle earth was the closest thing an Elf could experience to 'mortality'. It was like they knew they were going to 'die' & go to 'Paradise' - albeit an 'Earthly' one. There must have been an incredible sense of 'failure', which probably produced their feelings that all they were doing was 'fighting the long defeat', 'many defeats & many fruitless victories' as Elrond put it. __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects."