Concerning Elf-friends

[HerenIstarion]

Well, how people do acquire title of an elf-friend?
General requisite is to be, well, friendly and of use to elves. In the first age title is applied to the whole peoples (three kindred of elf-friends), as well as in particular cases for those who were of great valour in prooving their friendship. In the second age the picture is much the same, but criteria is slightly different. Now we have particular p0ersons, who rended some service to elves, and whole peoples, who, maybe, haven’t seen an elf in their whole life, yet are considered elf-friends for the mere knowledge of the elven tongues: for the first case:

Long I have owed you thanks, for you have so many times sent to me your son Anardil Aldarion: the greatest Elf-friend that now is among Men, as I deem

that is Gil-Galad in his letter to Tar-Meneldur concerning latter’s son Aldarion.
but, as was said above, the knowledge of Noldorin (or even Sindarin) is sufficient in the case:

If she came through the settled lands of Gondor," .they said, "she would not be molested, and might receive help; for the Men of Gondor are good, and they are ruled by descendants of the Elf-friends of old who can still speak our tongue, after a fashion; but in the mountains are many unfriendly Men and evil things."

stress falls on ability to talk elven tongue, and in Gondorin case it is Sindarin allright.

And sometimes the title is even name for a political party, i.e “elendili” of Numenor

But the most fully the requisite of language is expressed in FoTR

. ‘I thank you indeed, Gildor Inglorion,’ said Frodo bowing. ‘Elen síla lúmenn’ omentielvo, a star shines on the hour of our meeting,’ he added in the high-elven speech.
‘Be careful, friends!’ cried Gildor laughing. ‘Speak no secrets! Here is a scholar in the Ancient Tongue. Bilbo was a good master. Hail, Elf-friend!’ he said, bowing to Frodo. ‘Come now with your friends and join our company! You had best walk in the middle so that you may not stray. You may be weary before we halt.’

this is the first time Frodo is named Elf-Friend, and here it’s not stressed, goes without solemnity, somehow there is a feeling it just slipped off Gildor’s lips unconsciously. Next time he does it on purpose:

Courage is found in unlikely places,’ said Gildor. ‘Be of good hope! Sleep now! In the morning we shall have gone; but we will send our messages through the lands. The Wandering Companies shall know of your journey, and those that have power for good shall be on the watch. I name you Elf-friend; and may the stars shine upon the end of your road! Seldom have we had such delight in strangers, and it is fair to hear words of the Ancient Speech from the lips of other wanderers in the world.’

He applies Elf-friend to Frodo as a title, but again because it is fair to hear words of the Ancient Speech from the lips of other wanderers in the world

So, thechnically, even evil person knowing Noldorin can acquire such a title? I think not, for, decency is required too:

I beg of you," said Bilbo stammering and standing on one foot, "to accept this gift!" and he brought out a necklace of silver and pearls that Dain had given him at their parting.
"In what way have I earned such a gift, O hobbit?" said the king.
"Well, er, I thought, don't you know," said Bilbo rather confused, "that, er, some little return should be made for your, er, hospitality. I mean even a burglar has his feelings. I have drunk much of your wine and eaten much of your bread."
"I will take your gift, O Bilbo the Magnificent!" said the king gravely. "And I name you elf-friend and blessed. May your shadow never grow less (or stealing would be too easy)! Farewell!"

Bilbo is rewarded with the title for his honesty and kindness, and it’s not clear does he know elvish already at the moment, or this knowledge comes to him later on, as well as whatever is said before this of Thranduil’s greed and his love of “white gems”, he cannot be bribed so easily, can he?

As a conclusion: term “elf-friend” has two possible meanings:

1) somehow political, expressing general outlook of the person bearing the title.
2) inner, expressing state of his fea

in the former sense title may be applied by the person himself, and even without any elf nearby, i.e Faramir and Eomer both fight against Dark Lord, But Faramir is an elf-friend, and Eomer is not, though neither is seen to have connections with elves (up to a moment)
in latter sense the process like to a kind of initiation, the title is applied by an elf, usually is expressed by the verb “to name” and written with capital E (I name you an Elf-friend), and, most interesting of all, title in such sense implies change of inner state of a initiatd person. For Frodo, after being “elffriended” by Gildor, is described thus:

Welcome!’ she said. ‘I had not heard that folk of the Shire were so sweet-tongued. But I see you are an elf-friend; the light in your eyes and the ring in your voice tells it. This is a merry meeting

That’s Goldberry in Bombadil’s house welcoming Frodo. Still more, the Change is noticed by more sensitive kind of folk only, for Pippin, Merry and Sam don’t notice any new ring in the voice or light in the eyes of Frodo

[Elven-Maiden]

Hmm... very well thought-out topic. I'd never have been able to come up with all that.

[Airetalathwen]

So, do you think that Frodo was actually changed after he was named Elf-friend by Gildor? (I'm very interested!)

~Airetalathwen

[Child of the 7th Age]

So, do you think that Frodo was actually changed after he was named Elf-friend by Gildor? (I'm very interested!)

Alretalathwen -- This question really interests me too. I don't know the answer, but I do know that this is not the only place in the book where there is a special light in Frodo's face. And the place where Sam first noticed that light in Frodo's face was apparently in Rivendell, which would also tie in with the Elf-friend theme.

It goes like this. In the depths of Mordor while Frodo slept, Sam watched, then remembered and commented:

He was reminded suddenly of Frodo as he had lain, asleep in the house of Elrond, after his deadly wound. Then as he had kept watch Sam had noticed that at times a light seemed to be shining faintly within; but now the light was even clearer and stronger. Frodo's face was peaceful, the marks of fear and care had left it; but it looked old, old and beautiful, as if the chiselling of the shaping years was now revealed in many fine lines that had before been hidden, though the identity of the face had not changed. He shook his head , as if finding words useless, and murmured: 'I love him. He's like that, and sometimes it shines through, somehow. But I love him, whether or no. (II, 260)

The amazing thing about this passage is the fact that Frodo's face looked "old and beautiful." We all know that the one thing the Ring does is to preserve the bearer in a stretched, taut state of youth that will not go away until the Ring itself is put down (e.g., Bilbo's experience). But, here, it is as if the light in Frodo's face protects him, at least momentarily, from that artificial state of youth. This light which apparently has some connection with Frodo's status as an Elf-friend and his ability to sense the otherworldly quality of Lorien in an almost mystical sense. I would call it, on some level, a spiritual gift or light that gives him at least a measue of protection against the lure of the Ring itself. It functions like Galadriel's phial, but on the inside instead of the outside.

HerenIstarion-- Your knowledge of this subject is amazing. I can add one small thing, athough it simply comes from reading someone else's essay. Have you read "The Footsteps of Aelfwine" by Verlyn Flieger? It is published in Tolkien's Legendarium, Essays on the History of Middle Earth.

This essay looks at a range of Tolkien's Elf-friends, those in the Lord of the Rings plus many who only appear in the History of Middle-earth. The former include Aragorn, Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam. The latter group focus on Aelfwine the Mariner and his alter ego Eriol the Mariner who are in the Book of Lost Tails; the time travel story figure, the Numenorean Elendil (Quenya for Elf-friend), and the later characters Alboin Errol and Alwin Lowdham and the latter's father Edwin Loudham; plus Smith of Wooten major and his mysterious grandfather.

The essay argues that one important characteristic of an Elf-friend is to act as a link between the world of faery and the world of man. As Flieger explains, on some level, Tolkien saw himself as rediscovering an already existing myth, rather than creating a new story. There are many places in the Letters where Tolkien alludes to this, seeing revelation as a component of sub-creation.

Now, in order to reveal a myth, it as to come from somewhere else. So the Elf-friend has one foot in the story and one foot outside of it. i.e. he acts as a link between the natural world and the world of faerie.

The Elf-friend may act as a storyteller or singer in the book, revealing some of the existing mythology. For example, Frodo, Sam, and Aragorn present songs and stories which capture some of the earlier mythology. Or the Elf-friend may actually write down the myths themselves into another book to transmit the stories on. For example, Elendil is said to have written down his Elvish stories in a book, and the later Aelfwin is also said to possess such a book. Bilbo's Translations from the Elvish are presumed to be an extension or translation plus comments from these earlier sources. This is how the stories in the Red Book of Westmarch are produced and passed down to Tolkien.

Tolkien himself then is framed as the overarching Elf-friend, since he takes the already existing Red Book (at least that's what he says!) and passes it on to us in an English translation of the Silm, Hobbit, and LoTR. He does the same thing as Elendil, Aelfwine, Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam-- just in a later time frame!

I find this idea or literary device absolutely intriguing. In my opinion, you could even take this one step further. Let me show you what I mean by quoting the dedication to Tolkien's Legendarium:

We dedicate this book with gratitude to Christopher Tolkien. By his labors ahd service --pridda sunu his faeder--he is like his father,-- Aelfwine Widlast,-- "Elf-Friend the Far-travelled" --but by the same neither his father nor he is any longer Eriol--One who dreams alone."

This last sentence is fascinating because it pulls us into the story too. We are the ones who dream Tolkien's dreams after him and so we too are Elf-friends in a very small way! sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[ April 29, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

I think that the title of "Elf-Friend" is reserved for those of an other race who are in good standing and service to the Elves. I do not think that it confers any kind of special mark or spiritual power, but is rather made to bolster the reputation of the individual to whom the title is confered and to, perhaps, assure that other Elves aid the individual should that person have a need.

[HerenIstarion]

I haven't said anything about power, but mark it leaves allright, and it is processed too solemnly to be mere assurance of stray elves help, whom, in case it left no mark, should take aforesaid person's claim of being an elf-friend upon his word. And it's rather odd to imagine person wandering about claiming: look at me, I'm an elf friend. The thing is somehow always guessed out all by itself, as in Goldberry's case. Anyway, elves are Good People, they will help anyone in dire need, or so I have heard [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[HerenIstarion]

We are the ones who dream Tolkien's dreams after him and so we too are Elf-friends in a very small way! sharon, the 7th age hobbit

I'm happy to dream. My life would have been poorer by far without those dreams, to tell the truth

[ October 28, 2002: Message edited by: HerenIstarion ]

[Child of the 7th Age]

I'm happy to dream. mu life would have been poorer by far without those dreams, to tell the truth

HerenIstarion,

I certainly agree with you!

It's interesting. There are no women in Tolkien's stated list of Elf-friends, perhaps because a number of the key women in the tales are themselves Elves., i.e. Arwen, Luthien, Galadriel.

Yet, although she is not specifically named as an Elf-friend, I wonder if Andreth does not fall in this category? Her love of Aegnor, her friendship with Finrod, the close ties of the house of Beor with the Elven kin--all these are suggestive. Moreover, her status as a wise woman means that she was involved in the preservation and transmission of lore, which was another prerequisite.

A case could also be made for Adanel.

Both of these characters evolved only in the last years of JRRT's life.

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[Birdland]

I think that the title of "Elf-Friend" is reserved for those of an other race who are in good standing and service to the Elves. I do not think that it confers any kind of special mark or spiritual power, but is rather made to bolster the reputation of the individual to whom the title is confered and to, perhaps, assure that other Elves aid the individual should that person have a need.

Mmmmmmm...I have the feeling it confers a little more than that, Raven, since it is not granted often. To Frodo and the Hobbits, it may have seemed little more than a kindness and a polite phrase, but I think it is more in the realm of a true blessing, with all the wisdom and "magic" of the Elf-Kind packed behind it. It's suggested that the bearer of the title almost radiates his status, so that it is recognized by others without mention. It may even bestow, as others have said, a small part of Elven grace on the bearer.

I think Gildor did a little more than just put Frodo on the Rivendell guest list.

[Raefindel]

I've ressurected this thread because I found something I thought was interesting. This is from

the Hobbit Page 51 Speaking of Elrond

Now the master of the house was an Elf-friend-one of those people whose fathers came into the strange stories before the biginning of History, the wars of the evil goblins and the Elves and the first men in the North. In those days of our tale there were some people who had both Elves and Heroes of the North for ancestors, and Elrond, the Master of the House was their chief.

In this quote not only is Elrond referred to as an Elf-friend, rather than Half-Elven, but it seems to imply that his ancestory is the reason for the title.

What are your thoughts?

[ December 01, 2002: Message edited by: Raefindel ]

[HerenIstarion]

He qualifies for the title on both grounds:

• He knows elven language
  
• His ancestors are elf-friends

The strain of elven blood and his choice qualify him as an elf, right, but the source of the narrative of The Hobbit is supposedly Bilbo, who may have not known so much of the history at the time, and had Elrond described by Gandalf, who chose such a description for the sake of simplicity or any other reason

cf numenoreans, who ceased to be elf-friends as soon as they forbade the elven tongue on their isle.

[Keneldil the Polka-dot]

in latter sense the process like to a kind of initiation, the title is applied by an elf, usually is expressed by the verb “to name” and written with capital E (I name you an Elf-friend), and, most interesting of all, title in such sense implies change of inner state of a initiatd person

I just wanted to comment on whether or not Gildor "did something" to Frodo by naming him Elf-Friend, something later recognized by Goldberry. I'd argue that Goldberry would have said the same thing even if Gildor and Frodo had never met. Gildor and Goldberry both were recognizing something that was already in Frodo. You list "inner, the state of his fea" as your second meaning of Elf-Friend. Frodo possessed the inner qualities of an Elf-Friend before having the title conferred upon him by Gildor. Gildor did not change Frodo, he just put a title to qualities Frodo already had.

mark it leaves allright, and it is processed too solemnly to be mere assurance of stray elves help, whom, in case it left no mark, should take aforesaid person's claim of being an elf-friend upon his word. And it's rather odd to imagine person wandering about claiming: look at me, I'm an elf friend. The thing is somehow always guessed out all by itself, as in Goldberry's case.

Following my earlier argument, the inherent characteristics of the person in question would identify them as an Elf-Friend to other elves, or other similarly perceptive beings like Goldberry. No mark or change required.

From Birdland:

Mmmmmmm...I have the feeling it confers a little more than that, Raven, since it is not granted often.

I’d say that the title wasn’t granted often because there weren’t many people who fit the description, so to speak. The rarity of such individuals alone would mark them, without the title changing the bearer in some way.

Child of the 7th Age: I like your idea of Tolkien being the overarching Elf-Friend. I had not thought of it in that way before, but now that you put it into words it makes perfect sense.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Keneldil,

Yes, Tolkien as Elf friend makes enormous sense to me. This is especially true because the Elf-friend is so often the person who transmits and tales to us. Bilbo and Gandalf stand out of course with their written volumes and even Aragorn who recites the tale of Beren and Luthien. And, of course all the older mariners who somehow found their way to Tol Eressea by ship or dream and were then privileged to take away tales.

There is a great fan fiction which includes the figure of such an Elf-friend on the Downs. Tales of Tol Eressea by Mithadan. Have a look.

I'm also bumping up another thread that's closely related to this--The Light in Frodo's Face--that talks about one of the common attributes of an Elf-friend. Thought you might like to read it.

sharon

[doug*platypus]

Heren, you're right, there is definitely a change in the prerequisite to being an Elf-friend throughout the ages. Your first post was very complete in detail, and you've provided some excellent quotes. In the First Age, anyone from the Three Houses was an Elf-friend - they were all (women included) allies, and shared in the trials and triumphs of the Elder Kindred. It was the time of the Elves, and they had not yet begun to fade. By the War of the Ring, we know that their numbers and their martial strength is greatly diminished. In those times I think that they would be pleasantly surprised to find a friend who would speak to them in their own language, the knowledge and use of which was greatly diminished.

‘Be careful, friends!’ cried Gildor laughing. ‘Speak no secrets! Here is a scholar in the Ancient Tongue. Bilbo was a good master. Hail, Elf-friend!’ he said, bowing to Frodo.

I think Gildor may have been speaking with a degree of humour here, and his quick naming of Frodo as Elf-friend may have been in part a playful tease. More than any other LOTR Elves, Gildor and his company are similar to the Elves we encounter at Rivendell in The Hobbit, laughing and poking fun at the Dwarves.

I name you Elf-friend; and may the stars shine upon the end of your road!

Here, Gildor names Frodo Elf-friend after the situation has been explained (though not fully) to him. I think this is more an expression of Gildor's allegiance to Frodo than the other way around. Gildor is in a more serious mood after hearing that Gandalf has not kept his appointment, and vows to Frodo to help in what little way he can. Although of course Frodo's errand greatly concerns Gildor, and Frodo is proving himself an Elf-friend by undertaking it, not simply by speaking Elvish.

What about the case of Gondor? Do you think that all the people of Gondor are Elf-friends, because they are such staunch opponents of Sauron (unlike Rohan who only interferes when necessary)? Or is it only the noble houses and the masters of lore who are Elf-friends, since they speak the language? OR, is Elf-friend simply a hereditary title, as such applying to anyone descended from the Elendili, regardless of political leaning or knowledge of language?

[HerenIstarion]

What about the case of Gondor? Do you think that all the people of Gondor are Elf-friends, because they are such staunch opponents of Sauron (unlike Rohan who only interferes when necessary)? Or is it only the noble houses and the masters of lore who are Elf-friends, since they speak the language? OR, is Elf-friend simply a hereditary title, as such applying to anyone descended from the Elendili, regardless of political leaning or knowledge of language?

I'd say people of the noble houses and masters of lore, since they are who speak elvish, but only with some definite conditions in mind. First of all, attitude would matter, and such people would still require formal 'naming'.

Let us consider Denethor, Boromir and Faramir, per instance - Denethor is definitely not 'elf-friend', since he confines his service to Gondor and Gondor only, and does not care very much of what happens to Elves (or anyone else) outside his boundaries:

[Denethor]
Yet the Lord of Gondor is not to be made the tool of other men’s purposes, however worthy. And to him there is no purpose higher in the world as it now stands than the good of Gondor

Boromir is neither, for he shows, even if slightly so, negative attitude towards Lady and her Golden Wood:

'Indeed deep in the wood they dwell,' said Aragorn, and sighed as if some memory stirred in him. `We must fend for ourselves tonight. We will go forward a short way, until the trees are all about us, and then we will turn aside from the path and seek a place to rest in.'
He stepped forward; but Boromir stood irresolute and did not follow. 'Is there no other way? ' he said.
`What other fairer way would you desire? ' said Aragorn.
`A plain road, though it led through a hedge of swords,' said Boromir. `By strange paths has this Company been led, and so far to evil fortune. Against my will we passed under the shades of Moria, to our loss. And now we must enter the Golden Wood, you say. But of that perilous land we have heard in Gondor, and it is said that few come out who once go in; and of that few none have escaped unscathed.

Faramir may be qualified (he is descendand of Three houses, he speaks Sindarin and is positively attuned towards Elves), but I feel he still requires an encounter and naming for that:

No indeed, Master Samwise,' said Faramir, `for I am not learned in Elven-lore. But there you touch upon another point in which we have changed, declining from Númenor to Middle-earth. For as you may know, if Mithrandir was your companion and you have spoken with Elrond, the Edain, the Fathers of the Númenoreans, fought beside the Elves in the first wars, and were rewarded by the gift of the kingdom in the midst of the Sea, within sight of Elvenhome. But in Middle-earth Men and Elves became estranged in the days of darkness, by the arts of the Enemy, and by the slow changes of time in which each kind walked further down their sundered roads. Men now fear and misdoubt the Elves, and yet know little of them. And we of Gondor grow like other Men, like the men of Rohan; for even they, who are the foes of the Dark Lord, shun the Elves and speak of the Golden Wood with dread.

Even if he himself is not the one to shun the Elves, most of Gondorians do. The chain of thought is as follows - people who shun Elves are not elf-friends. One of such people would not be considered otherwise unless proving himself. Such a proof may not be presented without personal encounter.

As for the tongue:

To his amazement, as he listened Frodo became aware that it was the Elven-tongue that they spoke, or one but little different; and he looked at them with wonder, for he knew then that they must be Dúnedain of the South, men of the line of the Lords of Westernesse.

The spoken Sindarin makes Frodo leap to coclusion that Mablung and Damrod are of noble house (besides being of Ithilien origin) It is to be assumed that not all of Gondorians do speak Sindarin (noble houses and lora masters, as indicated, do), and members of Faramir's Company must be chosen ones of Numenorean blood, for, allegedly, those are stronger of will and body and would serve better for 'commando' operations Faramir is engaged in.

[Voralphion]

I don't believe simply speaking the elven languages qualifies one as an elf friend. The people are only said to be descended from elf friends of old, but are not described as elf friends themselves. The people of Gondor had long ceased all contact with the elves, and therfore cannot be described as elf friends. To be an elf-friend, I think that one has had to have had dealings with the elves, and probably done a service to the elves, such as Aldarion, the greatest elf freind among men at that time, who did much in helping Gil Galad defend against the shadow in the east. Frodo is perhaps described by Gildor as an elf friend because he is the heir of Bilbo, a elf friend known in Rivendell.
In order to be considered an elf friend, I believe one would have to have had positive dealings with the elves, and probably helped them in some way.

[Kuruharan]

Not to display my rampant bias (as if I would ever do anything like that ) but it seems to me that being an elf-friend is something that is restricted to Men or Mannish creatures (read hobbits). At least I can't recall a time when, oh, just to pick an example, a dwarf was called an elf-friend.

On the providing service to the Elves front, going back to the First Age, the Dwarven kings of Belegost were always faithful allies of the elves and saved their bacon at the Battle of Unnumbered Tears. However, Azaghal was never bestowed the title of Elf-friend posthumously.

Although, I must admit that this post is based to an embarassing degree on pure unreasoning first reaction. I'm not sure, but there might be a reference that I'm forgetting.

[The Saucepan Man]

At least I can't recall a time when, oh, just to pick an example, a dwarf was called an elf-friend.

Gimli was called Elf-Friend, presumably for his part in healing the old enmity between the races and for the special affection which Galadriel held for him. After all, you don't get to go to Valinor without being pretty much in with the fair folk. As far as I can recall, though, he is the only example.

[Kuruharan]

Ha! I knew I had to be overlooking something obvious!

Is my face red?

[The Saucepan Man]

Is my face red?

just as long as it doesn't clash with your beard.

[Alaksoron]

Going back to your first post, HerenIstarion, I believe Eomer was not considered an Elf-friend because he did not really care for the Elves. He was a strong believer in the race of men even to the point of prejudice, and if you read with discernment you will find that this is a point whcih the books really stress. One thing many of you seem to be suggesting (albeit without realizing) is that we humans are expected to render service to the Elves as a superior race. This presents a real problem to me because I see Elves as more of the Guide and Protector of the weaker, fallen *little brother* race, mankind.

[Alaksoron]

Khuharan, I can't imagine why the species you selcted to favor was the Dwarves.
They are portrayed by the honorable professor Tolkien (and, incidentally, Mr. Jackson as well) as greedy, crude, self-centered, savage, selfish, barbaric, and almost as a rule always concerned with nothing other than personal gain. Also, the honorable professor Tolkien was not the only one to portray them so. If you read other mythological writings (i.e. Chronicles of Narnia) you will find that this is a rather common opinion. The Elves can hardly be blamed for their obvious comtempt for the Dwarves. Elves tend to be magical, mystic, wise, and laid back, concerned with the higher arts. They are the opposites of the Dwarves. However, perhaps it is only my *rampant bias* only vice versa, fiercely and fanatically in the of Elves and the honorable professor Tolkien.

[Legolas]

"They are portrayed by the honorable professor Tolkien..."

...you mean, by the elves and hobbits who wrote these histories? I suspect that the books would read similar of elves if dwarves had written them.

[Fingolfin II]

They are portrayed by the honorable professor Tolkien (and, incidentally, Mr. Jackson as well) as greedy, crude, self-centered, savage, selfish, barbaric, and almost as a rule always concerned with nothing other than personal gain.

Alaksoron, while I agree with you to an extent I don't think that is entirely true. Certainly, some dwarves are portrayed as greedy and selfish (i.e. Mim), but the majority are not. Dwarves do care for gold and weapons and other materials manufactured by hand but I can't remember an example where they are shown to be savage and barbaric.

Some dwarves, such as Gimli, overcame their natural lust for gold and gems and were anything but greedy and self-centered. For this reason (but mostly because of his love for Legolas and Galadriel), Gimli became an Elf-friend. Would you call the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost Elf-friends beacuse they were friends with Eöl? Also, a reason for the animosity between Elves and Dwarves is because of the way they were treated by Elves originally. Thingol and Caranthir in particular did not treat Dwarves with the greatest respect. As Legolas said, dwarves have been stereotyped in this way, even though a minority of them were actually so. Also, don't forget there were also lots of greedy, barbaric and selfish Elves- Maeglin, Celegorm, Caranthir and Eol come to my mind.

[Kuruharan]

Ha! I've managed to hijack another thread!

(Scratches another mark on the side of his CPU, adding to an already impressive collection.)

Just to provide a few textual references before moving back to the real topic at hand.

They are a tough, thrawn race for the most part, secretive, laborious, retentive of the memory of injuries (and benefits), lovers of stone, of gems, of things that take shape under the hands of the craftsmen rather than of things that live by their own life. But they are not evil by nature, and few ever served the Enemy of free will…
Appendix F

[the dwarves] intended to pay Bilbo really handsomely for his services…they would all have done their best to get him out of trouble, if he got into it, as they did in the case of the trolls at the beginning of their adventues before they had any particular reasons for being grateful to him…dwarves are not heroes, but calculating folk with a great idea of the value of money; some are tricky and treacherous and pretty bad lots; some are not, but are descent enough people like Thorin and Company, if you don’t expect too much.
The Hobbit

[Dwarves] are stone-hard, stubborn, fast in friendship and in enmity, and they suffer toil as hunger and hurt of body more hardily than all other speaking peoples…
Of Aulë and Yavanna

…the thoughts of Dwarven hearts are hard to fathom…they used their rings only for the getting of wealth…
Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

There was another passage out of the Appendices that I would have liked to use, but I could not find it. Suffice it to say that the picture of the Dwarves is one of a people who are not particularly interested in gaining dominion over others (unlike certain Elves I could name) and they were known as keepers of their word (unlike certain Elves I could name). Tolkien considered the desire for domination to be at least as bad as greed, and one particularly fiery Elf that I have in mind (who is often lauded as being a wonderfully marvelous Elf) was quite eaten up by both at the same time.

*Ahem* anyway…as promised, back to the topic at hand.

Would you call the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost Elf-friends beacuse they were friends with Eöl?

I think Eöl was a special case. He was not considered to be a “mainstream” Elf. As Elves go, he was really rather strange. I don’t think that friendship with him would qualify anybody for anything.

[Alaksoron]

Qoute:
"Suffice it to say that the picture of Dwarves is that of a people not particularly concerned with gaining dominion over others (unlike certain Elves I could name)"

I detest that! It is the responsibility of the Elves as the superior race on the planet to be the Guide and Protector of the *little brother* races (i.e. men and dwarves) even if that commision requires them to maintain some sort of control or even rule over the aforementioned. The Elves are the most superior, most developed race on Middle-Earth and don't anyone say differerent.
"An ancient and noble race, the High Elves have refined their martial skills and magical prowess over the centuries. As the primitive tribes of men fought amongst themselves the.... Elves navigated the oceans and mapped the heavens. They have watched empires wise and fall....."
-http://uk.games-workshop.com/warhammerworld/warhammer/highelves.html

[Kuruharan]

Why, may I ask, are you trying to prove a point about Middle-earth by quoting from Warhammer? While Tolkien’s concepts heavily influenced Warhammer, they are not the same thing.

When attempting to discuss Tolkien, it might be considered best if the participants confine themselves to materials that are actually germane to the subject.

It might also be a good idea, if you wished to continue this discussion, to start a new thread about it, rather than wrenching this poor thing more off course than it is already.

[HerenIstarion]

Ai, ai, Kuruharan, you should have opened up something named "concerning dwarf-friends' not getting those bearded shorties onto noble "big brother' related discussion

Well, Alaksoron, you really make it sound like "big brother is watching over you"
I never intended to sound like I thought anyone were obliged to serve elves. On the contrary, the fact of service provided when such is not requested may make elves feel grateful and so give out such a title as of an elf-friend. Indeed, it was the case of great wonder to elves of Beleriand, that short lived men gave up their really precious lives for elves, in a war, which, technically, had nothing to do with them. Really, why should Three Houses care for some jewels Morgoth and Noldor were quarreling over?

As for the purpose of Having both men and elves around rather than starting it all over again here at the spot, I better readdress you to the following thread

Enjoy.

Ah, and yes, welcome to the Barrow-Downs

[tar-ancalime]

I think Eöl was a special case. He was not considered to be a “mainstream” Elf. As Elves go, he was really rather strange. I don’t think that friendship with him would qualify anybody for anything.

Are you sure? I think you get entered into a raffle or something.

I wonder what the prize would be...

[Kuruharan]

Well, judging from the topic of the thread, I'd say being declared an elf-friend.

[Son of Númenor]

Or a free, indefinite stay at a homely little cabin in the woods.

[Alaksoron]

[QUOTE=HerenIstarion]
Well, Alaksoron, you really make it sound like "big brother is watching over you"
I never intended to sound like I thought anyone were obliged to serve elves.

And why, praytell, are we not obliged to serve the elves?

[Fingolfin II]

And why, praytell, are we not obliged to serve the elves?

While Elves are the greatest beings of ME (not including Maiar), they are the friends of Men, though they did teach them a lot. Felagund first found Men and 'taught them true knowledge' (hope I got that quote right; don't own a copy of the Sil.), and Beor served him as several Men served other Elves (i.e. Hurin and Huor "served" Turgon).

However, I don't think Men are obliged to serve the Elves because in the end, I suppose it is a matter of "free will", the gift Eru gave to Men to shape their own lives and change the course of the future themselves. An analogy is Men and horses- are horses obliged to serve us, since we are more intelligent than them?

[HerenIstarion]

Alaksoron

And why, praytell, are we not obliged to serve the elves?

Do I sense the touch of ridicule or is it genuine curiosity? I am inclined to judge it as an expression of curiosity, nevertheless, and answer your query to the extent I'm able to

Men are not supposed to serve elves on the basis that both have separate Eru-given functions of their own, their inclusion into the Ainulindale and following that, into being, being His unaided, detached contribution. Those functions are defined at their best in a conversation of Andreth, mortal woman of the F.A. with Finrod Felagund, which runs as follows:

Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth

Andreth:

This much only can I say: that among us some hold that our [mortals - H-I] errand here was to heal the Marring of Arda, and by making the hroa partake in the life of the fea to put it beyond any marring of Melkor or any other spirit of malice for ever

Finrod:

'And then suddenly I beheld as a vision Arda Remade; and there the Eldar completed but not ended could abide in the present for ever, and there walk, maybe, with the Children of Men, their deliverers, and sing to them such songs as, even in the Bliss beyond bliss, should make the green valleys ring and the everlasting mountain-tops to throb like harps.

or, to quote myself from elswhere:

H-I

The brevity of their [human] life span in later works is associated with the Fall (as a race), for "wise among men" hold that in the original design Men were meant for life indestructible - union of fëa (of Eru) and hröa (of the matter of Arda) so unbreakable that it would be able to lift, bring up the matter, i.e. thing temporal, to the eternal world of flame imperishable. (elves in this scheme are supposed to function as a kind of memory cells - to remember and remind others of the first world, when the Arda Remade is brought into being) But men are so weakened by their fall that death is given to them as a release

and

At that, Men and Elves are direct insertions of Eru, Eruhini, his children, the whole mode of being of which (i.e. union of eternal fëa with temporal hröa) seems to be symbolic, indication of future arrangement, when matter will cease to be temporal and be equally eternal, and seems to set the direction of they development. At that, they have distinct functions - elves of preservation and memory, men of working future order out

Such distinct functions never imply servitude as an obligation. That some men may enter into the service of some elves, is obvious - but it would be out of respect, love, affection, even political purposes (Ulfang the Black and his sons Ulfast, Ulwarth, and Uldor), but not some kind of inherent, innate obligation

And hence the title - Elf-Friend. If humans were obliged to serve elves, the term would have been different, for friendship presupposes free will of both (or all, if there are more than two involved) parties - one can not be someone else's friend by force.

[Mithalwen]

err to go a long way back.... I am fairly sure that frodo had met elves in the shire before meeting gildor's company... it was one of the reasons he was considered "odd"

[HerenIstarion]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

err to go a long way back.... I am fairly sure that frodo had met elves in the shire before meeting gildor's company... it was one of the reasons he was considered "odd"

Pretty good point. But the case is, by that time, even as modern titles have changed their meaning, so the 'elf-friend' did. Meeting elves is one thing, being named an Elf-Friend another, pretty much as in older times anyone huge and strong enough to become a leader of a warband could have been termed as 'duke' (that is, dux = leader), but look at modern dukes now. Or, in other words, meeting the Her Majesty, even if we have tea together any odd evening, does not make me a knight unless I'm knighted.

[Aredhel]

I've noted that there was only one reference to the reason for the light seen by certain people/elves that harkens beck to the fairy/faery stories of old in this thread:

The essay argues that one important characteristic of an Elf-friend is to act as a link between the world of faery and the world of man.

One really has to pay attention to legend and myth, old stories of Faery-folk who gave "the sight" to mortals who served faery-kind well. Also one must pay attention to those who have otherworldly gifts, and so shine from within with the wisdom of the totality of the world - things both seen and unseen.

You will remember Legolas' surprise at seeing Aragorn shine when confronted by the Rohirrim:

'He seemed to have grown in stature while Eomer shrunk; and in his living face they caught for a moment a vision of the power and majesty of the kings of stone. For a moment it seemed to the eyes of Legolas that a white flame flickered on the brows of Aragorn like a shining crown.'

This is quite like to the shine on the brow of Taliesin, who was named such due to the glow seen on his forehead: "Behold The Bright Brow!"

Shining from within, on the brow, or the sparkle in one's eye is all a sign of inner wisdom or sight. Gildor's recognition of Frodo's language skills, as well as Frodo's polite manner is no surprise. Frodo studied with Bilbo, and gained the knowledge of other-worldy things, as Talieson did, and Bran, and Merlin, and many other tales of people who accidentally or otherwise came to know and serve the Faery.
Is it so unlikely then, that Gildor saw the "shining brow" on Frodo?

Now let this serve as a warning, too; for those that went against the Faery were punished equally as hard. For devulging the wherabouts of Faery in Mortal marketplaces, more than one had his/her eyes popped out, leaving him/her blind!
Here we are going back to the time when eating Faery-food was not a good thing to do, lest one be trapped in their world. Some were freed to do the work of the Faery in the Mortal world. Those that did were said by mortals that "had the sight" to glow from within with a strange sort of Faery-fire.

Oh, I'm going on and on, and not making a terrible lot of sense. I can certainly find you some instances of this.

Here's a shortened version of The Legend of Taliesin:

A young boy named Gwion Back was left to watch over a cauldron prepared by the Goddess Ceridwen. The liquid brewing inside the cauldron was intended for her horribly ugly son, Afagddu (Utter Darkness.) The liquid would give anyone that drank of it all knowledge and wisdom.

While Ceridwen was away, the boy Gwion fell asleep. He awoke to find that the fire was burning too hotly, and three drops of the precious liquid splashed out of the cauldron onto Gwion's finger. Sucking his finger to alleviate the pain, he absorbed all of the wisdom that had been intended for Afagddu.

When Ceridwen found out, she was furious, and set off after Gwion. Armed with his new knowledge, he turned himself into various animals, only to be pursued by Ceridwen who would turn herself into the animal's natural predator. Finally after a long chase, Gwion turned himself into a grain of wheat in a huge mound of grain and chaff. Ceridwen turned herself into a hen and ate every last grain, including Gwion. Nine months later she gave birth to a beautiful boy. Unwilling to kill the child, she set him adrift in a leather bag on the open sea.

Eventually the bag washed up on the shore near a fisherman's hut, and was discovered by the son of the fisherman, a boy named Elffin. When he opened the bag and saw the bright forehead of the child inside, he proclaimed "Behold the radiant brow!," whereupon the child answered "Taliesin be he called!" (Taliesin means 'shining brow.') He then spewed forth an endless stream of poetry, prophesy and wisdom. Elffin took him back to the hut and he there grew up into a famous bard and shaman, later serving at the court of King Arthur himself.

Now this is Celtic and Welsh wisdom; not from England, yet it had much to do later with the Arthurian stories. Certainly Tolkien would have read this. I know that there is not ONE single instance of Tolkien saying that he studied Celtic lore, however, Welsh lore is so closely related to English lore that I hardly see that he could have ignored it.

Other forms of the Taliesin Legend, including the Welsh versions state that Talieson was really Merlin, and have wonderful translations about him:

Taliesin is best known for his relation to King Arthur, mostly through the poem the Spoils of Annwfn, which details his descent on a raid into the underworld, to capture the cauldron of Ceridwen, along with Arthur, Cei, and others.

The earliest full stories concerning King Arthur and his exploits appear to be the little known Welsh tales of "Culhwch and Olwen" and the "Dream of Rhonabwy". Though dating from before the 11th century, these two stories became a late attachment to a collection of Welsh mythological tales taken from the 14th century White Book of Rhydderch and Red Book of Hergest. Together, they are known as the "Mabinogion": an introduction for aspiring poets. Though the stories have a mythological slant, a certain amount of bardic poetic license is to be expected. Their background, however, is clearly an unfamiliar Dark Age society that gives us some idea of what the real Arthur was probably like.

The poems of Taliesin are fragmentary, and known only through a few sources. It is believed however, that they formed the nexus of material for the Mabinogion.
The "Otherworld" was a domain of Celtic deities or supernatural beings such as the "Fairy People". The Otherworld was considered to be the Celtic version of heaven (or even hell to most Christian writers).

They were hidden from mortal eyes by strong Otherworld magic. They were situated in all sort of places. Some of these Otherworlds were located on the islands, the dunes, dun-hills, forests, rivers, and lakes. A grand castle or even humble cottage could be the Otherworld, which would, appeared at night for mortals, but would probably vanish in the morning.

Normal rule does not apply in the Otherworld. A year may seem to pass in the Otherworld, but in the real world centuries may have passed. Time seemed to have stand still. Nor does the people who live there, aged like mortals. They seemed to remain forever young.

The Welsh called their Otherworld - Annwfn (pronounced Annoovin) The actual cosmology is fairly complicated, but Arawn ruled a darker part of this this Otherworld kingdom. In the Spoils of Annwfn, Arthur his companions (including Cei) steal the magic cauldron of Ceridwen which brings life, from Annwfn.

Another popular name for a portion of the Welsh Otherworld, was the Caer Wydyr or Caer Wydr - the "Fortress of Glass". Caer Wydyr is similar to Tower of Glass in the Arthurian Legend, but associated with Glastonbury Tor, England. Glastonbury Tor was supposed to be the location of the "Isle of Avalon" or "Isle of Apples", the finally resting place of King Arthur.

I can only guess that Tolkien had read The Book of Taliesin, but I cannot for the life of me imagine that he ignored it. Since the Irish legends ended up being the Welsh legends, and finally progressed into the Brittish legends, one can expect he took some of the "Bright Brow" syndrome from these texts.

A note on delivery of the sight: It can be gotten by eating something of Faery origin, being touched on the forehead or eyes, or having an ointment rubbed on the eye.

Ah well, I've made a mess of this post. But perhaps it will encourage a few of us to look up The Book of Taliesin and other wonderful Celtic and Welsh texts.
Also check out the Tuatha De Danann, who followed the Goddess Dana. They were a rustic and artistic people who were said to have possed magickal skills that humans just didn’t have. When defeated by an ancient Celtic race called the Milesians, the Tuatha De Danann made their homes underground where they are rumored to live even to this day. Some of these groups have been revered as Gods and Goddesses in the Pagan tradition. These Fair Ones also became widely known as the Faeries of lore. The Tuatha were also called coincidentally: "The Shining Ones." *chuckle*

[HerenIstarion]

A load of interesting stuff you provide us with, Aredhel, thank you. (and welcome to the Barrow Downs )

But, I daresay, the main aim of the thread was to investigate the causes and effects inside Tolkien's works, not to find out his sources. The theory you state may well be one of the truths. But mentioned legends are not the only source for Tolkien. To name the few - 'Pearl', poem by anonymous author, which deals exactly with journeys to Faery, and originates from Tolkien's home Middle England (and is heavily leaned on in picturing Fellowship entering Lothlorien, I believe,), the whole set of stories, besides Taliesin, about people taken into 'elvish hills' and coming out some decades after, and, even Shakespear himself (I know, I know, the quote is 'I disliked cordially', but the thing is, Shakespear, IMO, was disliked for not developing but merely hinting at themes to take central part in Tolkien - Marching Ents, per instance). So it is a little bit more complex, one can not point down one's finger to any particular tradition and say - this is the source of it all, but rather has to reconcile with the fact that the whole of the several northern traditions are intervowen into the 'threads of story' with JRRT

But, that is one of the advantages of discussion - it may take unexptected turns.

So, cheers once again and enjoy your posting with us

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Aredhel, the possible source references you give are fascinating! They remind me more of one of Tolkien's minor works than of LotR, though - the title 'hero' of Smith of Wootton Major does eat a fairy star, but with the knowledge and permission of the King of Fairy, and is called "Starbrow", with the light visible in both worlds at times. His entrance into the world of Fairy enriches his life, though it is dangerous, even frightening at times, but the loss of the star and the journeying privileges that go with it are bitterly sad for him. The star passes on to the next human...

[mark12_30]

up.