The Nazgul. Men?

[Aragorn_the_Ranger]

Are all the Nazgul men, as I recall redaing somewhere about the names of the Ringwraiths before they passed into the shadow.
There was one or two women I believe but I am not certain.
Can someone help?

[Selmo]

The nine Nazgul were all Men, or had been before Sauron twisted them into something other than human.

The only quotes I can bring to mind about their origins are that "they were great Kings and sorcerers" before Sauron gave them Rings and that at least some of them were "Black Numenorians". Black doesn't refer to skin colour but to the fact that they had rebelled against their King, turned to Darkness and alied themselves to Sauron.

[Legolas]

The Witch King and Khamûl are the only Ringwraiths whose names are given, and they are male, so far as we know.

[Voralphion]

web pageThis is a page that contains information on the identity of the nazgul. And one of them was a woman

[ November 04, 2002: Message edited by: Voralphion ]

[Sharkû]

Unfortunately, that site uses information that was not provided by JRR Tolkien (but, if I recall correctly, by the RPG designers of IronCrown Enterprises) without clearly labelling it. So, read and enjoy it if you want, but be aware that it contains much material which does not have any significance for book discussions here.

[ November 04, 2002: Message edited by: Sharkû ]

[Losthuniel]

It also has many basic spelling errors. (Nazguls?)Not something I'm going to trust.

[mark12_30]

Singular Nazgul, plural Nazgli.

Or is it Plural Nazgul, singular Nazty?

[Legolas]

"Nazgul" is a singular and plural term.

To the original poster - you can ignore the link that lists nine Ringwraiths. It's mentioned above, but (in my opinion) necessary to stress - all that information is made-up except what I said originally: The Witch King and Khamûl are the only Ringwraiths whose names are given, and they are male, so far as we know.

[onewhitetree]

You guys just don't want to admit that Sauron was an equal-opportunity employer. What is it with people and images?

[Helkasir]

Nazgul.... does anyone know how you pronounce the "gul?" is it "Nazghoul" or "Nazgull"?

[Kalimac]

onewhitetree - so, it is revealed! The agelong conspiracy by the victors at the end of the Third Age, blackening Sauron's reputation and concealing his many virtues, among them a lack of sexism and equal opportunities for all creeds and colors to join his conquering armies! That Gandalf was a sly propagandist indeed. Do you think Rosie (not to mention Diamond and Estella) would have been so thrilled about their menfolk's deeds if they knew that their husbands had just set the cause of women's lib back to the First Age?

Of course, it's not like Sauron offered a great health plan ("burial provided if necessary" seems to have been about it) and somehow it's hard to see him adhering to FMLA in giving the Nazgul time off, so maybe he wasn't that great after all. Oh well.

BTW I do think they were all male. They're consistenly referred to with "he" (granted it's hard to tell, but presumably Aragorn and Gandalf know the truth, and they never bother to correct the hobbits, who always say "he"). Sauron maybe just wasn't into corrupting Queens - or considering what Tolkien's female nobility seem to be like (except for Tar-Ancalime, but she's the one exception) maybe none of the Queens were promising enough - read greedy and malicious - to be worth investing one of the nine rings in.

Helkasir - I always thought it was a long U, as it 'ghoul'. Mostly because long U's seem to be the rule everywhere else (as in Dunedain).

[ November 04, 2002: Message edited by: Kalimac ]

[Kuruharan]

[assumes scholarly air]

Sauron maybe just wasn't into corrupting Queens - or considering what Tolkien's female nobility seem to be like (except for Tar-Ancalime, but she's the one exception) maybe none of the Queens were promising enough - read greedy and malicious - to be worth investing one of the nine rings in.

I would surmise that it had more to do with the paucity of female rulers rather than a particular inclination toward corrupting one gender over another.

(Hmm, was that pompous enough? )

[Matthew2754]

I dont know. I guess i always assumed since it said they they were great kings, that they were men. Not to say that women can't be great. But i cant remember the last woman who was a great king.

[Aragost]

I think the "^" over the "U" means that it makes the oo sound like in the word mule.

Also what about Gothmog the ringwraith who led the Nazgul after the witch king was destroyed.

[Legolas]

Gothmog was not a Ringwraith, just a soldier.

[Westerly Wizard]

The Witch-King's name is not really mentioned either, as that is only a title. And Gothmog might not be conclusively not a Nazgul, but it definitely doesn't seem likely that he is.

[Kuruharan]

Gothmog was not a Ringwraith, just a soldier.

--------and------------

And Gothmog might not be conclusively not a Nazgul, but it definitely doesn't seem likely that he is.

Based upon what? (Ignoring that bit about Gothmog being just a soldier which he clearly was not.) I've never read anything that makes it seem more likely that he was a ordinary man, orc or whatever rather than a Nazgul. The matter seems entirely up in the air. Unless there is something that you would care to enlighten me with...

[Keneldil the Polka-dot]

So far I can't come up with anything certain about gender, although I have it in my head that they were all male too, but here is something about names:

Now at that time the Chieftain of the Ringwraiths dwelt in Minas Morgul with six companions, while the second to the Chief, Khamûl the Shadow of the East, abode in Dol Guldur as Sauron's lieutenant,

Gothmog Lord of Balrogs, high-captain of Angband, slayer of Fëanor, Fingon, and Ecthelion. (The same name was borne in the Third Age by the Lieutenant of Minas Morgul, The Return of the King V 6.) 125, 236, 238, 300

The first is a quote from Unfinished Tales, and the second is from the index of names in the Silmarillion. The Chief of the Ringwraiths lived in Minas Morgul, and Gothmog was the name of the Lieutenant of Minas Morgul. Possibly the same individual? The term "Lieutenant" was applied to leaders in general. Sauron himself was refered to as "lieutenant of Melkor".

[Kuruharan]

The Chief of the Ringwraiths lived in Minas Morgul, and Gothmog was the name of the Lieutenant of Minas Morgul. Possibly the same individual?

If you mean what it looks like you mean, that the Chief of the Ringwraiths and Gothmog were the same individual, then the answer is no. The Witch-king was killed before the name Gothmog was mentioned in ROTK.

And if you mean that Khamûl and Gothmog were the same, I find that unlikely since Khamûl was the lieutenant of Dol Guldur and Gothmog the lieutenant of Minas Morgal.

[Legolas]

We're given no reason to believe he is a Nazgul. Why should we assume he is? We shouldn't assume he is a member of such an exclusive group (only 9) until given evidence clearly supporting it. The other Nazgul that are given names/titles are presented clearly as such. Had Tolkien wanted him to be a Nazgul, why would he not say so?

"just a soldier" meant he was not a wraith. He may have been an orc, human, etc., but not a Nazgul.

[ November 05, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]

[Kuruharan]

We're given no reason to believe he is a Nazgul. Why should we assume he is?

I'm not saying that he was. I'm saying that there is equally little reason to believe that he was not. There is no way to make a real statement about it one way or the other.

The other Nazgul that are given names/titles are presented clearly as such.

Yes, sort of. But why name him at all if he was just an insignificant orc or human. I find it unlikely that an orc or human minion would be allowed to take over an assault when there were other Nazgul available. And why wouldn't the Lieutenant of Minas Morgal be a Nazgul?

I'm not trying to make a case that he was, I'm just trying to get you to acknowledge that there is about a 50/50 chance either way.

[Legolas]

He certainly wouldn't be insignificant, whether he was human or orc. He could be a man or orc of particularly great stature or might in battle. He must've displayed some competency, but that would be reguardless of his race.

And why wouldn't the Lieutenant of Minas Morgal be a Nazgul?

Why would he be? The Mouth of Sauron wasn't a Nazgul. Why not pick a Nazgul? Why would Sauron pick a weak human to do this job? No one knows, but he did. Could Gothmog be a former Maia? Could he be Tom Bombadil's bipolar personality coming out? The latter is a more absurd guess, but no evidence is given for/against either guess. However, Maiar, and Nazgul are classifications limited to a small number of people in Middle-earth. It doesn't seem equally likely that he would be one of only nine Nazgul that graced the presence of Arda when we aren't informed of it.

Is there any evidence against him being a Nazgul? Tolkien not mentioning it is enough for me. For many, it won't say that he was absolutely not a Nazgul, but it should put the odds against it. There were so many orcs and corrupted men in Sauron's army that one couldn't say the same about him being a man/orc. "50/50" is too optimistic.

[ November 06, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]

[Kuruharan]

The Mouth of Sauron wasn't a Nazgul. Why not pick a Nazgul? Why would Sauron pick a weak human to do this job?

*Tangent Time*

Well, he might desire to have somebody around who was capable of a greater degree of independent thought, which I expect would be a drawback for a Nazgul.

*Tangent Time Over*

The Lieutenant of Dol Guldur was a Nazgul so the idea of the Lieutenant of Minas Morgal being a Nazgul still holds water. It also seems likely that Sauron would want his most loyal followers (Nazgul) in all the top posts in his most sensitive frontier fortresses.

Could Gothmog be a former Maia? Could he be Tom Bombadil's bipolar personality coming out?

Oh help! Let's not open that can o' worms!

(Oh, and by the way, Goldberry also didn't have a fea!)

Tolkien not mentioning it is enough for me.

Suit yourself. However, the Lieutenant of Dol Guldur being a Nazgul, and the repeated statement that it was "no brigand or orc chieftain that commanded the assault" (before the Witch-king was killed) leads me to believe that Sauron would not have allowed the command to fall to such rabble in the event that the Witch-king became indisposed. We know there were other Nazgul at the battle, I think it quite likely that the command would fall to one of them.


(Too optimistic, there's a description that is not often thrown my way!)

[Legolas]

Gothmog's "assumption of command" also sounds exaggerated here. He did nothing more than "fling" the troops "into the fray."

He [Witch-King] now was destroyed; but Gothmog the lieutenant of Morgul had flung them into the fray; Easterlings with axes, and Variags of Khand. Southrons in scarlet, and out of Far Harad black men like half-trolls with white eyes and red tongues.

Also, I don't think Sauron ever imagined the Witch-King falling, especially to a chick and a hobbit. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[ November 06, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]

[Kuruharan]

Gothmog's "assumption of command" also sounds exaggerated here. He did nothing more than "fling" the troops "into the fray."

That had been pretty much the brilliant tactics of that vaunted soldier the Witch-king.

Also, I don't think Sauron ever imagined the Witch-King falling

He probably did not expect it. However, considering how obsessively he prepared for this war, I'd be surprised if the thought had not occurred to him and if he had failed to plan accordingly. He knew that there was this irritating prophesy of doom hanging over the head of his most feared minion.

[Helkahothion]

I can remember a confersation between Aragorn and Frodo that went a little like this:

Frodo:How are they?
Aragorn:They where one's great King's of men. Until Sauron the deceiver gave to them nine rings of power.

I don't know if it's usefull but I guess all bits help.
________
Mark Viii

[Lindril Arvilya]

Obviously we aren't the only ones to ponder this:

GOTHMOG The lieutenant of Minas Morgul and commander of Sauron's army during the Battle of the Pelennor Fields after the fall of the Lord of the Nazgûl. Gothmog may have been a Nazgûl.

From "A Guide to Middle Earth".

Sorry, guys, I know that's no help.

[Man-of-the-Wold]

I can't remember if the other eight ringwraiths at the Battle, or whether some might have been still elsewhere at Dol Guldor or not, but some were there, and I can't imagine any of them to be under the command of a man or orc. And if this Gothmog were a Maia or other notable such as the Mouth of Sauron, I think Tolkien would have made more of it.

Seeing as he didn't, I think after the death of the head ringwraith and Morgul Lord (sometimes named as Angmar) that his place was certainly filled by another ringwraith. They were the Eye's favorite, and certainly would not have been led by any other than their own kind.

If Khamul was the overall second amoung the nine, and was present, the only reason that he might not have been charged as the new leader was that unlike Gothmog he'd have been mostly at Dol Guldor and not familiar with the Morgul forces that dominated the army there.

[Legolas]

At the time of the War of the Ring, the wraiths had been out and about (i.e. looking for the Ring) meaning someone else would be need to be in command of the armies at the various strongholds in Mordor. Once again, Gothmog is mentioned in only one sentence in Lord of the Rings. All he did was "fling" the troops back into the fray. This doesn't even say that he was definitely second-in-command. He was simply of some leadership position that gave him influence over the soldiers.

[thorondil]

I think it is entirely plausible that Gothmog was one of the Nine. Especially since it is mentioned that those that were assembled for the rape of Gondor were "waiting for the call of their Captain. He now was destroyed; but Gothmog the lieutenant of Morgul had flung them into the fray...

It is also possible (though unlikely) that some of the Nine were (formerly) women, since they were "kings, sorcerors, and warriors of old." Women warriors are not unheard of...

[lindil]

I concur with Thorondil. Gothmog was almost certainly a Nazgul.

Why would Sauron sanction mere 'mortal' men to lead when you have nazgul to inspire such terror?

I suppose their could have been another Mouth of sauron Figure involved but that is far more hypothetical than a Nazgul being #2 at the Battle of Minas Tirith.

[Legolas]

We've already gone around and around that point.

[Snowdog]

The Nazgul site is not Tolkien canon.
Where is Gothmog mentioned again??

[Ainaserkewen]

Here's something to consider:
I read this thread pretty thoroughly and nobody's mentioned this. Do you think that any Nazgul would follow the orders of anyone but Sauron or another Nazgul. I can't imagine if the Mouth of Sauron told Khamul to get him a glass of water he would. If this Gothmog fellow gave orders (even indirectly) to the Nazgul, it's very possible he was next in line in order of rank among them.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 5:40 PM January 28, 2004: Message edited by: Ainaserkewen ]

[Osse]

I am neither decided whether he was or wasnt a Nazgul, i would tend to think that he wasn't . Some of you guys have a very different view of what tolkien refers to as a lieutenant. Tolkien uses the term lieutenant as a term for someone's right hand man... NOT as a leaderships title. Ie. Khamul was the lieutenant of Dol Guldur... ie he was in a slight underling possition but was in command of the fortress... (not a good example but hey!)

I get from this that Gothmog was not a Nazgul... the nazgul live in minas morgul (if you could call it living) and the witchking is the 'king' of that haunted city, yet when the ringwraiths are all on an errand, there needs to be someone to command the forces of mordor/minas morgul. This is the lieutenant; Gothmog... that is why i believe he is NOT a ringwraith, whether he is a particularly capable orc or a Man i don't know... i'd lean to the latter. The sentence referring to him goes something like : "yet it was no orc brigand commanding the host of mordor, Gothmog lieutenant of Minas Morgul lead the Dark Lord's armies..." or something close to that...


Osse