In the Shadow of the Star: Discussion Thread (Part 1)

[mark12_30]

I've saved a spot for Frodo & children's return to Bag End.

I wonder what Sam's kids thought of the trip, of Lorien, of Cami, and of helping to clean an abaondoned hobbit-hole for a stranger to stay in.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Shirelings, Old Star crew,

I need help. As many of you know (or have yet to learn!), weddings can be devilish things to plan. Cami and Maura are no exceptions. I wanted to share my ideas and see if anyone has further suggestions.

General background: Tolkien wrote very little about hobbit weddings. When he considered having Bilbo run off to marry, JRRT referred to hobbits' eloping and their preference for keeping wedding plans secret. All this was dropped, when his plot went off in another direction.

Cami's particular situation:

1. Except for Rose Goodchild, Cami has no living kin. Remember that her mother had been cut off by the wealthier Brockhouse family.

2. Cami knows she has very little time with Maura and will not want to waste any of it. Once she and Maura are reacquainted, they are not going to want to wait a whole month to say their vows!

3. Because Pio is pregnant, Cami will not want a public ceremony until after the birth of the twins. She does not wish to draw attention away from that happy event, and will be afraid of tiring out Pio with too many preparations, especially as she is considering a venue away from the Inn.

4. Cami has the additional complication that Maura follows First Age customs, and she follows Third Age customs. My guess would be that the hobbits of Gondolin might have been influenced by the Elves, and that, in emergency situations, a simple exchange of vows between the couple would have been viewed as sufficient, with some sort of reference to the blessings of Eru.

I suspect the Third Age practiced what we call 'civil marriage'. Hobbits outside the Shire would probably include some rural folk customs in their ceremony; those living under the Edwardian/Victorian patina of the Shire might tend toward a public registration ceremony where names would be set down in a great book. The couple might reaffirm their commitment to each other in front of friends or family, then sign the town register.

For all these reasons, I am thinking of doing this:

1. Cami and Maura will privately exchange vows a la the First Age and go off to live in the old deserted borough. Cami will officially tell no one except Bilbo and Pio and Bird. However, her hobbit friends are likely to know and understand and even talk privately about it. (In a positive sense, I hope!)

2. Cami and Maura will have a public civil ceremony, at a venue to be disclosed, after the birth of the twins, plus a one-week honeymoon in that same venue (time condensed, to be sure). Mayor Samwise will bring along the Hobbiton register and have the couple set their names in that book, since Cami grew up there.

Does this sound alright? Any ideas? Orual, would you be willing to write a post for Sam's part in this?

sharon

[mark12_30]

What's to help, Loremistress? Sounds like you've got it all under control to me. Just let Lindo know when to show up and propose a toast. Meanwhile he and the boys will be ranting about the countryside with the Gamgee children, Gamba, and his boys. Snowhobbits being the nosey sort, it'll be all Lindo can do to keep them away from Bywater Pool.

[Auriel Haevasawen]

This message doesn't add to your debate, I'm just making sure you're aware that I'm maintaining a watching brief on the occurances to know when I will be required. I could imagine you would be heartily cross if after writing this detailed and highly planned tale a small character like my own failed to walk on stage when required. I may not be posting (obviously - you don't need me) but am reading to keep abreast of things. (Boy is that a challenge.) This is intricate stuff you're producing. Praise to all!

[Child of the 7th Age]

Auriel,

Thanks for the kudos!

I have sent a note to you and Doug Platypus.

Please check your pms.

sharon

[piosenniel]

Do we need to do a Lorien returns to the Inn and has dinner scene & then be done with this day?

I'd like us, by tomorrow real time, to be one day along in the game, if you don't mind.

Since Mithadan had now arrived - will the rest of the Hobbits be coming soon - or how many days down the road game time is that happening?

[mark12_30]

Okay, y'all, label me clueless. It's generally true.

Here's the calendar:

Lótessë – 20 Lotessë (21 Thrimidge SR): Frodo, Bilbo, Lórien arrive; dinner party.

20 Lotessë: Mithadan detained by Shiriff, Bird arrives at party.

Around 21 Lotessë:

Mithadan bailed out.

Tol Fuin Contingent (Maura, Zara, Big Ban, Abar, Lindo, 3 Snowhobbits – Retya, Tem, Tocca)

Greenwood Contingent (Rose, Gamba, plus four brothers – Gamba, Roka, Asta, Ban, Little Maura)

Nárië

---------------Loendë (Midyear Day) – Birth of twins

Cermië

So there's a whole month in between Mith & hobbits' arrival, and the birth of the twins? Frodo and Bilbo are hanging around the Green Dragon all this time, and Lorien is also at loose ends? And (likewise) Lindo, Snowhobbits, and Gamba & boys are running around loose-- for a month?

(Eru help the Shire. Or at least, the Gamgees. Poor Rose. 'You taught my children to do WHAAAT?')

But okay. Now-- Cami, when do you and Maura tie the knot unofficially and disappear (only to be spotted by the vigilant Snowhobbits in the vicinity of Bywater Pool?)

And then after the birth of the twins, you do the public witness thing.

Bill Ferny's schedule is-- what, Game Time?

And then (Game Time) it gets all wrapped up, solved, happily-ever-aftered, and put in Elvenhome-- when?

--trying to get less lost

[Child of the 7th Age]

Helen,

I am going to bring Maura through first on his own. Hopefully, that post will be done late tonight. Cami will read Maura's letter, tell Lorien for him to come, and she will wake up with him sitting on the end of her bed. They will talk that day and agree to bring their close friends and family. Immediatly after that the rest of the arrivals will start.

The others can follow in any order:

The White Lady for Rose Goodchild (she is separate from Gamba because she's visiting Anee)

Helen for Lindo and crew, Gamba and crew--is that right?

Child for Zira, Ban, and Abar

Is that how you see it?

Regarding the month hole---Pio suggested we condense time. I thought everyone should get here before the condensed time. Also, Maura and Cami might be reluctant to have their families come through later, when the bandits are really beginning to pose a threat--especially because so many children are involved.


Maura and Cami will give their vows to each other very quickly--probably the next day after he arrives. No grass growing under Cami's toes! The public ceremony won't take place till after Pio gives birh and we deal with the other complications of the plot. It will be leading into the end. We will cover the honeymoon in one or two posts, then Cami and Maura will return to the Inn for the final sad scenes.

That is, the final sad scenes before the epilogue!

[ March 10, 2003: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[Orual]

Sharon--

I'd be more than happy to write up anything you need, and Sam would be more than happy to assist in whatever Cami needs for her wedding.

~*~Orual~*~

[Child of the 7th Age]

Maura and Cami thank you.

sharon

[Child of the 7th Age]

Helen,

About the end date of the game. The game started on February 18. Six weeks from then would be April Fool's Day, April 1.

Realistically, we may slide a bit over that. My best guess would be to aim for a finish of April 1-8.

Pio, do you think this is what we're most likely looking at?

sharon

[Child of the 7th Age]

We are pleased to have Gandalf the Grey joining us in the role of Merry.

Orual, Mark 12_30, Gandalf, Dragoneyes,

I will have Bilbo pay a visit to Bag-end and make a request to Sam to set up a dinner party. The purpose of the party will be two-fold: to renew old friendships, and to get a closer look at this strange fellow Maura Took, whom the West wind has just blown into the Inn. Although no formal announcement has been made, Merry and Pippin should probably start getting 'suspicious' about the young man and his attentions to Cami!

Orual, in the interests of time, and geting the invitations sent out quickly, I am going to use your character to set up the 'bachelor' dinner party at Bag-end! Sam will give his agreement to Bilbo's request.

Rosie and the children will be paying a visit to Amaranthas that evening to get them out of the way! Bilbo will be doing the cooking!!

sharon

[mark12_30]

Welcome MerryGandalf! And see you shortly at Bag End! Hey, this is great fun...

Sharon, I have a question-- This is all abuot dreams, right? And those wo are dreaming are Cami, Maura, Frodo, and Bilbo-- right? Are Mith and Pio and Bird also dreaming? Is this one big grand dream?

The reason for my asking is this: Bird brought up the good point that Frodo is galivanting across Hobbiton, and half the Shire's been to a party with him & Bilbo there, and now Bilbo will be out and about, partying, sending invitations and cooking up a storm.

This is getting uproariously non-canonical; and while it's terribly terribly fun and I definitely wouldn't miss any of it, will we have it all cleaned up by the end of the game so that it is Canon-Friendly, o at least, NotExpresslyCanonHostile?

Anyway, what I was picturing is this:

The only ones to clearly remember their dreams will be the main, central time travellers: Cami, Maura, Frodo, Bilbo (although he'll be moot by that time...) I think also Mith, Bird, and Pio would remember, being veteran time travellers. But I suspect that Lindo, Gamba, AllThoseBoys, Ban, Zira, and (I'm forgetting someone) will have a faded, foggy dream that tugs at them but they can't integrate unless somebody else who clearly remembers, reminds them and explains it for them, in effect integrating it for them (you may choose to have Maura do that for Lindo, and perhaps for Gamba.)

But Sam, Merry, Pippin, Amaranthus, the Innkeepers-- indeed, Sam's kids-- will they remember? Or will this be a foggy dream? or even just one of those pleasantly refreshing but completely forgotten dreams like Frodo had in Ithilien?

Obviously, my canon-friendly-hopeful-vote is, either a foggy dream, or complete forgetfulness.

Opinions? Rebuttals? Rotten tomatoes?

[mark12_30]

"Little Andreth"--

Geez, you kill me sometimes. That was beautiful.


ps. Maura, welcome back; it's good to see you.

[ March 11, 2003: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]

[mark12_30]

Orual, I've gotten Frodo to the gate of Bag End; he's being hesitant again. Feel free to drag him in. If you'd like you can send a post to me and I can paste it in just after mine.

Ive got another spot saved a bit further on for chatting, exploring Bag End, and hopefully breaking the ice a little.

[ March 11, 2003: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]

[Child of the 7th Age]

For my next RPG, I will be doing a Harlequin adaptation of Tolkien! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Well, Cami is dragging Maura through the Inn looking for her friends. Should you desire, please introduce yourself to Maura. Feel free to use either or both of our characters as needed in your post.

Should Cami encounter no other friends, she will introduce Maura to Bilbo later tonight.

sharon

[mark12_30]

Frodo has joined Cami and Maura in the hunt for Bilbo. He can't have gone far. Can he? Or is he at Bag End already?

[Child of the 7th Age]

No, he hasn't left the Inn. I will do the Bag-end post after the encounter with Bilbo.

sharon

[Gandalf_theGrey]

Dear sharon and Helen,

It's a pleasure and a privilege to join you ... thank you for making a place for me. * bows *

Looking forward to the party at Bag End
which I'll now Merrily attend, [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Meriadoc Brandybuck // aka, Gandalf the Grey

[mark12_30]

Orual: You there? I've put in another post where Sama nd Elanor catch Frodo daydreaming; feel free to send me stuff to insert! (please)

Can I borrow Bag End for a moment? (Puts on best Bilbo voice)

My dear Gandalf! Come in, come in; welcome, welcome! (bows at door) Tea? Or perhaps something a little stronger? How about a bottle of Old Wineyards? very good year... It was laid down by my father; what say we open one?

[Orual]

Helen--

Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. I'm so sorry that I haven't gotten anything to you! I was rudely kicked off of the Internet last night, and I've been catching up on neglected RPG's--but enough excuses, I will send one to you posthaste.

~*~Orual~*~

[Rose Cotton]

I will be away for awhile so you may use Rosie if you need her.

[mark12_30]

...my canon-friendly-hopeful-vote is, either a foggy dream, or complete forgetfulness. Opinions? Rebuttals? Rotten tomatoes?

Nudge, nudge...?

[Child of the 7th Age]

I've got a very Briny Notion
To drink myself to sleep.
Bring me my bowl, my magic potion!
Tonight I'm diving deep.
down! down! down!
Down where the dream-fish go
--Arry Lowdham

Helen---

We're down there with the dream fish, and I don't think things are ever too clear!

I've purposely avoided trying to respond to your question because I believe this is an enormously complicated topic. To give you a half-way decent reply I'd need to sit down and do research in the Lost Road and the Notion Clby Papers, and then write a scholarly treatise!

The only person who has written on this in any meaningful way (that I know about) is Verlyn Flieger, and I am heavily influenced by his thoughts. If you'd like, take a look at Tolkien's Legendarium (ed. by Flieger) and A Question of Time that he wrote.

First of all, on a purely practical basis, I don't think this is an issue we need to deal with directly in the RPG. When the story ends, it ends. What characters do or don't remember is open to conjecture. The only time this will actually come up is in the context of writing later RPGs or fanfiction. Give the history of the Star and the Star writers, it is possible, nay likely, that related stories will be written. How much our characters remember will vary from poster to poster depending on how they feel about it. I hesitate to specify that ahead of time.

I could tell you my personal thoughts but these only apply to me. Mith or Pio or Orual or Nurumaiel may see things totally differently, and have an equally valid view.

My views are really only important in the context of my own particular characters since those are the ones I write for and describe. For example, I may suspect that Mithadan (the character) remembers but if his creator decides he should forget in a later RPG, then so be it!!

Now, let's step back for a minute from the practical answer and get into a jucier question:

...my canon-friendly-hopeful-vote is, either a foggy dream, or complete forgetfulness.

I respectfully do not agree. Based on what I've read in the Notion Club Papers, I would argue that the exact opposite is true. For Tolkien, the essence of a true or deep dream is memory, especially since one of the key purposes of dream is the rebirth and dissemination of myth. For that to happen you must have memory.

At the beginning of the Notion Club, the characters discuss the meaning of dream. This is what Ramer has to say about memory and dream:

I was awake in bed, and I fell wide asleep: as suddenly and violently as the waker in my illustration. I dived slap through several levels and a whirl of shapes and scenes into a connected and remembered sequence. I could remember all the dreams I ever had, of that sequence. At least, I remember that I could remember them while I was still "there", better than I can "here" remember a long sequence of events in waking life. And the memory did not vanish when I woke up, and it hasn't vanished. It has dimmed down to normal, to about the same degree as memory of waking life: it's edited: blanks indicating lack of interest, some transitions cut, and so on. But my dream memories are no longer fragments, no longer like pictures, about the size of my circle of vision with fixed eyes, surounded with dark, as they used to be, nearly always. They are wide and long and deep. I have visited many other sequences since then, and I can now remember a great number of serious, free, dreams, my deep dreams....

In a related vein, look at Tolkien's "dream" narators. Memories are 'inherited' through the same family by the Elf-friend narrators: Elendil/Veronwe (Numenor); Aelfwine/Treowine (Anglo-Saxon); Lowdham/Jeremy (modern). And these inherited memories are often conveyed through the vehicle of dream.

Fleger has also argued that places like Bombadil's house and Lothlorien stand half-way between reality and dream in LotR. I certainly get that sense of dream when the fellowship comes to Lothlorien.

There is really no canon here, in that none of this was published by JRRT, one way or the other. But his unpublished writings strongly suggest that he saw memory as an important component of dream.

sharon

[Child of the 7th Age]

Helen,

I received your fine post and will insert into the story at the appropriate point. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

I have just one question. What about this teenage hobbit who's wearing his hair in an Elvish braid? Grr! The last time I saw Gamba in Greenwood, he wasn't doing that. Is this the bad influence of friends? Please advise

You can be sure Cami will have something to say about this!

sharon

[mark12_30]

No, no, the elvish braids belonged to Retya. Retya was the wide-eyed innocent decoy. Gamba was the tornado who ran up behind Retya and leapfrogged him.

Now I'm going to go back and read your Master's Thesis on dreams. Wish me luck!

(edit)

Hmmmm.

All right-- for now. But I'm going to go back to HoME 5 and scan that Elendil story again.... I'm SURE that when he woke up in Numenor, he didn't know he was really from England.

I know Bombadil's house and Lothlorien are dreamy places, but this is different, surely? This isn't visions, this isn't far-seeing, this isn't remembering; this is dream-transportation. And the example I know of that fits that is the Elendil/ Herendil one. Admittedly I'm not as well-read as you are! But this whole thing is beginning to make my head spin.

I don't yet have that Flieger book (I have the other one, Splintered Light, which I got partway into and then got distracted...) And I can't get the Flieger book you mention for another two weeks minimum (having overcollected already, and am now "paying the price"...)

Ah, well, I have a feeling this debate will continue, my dreamy friend. Cheers, a toast, and sweet dreams to you...

[ March 12, 2003: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]

[Child of the 7th Age]

Ah, you have relieved my mind about Gamba's hairstyle! I misunderstood.

Regarding dreams....Lost Road and Notion Club Papers do have a different flavor about them. Notion Club Papers came later. I honestly have never sat down and done anything more than skim through them.

sharon

[mark12_30]

Okay (that was fast, said Child) here's what's bugging me. It all goes back to the question of-- who's dreaming? And who's awake?

When the guy who dreams that he is Elendil, wakes up as Elendil in Numenor, then in England he's asleep. His neighbors (in Numenor) would, however, be awake and "real" people walking around in the daylight, EXCEPTING Elendil's son Herendil, who, while talking to his father in Numenor, is also lying asleep in England. (What were there names? Harry and John, for the sake of argument.) So-- Elendil /Herendil awake in Numenor, but Harry and John (sic) lying aleep and dreaming in England.

So.

I'm assuming that Frodo and Bilbo are lying asleep in the West, Cami, Rose, Gamba & boys are lying asleep in the Third Age, Maura, Ban, Zira, Abar, Lindo, & Snowhobbits are lying asleep on Tol Fuin. We all have a happy three-month-long dream-reunion, weddings, births, adventures. So far so good.

Now-- who's awake?

Pio's twins do actually get born, so she's awake. Right? Or is she? Mith travelled all the way there and is there when the twins are born so he's awake. Right? Bird flew all the way there, so she's awake. I guess.

Is The Shire awake? Sam, Merry, Pippin?

You see where I'm going? Or, how lost I am?

Okay. So according to your argument, then only the ones that were dreaming-- the travellers less Mith, Pio, Bird-- are potentially confused and the rest are not? And if the dreamers all arrive in the Shire with memories intact-- more or less-- then how much do Zira, Ban, Lindo & boys remember-- and Gamba and Rose-- when they wake up?

[ March 12, 2003: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]

[Child of the 7th Age]

In my opinion, and this is only opinion, those who must traverse only space to come are in real time: those from the West and early Fourth Age. Those who must traverse time are in dream: Cami and crew, Maura and crew.

I do not think any character has to leave with "confused" memories (unless their creator wants them to!). I don't doubt that Tolkien may have put forward more than one view about dream in his writings, but I do know that, in the quote above, Ramer clearly said he remembered everything more clearly in dream than in "real life". Even Jeremy and Lowdham remember what they've seen, since JRRT says they wake and compare notes. So if these folk have memories, why can't our own characters, if we prefer that?

In real life, dream is notoriously tricky---some you remember clearly, some not at all, and some just a little. There's no one standard that fits all dreams and people. And I tend to think that this would be true here as well.

Regarding people in a dream recalling the details of their past life, see this response by Ramer:

And can you remember your real life while in a dream?.....'As to the last question,... the answer is: in a sense, yes. As clearly as you can remember it while writing a story, or deeply engrossed in a book....

So there is a basis for saying that Cami remembers Maura and Maura remembers Cami. Remember too that we have a Vala dream-master with us (even a drunk one!) which Tolkien's own dream travellers did not have.

Helen, I think we're actually getting down to a more basic question. What is important in an RPG? To me, canon itself is an artificial construct. As a writer, I can become frustrated when dealing with that. For example, I have read one or two stores that were absolutely faithful to Tolkien from start to finish in term of details, but the writers totally missed the boat in not understanding Tolkien's values, spirit, etc.

Just one example: an RPG saturated with canon-true details, but which is filled with battle scene after battle scene, with nothing else in between, absolutely no hint of character development. To me that is a lot further from Tolkien than Bird's variants on shapechangers, Pio's example of Elven/hobbit unions (the Took fairy unions?), or allusions to dream travel, which I've postulated here.

Again, I don't think the plot of this story requires us to delineate everything that a character will or won't remember after he/she returns to another age. And I hesitate to lay those guidelines down for other people since it's not central to the plot

Speaking personally only, I would say Cami would have full memories; Rose and Gamba partial, misty memories; the younger ones only a distant glimmering. Perhaps that has as much to do with awareness and age as any interpretations based on canon. (Maura, I'll leave for another time.) My guess is that everyone in real time would have normal memories.

I imagine you are thinking of the epilogue we've discussed. This could be done one of two ways---keeping it vague and uncertain as to what was actually remembered, or go ahead and do what you feel most comfortable with, since none of those characters have other creators (except for Cami and Maura which I do have feelings about). I'd almost opt for the vague and uncertain tack--there are many places in the writings which are maddeningly and mysteriously vague on key points! You can't get more like Tolkien than that. But whichever works for you is fine.

Does anyone else have any ideas or responses to this?

Sorry this post is so vague, but I can't think of a topic more inherently elusive than dream!

sharon

[ March 12, 2003: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[mark12_30]

OK. "Uncle."

[img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Child of the 7th Age]

LOL. OK, I edited the above post to address the epilogue. Take a look. That's where we get down to a streightforward question that will need to be answered to do these posts. How do you prefer to handle it?

sharon

[ March 12, 2003: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[piosenniel]

Piosenniel will have intact, real memories of this period. These memories will be passed on to her children, who have their own infant memories of this time. And these nebulous memories of theirs will be solidified and confirmed by the stories passed down to them by their mother.

Amaranthas will also have real memories of this time, though as she grows older Hobbits will say she confuses memories and says strange, out of time things.

Prim, Hob, Ruby and Buttercup’s memories of happenings will center mostly around what is most central to them at this part of their lives – the Elf’s arrival and stay at the Inn, the birth of her twins, the kidnappings, and the death.

That is how the writer for these characters sees the questions of memory for them.

[Birdland]

Ahem...since I was the one who may have started this debate, I guess I should throw in my two cents, though I have not read the tales that Cami and Mark are referring to.

I threw in Birdie's "doubts" because it is very in character for Bird to do this. I also felt that the story needed a little conflict, and some sort of lead up to the future kidnapping of the children.

I also feel that "Bird" character (and myself) make a very good point about the appearance of Frodo, Bilbo, and particularly Men, in the Shire. While the main characters may be living a dream, the people around them aren't. There is little or not reaction to the events going on, and the story seems to lack because of it.

I also thought that if these issues were brought up, it might open the story up a little so that other players might have something to build on and play with if only as a sub-plot. There just doesn't seem to be much for other characters to react to, except to stand and watch as Cami, Pio and the other main characters interact.

Anyway, that's my take on the matter.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Bird,

That is a good point, the need to broaden the storyline beyond the particular angst that Pio has about the birth of her children and Cami has about her situation with Maura (and Frodo has about his relationship with Sam and Bilbo) . Bird, I saw your concerns as tying directly into the bandit sub-plot, and they seemed very much in keeping with your personality and character.

I thought Helen's concerns were different (but I could certainly be mistaken in that perception.) More of a desire to understand specifics about the dream mechanism itself, and the implications of that for the future, after folk returned to their homes.

She and I were planning a brief epilogue at the end of the game where we do follow certain characters after they've gone back to different ages. There, the problem of remembering versus not-remembering would be real and immediate.

Right now, we are in a holding pattern--waiting for two things to happen. One is the arrival of the other characters by dream, and the other is the beginning of the trouble in the Shire by the bandits.

Once the bandits start doing their thing, there will be a lot more for both Mithadan and Bird to react to. They will both be on the hot seat, and Bird's dire predictions will seem to be coming true.

Auriel, Doug Platypus, please check your pms.

The arrival of the other guests should also provide further conflict. From things Helen has sent me, it sounds as if we have a crew of juvenile delinquents coming in to join us!

Hope this helps.

sharon

[ March 12, 2003: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[mark12_30]

Bird-- wait'll the Snowhobbits show up. Frodo has no clue as to who you are; Retya, Tem and Tocca will want everything from Dolphin-rides to Raven-hunts (like going hawking, you understand. Bird! See the squirrel? Sic 'em!) You'll be sick of boys.

Oh, and Little Maura will ask about the pretty dragon. Gamba probably won't.

Interestng you should bring up Bilbo and Frodo, and the Shire's lack of reaction to them so far; I keep running across Sam's law of inheritance when somebody goes over the Sea-- was it in Tom Bombadil? I forget-- and I keep wondering, now that Frodo is back, will somebody try to talk Sam out of Bag End?

Dragoneyes-- Osanwe is basically mind-reading, with one person opening their mind, and the other reading or putting thoughts into the open mind. Pippin would be on the recieving end. Frodo would be sending. There's an essay about it online if you'd like to read it. Go to books, and search on Osanwe... but if you don't have time, here's a brief intro:

Of the Elves and Osanwe (from Many Partings):

"Often long after the hobbits were wrapped in sleep they would sit together under the stars, recalling the ages that were gone and all their joys and labors in the world, or holding council, concerning the days to come. If any wanderer had chanced to pass, little would he have seen or heard, and it would have seemed to him only that he saw grey figures, carved in stone, memorials of forgotten things now lost in unpeopled lands. For they did not move or speak with mouth, looking from mind to mind; and only their shining eyes stirred and kindled as their thoughts went to and fro."

Of Galadriel and Osanwe (From The Mirror Of Galadriel):

"And with that word she held them with her eyes, and in silence looked searchingly at each of them in turn. None save Legolas and Aragorn could long endure her glance. Sam quickly blushed and hung his head."

The second part is why Pipin, and Sam, are nervous about Osanwe-- Galadriel put them through a bit of a test that day. But the first quiote is why Frodo likes it; you can tell stories, share memories, and just talk.

When you see Maura and Cami reading each others thoughts (it shows up in italics then), they are doing osanwe. Also Piosenniel does it a lot-- that's how she communicates with anybody who is far away.

Does that help?

[Gandalf_theGrey]

sharon:

Regarding the plotline you describe as follows:

Right now, we are in a holding pattern--waiting for two things to happen. ... the other is the beginning of the trouble in the Shire by the bandits.

Once the bandits start doing their thing, there will be a lot more for both Mithadan and Bird to react to.

... It strikes me that the appearance of bandits is something eminently logical for Merry to be involved in dealing with and reacting to as well. Please send me a PM with the pertinent background information so that I can better incorporate the Merry character into the RPG? I'll be looking forward to any information you can share that will enable me to participate with the same amount of depth as the rest of you all, and would greatly appreciate the chance to join in on the advance collaboration and pre-planning that the Lonely Star writers are famous for. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Also, am I correct in assuming that the appearance of bandits is associated with the Bill Ferny subplot?

Helen:

You're so very gracious! Thank you again for showing yourself a friend to me. * bows low * [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

At your Service,

Meriadoc / Gandalf

[ March 12, 2003: Message edited by: Gandalf_theGrey ]

[Child of the 7th Age]

Dragoneyes, Gandalf,

Please see your pms.

sharon

[piosenniel]

A question about the epilogue - were you (Sharon and Helen) going to write this, or will the characters be allowed to write their own?

And if you were going to write it, were you planning on conferring with the writers of the characters?

[mark12_30]

Pio-- on a more immediate level, if Piosenniel will be away from the Inn during Gamba's Green Dragon Jailbreak, please feel free to substitute anybody you choose for the investigation.

About the Epilog-- it is rather narrowly focused about what happens to the time-warping hobbit-dreamers after they wake up; it's pretty insulated in that way from the rest of the Star crew. Sort of like Gamba's epilog was, I guess.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Pio,

Please excuse my choice of words which may have thrown you off. The epilogue focuses only on Cami and Maura. It will involve a few posts and is the same material we discussed by pm earlier.

Hope this clarifies things.

sharon

[ March 13, 2003: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]