Bad Guy Life spans - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Thranduil · 08-18-2002, 11:22 AM

Everyone talks about the life spans of the Dwarves, Men (like if their blood is mixed or not), and the immortality of elves, but what about the bad guys?

How long do goblins and orcs live? When I say goblins, I mean like the ones you'd find in the Misty Mountains and Moria, and orcs would be the ones you find in Mordor. How long do those guys kick around? And if the original orcs were elves, would that mean they're immortal?

Also, if you know about others, like Trolls or even the Nazgul (which I think are immortal), please post that as well.

Thanks

***Sharkû*** · 08-18-2002, 01:30 PM

Arguably the best thread on the matter.

Nazgûl cannot be immortal. Their artificially prolonged physical existance ceased with the One Ring.

Morgoth Bauglir · 08-18-2002, 06:18 PM

yes, orcs multiply and have life according to what the elves have, because they are well...mutated elves [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Davin · 08-18-2002, 07:00 PM

So Orc's are immortal? And I know that Elves can die from a broken heart, etc...You know, emotional troubles, and Orc's seem to have hard lives. So wouldn't they die easily, they were very ugly and they probably knew it. I know this sounds stupid, but I was thinking about it.

Arwen Imladris · 08-18-2002, 07:42 PM

Ya, I agree with you Davin, even though they are mutilated elves I doubt that any of them ever lived to be very old. They were often being sent out to war, nobody liked them except for Saruman and Sauron, they had a lot of enimies, plus they would kill each other.

Shadow of Udûn · 08-18-2002, 07:58 PM

Wouldn't the orcs have lost their immortality when they were corrupted?
Old elves, like Elrond, have great magical power, but orcs don't have this power - they would have lost it when they become orcs. So I think they would have lost their immortality as well. As for how long they live, it wouldn't have been long, though perhaps longer than a human. How old was the Great Goblin in the Hobbit?

Morgoth Bauglir · 08-18-2002, 09:16 PM

it says in the silmarillion.......they ARE NOT elves....just a mockery OF elves.

when melkor made orcs, it was one of the most hateful things he did towards Eru.

steve · 08-18-2002, 10:08 PM

I personially would loke to know of what race and the lifespan of Sauron. He was alive for so long before he had gotten the ring, and even tho the ring extends your lifespan, if he was a human he would had to be excedingly old even during The Battle of 5 Armies

Legolas · 08-18-2002, 11:34 PM

Sauron is an Ainu. The Ainur are a race of primordial spirits created by Eru's thought (Eru = creator of existence). They existed before/outside of Arda (Arda = the world)with Eru. Some were chosen to be placed in Arda and to govern it. The 14 ruling Ainur are the Valar ('the powers'). The rest are Maiar, servants of the Valar.

Sauron used to be a Maia. Melkor (a former Vala) was the first Dark Lord and corrupted Sauron, using him as his right-hand man. Melkor was tossed into the void. With his departure, Sauron became the Dark Lord.

Those of the Ainur race are immortal, thus Sauron is.

O'Boile · 08-19-2002, 09:00 AM

Yes, as it was posted, Sauron was a Maia. Gandalf and the other wizards were also of the same race, although they had different characteristics imposed upon them when they came to middle earth. You can find out more about him in the Silmarilion.

***Mister Underhill*** · 08-19-2002, 09:19 AM

Morgoth Bauglir, if you check the link that Sharku provided in the second post in this thread, you will see that the origins and nature of the Orcs are by no means as cut-and-dried as you seem to think.

Helpful vocabulary notes for exploring that thread:

hröa (pl. hröar): physical body
fëa (pl. fëar, often spelt in the thread somewhat confusingly as simply 'fear'): 'rational spirit', or 'soul' if you prefer

Much of the info in the topic derives from HoME Volume X, Morgoth's Ring.

[ August 19, 2002: Message edited by: Mister Underhill ]

Thranduil · 08-19-2002, 10:50 AM

Thank you all. I do believe that orcs would've lost their immortality when they stopped being elves (also, orcs do multiply but not in the same way elves do, if you know what I mean [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ).

I imagine goblins probably live longer than humans, but not as long as dwarves. OR maybe they do; if you read the hobbit, they kind of talk about the Dwarf/Goblin War and how the Goblin King (at present) was the son of the king that was killed during the war.

08-18-2002, 11:22 AM	#1
Thranduil Animated Skeleton Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 30	Bad Guy Life spans Everyone talks about the life spans of the Dwarves, Men (like if their blood is mixed or not), and the immortality of elves, but what about the bad guys? How long do goblins and orcs live? When I say goblins, I mean like the ones you'd find in the Misty Mountains and Moria, and orcs would be the ones you find in Mordor. How long do those guys kick around? And if the original orcs were elves, would that mean they're immortal? Also, if you know about others, like Trolls or even the Nazgul (which I think are immortal), please post that as well. Thanks

08-18-2002, 07:00 PM	#4
Davin Wight Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 166	So Orc's are immortal? And I know that Elves can die from a broken heart, etc...You know, emotional troubles, and Orc's seem to have hard lives. So wouldn't they die easily, they were very ugly and they probably knew it. I know this sounds stupid, but I was thinking about it. __________________ So do all who live to see such times, but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. »»The Telmena««

08-18-2002, 07:42 PM	#5
Arwen Imladris Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: In a box with a fox Posts: 1,347	Ya, I agree with you Davin, even though they are mutilated elves I doubt that any of them ever lived to be very old. They were often being sent out to war, nobody liked them except for Saruman and Sauron, they had a lot of enimies, plus they would kill each other. __________________ "Wake up! Wake up! Wake up, sleepies, we must go, yes, we must go at once."

08-18-2002, 07:58 PM	#6
Shadow of Udûn Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Sydney Posts: 32	Wouldn't the orcs have lost their immortality when they were corrupted? Old elves, like Elrond, have great magical power, but orcs don't have this power - they would have lost it when they become orcs. So I think they would have lost their immortality as well. As for how long they live, it wouldn't have been long, though perhaps longer than a human. How old was the Great Goblin in the Hobbit? __________________ What it was could not be seen: it was like a great shadow...

08-18-2002, 10:08 PM	#8
steve Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Edoras... er, Philadelphia Posts: 191	I personially would loke to know of what race and the lifespan of Sauron. He was alive for so long before he had gotten the ring, and even tho the ring extends your lifespan, if he was a human he would had to be excedingly old even during The Battle of 5 Armies __________________ MAGIC SHOP! Spells of Mass Destruction 20% off! Today Only!

08-18-2002, 01:30 PM	#2
*Sharkû* Hungry Ghoul Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 1,719	Arguably the best thread on the matter. Nazgûl cannot be immortal. Their artificially prolonged physical existance ceased with the One Ring.

08-18-2002, 06:18 PM	#3
Morgoth Bauglir Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 252	yes, orcs multiply and have life according to what the elves have, because they are well...mutated elves [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

08-18-2002, 09:16 PM	#7
Morgoth Bauglir Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 252	it says in the silmarillion.......they ARE NOT elves....just a mockery OF elves. when melkor made orcs, it was one of the most hateful things he did towards Eru.

08-18-2002, 11:34 PM	#9
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	Sauron is an Ainu. The Ainur are a race of primordial spirits created by Eru's thought (Eru = creator of existence). They existed before/outside of Arda (Arda = the world)with Eru. Some were chosen to be placed in Arda and to govern it. The 14 ruling Ainur are the Valar ('the powers'). The rest are Maiar, servants of the Valar. Sauron used to be a Maia. Melkor (a former Vala) was the first Dark Lord and corrupted Sauron, using him as his right-hand man. Melkor was tossed into the void. With his departure, Sauron became the Dark Lord. Those of the Ainur race are immortal, thus Sauron is. __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

08-19-2002, 09:00 AM	#10
O'Boile Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 117	Yes, as it was posted, Sauron was a Maia. Gandalf and the other wizards were also of the same race, although they had different characteristics imposed upon them when they came to middle earth. You can find out more about him in the Silmarilion.

08-19-2002, 09:19 AM	#11
*Mister Underhill* Dread Horseman Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Behind you! Posts: 2,743	Morgoth Bauglir, if you check the link that Sharku provided in the second post in this thread, you will see that the origins and nature of the Orcs are by no means as cut-and-dried as you seem to think. Helpful vocabulary notes for exploring that thread: hröa (pl. hröar): physical body fëa (pl. fëar, often spelt in the thread somewhat confusingly as simply 'fear'): 'rational spirit', or 'soul' if you prefer Much of the info in the topic derives from HoME Volume X, Morgoth's Ring. [ August 19, 2002: Message edited by: Mister Underhill ]

08-19-2002, 10:50 AM	#12
Thranduil Animated Skeleton Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 30	Thank you all. I do believe that orcs would've lost their immortality when they stopped being elves (also, orcs do multiply but not in the same way elves do, if you know what I mean [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ). I imagine goblins probably live longer than humans, but not as long as dwarves. OR maybe they do; if you read the hobbit, they kind of talk about the Dwarf/Goblin War and how the Goblin King (at present) was the son of the king that was killed during the war.