Gollum's Purpose/Motives (To Stir Things Up)

[enep]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 293</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Peer pressure...

Probably. That and peer-pressure from Morgoth. <img src=biggrin.gif ALT=""> He didn't want to admit that he wasn't the Lord of All...

I'll start writing my half today. <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

- enep</p>

[Zoe]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 205</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Peer pressure...

I can just imagine it at the Evil Bad Guys school... &quot;Now remember, it's okay to say no to world domination. Don't feel that just because your friends are doing it, it means that you have to. There is nothing weak about having elements of your realm you can't control - in fact, it means that you're stronger than those who think you have to have everything... And Rings of Power are baaaad, okay?&quot; <img src=laugh.gif ALT=":lol">

</p>

[the Lorien wanderer]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 228</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Peer pressure...

Posts and posts of exactly the same thing. It takes a Wanderer to make things clearer. <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

Sounds interesting e and Z. How bout you set it up next to Z's ME joint in London. I'll send my kids there. <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

BTW-waaaaaaaah!!!! No-one even noticed my new sig. <img src=frown.gif ALT="">

What if - what if this is as good as it gets?</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000038>the Lorien wanderer</A> at: 2/11/01 10:21:48 pm

[enep]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 295</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Aha!

<img src=eek.gif ALT=":eek"> Wow, look at that cool sig! That's amazing! Positively fantastic! <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

Hmm... The Evil School for Crooks, the Insane and the Power Driven Bad Guys Bent on World Domination. That sounds more intellectual <img src=biggrin.gif ALT="">

- enep</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000041>enep</A> at: 2/12/01 12:52:51 am

[Zoe]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 209</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Aha!

Well, if it's going to be intellectual, shouldn't it be called an institution or a college or something like that? And maybe throw some latin into the name...

</p>

[enep]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 297</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Hmm...

furcifer is Latin for scoundrel, but that's just about the only mean-sounding Latin word I know...Any Latin Scholars here? <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

Institution for the Criminally Insane Bent on World Domination and Mass Destruction? <img src=devil.gif ALT=":evil">

- enep</p>

[the Lorien wanderer]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 236</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Hmm...

Sounds rather fascist to me.

e-I'm not quite sure whether I just encountered intense sarcasm or a genuine compliment. Wha the hell, I'll give you the benefit of doubt. Thanks.

What if - what if this is as good as it gets?</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000038>the Lorien wanderer</A> at: 2/12/01 2:36:40 am

[Zoe]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 211</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Hmm...

How about l'Institution de scoundrels, crooks, and those intent on World Domination, as sponsored by Melkor and Seen on TV? That way, you've got French, and recommendations. <img src=devil.gif ALT=":evil">

</p>

[enep]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 299</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Heehee

Merely pulling your proverbial leg, TLW. <img src=wink.gif ALT=""> Love the French. And we'll get Gollum to do the plug.

&quot;Improve your skillssss, they said....what do those nassty perssssonsss do? Nothing, Preciousssss....&quot;

On second thoughts...maybe not <img src=biggrin.gif ALT="">

- enep</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist
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Re: Heehee

Just a few thoughts. The Ring is a thing, it has no will of its own and does not act on its own behalf. It is a band of metal infused with a great part of Sauron's power so that it can be used by Sauron for the purposes for which it was created. These purposes are to control the wills of others and to corrupt, just as Sauron was corrupt. It is altogether evil and cannot be used for good. Even if the wearer intends to do good, the wearer will be corrupted. As a side effect, intended or no, it grants its wearer &quot;invisibility&quot;, or more accurately it partially removes the wearer from the physical plane.

The Ring is Sauron's. It belongs to no other and the extent to which another may use it depends on the bearer's native strength. Gollum, Bilbo, Frodo and Sam are not strong enough to use it to control the wills of others, though Frodo begins to head in that direction as the Ring takes hold. But the Ring still has its power to corrupt. Thus Gollum, being mean spirited from the beginning and having held it for a long time is greatly corrupted. Bilbo, Frodo and Sam are &quot;innocents&quot; and are basically good and are less affected. With Gollum the Ring's corruption and its power to dominate manifest in the desire for revenge; it gives him power or desire to his own slight measure. Sam, being more good natured, fantasizes about making the world into a garden. Galadriel, a greater power possibly capable of weilding it but not possessing it feels its corruption, and would be a queen, beautiful and terrible. With Gandalf, it works on his desire to set things right. Boromir, a captain, would become a great captain and lord over men. Frodo? We do not know. He must have suffered greatly resisting the influence of the Ring.

Even away from his hand, the Ring is Sauron's and his will can affect it. Thus when he begins to regain his power and extends his will, the Ring responds to Sauron's will because he is seeking it, but it has no will of its own. It falls from Gollum's hand in the caverns. When Bilbo reaches the back door of the Goblin's halls it slips off. Bilbo must put it on a chain so it cannot get away. The Ringwraiths, being extensions of Sauron's will and linked to the Ring can call out to it and the result is a desire to put it on as in Morgul Vale and on Weathertop. Similarly, in Bree, both the Ringwraiths and Sauron are calling to it so it slips on during Frodo's song.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ghost-Prince of Cardolan
Posts: 534</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Heehee

e, do you think that sinister is a bad word, it sounds bad. But in Latin it just meant unlucky or on the left.

It seems fate is not without a sense of irony.</p>

[the Lorien wanderer]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 241</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Heehee

Actually I rather think that the reason Gollum became so evil was not because he was bad to begin with, but because the Ring managed to magnify his worst qualities into glaring evil.

What if - what if this is as good as it gets?</p>

[Zoe]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 215</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Gollum's Purpose/Motives (To Stir Things Up)

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Thus Gollum, being mean spirited from the beginning...<hr></blockquote>
I find it hard to believe that in the Middle Earth, anyone could be naturally nasty. Even Morgoth was a Vala, and created good. It was only when he realised what power he could have that he became bad. Ditto Morgoth's servants, including Sauron.

In Gollum's case, he saw Deagol with a (nice, preeeety) Ring. He 'discovered' the power of owning pretty Rings, and killed Deagol. He then further discovered the power of being invisible. While this was happening, the Ring was twisting his will and eating away his good side. He was not 'worse' than Bilbo or Frodo, simply weaker at resisting the Ring.

</p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1862</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Gollum's Purpose/Motives (To Stir Things Up)

I don't agree with the 'created good' theory. The fact that Morgoth rebelled argues directly against it. I'd say rather that the Ainur were created with 'free will' and were enabled to become what they would.

Going way down the food chain, this applies to Gollum, too. Like any mortal creature he was born into the world with the potential for good or evil. The Ring might likely have catylized his evilness from thought to deed, but he was already of dark heart. Else Bilbo would also have turned to evil and slain Gollum in the dark. The different reactions of these two very similar creatures supports this arguement.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

[Mister Underhill]

Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 416
Re: Gollum's Purpose/Motives (To Stir Things Up)

Thus when he begins to regain his power and extends his will, the Ring responds to Sauron's will because he is seeking it, but it has no will of its own. It falls from Gollum's hand in the caverns. When Bilbo reaches the back door of the Goblin's halls it slips off. Bilbo must put it on a chain so it cannot get away. The Ringwraiths, being extensions of Sauron's will and linked to the Ring can call out to it and the result is a desire to put it on as in Morgul Vale and on Weathertop. Similarly, in Bree, both the Ringwraiths and Sauron are calling to it so it slips on during Frodo's song.

I'm up in the air about whether to agree with you, Mith, on the subject of the Ring having at least some ability to act independently. According to your argument, the Ring is completely inanimate and in the cases cited, where it may seem that the Ring is acting on its own, it is in fact only responding to Sauron's "call", either directly or, by extension, through the Nazgûl. This doesn't explain how the Ring was able to treacherously slip off of Isildur's hand shortly after the battle of the Dagorlad.

I agree with the Wight that Sméagol was already a mean-spirited fellow before he came across the Ring. Tolkien seems to have felt that way, too. Here's yet another Letters quote which seems relevant to the discussion:

Into the ultimate judgement upon Gollum I would not care to enquire. This would be to investigate 'Goddes privitee', as the Medievals said. Gollum was pitiable, but he ended in persistent wickedness, and the fact that this worked good was no credit to him. His marvellous courage and endurance, as great as Frodo and Sam's or greater, being devoted to evil was portentous, but not honourable. I am afraid, whatever our beliefs, we have to face the fact that there are persons who yield to temptation, reject their chances of nobility or salvation, and appear to be 'damnable'. Their 'damnability' is not measurable in the terms of the macrocosm (where it may work good). But we who are all 'in the same boat' must not usurp the Judge. The domination of the Ring was much too strong for the mean soul of Sméagol. But he would have never had to endure it if he had not become a mean sort of thief before it crossed his path. Need it ever have crossed his path? Need anything dangerous ever cross any of our paths? A kind of answer could be found in trying to imagine Gollum overcoming temptation. The story would have been quite different! By temporizing, not fixing the still not wholly corrupt Smeagol-will towards good in the debate in the slag hole, he weakened himself for the final chance when dawning love of Frodo was too easily withered by the jealousy of Sam before Shelob's lair. After that he was lost.

[enep]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 300</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
The Ring

Now I really, really hate EzBoard. My really long post just got lost...in cyberspace. Not that I can reproduce it exactly <img src=wink.gif ALT=""> but here we go:

Objects in Middle Earth seem to have a life of their own. Gurthang spoke to Turin. The Silmarils burnt the hands of only those that they deemed not worthy. What is to say that the Ring did not? The Ring is treacherous in itself. The fact that it left Gollum was not because Sauron made it do so; but for several reasons. It could see nothing in Gollum and was no use:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;It could make no further use of him: (Gollum) he was too small and mean; and as long as it stayed with him he would never leave his dep pool again.&quot;<hr></blockquote>
And 2.: Summons. Sauron and the Nazgul could not, as they were, tell the Ring to come out of hiding and return. Sauron, in the TA, did not even know where the ring was; he was looking for it. These summons were heard by the Ring, and in order to make it's way back to Mordor the Ring realises it must leave Gollum:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;A Ring of Power looks after itself, Frodo. It may slip off treacherously, but it's keeper never abandons it...It was not Gollum, Frodo, but the Ring itself that decided things. The Ring left him.&quot; (Gandalf to Frodo, FoTR The Shadow of the Past)<hr></blockquote>
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;There was more than one power at work, Frodo. The Ring was trying to get back to its master. It had slipped from Isisldur's hand and betrayed him; then when a chance came it caught poor Deagol, and he was murdered; and after that Gollum and it had devoured him...So now, whe its master was awake once more and sending out his dark thought from Mirkwood, it abandoned Gollum.&quot;<hr></blockquote>
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;Behind that there was something else at work, beyond any design of the Ring-maker. I can put it no plainer than by saying that Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker.&quot;<hr></blockquote>
From these we learn several things. That Gollum apparently (despite the text I still believe that Gollum had a corner of his own mind) had no control, that the Ring controlled him. That it left him because its Master was sending out summons (partly) and because Gollum was hindering it's cause; and that the Ring had wanted Bilbo to find the Ring. Also, that it (not Sauron) had betrayed Isildur, and it had caught Deagol, establishing some sort of independence within the Ring; but this independance was no doubt bound to the Will of Sauron, and for that reason he was able to summon it.

I agree with BW's point on all mortals in ME entering into the world with open hearts; but Gollum was always enquisitive from the beginning &quot;diving into deep pools&quot; and the Ring, as TLW pointed out (as did numerous others) corrupted this love for deep and dark places, his wants for revenge and repentance over the killing over Deagol, his torn mind and hatred of light into something darker, more sinister. Twisting his bad qualities.

Z - I disagree with Gollum being less resistant towards the Ring.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;Even Gollum was not wholly ruined. He had proved tougher tahn even one of the Wise would have guessed.&quot;<hr></blockquote>
Gollum held the Ring for many hundreds of years, and had not fully crossed over to 'the spiritual side;' that is, he was not a wraith in full, but rather a wretched, withered soul. Seeing Frodo sleeping peacefully and remembering his path just made him all that more wretched, even if it did awaken the Smeagol-will. He was beyond cure; but definitely not less resistant.

That post was longer than the first one. <img src=rolleyes.gif ALT=":rolleyes">

PS, my 300th post. Woohoo! <img src=biggrin.gif ALT="">


- enep</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000041>enep</A> at: 2/13/01 6:12:03 pm

[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 424</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The Ring

Good post, enep. I would only add a couple of things.

First, I think that this quote:

'Behind that there was something else at work, beyond any design of the Ring-maker. I can put it no plainer than by saying that Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker.'

...implies that the guiding hand of Ilúvatar (or, if you prefer, Fate or Destiny) led Bilbo to put his hand on the Ring in the dark -- not the design of the Ring itself.

Secondly, just to elaborate a bit on this interesting point:

this independance was no doubt bound to the Will of Sauron, and for that reason he was able to summon it.

...I'll offer another "Letters" quote (can you tell I recently got a copy of "Letters"? ):

[Sauron] let a great part of his own inherent power (a frequent and very significant motive in myth and fairy-story) pass into the One Ring. While he wore it, his power on earth was actually enhanced. But even if he did not wear it, that power existed and was in 'rapport' with himself: he was not 'diminished'.

It's creepy to think of the Ring as a little container of "Sauron-essence" from which he was able to draw power even though he didn't know where it was. No wonder the thing was so corruptive! Kind of like how they think using cell phones can give you brain cancer. The Cell Phone of Power, in silent rapport with the Dark Lord of Telecommunications, all the time eating away at your mind, twisting and corrupting the good and noble purposes of your telephone calls...

[enep]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 301</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Cellphones

<img src=eek.gif ALT=":eek"> ARGH! The Dark Lord of Communications and his Nine Evil ISPs. <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

Good point Re: Fate/Destiny/Illuvatar, I missed that one. I was thinking along the lines that the Ring sends out a sort of evil cellphone 'vibe' and it attracted itself to a potential bearer such as it did when it was espied by Deagol. Anyway...

Nice elaboration. <img src=biggrin.gif ALT=""> I have yet to find a copy of Letters...

- enep</p>

[the Lorien wanderer]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 252</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Cellphones

Congrats e!
I think that Gollum was NOT evil spirited to begin with. He had a few evil characteristics but that doesn't make him BAD as such. One of his faults was greed which is why he was taken over so easily by the Ring, because the Ring exploited that evil to the fullest. I won't elaborate further because I already did a couple of posts back.

What if - what if this is as good as it gets?</p>

[Mister Underhill]

Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 428
If this is good...

I fail to see what you're basing that on, TLW. Gollum strangled his "friend" Déagol, then "cunningly" hid his body, "because the gold looked so bright and beautiful." Then, when he realized that the Ring made him invisible, "He was very pleased with his discovery and he concealed it; and he used it to find out secrets, and he put his knowledge to crooked and malicious uses. He became sharp-eyed and keen-eared for all that was hurtful."

Contrast Gollum's behavior with Bilbo's or Frodo's during the years that they possessed the Ring, unsuspecting of its true nature. He sounds like a cold-blooded thief and a murderer to me.

[Zoe]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: If this is good...

But we hear nothing (as far as I know) of Gollum before he found the Ring. For all we know, it was the Ring sending out evil-Ring-vibes which made Gollum kill Deagol, and before that, he was quite nice (but we won't go back into the matter of Gollum's will and motives...)

PS: Congrats, e!

</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: If this is good...



Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
&quot;Behind that there was something else at work, beyond any design of the Ring-maker. I can put it no plainer than by saying that Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker.&quot;
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This should not be confused with some conscious will of the Ring itself. Gandalf seems to be implying some action of &quot;fate&quot; here.

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
&quot;There was more than one power at work, Frodo. The Ring was trying to get back to its master. It had slipped from Isisldur's hand and betrayed him; then when a chance came it caught poor Deagol, and he was murdered; and after that Gollum and it had devoured him...So now, whe its master was awake once more and sending out his dark thought from Mirkwood, it abandoned Gollum.&quot;
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This is subject to interpretation. Sauron was exercising his control over the Ring in an effort to have its location revealed.

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
&quot;A Ring of Power looks after itself, Frodo. It may slip off treacherously, but it's keeper never abandons it...It was not Gollum, Frodo, but the Ring itself that decided things. The Ring left him.&quot; (Gandalf to Frodo, FoTR The Shadow of the Past)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Here again, Sauron was calling out to the Ring. While the Ring may have slipped off Gollum's hand, it may have been in response to Sauron seeking it.

With respect to the Nazguls, I may have worded my argument clumsily. The wraiths are linked to the Ring and generally aware of its proximity. The Ring tends to corrupt its wearer and generate a lust or desire to claim or use it. The Nazgul seem to have some ability to amplify this influence on the bearer. Thus Frodo tells Strider it was an accident that the Ring slipped on at the Prancing Pony and Strider responds &quot;I wonder&quot;.

The example of Isildur is most difficult to reconcile with my argument. Sauron had been vanquished and presumably was not extending his power to the Ring or otherwise. Yet the Ring slips off in the presence of Sauron's &quot;troops&quot;. Tough issue raised here and I was aware of it when I made my post. Could the Wraiths have been involved in this event (and possibly been the organizing force behind the attack which appears to have been well-thought out and planned)? What happened to the Wraiths after Sauron was defeated at the end of the Second age? Were they even around then?



--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Mister Underhill]

Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 429
Re: If this is good...

But we hear nothing (as far as I know) of Gollum before he found the Ring. For all we know, it was the Ring sending out evil-Ring-vibes which made Gollum kill Deagol, and before that, he was quite nice (but we won't go back into the matter of Gollum's will and motives...)

I doubt the Ring, when not even in Gollum's possession, could work so sudden and evil a deed without some predisposition on Gollum's part for evil. Bilbo held the Ring for years, but he used it only to avoid unwanted callers and to play the occasional prank. He didn't use it to sneak around finding out information that he could put to malicious uses, and he certainly didn't throttle any of his close friends.

Mithadan, I don't think the Nazgûl were the organizing force behind the attack on Isildur. This quote from UT suggests that the Nine really had no will to speak of outside of Sauron's:

...his mightiest servants, the Ringwraiths, who had no will but his own, being each utterly subservient to the ring that had enslaved him, which Sauron held.

And anyway, these other quotes from UT indicate that the Nine indeed fled after Sauron's fall, and that the Orc band that attacked Isildur was a detachment sent by Sauron to trouble passage through the mountain passes by his enemies. They hadn't heard of Sauron's defeat and, indeed, thinkinging him victorious, attacked Isildur's "retreating" force in a bid to win the praise of their master.

It is unlikely that any news of Sauron's fall had reached them, for he had been straitly besieged in Mordor and all his forces had been destroyed. If any few had escaped, they had fled far to the East with the Ringwraiths. This small detachment in the North, of no account, was forgotten. Probably they thought that Sauron had been victorious, and the war-scarred army of Thranduil was retreating to hide in fastnesses of the Forest. Thus they would be emboldened and eager to win their master's praise, though they had not been in the main battles. But it was not his praise they would have won, if any had lived long enough to see his revival. No tortures would have satisfied his anger with the bungling fools who had let slip the greatest prize in Middle-earth...

The prof does mention that the ferocity of the Orcs' attack may have been due in some measure to the influence of the Ring, even though they were unaware of it.

This quote also seems to argue in favor of the Ring having some will or initiative of its own:

It was little more than two years since it had left his [Sauron's] hand, and though it was swiftly cooling it was still heavy with his evil will, and seeking all means to return to its lord (as it did again when he recovered and was rehoused).

[enep]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 309</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The Ring

Looking at Appendix B to LoTR:
&quot;3441 (SA) Sauron overthrown...Isildur takes the One Ring...Sauron passes away and the Ringwraiths go into shadows.&quot;
The Ringwraiths were definitely not around when Isildur perished.

As to Evil-Ring-Drug-Rainbow Vibes <img src=rolleyes.gif ALT=":rolleyes"> The Ring was looking to return to it's master. It &quot;seized the oppurtunity&quot; when Deagol dived into the river and &quot;caught him&quot;. Whether it had sensed something in him I know not; but it is my personal opinion that it saw something else in Smeagol, something it could work into evil, and 'latched' onto him.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;Here again, Sauron was calling out to the Ring. While the Ring may have slipped off Gollum's hand, it may have been in response to Sauron seeking it.&quot;<hr></blockquote>

That's what I'm trying to say. The Ring slipped off Gollum's hand because it was responding to Sauron seeking it, ('sending out his dark thought from Mirkwood') and could see nothing left in Gollum - realized that it would never return to it's master if it did not leave Gollum.

Sauron may or may not have been exercising control over the Ring; but I severely doubt that he would have had any influence over the Ring's 'capture' of Deagol and then Smeagol; and even less influence over the betrayal of Isildur. He knew not where the Ring was or had been until Gollum made his way to Mordor, several years after Bilbo had escaped from the Back Door; and the Ring itself, before and after Gollum found it is reputed to have (like the Ringwraiths and Sauron himself) 'gone into shadows.'

PS Congrats on your Shade promotion TLW. <img src=smile.gif ALT="">



- enep</p>

[the Lorien wanderer]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 257</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The Ring

Thanks e.
Mr.U- I think that Gollum was not EVIL to begin with. He certainly had some evil qualities but on the whole he was normal. Greed was one of his faults. Thus when the Ring became aware of Gollum's greed, it started working upon it and thus he killed Deagol and hid his body. He did it because his fault was magnified by the Ring not because he had a huge fault to begin with.
Bilbo too, in case you remember, lied to the other hobbits about the Ring at first. Perhaps the Ring had worked upon Bilbo's wanting to achieve something and getting the hobbits' admiration, for which he was willing to stretch the truth a little bit. Just a thought.

What if - what if this is as good as it gets?</p>

[enep]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 321</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Hmm...

And not a bad thought...the Ring sets to work almost immediately no matter how kind or nasty the new bearer is, so I don't think on the whole it mattered whether either were good at heart, if they used the Ring alot; which Bilbo didn't.

Just another thought <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

- enep</p>

[Mister Underhill]

Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 444
Re: Gollum's Purpose/Motives (To Stir Things Up)

Bilbo too, in case you remember, lied to the other hobbits about the Ring at first.

A lie and murder are fair worlds apart, I'd say. Lots of people come into contact with the Ring "second-hand", the way Sméagol did with Déagol, and none of them are inspired to throttle anyone. Pippin, Merry, and Sam all refrain. Even Boromir attacks only after weeks of traveling together with Frodo -- and then immediately repents. Although, I have to admit, if Boromir had gotten his hands on the Ring, the chances that he would have repented so readily seem pretty dim. Anyways, Tolkien himself describes Gollum as being "a mean sort of thief before it [the Ring] crossed his path." Perhaps he wasn't an evil killer beforehand, but I'd say it's stretching it to assert that he was "normal".

Edited by: Mister Underhill at: 2/15/01 11:41:58 am

[the Lorien wanderer]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 262</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Gollum's Purpose/Motives (To Stir Things Up)

Perhaps it's best to say Gollum wasn't a very nice guy.

What if - what if this is as good as it gets?</p>

[enep]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 337</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Hmm

Perhaps. But then...where would the debate come from??? <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

- enep</p>

[Zoe]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 229</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Hmm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Mostly because of the apparent slackness in posting, I've decided to spark a conversation. It will probably languish into oblivion after a few posts; but try and keep it going. <hr></blockquote>
Yes, well... <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000122>Zoe</A> at: 2/16/01 9:16:43 pm

[enep]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 341</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Hmm

Hmm...maybe I was a little shortsighted, but...<img src=biggrin.gif ALT="">

- enep</p>

[the Lorien wanderer]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 266</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Hmm

Rather shortsighted I'd say. <img src=wink.gif ALT=""> However, it may eventually languish into oblivion. As did our 'Elrond the Vampire'. *sigh* That was my favourite thread.

What if - what if this is as good as it gets?</p>

[enep]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 347</TD><TD><img src=http://www.dodgywebsite.homestead.com/files/Kungfu_01.gif WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Hmm

Favourite because it languished into oblivion? <img src=laugh.gif ALT=":lol"> <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

- enep</p>

[the Lorien wanderer]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 272</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Hmm

No, and what IS that monstrostity? <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

What if - what if this is as good as it gets?</p>

[enep]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 353</TD><TD><img src=http://www.dodgywebsite.homestead.com/files/Kungfu_01.gif WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Hmm

<img src=laugh.gif ALT=":lol"> Joking, joking.

Monstrosity? <img src=frown.gif ALT=""> *sniff* It's just a whole bunch of animated dots. Thought it looked better on a black background then the hitchhiking pickle <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

- enep</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000041>enep</A> at: 2/17/01 11:47:40 pm

[Zoe]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 233</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Hmm

I personally prefer the cactus - it's hard to see what the dots are doing.

There's something even more disturbing about dots doing karate than hitch-hiking pickles... <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

</p>

[burrahobbit]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hidden Spirit
Posts: 628</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Hmm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> There's something even more disturbing about dots doing karate than hitch-hiking pickles<hr></blockquote>
Exactly why it should be kept!

What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>

[enep]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 449</TD><TD><img src=http://www.dodgywebsite.homestead.com/files/Kungfu_01.gif WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Hmm

Well...another refreshment. I'd like to know what some of the newer members think about this...<img src=wink.gif ALT="">

- enep</p>

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased
Posts: 1</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> re:Gollums motives

you haven't read the story well have you? Gollum had no say in what happened the ring was totaly in controll over gollumand as a result the ring was simply trying to make it's way back to mordor as Gandalf says the ring can only be ruled by one master. The person who forged it soron

</p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 2300</TD><TD><img src=http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/my_pic.jpg WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Gollum's Purpose/Motives (To Stir Things Up)

Actually, it may be you that is missing the point of this thread. Gollum was definitely totally enthralled by the Ring, but beyond his constant yearning for it, it did not direct his intentions. In fact, he voiced such intentions as &quot;make them pay&quot; - intentions that had nothing to do with Sauron other than that the Dark Lord was included in 'they'.

In short, Gollum DID have a say in the actions he took to regain the Ring, except that he couldn't stop looking for it.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>