Did Eru have physical form?

I've been reading up on the creation of Arda through Iluvatar and his Music (side note, must recommend The Encyclopedia of Arda as a great resource, in addition to Barrow Downs of course). There seems to be no reference to any physical form that Eru might have taken or been described as. Although I'm not a scholar of the Silmarillion or anything, I was just curious if Tolkien ever described what Eru might look like to the people of Middle Earth. Did they envision him as having human form or something completely different? Thanks.

[ArathorofBarahir]

I think this is very similar to what most Christians ask themselves everyday. What does God look like and what is heaven going to be like? And of course nobody will know until they die. So I think your question has the same answer as this one. Everyone has their own opinion of what God looks like and what heaven is like. So I think that different people would have had different opinions on what Eru looks like.

[ArathorofBarahir]

By the way now that you mentioned it, what exactly is the Encyclopedia of Arda because I looked on amazon.com and it didn't have anything. So what is this Encyclopedia of Arda.

It's an indepth website about the works and world of Tolkien. Great stuff, still being updated, but very organised and well-referenced.

Here's the link:The Encyclopedia of Arda

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

Taking into account that the Ainur don't have a physical form, that they are only spiritual creatures (even though they can cloth in material bodies if they want); in my opinion it would be logical that Eru didn't have a physical form, either [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Mahal]

But its said in the Sil that Eru was terrible to behold, with the third music he made after Melkor, or with Melkor.

[Sharkû]

Eru did not have a physical form as he never entered into Ea. It's as simple as that.

Assuming he never actually took physical form, would not the people have imagined him as something? I suppose it's just hard for me to think of some big shapeless spirit/creator out there - and I would thus transfer those ideas onto the people of Middle Earth.

[Finwe]

Eru wouldn't necessarily have to take on a physical form to appear fair or terrible. Sometimes looking at a person's expression is the only way to tell what they are thinking, but in some cases, you don't need expression. For example, look at a flame. There is a very big difference between a small, cozy, campfire and a huge, raging forest fire. I think Eru is kind of like that. His "aura" changes depending on how he feels. I have always imagined him as being a "naked flame" since the Sil says that unclothed, the Ainur were like naked flames (so I'm assuming something of the same applies to Eru).

[Kuruharan]

Assuming he never actually took physical form, would not the people have imagined him as something?

I don't believe they thought about him that much. Most humans had no knowledge of him. The Elves knew that he existed, but they related to the Valar because the Elves were closer to them. Those humans who knew about Eru, also knew of the Valar and gained their knowledge from the Elves. The Edain tended to pick up the Elvish view of things so they too likely thought more of the Valar than Eru.

In terms of Arda, Eru was a mysterious figure that was entirely Other. Aside from the Valar (and even they had only an imperfect vision) the rest of the inhabitants of the world lacked the mental and spiritual tools to approach or understand Eru.

If they imagined him at all, they likely had some rather bizarre and inaccurate ideas of him.

[Legolas]

There is no embodiment of the One, of God, who indeed remains remote, outside the World, and only directly accessible to the Valar or Rulers.

The Incarnation of God is an infinitely greater thing than anything I would dare to write.

[Angry Hill Troll]

The Incarnation of God is an infinitely greater thing than anything I would dare to write.

Tolkien did, however, refer rather explicitly to the possibility of this happening at some point in Arda's future, in the Athrabeth. The topic is discussed in this thread. Finrod points out that it is unlikely that Eru could ever be completely contained in a physical form, which would necessarily be finite.

..it seems to me, even if He in Himself were to enter in, He must still also remain as He is: the Author without.

Note also that in the oral tradition of the Edain referred to by Andreth "the Tale of Adanel" the Voice of Eru spoke to men before they met any of the elves or Ainur. So it may not be strictly true that the only knowledge of Eru which men possessed came from the elves.

It isn't clear just what the phrase "his [Eru's] face was terrible to behold" means, since Eä had not yet been created, and it doesn't appear likely that the Ainur would have had physical form either, during the music. A short time later the text says "..he showed to them a vision, giving to them sight where before was only hearing..." Does this mean that before this point the Ainur did not possess sight, or only that previously they were not able to see what the Music entailed? In any event, I think that "face" doesn't really imply a physical form, at least not in the sense that they exist within Arda.

If you don't think that eru had any way of appearing in physical form, than how could he interact physically with the Ainur? I mean, he would have to appear in some kind of light, or even a setient being that was monolithic in body and mind. He can't have just "been", that would contradict Alqualonde completely.

[Kuruharan]

He can't have just "been", that would contradict Alqualonde completely.

If I could ask for some clarification on what you mean, "How so?"

[Sharkû]

The only kind of interaction seems to have been Manwe 'calling upon Eru for guidance'. I do not think this is explained anywhere else. Either a 'link of minds' between Eru and his steward can be imagined, or a system of portents. Anyway, he need not have been physically present to be communicated with.

As for those passages speaking of Eru's appearance outside Ea, such as in the Ainulindale, we might take them to be mythologically altered by the Ainur, trying to put into words which cannot be comprehended. Adanel's Tale might or might not take too great liberties there in assigning an actual voice to Eru.

If I could ask for some clarification on what you mean, "How so?"

In Alqualonde (TS), it refers to at least a couple of times to the countenance (facial expression) of eru. This would indicate that eru did in fact have a face of some kind, if not an entire body.

[Kuruharan]

Not necessarily. As Sharkû already indicated, this could be considered a literary device because the writer lacked the means to express things in a different way.

I see your point. Does anyone know of any of Tolkein's letters concerning or including this topic?

[Elladan and Elrohir]

Good quotes, Legolas.
And another one:

"The One does not physically inhabit any part of Ea."

What I find intriguing is that while Eru is obviously there, if you know what I mean, in LOTR, He is only directly mentioned twice -- once by Arwen in "The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen" and in one other instance in the Appendices.

[yavanna II]

maybe this is an unanswered question since someone told me JRRT died with his newer ideas of Ea still unrevealed. Why not ask Proffesor Trelawney about this?

[Lord of Angmar]

Eru did not take physical form in the sense that he was never viewable our touchable by the peoples of Middle Earth. Although it can (probably) be assumed that the Ainur saw him in some raiment, it is doubtful that this was his "true form," and it is also doubtful that he would every reveal any form to the peoples of Ea. Professor Tolkien specifically said that Eru would never take any sort of physical embodiment in Middle Earth, nor would he enter into Ea at all.

[Angry Hill Troll]

Professor Tolkien specifically said that Eru would never take any sort of physical embodiment in Middle Earth, nor would he enter into Ea at all.

It's a bit hard to reconcile this statement with the Athrabeth, where Andreth specifically expresses the belief that at some point in the future Eru would take a physical embodiment in Arda. Granted, perhaps Tolkien has Andreth saying something fanciful which he [Tolkien] knows to be impossible. But in that case, why bother writing the Athrabeth? (Especially since this idea very much follows Tolkien's own religious beliefs).

I assume the quote above is from the Letters, I'm curious when the statement was written, specifically whether it preceeded or followed the Athrabeth (written ca. 1955-1960). Did he back off the idea of Incarnation expressed in the Athrabeth afterwards, or did the Athrabeth contradict his earlier ideas?

In the Notes, CT acknowledges that there were "problems...for the interpretations of my father's thought on these matters"

[Lord of Angmar]

Granted, perhaps Tolkien has Andreth saying something fanciful which he [Tolkien] knows to be impossible.

Indeed, I think this may be the case. I remember a similar situation arose in a previous thread, though sadly my failing memory will not allow me to remember exactly what the topic of conversation was. It had to do with information that the hobbits gleaned from Treebeard, I believe, which was later deemed false by Professor Tolkien himself. I shall try to find out what it was. In any case that sort of thing does happen. The Athrabeth may well be the correct source to consult in this case, but I shall try to find the original source for my assumption that Eru will never take physical form in Middle Earth (I believe it came from the Ainulindale or Morgoth's Ring).

Cheers,
Angmar

[Sharkû]

The idea that in the end, Eru will come to claim His creation from Morgoth is pretty much the whole point of _estel_. On the same ground, this is another proof that Eru cannot be physically present before the End; in which, as Andreth considers, the coming of the creator into his work might even shatter it altogether:

<font size="-2">'Truly,' said Andreth. 'So may Eru in that mode be present in Eä that proceeded from Him. But they speak of Eru Himself entering into Arda, and that is a thing wholly different. How could He the greater do this? Would it not shatter Arda, or indeed all Eä?'
'Ask me not,' said Finrod. 'These things are beyond the compass of the wisdom of the Eldar, or of the Valar maybe. But I doubt that our words may mislead us, and that when you say "greater" you think of the dimensions of Arda, in which the greater vessel may not be contained in the less.
'But such words may not be used of the Measureless. If Eru wished to do this, I do not doubt that He would find a way, though I cannot foresee it. For, as it seems to me, even if He in Himself were to enter in, He must still remain also as He is: the Author without. [...]
Therefore Eru, if He will not relinquish His work to Melkor, who must else proceed to mastery, then Eru must come in to conquer him." (HoME X, 4)

On the other hand, it is well possible that this very conception was considered "too like a parody of Christianity" (ibid, commentary).

I have read in depth both the first chapter of the Silmarillion, and also, the guide to Beleriand, and nowhere does it suggest that Eru has a physical form