constellations - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

FingolfintheBold · 06-13-2003, 09:15 PM

I konw that Tolkien mentions several constellations in LoTR, but what i was wondering is if there are stories behind any of them. Even such an off hand reference as the Cats of Queen Beruthiel has a story behind it, so what about Menelvagor and other star groups. Are there any recorded stories about such heros?

Finwe · 06-13-2003, 09:29 PM

I'm not sure about Menelvagor, but I do know that there is a bit of a story behind The Sickle of the Valar (what we would call the Big Dipper). Varda put it up there as a warning to Morgoth that he would eventually get his butt kicked by the Valar! She also put up the constellations using the dew of Telperion.

Estelyn Telcontar · 06-14-2003, 12:40 AM

There is a website with information on Middle-earth constellations and a star chart with their names. Enjoy The Stars of Arda!

You might also be interested in reading a fan fiction by Sharkû which tells the story of Menelvagor, the Swordsman constellation: Withgisl.

piosenniel · 06-14-2003, 03:18 AM

Look HERE - the third question down on the page for an interesting discussion of the constellations.

[ June 14, 2003: Message edited by: piosenniel ]

burrahobbit · 06-14-2003, 04:12 AM

In addition to those helpful links, there is some about stars in the first parts of the Silmarillion.

FingolfintheBold · 06-14-2003, 08:32 AM

Thanks! And great sites!

HCIsland · 06-15-2003, 07:36 PM

Very neat sites guys, thanks. One observation though. They have Middle Earth names for the planets Uranus and Neptune, but that makes little sense as these planets are not visible to the naked eye and were not known to the ancient world.

What would make more sense would be to attach names to the brighter stars in the sky, especially Sirius.

H.C.

Gorwingel · 06-16-2003, 06:18 PM

That is very cool how they gave names to the planets. Strangly whenever I read the books I never really think of the planets being part of the Middle Earth world.

HCIsland · 06-17-2003, 11:52 AM

Same with me Gorwingel. Mixing up planets and stars is a laymans mistake and not one that ancient peoples made. Planets were stars that moved around and it was ancient astrologers that named them for us (at least the visible ones).

So when Tolkien mentions Earendel's Star, I'm not convinced he is talking about Jupiter. It could be Sirius (the brightest star). As well the red star could be Betelgeuse, which is a very bright red star.

When Tolkien said star, he could have meant exactly that, star not planet. Someone like Aragorn who is steeped in ancient lore certainly would have never made the mistake of saying star when he meant planet. Then again, I've never heard that Tolkien was particularly learned in astronomy or astrology either, so mixing up the two could have been a mistake on his part.

It's tough to call.

H.C.

Amarie of the Vanyar · 06-17-2003, 12:48 PM

Ëarendil's star is Venus, not Jupiter. It is the last star in the morning, which in European tradition corresponds to Venus (I don't know whether in southern hemisphere Jupiter is the morning star).

And the relationship between the names in the Silmarillion and the planets is given by Christopher Tolkien in the Index of HoME10, 'Morgoth's Ring', from the initials that J.R.R. Tolkien had wrote ubove the names (for example, he wrote 'Jup' above Alkarinque, and 'M' above Karnil) [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

HCIsland · 06-17-2003, 04:58 PM

Thanks, Amarie. I never realized they were explicitly set out like that.

By the way, Venus is an evening "star" half the time and a morning "star" the other half, as is Mercury. Mars, Jupiter and Saturn can be in the sky at any time of night. Which hemisphere you are in is not relevant. That just effects whether the planets tend to be in the southern half of the sky or the northern half.

H.C.

Amarie of the Vanyar · 06-18-2003, 11:22 AM

Thank you, too, HCIsland, for your explanation on morning and evening stars [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I didn't know it [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

06-13-2003, 09:15 PM	#1
FingolfintheBold Haunting Spirit Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Somewhere between knowing my path and walking it Posts: 69	constellations I konw that Tolkien mentions several constellations in LoTR, but what i was wondering is if there are stories behind any of them. Even such an off hand reference as the Cats of Queen Beruthiel has a story behind it, so what about Menelvagor and other star groups. Are there any recorded stories about such heros? __________________ There long the golden leaves have grown, upon the branching years, while here beyond the sundering seas, now fall the Elven-tears... but if of ships I now would sing, what ship would come to me, what ship would bear me ever back, across so wide a sea?

06-13-2003, 09:29 PM	#2
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	I'm not sure about Menelvagor, but I do know that there is a bit of a story behind The Sickle of the Valar (what we would call the Big Dipper). Varda put it up there as a warning to Morgoth that he would eventually get his butt kicked by the Valar! She also put up the constellations using the dew of Telperion. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

06-14-2003, 12:40 AM	#3
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	There is a website with information on Middle-earth constellations and a star chart with their names. Enjoy The Stars of Arda! You might also be interested in reading a fan fiction by Sharkû which tells the story of Menelvagor, the Swordsman constellation: Withgisl. __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

06-14-2003, 03:18 AM	#4
piosenniel Desultory Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Pickin' flowers with Bill the Cat..... Posts: 7,779	Look HERE - the third question down on the page for an interesting discussion of the constellations. [ June 14, 2003: Message edited by: piosenniel ] __________________ Eldest, that’s what I am . . . I knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.

06-14-2003, 04:12 AM	#5
burrahobbit Hidden Spirit Join Date: May 2000 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,424	In addition to those helpful links, there is some about stars in the first parts of the Silmarillion. __________________ What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?

06-14-2003, 08:32 AM	#6
FingolfintheBold Haunting Spirit Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Somewhere between knowing my path and walking it Posts: 69	Thanks! And great sites! __________________ There long the golden leaves have grown, upon the branching years, while here beyond the sundering seas, now fall the Elven-tears... but if of ships I now would sing, what ship would come to me, what ship would bear me ever back, across so wide a sea?

06-15-2003, 07:36 PM	#7
HCIsland Zombie Cannibal Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,000	Very neat sites guys, thanks. One observation though. They have Middle Earth names for the planets Uranus and Neptune, but that makes little sense as these planets are not visible to the naked eye and were not known to the ancient world. What would make more sense would be to attach names to the brighter stars in the sky, especially Sirius. H.C. __________________ "Stir not the bitterness in the cup that I mixed myself. Have I not tasted it now many nights upon my tongue, foreboding that worse yet lay in the dregs." -Denethor

06-16-2003, 06:18 PM	#8
Gorwingel Beholder of the Mists Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Somewhere in the Northwest... for now Posts: 1,419	That is very cool how they gave names to the planets. Strangly whenever I read the books I never really think of the planets being part of the Middle Earth world. __________________ Wanted - Wonderfully witty quote that consists of pure brilliance

06-17-2003, 11:52 AM	#9
HCIsland Zombie Cannibal Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,000	Same with me Gorwingel. Mixing up planets and stars is a laymans mistake and not one that ancient peoples made. Planets were stars that moved around and it was ancient astrologers that named them for us (at least the visible ones). So when Tolkien mentions Earendel's Star, I'm not convinced he is talking about Jupiter. It could be Sirius (the brightest star). As well the red star could be Betelgeuse, which is a very bright red star. When Tolkien said star, he could have meant exactly that, star not planet. Someone like Aragorn who is steeped in ancient lore certainly would have never made the mistake of saying star when he meant planet. Then again, I've never heard that Tolkien was particularly learned in astronomy or astrology either, so mixing up the two could have been a mistake on his part. It's tough to call. H.C. __________________ "Stir not the bitterness in the cup that I mixed myself. Have I not tasted it now many nights upon my tongue, foreboding that worse yet lay in the dregs." -Denethor

06-17-2003, 12:48 PM	#10
Amarie of the Vanyar Wight Join Date: May 2003 Location: Valinor Posts: 215	Ëarendil's star is Venus, not Jupiter. It is the last star in the morning, which in European tradition corresponds to Venus (I don't know whether in southern hemisphere Jupiter is the morning star). And the relationship between the names in the Silmarillion and the planets is given by Christopher Tolkien in the Index of HoME10, 'Morgoth's Ring', from the initials that J.R.R. Tolkien had wrote ubove the names (for example, he wrote 'Jup' above Alkarinque, and 'M' above Karnil) [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ But it is said that not until that hour had such cold thoughts ruled Finrod; for indeed she whom he had loved was Amarië of the Vanyar, and she went not with him into exile.

06-17-2003, 04:58 PM	#11
HCIsland Zombie Cannibal Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,000	Thanks, Amarie. I never realized they were explicitly set out like that. By the way, Venus is an evening "star" half the time and a morning "star" the other half, as is Mercury. Mars, Jupiter and Saturn can be in the sky at any time of night. Which hemisphere you are in is not relevant. That just effects whether the planets tend to be in the southern half of the sky or the northern half. H.C. __________________ "Stir not the bitterness in the cup that I mixed myself. Have I not tasted it now many nights upon my tongue, foreboding that worse yet lay in the dregs." -Denethor

06-18-2003, 11:22 AM	#12
Amarie of the Vanyar Wight Join Date: May 2003 Location: Valinor Posts: 215	Thank you, too, HCIsland, for your explanation on morning and evening stars [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I didn't know it [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ But it is said that not until that hour had such cold thoughts ruled Finrod; for indeed she whom he had loved was Amarië of the Vanyar, and she went not with him into exile.