Feanor's skill - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

WarBringer · 06-02-2003, 01:24 PM

Feanor's skill was said to be greatest among elves-but how about other races of beings? Does anyone disagree with Feanor having the greatest skill of all non-divine beings?

(You'll have to forgive my post riding-im in college and returning after a long absense)

the guy who be short · 06-02-2003, 01:41 PM

Well, the elves had the most skill out of all the races. (We could have a long discussion here people. Let's not!) So yes, i think that Feanor was the most gifted of all the Children of Iluvatar... and children of Melkor... and Aule... and hobbits.

Now theres a question! Were hobbits children of Iluvatar?

Welcome back, War Bringer.

WarBringer · 06-02-2003, 01:49 PM

thats a tough one- i personally dont think so, although maybe there was once a union between men and dwarfs...

Beren87 · 06-02-2003, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Were hobbits children of Iluvatar?

No, and neither were the Dwarves. Only those races, being Men and Elves, conceived by Illuvatar alone are counted among his Children.

Legolas · 06-02-2003, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Were hobbits children of Iluvatar?

Yes. Hobbits are men.

Beren87 · 06-02-2003, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Yes. Hobbits are men.

They're closely related, but can a species that (I'm going to say evolved, don't yell at me) evolved really be considered the same species? We might have to say primates are the Children of Illuvatar if we're doing that.

They were created in the first age, but not conceived in the third theme, which is really the criteria of a Child of Illuvatar.

[ June 02, 2003: Message edited by: Beren87 ]

Scott · 06-02-2003, 10:03 PM

I think the word species is a bit too narrow for the question. I don't know if I'm getting at inferring the use of the word genus, or anything... honestly, I've been away from any biology texts for too long to infer such a thing. I do think however, that hobbits would have to be counted as men. The differences between men and hobbits aren't as far off as those separating say a Numenorien from a (and forgive my diction) "lesser man" of Middle Earth. And without trying to throw the race card into this, I see the difference as being similar to that of being a Scotsman versus being from China. Maybe more appropriately, a Haradrim versus a farmer in Rohan.

And, although I did see the warning against such a post, I think it would be quite a nice... umm... debate, on whether or not the dwarves were better craftsmen than Feanor was. I personally don't think so, but there may be some Gimli fans out there who could bring up some very swaying evidence - the Nauglamir, for example.

Beren87 · 06-02-2003, 10:13 PM

Quote:

The differences between men and hobbits aren't as far off as those separating say a Numenorien from a (and forgive my diction) "lesser man" of Middle Earth

But Hobbits aren't the ideal of Illuvatar as listed in the third theme. Oh well, you're all probably right, but it bothers me.

Scott · 06-02-2003, 11:13 PM

But Beren, aren't Hobbits the ideal creatures Iluvatar would have wanted to make?

Just a question... [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Aredhel Idril Telcontar · 06-03-2003, 08:50 AM

People! We're getting off the subject! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
Feanor? He probably is the most gifted of the Children of Illuvatar. I don't include dwarves in that, or hobbits. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
Though maybe someone has been born who is probably more gifted than him... either Elf or Human... I think it's possible.
I really wish Tolkien had stated whether hobbits are Eru's children or not...

Helkahothion · 06-03-2003, 11:21 AM

Still difficult though. The Nauglimir made by the Naugrim, was made all by themselve, while the Silmarill's contained the light of the two trees of Valinor. So he had something that was not purely his.

So what I wonder is: If Ungoliant would not have killed of those trees, would the juwels of Fëanor be as special as after the death of the trees? Was it possible that other juwels like these were made if the light was kept save?

Suilad,

Anuion

WarBringer · 06-03-2003, 06:52 PM

I dont think that is possible, because in the Simarillion Tolkein says that nothing like the Silmarills will ever again be made.

Helkahothion · 06-04-2003, 04:53 AM

Yes, but no one could remake them since the light that they held was destroyed by Ungoliant. So that is easy talking.

Aule · 06-04-2003, 07:05 AM

I don't think that Feanor was greater than Aule as he was Valar. Therefore he would have all the knowledge from Eru's mind concerning the materials of ME.
But certainly Feanor was the greatest in skill of all the children of Illuvatar and his adopted children.

Although the Dwarves i think were stil better craftsmen than any of the Noldor (except Feanor of course)as they were the children of Aule and would therefore have been taught as much of the knowledge that he was allowed to give.

If the Elves were the greatest of the Children of Illuvatar, what were men better than Elves at. As far as i know, the only thing that Men had that Elves didn't was their ability to control their own fate and not Tarry in the Halls of Mandos but escape beyond the world. Is there anything that Men especially the Numenorians that non of the Elves could beat them at.
It can't be sailing surely as the Teleri would beat them. Crafting = Noldor beat them
Wisdom & Song = Vanyar

Scott · 06-04-2003, 10:53 PM

I would think that the fact that the race of men weren't bound to their world forever was the greatest gift, or one up so to speak, that they could have over the elves. One might also say that the spirit, or rigor and bravery (if nothing more, mostly foolish) that men possessed is a gift greater than the indecision most elves possessed. The quote does read, "Go not to the elves for council, for they will say both no and yes." And the bravery shown by Beren and Hurin, in my opinion, has yet to be matched by any elf (though I guess you could throw Fingolfin into the mix to liven things up for the side of the eldar).

~Scott

Aule · 06-05-2003, 06:11 AM

I suppose the them no being bound to ME is a good gify, but its not something they could laud over the Elves.
The brevery of men was a good thing, but its just one aginst so many elven qualities.
The only people that came close to anything Elven were the Numenorians.
I wonder, was the smith craft and shipbuilding in any way close to, or even surpassing the Noldor, Teleri. Cause the Eldar did teach them a lot, plus in there long years of life they must have learnt a great deal by themselves.

**The Saucepan Man** · 06-05-2003, 06:41 AM

Quote:

If the Elves were the greatest of the Children of Illuvatar, what were men better than Elves at.

Well, the Noldor of the First Age would have laughed at any suggestion that Men were in some way superior to them. Although they befriended the three Houses of the Edain and gave them lands, they clearly regarded themselves as superior. Note that the lands which the Noldor gave to Men were to be ruled by them as feifdoms rather than in their own right. Witness also the (in my view shameful) use by Elves of Hador, his sons, and of course his grandsons, Hurin and Huor, basically as cannon fodder to cover their safe retreats.

Of course, what the Elves failed to grasp was that their physical and mental superiority did not necessarily make them the more important race. Indeed, it is Man who inherits Middle Earth, and it is in this regard that I see Man as being superior to the Elves. Middle Earth ultimately belongs to Man and the Elves were simply there to protect (ha!) and guide them, and then to make way for them.

Finwe · 06-05-2003, 08:48 AM

Well, I think that when they are talking about skill, they mean craftsmanship. And I still think that Fëanor was the greatest Elf ever, even greater than Galadriel. I mean, he had the looks, the charisma, the craftsmanship, and the oratory skills. What else could you ask for in an Elf?

Morwen Tindomerel · 06-05-2003, 09:06 AM

A little humilty, or at least a sense of proportion? A sense of humor wouldn't have hurt either.

I have always thought of Feanor as ME's Leonardo da Vinci. In the HoME it even mentions that Feanor, like da Vinci, rarely finished a project, (brilliant mind but the attention span of a six year old [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img])

As for the Elves being 'greater' than Men, define what you mean by great. Elves may have greater beauty and skill of hand but Eru gave Men the power to change the Music, power over fate itself.

The Elves are bound within Arda, body, mind and soul, but Men can transcend it. Men alone have the power to heal the Marring of Arda, (if they will use it to that end) and not just heal it but enrich it. That sounds pretty great to me.

[ June 05, 2003: Message edited by: Morwen Tindomerel ]

06-02-2003, 01:24 PM	#1
WarBringer Wight Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Wandering The North Posts: 184	Feanor's skill Feanor's skill was said to be greatest among elves-but how about other races of beings? Does anyone disagree with Feanor having the greatest skill of all non-divine beings? (You'll have to forgive my post riding-im in college and returning after a long absense) __________________ Fortune Favors the Bold...

06-02-2003, 01:49 PM	#3
WarBringer Wight Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Wandering The North Posts: 184	thats a tough one- i personally dont think so, although maybe there was once a union between men and dwarfs... __________________ Fortune Favors the Bold...

06-02-2003, 10:03 PM	#7
Scott Wight Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Ohio/Grey Havens Posts: 183	I think the word species is a bit too narrow for the question. I don't know if I'm getting at inferring the use of the word genus, or anything... honestly, I've been away from any biology texts for too long to infer such a thing. I do think however, that hobbits would have to be counted as men. The differences between men and hobbits aren't as far off as those separating say a Numenorien from a (and forgive my diction) "lesser man" of Middle Earth. And without trying to throw the race card into this, I see the difference as being similar to that of being a Scotsman versus being from China. Maybe more appropriately, a Haradrim versus a farmer in Rohan. And, although I did see the warning against such a post, I think it would be quite a nice... umm... debate, on whether or not the dwarves were better craftsmen than Feanor was. I personally don't think so, but there may be some Gimli fans out there who could bring up some very swaying evidence - the Nauglamir, for example. __________________ Those who the Gods would destroy, They first make mad. ~Those Crazy Greeks

06-02-2003, 11:13 PM	#9
Scott Wight Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Ohio/Grey Havens Posts: 183	But Beren, aren't Hobbits the ideal creatures Iluvatar would have wanted to make? Just a question... [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ Those who the Gods would destroy, They first make mad. ~Those Crazy Greeks

06-03-2003, 08:50 AM	#10
Aredhel Idril Telcontar Wight Join Date: May 2003 Location: Hanging on a sheer cliff with Maedhros Posts: 113	People! We're getting off the subject! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Feanor? He probably is the most gifted of the Children of Illuvatar. I don't include dwarves in that, or hobbits. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Though maybe someone has been born who is probably more gifted than him... either Elf or Human... I think it's possible. I really wish Tolkien had stated whether hobbits are Eru's children or not... __________________ "I am your sister and not your servant, and beyond your bounds I will go as seems good to me." Tai uzdaryk mane Tevyne savyje/kaip giesme gerkleje mirtis uzdaro/ ir kaip uzdaro vakara naktis/ o Tu man atsakai: as Tavo laisve

06-02-2003, 01:41 PM	#2
the guy who be short Shadowed Prince Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Thulcandra Posts: 2,343	Well, the elves had the most skill out of all the races. (We could have a long discussion here people. Let's not!) So yes, i think that Feanor was the most gifted of all the Children of Iluvatar... and children of Melkor... and Aule... and hobbits. Now theres a question! Were hobbits children of Iluvatar? Welcome back, War Bringer.

06-03-2003, 11:21 AM	#11
Helkahothion Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: The inside of Legolas' lungs Posts: 1,005	Still difficult though. The Nauglimir made by the Naugrim, was made all by themselve, while the Silmarill's contained the light of the two trees of Valinor. So he had something that was not purely his. So what I wonder is: If Ungoliant would not have killed of those trees, would the juwels of Fëanor be as special as after the death of the trees? Was it possible that other juwels like these were made if the light was kept save? Suilad, Anuion

06-03-2003, 06:52 PM	#12
WarBringer Wight Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Wandering The North Posts: 184	I dont think that is possible, because in the Simarillion Tolkein says that nothing like the Silmarills will ever again be made. __________________ Fortune Favors the Bold...

06-04-2003, 04:53 AM	#13
Helkahothion Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: The inside of Legolas' lungs Posts: 1,005	Yes, but no one could remake them since the light that they held was destroyed by Ungoliant. So that is easy talking.

06-04-2003, 07:05 AM	#14
Aule Wight Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hammering away in Valinor Posts: 126	I don't think that Feanor was greater than Aule as he was Valar. Therefore he would have all the knowledge from Eru's mind concerning the materials of ME. But certainly Feanor was the greatest in skill of all the children of Illuvatar and his adopted children. Although the Dwarves i think were stil better craftsmen than any of the Noldor (except Feanor of course)as they were the children of Aule and would therefore have been taught as much of the knowledge that he was allowed to give. If the Elves were the greatest of the Children of Illuvatar, what were men better than Elves at. As far as i know, the only thing that Men had that Elves didn't was their ability to control their own fate and not Tarry in the Halls of Mandos but escape beyond the world. Is there anything that Men especially the Numenorians that non of the Elves could beat them at. It can't be sailing surely as the Teleri would beat them. Crafting = Noldor beat them Wisdom & Song = Vanyar __________________ For him that is pitiless, the deeds of pity are ever strange and beyond reckoning - of Melkor before his final downfall

06-04-2003, 10:53 PM	#15
Scott Wight Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Ohio/Grey Havens Posts: 183	I would think that the fact that the race of men weren't bound to their world forever was the greatest gift, or one up so to speak, that they could have over the elves. One might also say that the spirit, or rigor and bravery (if nothing more, mostly foolish) that men possessed is a gift greater than the indecision most elves possessed. The quote does read, "Go not to the elves for council, for they will say both no and yes." And the bravery shown by Beren and Hurin, in my opinion, has yet to be matched by any elf (though I guess you could throw Fingolfin into the mix to liven things up for the side of the eldar). ~Scott __________________ Those who the Gods would destroy, They first make mad. ~Those Crazy Greeks

06-05-2003, 06:11 AM	#16
Aule Wight Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hammering away in Valinor Posts: 126	I suppose the them no being bound to ME is a good gify, but its not something they could laud over the Elves. The brevery of men was a good thing, but its just one aginst so many elven qualities. The only people that came close to anything Elven were the Numenorians. I wonder, was the smith craft and shipbuilding in any way close to, or even surpassing the Noldor, Teleri. Cause the Eldar did teach them a lot, plus in there long years of life they must have learnt a great deal by themselves. __________________ For him that is pitiless, the deeds of pity are ever strange and beyond reckoning - of Melkor before his final downfall

06-05-2003, 08:48 AM	#18
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	Well, I think that when they are talking about skill, they mean craftsmanship. And I still think that Fëanor was the greatest Elf ever, even greater than Galadriel. I mean, he had the looks, the charisma, the craftsmanship, and the oratory skills. What else could you ask for in an Elf? __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

06-05-2003, 09:06 AM	#19
Morwen Tindomerel Wight Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Minas Anor or Annuminas the Golden Posts: 187	A little humilty, or at least a sense of proportion? A sense of humor wouldn't have hurt either. I have always thought of Feanor as ME's Leonardo da Vinci. In the HoME it even mentions that Feanor, like da Vinci, rarely finished a project, (brilliant mind but the attention span of a six year old [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]) As for the Elves being 'greater' than Men, define what you mean by great. Elves may have greater beauty and skill of hand but Eru gave Men the power to change the Music, power over fate itself. The Elves are bound within Arda, body, mind and soul, but Men can transcend it. Men alone have the power to heal the Marring of Arda, (if they will use it to that end) and not just heal it but enrich it. That sounds pretty great to me. [ June 05, 2003: Message edited by: Morwen Tindomerel ]