About the Breaking - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Aredhel Idril Telcontar · 05-31-2003, 07:26 AM

When Ar-Pharazon attacked Valinor the counterstroke was the Breaking. When I read Akallabeth (sp?), it was written that Eru somehow changed the universe i.e. made Arda round and transported Valinor *somewhere else*. When the last Elven ship left Middle Earth, Valinor disappeared to another dimention and the *modern universe* appeared.
I figured that meant, that the earth started turning around the sun (Arien) and all the planets etc. appeared.
In Sil it was written that the Earth (Arda) was the place where the Children of Illuvatar lived. That must mean there were no other planets with possible lifeforms, and probably no other planets at all.
Did it all change in the F.A.? Does anyone have a theory on this? Did the whole Universe (Ea) change dramatically, or was it all there in the first place?
Whew... That was long... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Amarie of the Vanyar · 05-31-2003, 10:15 AM

I have always thought of Arda having two meanings: the wider meaning as the Solar System and the more restricitive one as the Earth.

In the beginning, the Ainulindalë the Earth (also called Arda) and the rest of planets are created. I don't know the exact shape of the rest of planets but I suppose they were round from the beginning. At this moment the Earth was flat.
At the end of the Age of the Trees, the Sun and the Moon are created from the last fruits of the Trees. The Earth remains flat.

At the end of the Second age of the Sun, Eru changes the chape of the Earth, making it round, separating Aman and sending it to another dimension, where only elves can arrive.

Whether the Sun turns around the Earth or the Earth turns around the Sun is only a relative question: it depends on the reference system you are using. Of course, equations are easier if your origin of coordinates is set on the Sun. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Tolkien, in his later writings, tried to change all the previous mithology of the flat Earth to a round Earth mithology, but he didn't finish this second conception, and personlly, I prefer the flat Earth stories: I love the Trees! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Dancing_Hobbit · 05-31-2003, 07:13 PM

only a small point, but i would think that if one planet was flat they would all be. also, if there were other planets created, why would everything be focused around one of them? i would guess that only the one planet was created at first, and the others were created after the Earth was made round.

Amarie of the Vanyar · 06-01-2003, 03:18 AM

In the Silmarillion it is said:

Quote:

she [Varda] made new stars and brighter against the coming of the Firstborn [...] Carnil and Luinil, Nénar and Lumbar, Alcarinquë and Elemmírë she wrought in that time
Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor

And in HoME 10, 'Morgoth's Ring'; it is stated that:
Alcarinquë is Jupiter; Carnil is Mars; Lumbar is Saturn; Elemmírë is Mercury; Nénar is probably Uranus; and Luinil is Neptune; and Eärendil is Venus

Therefore, the planets of the Solar System existed before the drowning of Númenor; before the Sun and the Moon, but were created after the creation of the Earth
[img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[ June 01, 2003: Message edited by: Amarie of the Vanyar ]

Aredhel Idril Telcontar · 06-01-2003, 05:38 AM

I've never had the chance to read the HoME [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] , so I guess I don't know some things... But I'll fix that as soon as I have the chance [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

05-31-2003, 07:26 AM	#1
Aredhel Idril Telcontar Wight Join Date: May 2003 Location: Hanging on a sheer cliff with Maedhros Posts: 113	About the Breaking When Ar-Pharazon attacked Valinor the counterstroke was the Breaking. When I read Akallabeth (sp?), it was written that Eru somehow changed the universe i.e. made Arda round and transported Valinor somewhere else. When the last Elven ship left Middle Earth, Valinor disappeared to another dimention and the modern universe appeared. I figured that meant, that the earth started turning around the sun (Arien) and all the planets etc. appeared. In Sil it was written that the Earth (Arda) was the place where the Children of Illuvatar lived. That must mean there were no other planets with possible lifeforms, and probably no other planets at all. Did it all change in the F.A.? Does anyone have a theory on this? Did the whole Universe (Ea) change dramatically, or was it all there in the first place? Whew... That was long... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ "I am your sister and not your servant, and beyond your bounds I will go as seems good to me." Tai uzdaryk mane Tevyne savyje/kaip giesme gerkleje mirtis uzdaro/ ir kaip uzdaro vakara naktis/ o Tu man atsakai: as Tavo laisve

05-31-2003, 10:15 AM	#2
Amarie of the Vanyar Wight Join Date: May 2003 Location: Valinor Posts: 215	I have always thought of Arda having two meanings: the wider meaning as the Solar System and the more restricitive one as the Earth. In the beginning, the Ainulindalë the Earth (also called Arda) and the rest of planets are created. I don't know the exact shape of the rest of planets but I suppose they were round from the beginning. At this moment the Earth was flat. At the end of the Age of the Trees, the Sun and the Moon are created from the last fruits of the Trees. The Earth remains flat. At the end of the Second age of the Sun, Eru changes the chape of the Earth, making it round, separating Aman and sending it to another dimension, where only elves can arrive. Whether the Sun turns around the Earth or the Earth turns around the Sun is only a relative question: it depends on the reference system you are using. Of course, equations are easier if your origin of coordinates is set on the Sun. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Tolkien, in his later writings, tried to change all the previous mithology of the flat Earth to a round Earth mithology, but he didn't finish this second conception, and personlly, I prefer the flat Earth stories: I love the Trees! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ But it is said that not until that hour had such cold thoughts ruled Finrod; for indeed she whom he had loved was Amarië of the Vanyar, and she went not with him into exile.

05-31-2003, 07:13 PM	#3
Dancing_Hobbit Haunting Spirit Join Date: May 2003 Location: A fairyland of mists and shadows deep in the emerald wood. Posts: 56	only a small point, but i would think that if one planet was flat they would all be. also, if there were other planets created, why would everything be focused around one of them? i would guess that only the one planet was created at first, and the others were created after the Earth was made round. __________________ Hobbits bow to nobody! ...Except their plates...

06-01-2003, 05:38 AM	#5
Aredhel Idril Telcontar Wight Join Date: May 2003 Location: Hanging on a sheer cliff with Maedhros Posts: 113	I've never had the chance to read the HoME [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] , so I guess I don't know some things... But I'll fix that as soon as I have the chance [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ "I am your sister and not your servant, and beyond your bounds I will go as seems good to me." Tai uzdaryk mane Tevyne savyje/kaip giesme gerkleje mirtis uzdaro/ ir kaip uzdaro vakara naktis/ o Tu man atsakai: as Tavo laisve