morgoth - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

dwarfwarrior · 05-26-2003, 05:56 PM

does anyone think that morgoth rose again in a later age?

elven maiden Earwen · 05-26-2003, 05:58 PM

In the end of the Lost Tales I think Tolkien had written that he rose again, but that nevere happened.

I don't think he did, but always a new type of evil could come.

Finwe · 05-26-2003, 06:05 PM

I don't think he did, because he was cast out into the Void. Later on, "when the guard of the Valar sleeps," he will come back into Arda, and start trying that old take-over-the-world ploy. That is when the Dagor Dagorath "Battle of Battles" will be fought on the plain of Valinor, and Morgoth will be forever vanquished and killed by the sword of Turin Turambar, and all the spirits of Elves and Men will be released from their respective "holding pens" to aid in the fight.

Iarwain · 05-26-2003, 06:43 PM

Hehe. My first two threads were on exactly this topic. The Dagor Dagorath: the final battle. It talks a good deal about Melkor's return in the Unfinished Tales. If you want the results of my query, look up "Morgoth's Return" or "Anyone for a Good Debate"

Really, this idea fascinates me. I really wish Tolkien could have written the final bit of history.

Iarwain

Yavanna228 · 05-26-2003, 07:27 PM

I haven't read enough of Tolkien's works to formulate my own concrete opinions about Morgoth's return, but reading Iarwain's early threads make me tend to think that Morgoth will return at the 'end' of the world.
On a different, but maybe related note, in reply to Iarwain saying that he wished Tolkien would have definitively ended the history of ME, I wonder if Tolkien left it undone purposely, so that we could imagine the end, and in imagining it, make it more our own? Also, could Tolkien have left it undone to say something to the effect of "Here's what happened so far. What are you going to do with it?" Are we going to be on the side of 'good' or 'evil'? I think that if Tolkien hadn't left the history open-ended, it would be harder to be engaged in it because the characters would seem less sentient. It's like how a person in one of the threads said that once a book goes to press the characters are 'dead', but when the book is still being written, the characters are more 'alive.' When the history is still in the making, and not closed off, it seems more alive to us.
I'm probably way off, but those are my thoughts. Hope it's understandable and that I didn't completely defeat the purpose of the thread. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
Peace

Finwe · 05-26-2003, 07:45 PM

I agree with you. In the Ainulindalë, it says that Eru ended the vision of Arda right at the Passing of the Elves and the beginning of the Dominion of Men. So even the Valar cannot see all ends. Perhaps even they're in the same situation that we are, not knowing how exactly it is going to turn out.

Iarwain · 05-26-2003, 07:47 PM

No, Yavanna, I think you're right: that was probably part of the joy (and obsession) in rewriting that Tolkien had. It still bothers me just a tad that someone could still write a conclusion to Middle-Earth. Just the thought of how wonderful that conculsion could be makes me very, well, wistful. I wish Tolkien were still alive.

Iarwain

drigel · 05-27-2003, 09:04 AM

I think his whole point was to not have an end. I think the "end" was when the ages started to pass, and mortals never again laid eyes on elves, and the last worm was slain.

Helkahothion · 06-03-2003, 11:39 AM

Now that we are discussing Morgoth: Why did Ilúvatar not just destroy him or call him back from earth? Would be easy for him to do it right? It would have saved the people of Ëa a lot of trouble.

Nils · 06-03-2003, 01:04 PM

Why did Ilúvatar not just destroy him or call him back from earth?

The Music had to become reality. The Music was tainted by Morgoth, so Ea too had to be marred.

Would be easy for him to do it right? It would have saved the people of Ëa a lot of trouble.

This is what the Silmarillion says about the third theme:

Quote:

Then again Iluvatar arose, and the Ainur perceived that his countenance was stern; and he lifted up his right hand and behold! A third theme grew amid the confusion, and it was unlike the others. For it seemed at first soft and sweet, a mere rippling of gentle sounds in delicate melodies; but it could not be quenched and it took to itself power and profundity. And it seemed at last that there were two musics progressing at one time before the seat of Iluvatar, and they were utterly at variance. The one was deep and wide and beautiful, but slow and blended with an immeasurable sorrow from which its beauty chiefly came. The other had now achieved a unity of its own; but it was loud, and vain, and endlessly repeated; and it had little harmony but rather a clamorous union as of many trumpets braying upon a few notes. And it essayed to drown the other music by the violence of its voice, but it seemed that its most triumphant notes were taken by the other and woven into its own solemn pattern.

The result was a marred creation. Evil did exist, but it helped to create something more beautiful.

I believe a comment made by Mandos to Manwe also answers the question about why evil was allowed

Quote:

'Dear-bought those songs shall be accounted, and yet shall be well-bought. For the price could be no other. Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Ea, and evil yet be good to have been.' But Mandos said, 'And yet remain evil. To me shall Feanor come soon.'

05-26-2003, 05:56 PM	#1
dwarfwarrior Pile O'Bones Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 11	morgoth does anyone think that morgoth rose again in a later age?

05-26-2003, 05:58 PM	#2
elven maiden Earwen Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A world that never was and never will be Posts: 1,300	In the end of the Lost Tales I think Tolkien had written that he rose again, but that nevere happened. I don't think he did, but always a new type of evil could come. __________________ We pillage and plunder, we rifle and loot, Drink up me hearties, Yo Ho. the looniest site in the world!!!

05-26-2003, 06:05 PM	#3
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	I don't think he did, because he was cast out into the Void. Later on, "when the guard of the Valar sleeps," he will come back into Arda, and start trying that old take-over-the-world ploy. That is when the Dagor Dagorath "Battle of Battles" will be fought on the plain of Valinor, and Morgoth will be forever vanquished and killed by the sword of Turin Turambar, and all the spirits of Elves and Men will be released from their respective "holding pens" to aid in the fight. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

05-26-2003, 06:43 PM	#4
Iarwain Pugnaciously Primordial Paradox Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Birnham Wood Posts: 800	Hehe. My first two threads were on exactly this topic. The Dagor Dagorath: the final battle. It talks a good deal about Melkor's return in the Unfinished Tales. If you want the results of my query, look up "Morgoth's Return" or "Anyone for a Good Debate" Really, this idea fascinates me. I really wish Tolkien could have written the final bit of history. Iarwain __________________ "And what are oaths but words we say to God?"

05-26-2003, 07:27 PM	#5
Yavanna228 Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2003 Location: on the wings of the morning Posts: 394	I haven't read enough of Tolkien's works to formulate my own concrete opinions about Morgoth's return, but reading Iarwain's early threads make me tend to think that Morgoth will return at the 'end' of the world. On a different, but maybe related note, in reply to Iarwain saying that he wished Tolkien would have definitively ended the history of ME, I wonder if Tolkien left it undone purposely, so that we could imagine the end, and in imagining it, make it more our own? Also, could Tolkien have left it undone to say something to the effect of "Here's what happened so far. What are you going to do with it?" Are we going to be on the side of 'good' or 'evil'? I think that if Tolkien hadn't left the history open-ended, it would be harder to be engaged in it because the characters would seem less sentient. It's like how a person in one of the threads said that once a book goes to press the characters are 'dead', but when the book is still being written, the characters are more 'alive.' When the history is still in the making, and not closed off, it seems more alive to us. I'm probably way off, but those are my thoughts. Hope it's understandable and that I didn't completely defeat the purpose of the thread. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Peace __________________ 'Dulaman na Binne Bui, Dulaman Gaelach/ Dulaman na farraige, 's e b'fhearr a bhi in Eirinn!'

05-26-2003, 07:45 PM	#6
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	I agree with you. In the Ainulindalë, it says that Eru ended the vision of Arda right at the Passing of the Elves and the beginning of the Dominion of Men. So even the Valar cannot see all ends. Perhaps even they're in the same situation that we are, not knowing how exactly it is going to turn out. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

05-26-2003, 07:47 PM	#7
Iarwain Pugnaciously Primordial Paradox Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Birnham Wood Posts: 800	No, Yavanna, I think you're right: that was probably part of the joy (and obsession) in rewriting that Tolkien had. It still bothers me just a tad that someone could still write a conclusion to Middle-Earth. Just the thought of how wonderful that conculsion could be makes me very, well, wistful. I wish Tolkien were still alive. Iarwain __________________ "And what are oaths but words we say to God?"

05-27-2003, 09:04 AM	#8
drigel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: commonplace city Posts: 518	I think his whole point was to not have an end. I think the "end" was when the ages started to pass, and mortals never again laid eyes on elves, and the last worm was slain.

06-03-2003, 11:39 AM	#9
Helkahothion Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: The inside of Legolas' lungs Posts: 1,005	Now that we are discussing Morgoth: Why did Ilúvatar not just destroy him or call him back from earth? Would be easy for him to do it right? It would have saved the people of Ëa a lot of trouble.