Why didn't Frodo use the eagles to fly over Mt. Doom? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

QN_VICTORIA · 01-19-2004, 10:45 PM

Hey all you Lord of the Ring readers, I was just wondering um, why didn't Frodo use the eagles to fly over Mt. Doom to destroy the ring?....would'nt that have been much easier, and quicker...or maybe he couldn't, but if someone could tell me why, I would be most grateful...and this is probably already a thread so if anyone could set the link that would help as well...thanks [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

[edited to name the thread properly. Sharkû]

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 5:37 AM January 20, 2004: Message edited by: Sharkû ]

Estelyn Telcontar · 01-20-2004, 01:56 AM

Welcome to the Downs, QN_VICTORIA! You've thought of something quite logical, and the easiest answer is: If Frodo had done that, we wouldn't be here discussing the book today! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] However, there have been good discussions on this question, and I'll be happy to show you the one I consider best:
The Great Eagle Mystery. Enjoy!

Maverick · 01-22-2004, 06:46 PM

I think if Frodo had tried that the Nazgul would have flown over and killed the eagle with ease. Then all would be lost cause then the Nazgul have the ring.

QN_VICTORIA · 01-22-2004, 07:59 PM

Well that's true but there were also plenty of other eagles..Legolas, Gandalf, Aragorn, Gimli could rode the others to keep Frodo safe, I'm sure they could've set up a buddy system or something.... [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Eothain Elfwine · 01-23-2004, 08:35 PM

The eagles are entities in their own rights, not taxis. Perhaps like Elves they have their own worries and issues. Perhaps like Radagast they rarely come to that area of the world. On the whole they choose to do what they do when they do it. And probably flying a little creature called Frodo to the Dark Land was not one of the things they chose to do. Though they did pick him up afterward . . .

**The Saucepan Man** · 01-23-2004, 11:13 PM

This is the first question that I asked when I joined the Downs. Yes, even some of us mods (or one of us at least) failed to spot the search function when we first joined. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

The thread that Esty linked to has a lot of interesting thoughts, and is quite fun too. But I think that the issue is still open to debate. I've never bought this idea that the Eagles were reluctant to get involved in the affairs of the Free Peoples. After all, they helped out when it was really necessary. And it was rather necessary that the Ring be destroyed.

Of course, even if the Eagles had flown Frodo over Mount Doom, he couldn't have thrown the Ring in. He would have succumbed to it the same way that he did at Sammath Naur. And an Eagle bearing the Ring couldn't have dropped it in either, since no Ringbearer could willingly have destroyed it (unless they got Tom Bombadil to so it, but he wasn't interested).

So perhaps they could have dropped Frodo in, Ring and all. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

But if that had been the plan of the Wise, would they really have been any better than Sauron?

A better plan would have been to capture an Orc, give the Ring to him and then throw him in. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Seriously, I think that the answer is that the Eagles wouldn't have made it to Mount Doom. But would the Nazgul really have been able to stop a fleet of Eagles?

Lhunardawen · 01-24-2004, 02:44 AM

Quote:

But would the Nazgul really have been able to stop a fleet of Eagles?

Not to degrade the Eagles, but somehow I think not. There hasn't been a chance to show what would happen when the Nazgul and the Eagles fight in midair because just as the Eagles arrived, the Nazgul were summoned by Sauron because of Frodo and the Ring. But if they had stayed in the battlefront, they could have defeated the Eagles because they had weapons, and not just fear and despair, which I am quite sure would not work on the Eagles. Or maybe not.

Forgive me for this may be a little out of topic, but I really want to know if the Eagles are Maiar as Thorondor is. Are they? Because if they are, I take back my opinion above.

-The White Lady of Lindon-

the real findorfin · 01-24-2004, 03:09 AM

Has anyone ever suggested that the Eagles are Manwe's subjects, and as such cannot undertake the problems of Middle Earth directly. Like the Istari, they can help out when necessary, but they are not allowed to do all the work.

This would explain why they do the things they do, and equally explain the things they do not do.

The Perky Ent · 01-24-2004, 11:13 AM

I've been thinking about that theroy about flying over Mt. Doom and just dropping the ring ever since I saw ROTK. Perhaps a army of Fell Beast would take them down. It was probably the risk of dropping it that would have disencouraged this idea. Eagles are very noble, and probably don't want to go flying over Mt. Doom.

Ashton · 01-28-2004, 05:54 PM

The Eagles don't really want to be Involved in all this at all. They only show up in the books when they are needed but not much more. They show up mostly when Gandalf is in need of help. I do believe that Ganalf healed The "Lord Eagle" from an arrow wound. The Lord Eagle said in The Hobbit (In a way) that they like to help, If they don't put themselves at risk by doing it. I think this is the reason that they don't take Frodo over Mt. Doom.

Gorwingel · 01-31-2004, 01:54 AM

Quote:

The Lord Eagle said in The Hobbit (In a way) that they like to help, if they don't put themselves at risk by doing it.

Well that would make sense...

My personal opinion is that flying Frodo over to Mt. Doom on an Eagle would just not be secretive enough. Weren't the Fell Beasts basically equals of the Eagles because they were created by Morgoth to be a mockery of the Eagles? If there was a fleet of Eagles heading right straight towards Mordor, I think the Nazgul would have noticed it pretty quickly. But then this takes me to another question... Who was more powerful? Were the Fell Beasts more powerful because they had the Nazgul on their backs? Were the Eagles more powerful because they were good, and could think more for themselves than the Fell Beasts? Could the Fell Beasts have easily taken the Eagles down?

Maybe the Eagles were just afraid?

Angry Brandybuck · 01-31-2004, 06:12 AM

I hate to be a 'party pooper' but any reason anyone comes up with for the Eagles' lack of involvment is no more than an excuse. Tolkien included them as a Deus Ex Machina. It was the only way certain things could get done in the book.

On the other hand, I think an Eagle could probably take on a Fell Beast, the ability to 'go into stoop' or whatever its called would give it an average attack speed of 100km/h or soemthing. This is an ability the serpentine Fell Beasts would not have.

However, this couldn't have happened if they were carrying someone/something. Birds are very well balanced creatures and adding more weight would make it harder for them to fly, maybe?

As for flying over Mt Doom and just dropping It in. Have you seen the amount of smoke and fire that comes out the top of an active volcano when erupting? No eagle could fly over the top of that low enough to be able to drop a ring accuratley into the crater. The thermals alone would stop the Eagle flying too low over the Mountain.

Kransha · 01-31-2004, 07:19 AM

Eagles, similar to Gandalf, are not people (or in this case birds) who intervene all the time. They are not legal citizens who would ally with man.

First, the only reasons the eagles came to Morannon in the first place was because Gwaihir, chief eagle, owed Gandalf a favor. They were not planning to help win the war and tried to stay as neutral as possible, even though they did hope the side of light would be victorious. The eagles wouldn't have been willing to play such a crucial role, since this was a war of man, not a war of Middle-Earth vs. Mordor. They had rights as sentient citizens of Arda and would not just take Frodo all the way.

Secondly, as someone else said, that wouldn't help all that much. Even though the journey would be easier, the job wouldn't be. If the eagles carried Frodo, man would not unite under Elessar. What about the great uruk-hai hosts? What about the evil men of the south and west? What about Sauron. If Frodo got to Mount Doom without affecting the rest of the world in any way, who cares if he gets the ring in or not? Sauron might be destroyed, but his armies would destroy everything with nothing to stand in their way. Plus, no last stand of men outside the Black Gate to distract Sauron while Frodo made his final decision. But, most importantly, NO SAM AND GOLLUM! If Frodo could just fly, no one would need to come with him except other eagles (even good warriors can't fight very well on birds' backs). Sam was Frodo's voice of reason, without which he would succumb before he reached Mordor, and Gollum was the device to destroy the ring, since his giddy dancing ended up doing the job just fine.

dragoneyes · 01-31-2004, 07:24 AM

To continue on from what Angry Brandybuck just said, dropping Frodo off near Mt. Doom would require the eagle to land and, not being the smallest of creatures, they would probably have a hoarde of orcs waiting below them, shooting arrows etc.

On the fell beast/eagle subject, then if the nazgul had some long range weapons then I doubt the eagles would have too much of a chance, a couple of firey arrows could probably bring an eagle down, it might not be killed, but a bird can't fly without its feathers.

The eagles were just completely against the whole secrecy tactic, not to meantion you'd have to do a whole lot more than just heal an arrow wound to persuade them to agree.

mark12_30 · 01-31-2004, 08:08 AM

Although I think The Real Findorfin hit on the most important point here (the Eagles are servants of Manwe first and foremost) I also consider control of the airspace the tactical/ strategic key here. The old (WWII) saw is, if you control the airspace you control the war. From Barad-Dur, Sauron had a clear view of his whole domain's airspace; and he had nine Nazgul who flew according to his whim. To send an eagle (or thirty) into that airspace would have been handing the Ring to Sauron on a feathery platter.

camomile · 01-31-2004, 08:47 AM

Tolkien had a tendancy to use the egals as a Deus-Ex Machena(sp) (machine of the gods)this makes sence concidering the fact they they where servents of the Manwe. they came to the rescue in the most deperite houre in every story they are a part of. (twice in the hobbit, once to rescue thorin and Co. from the goblins, and again when the battle of five armies reached its most desperate houre. and once in LOTR when the armies of the free people of middle earth faced imosibible odd at the gate of Mordor) it seams to me that the eagles role was that of a guardinan of MI to be called on only when things where most bleaqe. I think they where the most direct intervention of the gods thet was permitted. and used only after all of the efforts of the people of MI had faild.
just my thoughts on the issue.
chears.

TheSquireof Aragorn · 01-31-2004, 07:20 PM

It was mentioned before that the Eagles would likely be killed by the Nazgul if they were to fly into Mordor, but the Eagles could have perhaps dropped them off some where even if they only took them to Lorien.

I believe that the Eagles didn't fly the Fellowship anywhere because if they had LOTR wouldn't be LOTR.

01-19-2004, 10:45 PM	#1
QN_VICTORIA Pile O'Bones Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: unknown Posts: 20	Why didn't Frodo use the eagles to fly over Mt. Doom? Hey all you Lord of the Ring readers, I was just wondering um, why didn't Frodo use the eagles to fly over Mt. Doom to destroy the ring?....would'nt that have been much easier, and quicker...or maybe he couldn't, but if someone could tell me why, I would be most grateful...and this is probably already a thread so if anyone could set the link that would help as well...thanks [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] [edited to name the thread properly. Sharkû] <font size=1 color=339966>[ 5:37 AM January 20, 2004: Message edited by: Sharkû ] __________________ I can avoid being seen if I wish

01-20-2004, 01:56 AM	#2
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	Welcome to the Downs, QN_VICTORIA! You've thought of something quite logical, and the easiest answer is: If Frodo had done that, we wouldn't be here discussing the book today! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] However, there have been good discussions on this question, and I'll be happy to show you the one I consider best: The Great Eagle Mystery. Enjoy! __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

01-22-2004, 07:59 PM	#4
QN_VICTORIA Pile O'Bones Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: unknown Posts: 20	Well that's true but there were also plenty of other eagles..Legolas, Gandalf, Aragorn, Gimli could rode the others to keep Frodo safe, I'm sure they could've set up a buddy system or something.... [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ I can avoid being seen if I wish

01-23-2004, 08:35 PM	#5
Eothain Elfwine Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Plains of Rohan Posts: 38	The eagles are entities in their own rights, not taxis. Perhaps like Elves they have their own worries and issues. Perhaps like Radagast they rarely come to that area of the world. On the whole they choose to do what they do when they do it. And probably flying a little creature called Frodo to the Dark Land was not one of the things they chose to do. Though they did pick him up afterward . . . __________________ I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.

01-23-2004, 11:13 PM	#6
The Saucepan Man Corpus Cacophonous Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 8,390	This is the first question that I asked when I joined the Downs. Yes, even some of us mods (or one of us at least) failed to spot the search function when we first joined. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] The thread that Esty linked to has a lot of interesting thoughts, and is quite fun too. But I think that the issue is still open to debate. I've never bought this idea that the Eagles were reluctant to get involved in the affairs of the Free Peoples. After all, they helped out when it was really necessary. And it was rather necessary that the Ring be destroyed. Of course, even if the Eagles had flown Frodo over Mount Doom, he couldn't have thrown the Ring in. He would have succumbed to it the same way that he did at Sammath Naur. And an Eagle bearing the Ring couldn't have dropped it in either, since no Ringbearer could willingly have destroyed it (unless they got Tom Bombadil to so it, but he wasn't interested). So perhaps they could have dropped Frodo in, Ring and all. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] But if that had been the plan of the Wise, would they really have been any better than Sauron? A better plan would have been to capture an Orc, give the Ring to him and then throw him in. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Seriously, I think that the answer is that the Eagles wouldn't have made it to Mount Doom. But would the Nazgul really have been able to stop a fleet of Eagles? __________________ Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!

01-22-2004, 06:46 PM	#3
Maverick Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 19	I think if Frodo had tried that the Nazgul would have flown over and killed the eagle with ease. Then all would be lost cause then the Nazgul have the ring.

01-24-2004, 03:09 AM	#8
the real findorfin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Mirkwood Posts: 514	Has anyone ever suggested that the Eagles are Manwe's subjects, and as such cannot undertake the problems of Middle Earth directly. Like the Istari, they can help out when necessary, but they are not allowed to do all the work. This would explain why they do the things they do, and equally explain the things they do not do. __________________ Legends of Middle Earth

01-24-2004, 11:13 AM	#9
The Perky Ent Maniacal Mage Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Setting sail for Umbar, with Firefoot at my side! Posts: 3,297	I've been thinking about that theroy about flying over Mt. Doom and just dropping the ring ever since I saw ROTK. Perhaps a army of Fell Beast would take them down. It was probably the risk of dropping it that would have disencouraged this idea. Eagles are very noble, and probably don't want to go flying over Mt. Doom. __________________ 'But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.'

01-28-2004, 05:54 PM	#10
Ashton Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Middle Earth (Where else would I be?) Posts: 33	The Eagles don't really want to be Involved in all this at all. They only show up in the books when they are needed but not much more. They show up mostly when Gandalf is in need of help. I do believe that Ganalf healed The "Lord Eagle" from an arrow wound. The Lord Eagle said in The Hobbit (In a way) that they like to help, If they don't put themselves at risk by doing it. I think this is the reason that they don't take Frodo over Mt. Doom. __________________ Eat, Drink and be Merry......or Pippin.

01-31-2004, 06:12 AM	#12
Angry Brandybuck Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Wotton-on-the-Edge Posts: 86	I hate to be a 'party pooper' but any reason anyone comes up with for the Eagles' lack of involvment is no more than an excuse. Tolkien included them as a Deus Ex Machina. It was the only way certain things could get done in the book. On the other hand, I think an Eagle could probably take on a Fell Beast, the ability to 'go into stoop' or whatever its called would give it an average attack speed of 100km/h or soemthing. This is an ability the serpentine Fell Beasts would not have. However, this couldn't have happened if they were carrying someone/something. Birds are very well balanced creatures and adding more weight would make it harder for them to fly, maybe? As for flying over Mt Doom and just dropping It in. Have you seen the amount of smoke and fire that comes out the top of an active volcano when erupting? No eagle could fly over the top of that low enough to be able to drop a ring accuratley into the crater. The thermals alone would stop the Eagle flying too low over the Mountain. __________________ The pain of war cannot exceed the woe of aftermath, The drums will shake the castle wall, the ring wraiths ride in black, Ride on.

01-31-2004, 07:19 AM	#13
Kransha Ubiquitous Urulóki Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: The port of Mars, where Famine, Sword, and Fire, leash'd in like hounds, crouch for employment Posts: 747	Eagles, similar to Gandalf, are not people (or in this case birds) who intervene all the time. They are not legal citizens who would ally with man. First, the only reasons the eagles came to Morannon in the first place was because Gwaihir, chief eagle, owed Gandalf a favor. They were not planning to help win the war and tried to stay as neutral as possible, even though they did hope the side of light would be victorious. The eagles wouldn't have been willing to play such a crucial role, since this was a war of man, not a war of Middle-Earth vs. Mordor. They had rights as sentient citizens of Arda and would not just take Frodo all the way. Secondly, as someone else said, that wouldn't help all that much. Even though the journey would be easier, the job wouldn't be. If the eagles carried Frodo, man would not unite under Elessar. What about the great uruk-hai hosts? What about the evil men of the south and west? What about Sauron. If Frodo got to Mount Doom without affecting the rest of the world in any way, who cares if he gets the ring in or not? Sauron might be destroyed, but his armies would destroy everything with nothing to stand in their way. Plus, no last stand of men outside the Black Gate to distract Sauron while Frodo made his final decision. But, most importantly, NO SAM AND GOLLUM! If Frodo could just fly, no one would need to come with him except other eagles (even good warriors can't fight very well on birds' backs). Sam was Frodo's voice of reason, without which he would succumb before he reached Mordor, and Gollum was the device to destroy the ring, since his giddy dancing ended up doing the job just fine. __________________ "What mortal feels not awe/Nor trembles at our name, Hearing our fate-appointed power sublime/Fixed by the eternal law. For old our office, and our fame," -Aeschylus, Song of the Furies

01-31-2004, 07:24 AM	#14
dragoneyes Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Completely lost track, sorry! Posts: 733	To continue on from what Angry Brandybuck just said, dropping Frodo off near Mt. Doom would require the eagle to land and, not being the smallest of creatures, they would probably have a hoarde of orcs waiting below them, shooting arrows etc. On the fell beast/eagle subject, then if the nazgul had some long range weapons then I doubt the eagles would have too much of a chance, a couple of firey arrows could probably bring an eagle down, it might not be killed, but a bird can't fly without its feathers. The eagles were just completely against the whole secrecy tactic, not to meantion you'd have to do a whole lot more than just heal an arrow wound to persuade them to agree. __________________ "We might succeed in roasting Pippin alive inside." - Frodo.

01-31-2004, 08:08 AM	#15
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,349	Although I think The Real Findorfin hit on the most important point here (the Eagles are servants of Manwe first and foremost) I also consider control of the airspace the tactical/ strategic key here. The old (WWII) saw is, if you control the airspace you control the war. From Barad-Dur, Sauron had a clear view of his whole domain's airspace; and he had nine Nazgul who flew according to his whim. To send an eagle (or thirty) into that airspace would have been handing the Ring to Sauron on a feathery platter. __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.

01-31-2004, 08:47 AM	#16
camomile Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Athens Ga U.S.A Posts: 11	Tolkien had a tendancy to use the egals as a Deus-Ex Machena(sp) (machine of the gods)this makes sence concidering the fact they they where servents of the Manwe. they came to the rescue in the most deperite houre in every story they are a part of. (twice in the hobbit, once to rescue thorin and Co. from the goblins, and again when the battle of five armies reached its most desperate houre. and once in LOTR when the armies of the free people of middle earth faced imosibible odd at the gate of Mordor) it seams to me that the eagles role was that of a guardinan of MI to be called on only when things where most bleaqe. I think they where the most direct intervention of the gods thet was permitted. and used only after all of the efforts of the people of MI had faild. just my thoughts on the issue. chears. __________________ not all that is gold does glitter, not all those who wander are lost

01-31-2004, 07:20 PM	#17
TheSquireof Aragorn Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Michigan U.S.A. Posts: 46	It was mentioned before that the Eagles would likely be killed by the Nazgul if they were to fly into Mordor, but the Eagles could have perhaps dropped them off some where even if they only took them to Lorien. I believe that the Eagles didn't fly the Fellowship anywhere because if they had LOTR wouldn't be LOTR. __________________ "One more soldier dies, and when he gets to Heaven, to St.Peter he will tell, one more soldier reporting for duty, I've served my time in Hell."