Were Balrogs winged?

[The Barrow-Wight]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: uhh....

Because Gimli suggested it reminded him of one and Frodo was stating the obvious - it wasn't one.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

[Eldar14]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: uhh....

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;Far beneath the halls of Angband, in vaults to which the Valar in the haste of their assault had not descended, the Balrogs lurked still, awaiting ever the return of their lord. Swiftly they arose, and they passed with winged speed over Hithlum, and they came to Lammoth as a tempest of fire.&quot; <hr></blockquote>

Most people so far have used that quote as an example for why Balrog's have wings. They claim that &quot;arose&quot; means the Balrogs have wings, but it clearly states that they were lurking. When you are lurking, you have to arise before running off anywhere. Also, for &quot;winged speed&quot;, I don't remember Tolkien writing something along these lines for anything that we know has wings.

</p>

[Mithadan]

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Re: uhh....

How about...

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;He rose in fire and went away south towards the Running River&quot; <hr></blockquote>

Smaug had wings, didn't he? The language is startlingly similar actually.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Mister Underhill]

Dread Horseman
Posts: 672
Re: uhh....

Here's another similar structure, from RotK:

Smaug the Golden, greatest of the dragons of his day, arose and without warning came against King Thrór and descended on the Mountain in flames.

And here's something else that's interesting, from FotR:

Suddenly a shadow, like the shape of great wings, passed across the moon. The figure lifted his arms and a light flashed from the staff that he wielded. A mighty eagle swept down and bore him away.

Another case where the simile "like" is used before the (winged) creature is fully revealed.

[Orald]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: uhh....

Quick comment for my favorite Barrow Wight. Don't stop now, I'm behind you.

Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil be good to have been.</p>

[Mister Underhill]

Dread Horseman
Posts: 673
Re: uhh....

Since it's so slow, thought I'd address a few of these other arguments.

In these two passages the term "wings" is used as a simile and also as a metaphor. It would make no sense for Tolkien to use the term as a simile and and actual physical describtion because that would simply undo his previous work.

I’ve cited one precedent from the same book where JRRT uses the exact same structure – first the simile, then the full reveal. I don’t think we can concede your assumption here that “wings” is used metaphorically.

Also such things as troll escorts mentioned in the silm would not be needed if inded balrogs could fly.

The “troll guard” reference is very suspect and hardly authoritative. For an in-depth look at this reference (albeit in a different context) from the published Silmarillion, check this link. Suffice to say that the passage you’re quoting from was constructed by Christopher Tolkien from multiple sources. None of the source material published in HoME contains the troll reference, and in fact it is the only reference to trolls that exists at all in the published Sil. This argument is not convincing.

------------------------------------------------------
There is a penciled note on the manuscript against the describtion of the Balrog: 'alter the describtion of the Balrog. It seemed to be of man's shape, but its for could not be plainly decerned it FELT larger than it looked.' After the words 'Through the air it sprang over the fiery fissure' my father added: 'and a great shadow seemed to black out the light...'
------------------------------------------------------

What this quote proves is that tolkien wanted the Balrong to seem larger than it was and so
to do this he employed just a shadow in the first drafts.

quote:

------------------------------------------------------
Fellowship of the RIng] it is said only that the
Balrog 'stood facing him' : in C'the Balrog halted facing him, and the shadow about him reached out like giant wings'. Immediately afterward in FR the Balrog &quot;drew itself up to a great height , and its wings spread from wall to wall', neither B nor C has the words 'to a great height' nor speak of 'wings'.
------------------------------------------------------

.
what this quote prove it that wings were just the culmmonation of tolkien endevoring to make the Balrog seem larger and more commanding, it shows that tolkien did not want the balrog to be seen as a Winged beast but as a man-shape with a towering presence due to the imense shadow which seemed to accompany it. Tyhe fact that the shadow was present in the revious drafts but actual wings weren't until the very final supports the idea that tolkien had no intention of giving tha balrog wings and that when he did use the term 'wings&quot; he used it as a simile and a metaphor.

Again, I think unwarranted assumptions are being made here. It is reckless to attempt to divine JRRT’s final intentions by looking at these early and very different drafts. Case in point: Aragorn, in the versions you cite, is still named “Trotter”, who was earlier conceived as a mysterious hobbit, or, alternatively, as an elf in disguise. Obviously, these conceptions changed drastically as the story matured. The fact that the “wings” reference was added last may in fact provide a stronger argument in favor of a winged Balrog as the final conception.

They claim that &quot;arose&quot; means the Balrogs have wings, but it clearly states that they were lurking.

Passages using parallel construction in reference to winged beasts have been cited.

Also, for &quot;winged speed&quot;, I don't remember Tolkien writing something along these lines for anything that we know has wings.

I feel like Big Brother is trying to convince me that “War is peace.” You’re trying to tell me that the use of the word “winged” means that the Balrogs don’t have wings? Okay. I don’t remember Tolkien writing something along these lines for anything that we know doesn’t have wings, either. So there we are.

Quick comment for my favorite Barrow Wight. Don't stop now, I'm behind you.

...Oh wait. There's no argument here. Just some brown-nosing!

Just playing with you, D! Long time no see. Good to see you haunting the Downs once again.

Edited by: Mister Underhill at: 6/20/01 3:51:26 pm

[Orald]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Were Balrogs winged?

Not an argument, not even really on topic.

But didn't you both (BW and MU) write an essay concerning trolls of the first age and use the troll guard for a reference in those essays?

And if so. Shouldn't the passage still be held highly suspect? Or is this some kind of double standard that works for trolls but not for balrogs?

Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil be good to have been.</p>

[Mister Underhill]

Dread Horseman
Posts: 675
Re: Were Balrogs winged?

BW used the ref as potential evidence for First Age sun-resistant trolls; in my counterpoint essay, I did some deconstructing that (I believe) shows the passage to be unreliable. That's where the link goes to. No double standard here!

[Orald]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Were Balrogs winged?

Almost to thorough MU. Touchè.

Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil be good to have been.</p>

[Mister Underhill]

Dread Horseman
Posts: 676
Re: Were Balrogs winged?

Okay, I'm in the zone.

Thinking further on these quotes:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Far beneath the halls of Angband, in vaults to which the Valar in the haste of their assault had not descended, the Balrogs lurked still, awaiting ever the return of their lord. Swiftly they arose, and they passed with winged speed over Hithlum, and they came to Lammoth as a tempest of fire. (HoME Vol. X)

Far beneath the ruined halls of Angband, in vaults to which the Valar in the haste of their assault had not descended, Balrogs lurked still, awaiting ever the return of their Lord; and now swiftly they arose, and passing over Hithlum they came to Lammoth as a tempest of fire. ( The Silmarillion)<hr></blockquote>

...two points struck me.

First, the construction -- the use of the phrase &quot;passing over&quot; as opposed to "passing through" which is the more traditional phrase for landbound travel. Doing a little research, I noticed that Tolkien virtually always uses "pass (-ed, -ing) through" to denote landbound travel.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> The Hobbit
At first they had passed through hobbit-lands...

Unfinished Tales
...she passed through the land of Mithrim...

At his right hand rode Borondir, to serve as guide so far as he might, since he had lately passed through the lands.

...these words recalled his speech with Erendis as they passed through Emerië...

...we actually passed through the Shire, though Thorin would not stop long enough for that to be useful.

But on a time it chanced that he was passing through Eriador...

LotR
Leave a message for me here, if you pass through Bree.

We might spend a year in such a journey, and we should pass through many lands that are empty and harbourless.

...it was left in my care to be given to you, should you pass through this land...

...Black horsemen have passed through Bree.

At length after fifteen days of journey the wain of King Théoden passed through the green fields of Rohan and came to Edoras...

The Silmarillion
Thence he passed through Dor Dínen, the Silent Land...

It is told in the Lay of Leithian that Beren passed through Doriath unhindered...

No living creature could pass through that vale that Sauron did not espy from the tower where he sat.

...they intended in their haste to pass through Dimbar...<hr></blockquote>

He uses "pass over" in relation to landbound travel only to denote a crossing of some sort -- e.g., passed over a river, passed over an ocean, passed over the mountains, etc.

However, he does notably use "pass [-ed, -ing] over" to indicate the passage of flying creatures through a region

:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> LotR
`Regiments of black crows are flying over all the land between the Mountains and the Greyflood,' he said, `and they have passed over Hollin.

...a flying darkness in the shape of a monstrous bird, passed over Edoras that morning...<hr></blockquote>

Yet another telling detail from a man who chose his words with utmost care and consideration.

That's point one. Point two:

Just looking on the map of my Silmarillion, there are two physical realities of the Balrogs' rescue of Morgoth that jump out at me.

(1) In the chapter "Of Beleriand and Its Realms", it says that Dorthonion "stretched for sixty leagues (180 miles) from west to east". Based on that scale, I'd make the journey from Angband to Lammoth to be (conservatively) at least 200 miles in a straight line. Not only that, but...

(2) ...the mountain range of Ered Lómin is in the way. I reckon that if they were on foot, they must have been running like The Flash to Morgoth's rescue. Tolkien always portrays his flying creatures as being able to cover great distances in much shorter periods of time than those stuck on the ground (with the possible exception of Shadowfax -- though even he could have been overtaken by "a swift bird on the wing"). Flying Balrogs seem more in keeping with this pattern.


Edited by: Mister Underhill at: 6/21/01 1:46:16 am

[Mithadan]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bloody.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Were Balrogs winged?

Bravo Sir Underhill!

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bloody.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Were Balrogs winged?

Well researched and well said. Indeed, it seems there may be room for winged Balrogs in Middle-Earth if one is willing to dig deep into the texts for abstruse references. This is not meant as an argument against your report, Underhill. We've enjoyed plenty of spirited talk of this and other topics, and I'm not about to rekindle this one. Instead, I wonder why it is necessary to dig so deep to find evidence of the possibility of flight and wings. Why did Tolkien, a wonderfully talented author capable of detailed description (and purple prose <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> ), leave only shadowed clues? Was it his intention to leave an entire species of beings in perpetual shade? Was it an erroneous omission on his part that might have been corrected in time? Or was he undecided on the true physical nature of Balrogs, leaving their anatomy to the imagination of the reader? He certainly must have been aware of the controversy, but so far there have been no solid revelations discovered in his posthumous publications. Maybe HoME XXXVII will at last settle the matter.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

[Mister Underhill]

Dread Horseman
Posts: 678
Re: Were Balrogs winged?

I have often wondered whether there was such a controversy in Tolkien's day. Surely Christopher is aware of the controversy.

The optimist in me thinks that perhaps Tolkien never really solidified his conception of Balrogs (e.g., an entire species -- or only seven individuals -- or only three individuals?) and so Christopher has no definitive document, sketch, or painting which remains unpublished.

The pessimist in me senses a sort of resentment that Tolkien's heirs harbor against their father's rabid fans -- fans who have in many ways prevented them from living quiet, anonymous lives -- and wonders if Christopher refrains from settling these kinds of controversies as a sort of vengeful retaliation.

Then there's a part of me that just wonders what's on tv.

I wonder why it is necessary to dig so deep to find evidence of the possibility of flight and wings.

As a pro-winger, and with all due respect, my response is that it's not necessary to dig so deep to find evidence -- only to try to convince non-wingers of the error of their ways.

It seems to me that the non-wing camp's arguments more or less hinge on the "like two vast wings" phrase in "The Bridge of Khazad-dûm". If one accepts the thesis that the wings are metaphorical only (certainly not an unreasonable position), then one can easily convert what appears to be clear evidence to pro-wingers into more metaphors -- "...its wings were spread from wall to wall..." is taken to mean its metaphorical wings; "...flying from Thangorodrim..." is read as "to flee" instead of as "to move in or pass through the air with wings"; "winged speed" is read as "swiftly", or "as if with wings", rather than a more literal reading. To pro-wingers, evidence abounds!

The most significant find in my research of this go-round (to my mind, anyway) is the parallel use of the "like...wings" in the case of the eagle in FotR. If we view this use of the simile followed by the reveal as a curiosity of Tolkien's style, repeated again with the Balrog, then the basis for reading all the other evidence metaphorically is (I think) considerably weakened.

Anyway, I just enjoy the discussion, as always! I expect this argument will reach no definitive conclusion unless CT does publish that secret Balrog sketch in HoME Vol. XXXVII - Leave Us Alone Already!

[GandaIf The White]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Were Balrogs winged?

I haven't read this whole Topic, but while reading it I had an idea, which was what I had basically thought all along.

In the fight between Gandalf and the Balrog, it tells how the Balrog flew high into the air an came down onto the bridge. Maybe it was that the Balrogs could use there wings as an adnvantage to jumping, but not flying. I think that if they could have flown, they would not so easily have been cast into abbyses. So, with a push of the wings, a Balrog could fly high into the air for a distance but could not 'fly' like an eagle high into the air for long periods of time. It is just a thought.

Before these discussions, I had always imagined that Balrogs could fly. They are extremely powerful, an even if they could not fly, I had imagined them more being able to float with the assistance of there wings. But, in any case, they do have wings. (Not even if RKittle says otherwise. <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> )

"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends."</p>

[Fingolfin]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: umm

Mr. Underhill, I am sorry I have not been able to respond lately but here is my response to your numerous and unchallenged posts:

-------------------------------

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Another case where the simile &quot;like&quot; is used before the (winged) creature is fully revealed.<hr></blockquote>

All you proved is that tolkien used similes in other areas. This hardly proves that tolkien had a pattern of using the same word for both a simile and a physical attribute.


<blockquote>Quote:<hr> I’ve cited one precedent from the same book where JRRT uses the exact same structure – first
the simile, then the full reveal. I don’t think we can concede your assumption here that “wings” is nused metaphorically. <hr></blockquote>

No if you actually look at the different texts the structure is completely different the only similarity being in both a simile was utilized. The &quot;shadow&quot; in this case was independant of the object because of the time differencial and the nature of such a shadow as opposed to that of the Balrog shadow, if indeed the eagle is the object, but in &quot;the Bridge...&quot; they are not independant at all, the shadow is a part of the Balrog( sure if the balrog was casting a shadow hen what you said would apply but that is not how it works), it is completely different and is a complete stretch.

-------------------------------

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Again, I think unwarranted assumptions are being made here. It is reckless to attempt to divine JRRT’s final intentions by looking at these early and very different drafts. Case in point: Aragorn, in the versions you cite, is still named “Trotter”, who was earlier conceived as a mysterious hobbit, or, alternatively, as an elf in disguise. Obviously, these conceptions changed drastically as the story matured. The fact that the “wings” reference was added last may in fact provide a stronger argument in favor of a winged Balrog as the final conception.<hr></blockquote>

Are you saying looking at the previous drafts casts no light on the intensions of the author? The generalities and basic conepts remain true through out the drafts despite the variations on nomenclature and various details. THe fact is there is no hint as to such ariel appendages being present on the Balrog in any of the drafts but tolkien says himslef that he wished to make the Balrog seem larger then it actually was, his intensions in this respect are quite clear and unambiguous.

1. Tolkien wanted the Balrog to seem greater then it actually was (this is established to the end by his son)

2. The &quot;shadow&quot; is present in all of the later drafts as a means to accomplish this

3. If the Barog had literal wings then why would tolkien want to make it seem greater then it actually was? He would have no need to. He wanted it to SEEM larger then it actually was what would be the point if it already filled the room with its massive wings?

--------------------------------

In regard to what exactly arose meant that can not be determined since at different times it has meant different things. Tolkien set no rules as to what specific terms such as &quot;arose&quot; which are used in an infinite variety of contexts could be used. Sure He has used the term for creature with wings but has also has not:


Lord of the Rings, Book V Chapter 2:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> but her eyes were ever upon Aragorn, and the others saw that she was in great torment of mind. At length they arose, and took their leave of the Lady, and thanked her for her care, and went to their rest. <hr></blockquote>


Lord of the Rings, Book V Chapter 8:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> And Aragorn arose and went out, and he sent for the sons of Elrond, and together they laboured far into the night<hr></blockquote>


Lord of the Rings. Book V Chapter 9:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> But soon Aragorn arose, saying: &quot;Lo! already Minas Tirith is assailed&quot;<hr></blockquote>


Lord fo the Rings, Book VI Chapter 4:


<blockquote>Quote:<hr> And then Aragorn stood up, and all the host arose, and they passed to pavilions made ready, to eat and drink and make merry while the day lasted. <hr></blockquote>


Silmarillion Akallabeth:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> yet his spirit arose out of the deep and passed as a shadow and a black wind over the sea, and came back to Middle-earth and to Mordor <hr></blockquote>


and there is alot more...

------------------------------

As for &quot;winged speed&quot; by definition in this context the term winged means &quot;move with wings or as if with wings&quot; (no I did not make thatt up if you don't believe me you can look it up yourself). This being so the passage is hardely conclusive since saying they moved as if with wings is not with out presedent in the Silmarillion where in at least to passages they are described as being extremely fast, here is one:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Then suddenly Morgoth sent forth great rivers of flame that ran down swifter than Balrogs from Thangorodrim...<hr></blockquote>

If &quot;winged&quot; were used in such a context as:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ...pits of Angband there issued the winged dragons, that had not before been seen; and so sudden and ruinous was the onset of that dreadful fleet that the host of the...<hr></blockquote>

in which the term is used directly to modify the noun then your argument would work but that is not the case.

Also Tolkien has used in a number of passages the term &quot;winged&quot; to denote flying/fleeing/passing away which corresponds to my argument. One such case:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ...him ere it fled, almost gay it seemed to be casting off at last all doubt and care and fear. And then even as it winged away into forgetfulness it heard voices, and they seemed to be crying in some forgotten world far above: The Eagles are coming! The Eagles are Coming!...<hr></blockquote>

----------------------------

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> He uses &quot;pass over&quot; in relation to landbound travel only to denote a crossing of some sort--e.g., passed over a river, passed over an ocean, passed over the mountains, etc.

However, he does notably use &quot;pass [-ed, -ing] over&quot; to indicate the passage of flying creatures
through a region:<hr></blockquote>



Then how do you ex-plain the following quotes?


Lord of the Rings,Book III Chapter 2:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> At dusk they halted again. Now twice twelve leagues they had passed over the plains of Rohan and the wall of the Emyn Muil was lost in the shadows of the East. The young moon was glimmering...<hr></blockquote>


Lord of the Rings. Bok III Chapter 4:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> We crossed over Anduin and came to their land: but we found a desert: it was all burned and uprooted, for war had passed over it. But the Entwives were not there. Long we called, and long we searched; and we asked all folk that we met which way<hr></blockquote>


Lord ofthe Rings, Book V Chapter 9:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> He is watching. He sees much and hears much. His Nazgul are still abroad. They passed over this field ere the sunrise, though few of the weary and sleeping were aware of them. He studies the signs: the Sword that robbed...<hr></blockquote>


Lord of the Rings, Book VI Chapter 4:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> And they passed over Udrn and Gorgoroth and saw all the land in ruin and tumult beneath them, and before them Mount Doom blazing, pouring out its fire.<hr></blockquote>


Unfinished Tales, 1st Age:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> They walked warily when they left the woods, but all the land was empty and quiet. They passed over the tumbled stones...<hr></blockquote>


Unfinished Tales, the !st Age:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ...would pass to and fro between Thingol and his kin in Nargothrond. 22 Now they waited until the starlit night was late, and they passed over in the white mists before the dawn. <hr></blockquote>


Unfinishef Tales, The 3rd Age:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ...stern men of Arnor and war-hardened. Of their journey nothing is told until they had passed over the Dagorlad...<hr></blockquote>

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> From neither is the course of the battle perhaps perfectly clear, but it seems certain that the Riders having passed over the Undeeps...<hr></blockquote>



Even if what you said was correct (and its not) Hithlim is quite mountainous.


-----------------------------------------


<blockquote>Quote:<hr> The most significant find in my research of this go-round (to my mind, anyway) is the parallel use of the &quot;like...wings&quot; in the case of the eagle in FotR. If we view this use of the simile followed by the reveal as a curiosity of Tolkien's style, repeated again with the Balrog, then the basis for reading all the other evidence metaphorically is (I think) considerably weakened. <hr></blockquote>


There is no patternsince those two passages are completely different. THe fact is Wing is used as a simile and in the same context used again in the context of a metaphor. To have a simile back up a metaphor is common practice especially when a word can not be found to form another simile for comparison. To have a word used as a simile and a literal statement ( and it is easy to misconstrue a metaphor as that due to the way in which they are inserted grammictcally) makes no sense because it confused the issue and undos the former. It simply doesn't work.

-----------------------------------

Something else which doesn't make sense is if Balrogs could fly then why would the often give up their advantage and come down to the ground?

----------------------------------------

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Then suddenly Morgoth sent forth great rivers of flame that ran down swifter than Balrogs from Thangorodrim...<hr></blockquote>

if indeed Balrogs could fly then saying it &quot;ran down swifter&quot; would be an improper comparison since you would be utilizing two dissemiler acts.

--------------------------------------

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> In the front of that fire came Glaurung the golden, father of dragons, in his full might; and in his train were Balrogs, and behind them came the black armies of the Orcs in multitudes such as the Noldor had never before seen or imagined<hr></blockquote>

Where the Balrogs flying between the orcs and dragon? No, they couldn't fly, again why would they give up such a great tacticle advantage if not for combat then atl least for reconnosince.

------------------------------

more to come...

</p>

[Mister Underhill]

Dread Horseman
Posts: 685
Re: umm

Whew! There’s a lot of ground to cover here, so this one will be a whopper. But I’m up for it.

Underhill straps on his debating armor and girds himself with his weapon of choice: Tolkien’s texts...

All you proved is that tolkien used similes in other areas. This hardly proves that tolkien had a pattern of using the same word for both a simile and a physical attribute.

What it does show is precedent for using a simile as a way to foreshadow the full reveal of a creature. We can’t simply take for granted the use of a metaphor, as you have done.

No if you actually look at the different texts the structure is completely different the only similarity being in both a simile was utilized.

In the case of the eagle, the shadow is “like the shape of great wings”. Well, isn’t the shadow actually “the shape of great wings”? Of course it is. Tolkien has used this technique before. That’s all I’m showing.

The "shadow" in this case was independant of the object because of the time differencial and the nature of such a shadow as opposed to that of the Balrog shadow, if indeed the eagle is the object, but in "the Bridge..." they are not independant at all, the shadow is a part of the Balrog( sure if the balrog was casting a shadow hen what you said would apply but that is not how it works), it is completely different and is a complete stretch.

I submit that Tolkien does show a pattern of portraying mysterious characters/creatures (especially his bad guys) as “shadows” until they draw close enough to be revealed. Viz:

It looked like the black shade of a horse led by a smaller black shadow. The black shadow stood close to the point where they had left the path, and it swayed from side to side. (of a Nazgûl)

There came the soft sound of horses led with stealth along the lane. Outside the gate they stopped, and three black figures entered, like shades of night creeping across the ground. (of several Nazgûl)

Trembling he looked up, in time to see a tall dark figure like a shadow against the stars. (of the Barrow-wight)

We were outnumbered, for Mordor has allied itself with the Easterlings and the cruel Haradrim; but it was not by numbers that we were defeated. A power was there that we have not felt before. `Some said that it could be seen, like a great black horseman, a dark shadow under the moon. Wherever he came a madness filled our foes, but fear fell on our boldest, so that horse and man gave way and fled. (of a Nazgûl)

What it was could not be seen: it was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape maybe, yet greater; and a power and terror seemed to be in it and to go before it. (of – what else? – the Balrog)

'Yet if so, it was a black squirrel, and I saw no tail. 'Twas like a shadow on the ground, and it whisked behind a tree-trunk when I drew nigh and went up aloft as swift as any squirrel could.’ (of Gollum)

Before them went a great cavalry of horsemen moving like ordered shadows, and at their head was one greater than all the rest: a Rider, all black, save that on his hooded head he had a helm like a crown that flickered with a perilous light… Soon he had passed, like a shadow into shadow, down the winding road, and behind him still the black ranks crossed the bridge. (of the Nazgûl and his army)

Even as he did so, a dark shape, like a cloud and yet not a cloud, for it moved far more swiftly, came out of the blackness in the South, and sped towards the Company, blotting out all light as it approached. Soon it appeared as a great winged creature, blacker than the pits in the night. (of the Nazgûl and his winged steed)

The great shadow descended like a falling cloud. And behold! it was a winged creature: if bird, then greater than all other birds, and it was naked, and neither quill nor feather did it bear, and its vast pinions were as webs of hide between horned fingers; and it stank. (also of the winged Nazgûl steed)

Tolkien also frequently uses “like” in ways that shatter what you seem to perceive as the iron-bound rules for simile use. Not to belabor the point too far but here are a few instances:

But at that moment there came a sound like mingled song and laughter. (The sound is mingled song and laughter.)

A long-drawn wail came down the wind, like the cry of some evil and lonely creature. (The wail is the cry of an evil and lonely creature.)

His watch was nearly over, when, far off where he guessed that the western archway stood, he fancied that he could see two pale points of light, almost like luminous eyes. (The points of light are (Gollum’s) luminous eyes.)

Are you saying looking at the previous drafts casts no light on the intensions of the author?

I’m saying that the versions you cite represent a refining process, and that attempting to figure out Tolkien’s “final intentions” from early drafts is often misleading. Your assertion that the drafts remained substantially unaltered is not correct. The earliest version (Vol 7., Sec II) doesn’t have references to either shadows or to wings. In early notes, Tolkien thought that Gandalf’s opponent might be a Nazgûl; in later notes, he wondered if the Balrog was actually Saruman. There was clearly a lot of work done here. If Tolkien wanted the Balrog to have a more menacing, imposing presence, is not equally reasonable to deduce from your references that he would add wings to achieve this effect?

In regard to what exactly arose meant that can not be determined since at different times it has meant different things. Tolkien set no rules as to what specific terms such as &quot;arose&quot; which are used in an infinite variety of contexts could be used. Sure He has used the term for creature with wings but has also has not:

Neither Mithadan nor I have claimed that Tolkien used “arose” only in relation to flying creatures. We’ve merely cited two instances with startlingly similar construction referring to a winged creature.

As for "winged speed" by definition in this context the term winged means "move with wings or as if with wings" (no I did not make thatt up if you don't believe me you can look it up yourself).

1 a (1) : having wings "winged seeds" (2) : having wings of a specified kind -- used in combination <strong-winged> b : using wings in flight
2 a : soaring with or as if with wings.

In this case, “winged” can seemingly be read however the reader wants to read it (even your own definition says “move with wings”). But the use of the word “wing” in its various forms seems to be cropping up quite a bit, doesn’t it? Are you telling me that Tolkien, a master of the English language, a philologist by training and by nature, and a contributor to the Oxford English Dictionary, couldn’t come up with a different descriptive word to get his point clearly across? If you are, then I simply disagree with you.

This being so the passage is hardely conclusive since saying they moved as if with wings is not with out presedent in the Silmarillion where in at least to passages they are described as being extremely fast, here is one:
Then suddenly Morgoth sent forth great rivers of flame that ran down swifter than Balrogs from Thangorodrim...

It’s the “rivers of flame” (i.e, lava) that “ran down” here. It’s interesting that you use this reference. “Thangorodrim” refers to the sheer mountains reared above Angband, not the fortress itself. This analogy, especially when coupled with “flying from Thangorodrim” in LotR, is extremely suggestive of flight. See Thorondor’s rescue of Maedhros and Fingon. It’s a bit ridiculous to picture un-winged Balrogs running down sheer mountain faces.

As to the issue of their speed – I agree that they are speedy. Which to my mind argues in favor of wings. Nothing in Tolkien’s world (that I know of) travels faster than his winged creatures. His eagles, the Nazgûls’ winged steeds, and yes, the Balrogs, all travel with alarming speed.

Also Tolkien has used in a number of passages the term &quot;winged&quot; to denote flying/fleeing/passing away which corresponds to my argument.

I am not disputing that "winged" can be used metaphorically. But again I have to wonder why "winged", "wings", "flying", etc. keep cropping up in relation to Balrogs.

Then how do you ex-plain the following quotes?

At dusk they halted again. Now twice twelve leagues they had passed over the plains of Rohan and the wall of the Emyn Muil was lost in the shadows of the East. The young moon was glimmering...

I don’t think this contradicts my observation. This quote doesn’t say “They passed over the plains of Rohan”; it says they passed twice twelve leagues over the plains of Rohan.

We crossed over Anduin and came to their land: but we found a desert: it was all burned and uprooted, for war had passed over it. But the Entwives were not there. Long we called, and long we searched; and we asked all folk that we met which way

It's war that has passed "over" the land. Tolkien often likens war to a tide or a wave. I still don't think this contradicts my thesis, though I admit I'm splitting hairs a bit here.

He is watching. He sees much and hears much. His Nazgul are still abroad. They passed over this field ere the sunrise, though few of the weary and sleeping were aware of them. He studies the signs: the Sword that robbed...

This doesn’t help your case, but rather supports mine. The Nazgûl were traveling on winged steeds by this point.

And they passed over Udrn and Gorgoroth and saw all the land in ruin and tumult beneath them, and before them Mount Doom blazing, pouring out its fire.

This quote unfortunately doesn’t help your case either, since it refers to Gandalf flying with the eagles.

They walked warily when they left the woods, but all the land was empty and quiet. They passed over the tumbled stones...

Sounds to me like this describes climbing over the tumbled stones, not passing through a particular region.

...would pass to and fro between Thingol and his kin in Nargothrond. 22 Now they waited until the starlit night was late, and they passed over in the white mists before the dawn.

Again, no help. This describes a crossing of the Twilit Meres in ferry boats.

...stern men of Arnor and war-hardened. Of their journey nothing is told until they had passed over the Dagorlad...

The Dagorlad is a battlefield, not a region. I admit, this one is cutting it close too, but I think the useage is proper here. They crossed the battlefield. Still, even with exceptions I think there is strong evidence of a pattern here.

From neither is the course of the battle perhaps perfectly clear, but it seems certain that the Riders having passed over the Undeeps...

The “Undeeps” are shallow bends in the river Anduin.

Hithlim is quite mountainous.

Where are you getting this from? Hithlum looks like a plain to me, and is often described as being “bounded” by various mountain ranges. And anyway, if it was mountainous, I fear that helps my argument more than it does yours, as mountainous terrain would tend to slow down landbound travel.

There is no patternsince those two passages are completely different. THe fact is Wing is used as a simile and in the same context used again in the context of a metaphor. To have a simile back up a metaphor is common practice especially when a word can not be found to form another simile for comparison. To have a word used as a simile and a literal statement ( and it is easy to misconstrue a metaphor as that due to the way in which they are inserted grammictcally) makes no sense because it confused the issue and undos the former. It simply doesn't work.

Whether you think it works or not, Tolkien did it. I have shown several precedents.

Something else which doesn't make sense is if Balrogs could fly then why would the often give up their advantage and come down to the ground?

This is one of those questions that has no real answer, like “Why didn’t the good guys just use the eagles to fly them to the Cracks of Doom and throw the Ring in?” Since the Balrogs couldn’t breathe fire, like some dragons, I imagine they had to land to engage their enemies.

”In the front of that fire came Glaurung the golden, father of dragons, in his full might; and in his train were Balrogs, and behind them came the black armies of the Orcs in multitudes such as the Noldor had never before seen or imagined”

Where the Balrogs flying between the orcs and dragon? No, they couldn't fly, again why would they give up such a great tacticle advantage if not for combat then atl least for reconnosince.

It doesn’t say that the Balrogs weren’t flying. This little bit is a greatly compressed piece of action. I don’t think you can draw any conclusive facts from it one way or the other:

Then suddenly Morgoth sent forth great rivers of flame that ran down swifter than Balrogs from Thangorodrim, and poured over all the plain; and the Mountains of Iron belched forth fires of many poisonous hues, and the fume of them stank upon the air, and was deadly. Thus Ard-galen perished, and fire devoured its grasses; and it became a burned and desolate waste, full of a choking dust, barren and lifeless. Thereafter its name was changed, and it was called Anfauglith, the Gasping Dust. Many charred bones had there their roofless grave; for many of the Noldor perished in that burning, who were caught by the running flame and could not fly to the hills. The heights of Dorthonion and Ered Wethrin held back the fiery torrents, but their woods upon the slopes that looked towards Angband were all kindled, and the smoke wrought confusion among the defenders. Thus began the fourth of the great battles, Dagor Bragollach, the Battle of Sudden Flame.

In the front of that fire came Glaurung the golden, father of dragons, in his full might; and in his train were Balrogs, and behind them came the black armies of the Orcs in multitudes such as the Noldor had never before seen or imagined. And they assaulted the fortresses of the Noldor, and broke the leaguer about Angband, and slew wherever they found them the Noldor and their allies. Grey-elves and Men. Many of the stoutest of the foes of Morgoth were destroyed in the first days of that war, bewildered and dispersed and unable to muster their strength. War ceased not wholly ever again in Beleriand; but the Battle of Sudden Flame is held to have ended with the coming of spring, when the onslaught of Morgoth grew less.

------------------------------

more to come...

Lay on, Fingolfin! I’m ready!

Edited by: Mister Underhill at: 6/26/01 6:30:45 pm

[The Barrow-Wight]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 2337</TD><TD><img src=http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/my_pic.jpg WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
Can't let this thread stop.

Keep going!!

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

[Fingolfin]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 23</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
umm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> What it does show is precedent for using a simile as a way to foreshadow the full reveal of a creature. We can’t simply take for granted the use of a metaphor, as you have done. <hr></blockquote>

No it does not the circumstances are completely different. The Balrog is not casting a shadow as the Eagle is and if he was then I would have no argument.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> In the case of the eagle, the shadow is “like the shape of great wings”. Well, isn’t the shadow actually “the shape of great wings”? Of course it is. Tolkien has used this technique before. That’s all I’m showing.<blockquote>Quote:<hr>

Oh plz the shadow is being cast by the Eagle and so is a reflection of its form while the Balrog's shadow is part of its form. Did you even read my arguement?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> I submit that Tolkien does show a pattern of portraying mysterious characters/creatures (especially his bad guys) as “shadows” until they draw close enough to b<hr></blockquote><hr></blockquote><hr></blockquote>

He did not portray the Balrog as a shadow the Shadow was a characteristic of the Balrogs corporeal form.
In your example you have only cited areas in which tolkien used shadow as in that cast and so determined by the form and where a shawdow was described because of a lack of visual stimuli. That is not the case in with the Balrog tolkien is quick dogmatic about it and as such your examples are flawed.

you didn't even respond to my point tyou side-steped it.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Tolkien also frequently uses “like” in ways that shatter what you seem to perceive as the iron-bound rules for simile use. Not to belabor the point too far but here are a few instances: <hr></blockquote>

Oh plz I never said the term &quot;like&quot; is always indictive of a simile, must I define simile for you? Context is what determines what it is and you can't argue that the text in question does not contain a simle because it does any first year english freshmen could tell you that.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> I’m saying that the versions you cite represent a refining process, and that attempting to figure out Tolkien’s “final intentions” from early drafts is often misleading. Your assertion that the drafts remained substantially unaltered is not correct. The earliest version (Vol 7., Sec II) doesn’t have references to either shadows or to wings. In early notes, Tolkien thought that Gandalf’s opponent might be a Nazgûl; in later notes, he wondered if the Balrog was actually Saruman. There was clearly a lot of work done here. If Tolkien wanted the Balrog to have a more menacing, imposing presence, is not equally reasonable to deduce from your references that he would add wings to achieve this effect? <hr></blockquote>

Tolkien says himself he wanted the Balrog to seem greater then it actually was to add massive wings is to make the balrog great by definition and so it would be menacing because of its physical stature which is exactly what he wanted to avoid. To make something feel greater is not to actually make it greater.
The simile is present in the previous drafts but not the metaphor( and yes metaphors by definition seem to be statements of fact and can confuse some but the whole point of prempting the mention of wing with a simile was to make it perfctly clear) indicating that tolkien wanted to keep the idea of wings of shadow, since it is also present in the finalized version, but to have an actual appendage be present in the form of another characteristic would simply confuse the issue and in essence undo the shadow mentioning which has been maintained not only through out the drafts to the finalized version but also in the silm.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> In this case, “winged” can seemingly be read however the reader wants to read it (even your own definition says “move with wings”). But the use of the word “wing” in its various forms seems to be cropping up quite a bit, doesn’t it? Are you telling me that Tolkien, a master of the English language, a philologist by training and by nature, and a contributor to the Oxford English Dictionary, couldn’t come up with a different descriptive word to get his point clearly across? If you are, then I simply disagree with you. <hr></blockquote>

&quot;Winged&quot; in the context of your supposed proof doesn't actually have to mean that wings are in any way involved. Your own definition proves that. What I am saying is tolkien only used &quot;wing(ed)&quot; in the context of balrogs twice, hardly conclusive evidence, especially because he also used it in the context of a hobbit, perhaps hobbits have wings as well. Winged in one is often used to denote similarity as established by your definition and mine and it is not a stretch to say they moved as if with wings because I have already established that the moved very very quickly and wing in the other is in all probability a metaphor since the premptive simile established it as such.


<blockquote>Quote:<hr> It’s the “rivers of flame” (i.e, lava) that “ran down” here. It’s interesting that you use this reference. “Thangorodrim” refers to the sheer mountains reared above Angband, not the fortress itself. This analogy, especially when coupled with “flying from Thangorodrim” in LotR, is extremely suggestive of flight. See Thorondor’s rescue of Maedhros and Fingon. It’s a bit ridiculous to picture un-winged Balrogs running down sheer mountain faces.

As to the issue of their speed – I agree that they are speedy. Which to my mind argues in favor of wings. Nothing in Tolkien’s world (that I know of) travels faster than his winged creatures. His eagles, the Nazgûls’ winged steeds, and yes, the Balrogs, all travel with alarming speed. <hr></blockquote>

Pure conjecture, Are you saying there is no precident in tolkien's writings for land bound extreme speed? Plz tell me you are <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> I am not disputing that &quot;winged&quot; can be used metaphorically. But again I have to wonder why &quot;winged&quot;, &quot;wings&quot;, &quot;flying&quot;, etc. keep cropping up in relation to Balrogs. <hr></blockquote>

once to denote the shadow a well established featur e of the Balrog and the other to denote speed. Again twice hardly qualifies as a pattern.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> I don’t think this contradicts my observation. This quote doesn’t say They passed over the plains of Rohan; it says they passed twice twelve leagues over the plains of Rohan. <hr></blockquote>

Oh plz, how is that any differnent form: &quot;they passed with winged speed over Hithlum,&quot; the structure is exactly the same the only diffenernt being what the insertion denotes, one being speed the other distance, hardly diametric opposites.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> War passes “over” a land, not “through” it. This isn’t travel, but war. Tolkien often likens war to a tide or a wave. The useage is correct. <hr></blockquote>

Of course war passes through land. Besides War in this context is a noun not a verb and so saying that it traveled over land is no different from saying I passed over that same land unless the war was in the clouds.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> This doesn’t help your case, but rather supports mine. The Nazgûl were traveling on winged steeds by this point... <hr></blockquote>

I don't know why I typed those but it hardly hurts my case in that I mean to show that tolkien was not bound by those rules you put forth and in fact broke your commandment in a variety of ways despite the fact in some places his wording was inline with it. Looking at everything as a wehole is much more objective then looking at only certain passages.


<blockquote>Quote:<hr> The Dagorlad is a battlefield, not a region. I admit, this one is cutting it close, but I think the useage is proper here. They crossed the battlefield. <hr></blockquote>

Yes and I suppose the plains of Rohan and Hitlim are not regions either?


<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Where are you getting this from? Hithlum looks like a plain to me, and is often described as being “bounded” by various mountain ranges. And anyway, if it was mountainous, I fear that helps my argument more than it does yours, as mountainous terrain would tend to slow down landbound travel. <hr></blockquote>

I was very tired at the time of that posting and I said and posted something which really don't mnake sense in the light of day. That too does not hurt my argument since mountasinous terrain was not much of a hurtile for the creatures of morgoth but was more of a shield. Case in point Gondolin.

We have no idea how pragmatic the Balrogs were nor do I see how it matters that mountains proved a hinderance, The Blue Mountains and the Misty mountains also proved a hinderance did they not? Does that mena the Eldar flew over them? The fact is we don't know how the Balrogs traveled through mountianous regions but they did not fly. Case in poin Glorfindel's friend the jumper.


<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Whether you think it works or not, Tolkien did it. I have shown several precedents. <hr></blockquote>

You have shown nothing of the kind as I have addressed in the begining of this post. It seems you just don't wish to or can't respond. Besides you have shown no precedients paralell to the Balrog instance since the shadow is not a product of the form or lack of visusl stimulis.

Plz respond to my points instead of simply changing the issue or infering something other.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> This is one of those questions that has no real answer, like “Why didn’t the good guys just use the eagles to fly them to the Cracks of Doom and throw the Ring in?” Since the Balrogs couldn’t breathe fire, like some dragons, I imagine they had to land to engage their enemies. <hr></blockquote>

Then why is their no instance of them landing? Besides, there is a varitable coracopea or weapons they could utilize from the saftey of the air fire, even if not breathed, is one of them, (eg whips of flame)

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> It doesn’t say that the Balrogs weren’t flying. This little bit is a greatly compressed piece of action. I don’t think you can draw any conclusive facts from it one way or the other:<hr></blockquote>

Is that a response?, it clearly states that the Balrogs were behind the Dragon and the orcs were behind them. I guss it is possible that the ground under the Balrog was left empty for some reason, right? :P


<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Lay on, Fingolfin! I’m ready! <hr></blockquote>

I was going to but I didn't expect you to be so barrel-headed (not that that is a bad thing <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> )

-------------------------------


I dislike having to type lengthy posts in which I can only touch on each issue, perhaps it would be more apt to adress one issue at a time. especially since my time on allotted on the inter net is extremely limited <img src=frown.gif ALT="">


</p>

[Fingolfin]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 24</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
umm

Sorry about all the spelling and errors in grammer, as i said i have wee little time and constrained to the point of disarding grammer and various other points(for the time being) i would like to bring up but would be rather lengthy.

[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Dread Horseman
Posts: 688</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: umm

Fingolfin, the conversation is now rapidly devolving into, as one observer has opined, a back-and-forth of &quot;Is not!&quot;, &quot;Is too!&quot;. Our respective arguments will have to stand or fall on their own merits, as I've answered yours as best as I can, and I don't think you've made any new points in your most recent post, only accused me of sidestepping yours.

FYI, EZBoard will automatically spell-check your post for you. All you have to do is press the button that says, &quot;Spell Check&quot; next to &quot;Add Reply&quot;. It only takes a few extra seconds and will probably make your arguments regarding grammar seem much more credible.

I have not exhausted my taste for lively, respectful debate by any means. If you care to reply in that spirit, I'll be happy to carry on.



</p>

[obloquy]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
Posts: 32</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Argument.

I must say, Mister Underhill, I find your arguments to be wonderfully presented! You've all but convinced me. I think the only reason I'm not ready to say Balrogs had wings (and could thus fly, since I think the ornamental wings idea is ridiculous) is that I think Tolkien may never have chosen a solid mold for all or any of his Balrogs.

Now, my addition to this debate is for those of you who believe that the FotR has evidence enough, and that the wording itself makes this an open and shut case. This quote I believe to be pertinent: <blockquote>Quote:<hr> But Joe, taking it up carefully with both hands, like a bird's nest with eggs in it, wouldn't hear of parting with that piece of property, and persisted in standing talking over it in a most uncomfortable way.<hr></blockquote>

This is taken from Dickens' Great Expectations, as some of you may have recognized. Here, Joe holds his hat like a bird's nest. Four paragraphs later (and I promise, he's still holding a hat):<blockquote>Quote:<hr> All this time (still with both hands taking great care of the bird's nest), Joe was rolling his eyes round and round the room, and round and round the flowered pattern on my dressing gown.<hr></blockquote>

Joe's hat is not a bird's nest. Despite the marvelous Dickens' seemingly apparent claim. In fact, when reading this, one doesn't even question whether Joe was, in fact, accustomed to wear a bird's nest in place of an actual hat.

I realize that this is not Tolkien, and this is not Balrogs, but I know that some people rely solely on the English used to form their opinion. I'm not saying Tolkien couldn't have meant that the Balrog had outstretched, literal wings; I'm saying that he didn't necessarily intend for that to be the gist.

</p>

[Fingolfin]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 25</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
umm

Typically debates proceed with one party saying a fact is true while the opposite party says it is false. I don't see how this is a negative thing. You don't have to be patronizing and if you just don't want me to say anything at this board anymore becuase I annoy you then just say so. I came here expecting to debate tolkien issuse not face accusations of having a bad attitude when i simply hold to my convictions.

WHen I said you were side-steping I menat that you weren't addressing my core point, whether or not that was intentional none can say but the fact remains.

WHy do you think I wanted to focus on one point at at a time?

If you want me to leave I will. I am sure that this is not the only tolkien board out there. Have I outlived my welcome?



</p>

[GandaIf The White]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 263</TD><TD><img src=http://www.herr-der-ringe-film.de/HdR/crewmckel.JPG WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: umm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;..and its wings were spread from wall to wall.&quot;<hr></blockquote>
-FoTR, The Bridge of Khazad-Dum.

I still think that the Balrogs were winged. And I also think that they could not fly, but they used there wings for sudden bursts to &quot;draw themselves up to great heights&quot;.

"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends."</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000064>GandaIf The White</A> at: 6/29/01 5:03:01 pm

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist
Posts: 911</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: umm

Fingolfin, the Balrog's Wings issue traditionally raises very strong sentiments and opinions in posters. The reason for this is that, unless Christopher Tolkien possesses some hidden gem on the issue, the question of whether Balrogs have wings cannot (except in the opinion of the individual reader) be resolved with certainty. There are strong arguments both for and against the creatures possessing pinions (I am pro-wings).

Although I am reluctant to put words in his mouth, Underhill did not ask you to leave but rather said that, at this moment, he does not have anything more to add. In the tradition and etiquette of this board, Underhill is suggesting that you agree to disagree, and his post should be taken as such and nothing more. You are free to continue to post on this thread or any other, and anyone, Underhill included, is free to respond...or not. You two have had a lively session providing quite a bit of info for others to make their own judgments. But I believe that Underhill thinks the dead horse has been beaten soundly enough for now. Good show to you both.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

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Posts: 2338</TD><TD><img src=http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/my_pic.jpg WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
A friendly word to Fingolfin ...

If you feel that someone doesn't like your arguments or your style (neither is the case in this instance, as Mithadan explained), its no reason to consider packing up and leaving. Someone as good as supporting your point as you are surely doesn't have to retreat at the first hint of animosity (again, I stress that there was none in this case). And the truth is that you won't find a more civil Tolkien discussion location anywhere on the Internet. You would have been personally lambasted ten times over already on any other board (as would have Underhill <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> ).

Please continue this and other discussions here. And enjoy the friendly debates that develop.

Thanks,

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

[Mister Underhill]

Dread Horseman
Posts: 690
Re: umm

Quite right, Mith. Fingolfin, I haven't asked you to leave. On the contrary, I encourage you to post as often as you like and to stay as long as you want to. After all, it was your first long post that reinvigorated this discussion.

But we've reached an impasse. You think I sidestepped your points; I think I met them as well as I am able. You think I am wrong about the grammar, and I think you are wrong. What am I to do? I'm certainly not going to start pulling quotes from "The Elements of Style" or some other grammar manual, and there's no point in going back over the same arguments a second time. If my arguments are insufficient, then so be it. I'm just here to have fun and express my ideas, not to win or lose.

I would add, though, that name-calling and sarcastic arguments are probably not the best way to stimulate further discussion. I am not generally inclined to spend time researching and composing posts to rebut arguments that begin with the phrase, "Oh plz..." Mithadan is right -- debates like this one that get so detail-oriented can rouse strong sentiments among the participants. I apologize if I've said something that's helped to escalate matters.


obloquy:

Thank you for the compliment. Despite being a vigorous advocate for wings, I am inclined to agree that Tolkien never really solidified his conception of Balrogs the way he did other of his creatures. Certainly we see many different versions of them throughout his work.

I am a big fan of Dickens, and I acknowledge your analogous cite. I think I disagree, though, that it really is analogous in this case. Dickens deliberately uses "bird's nest" the second time for comic effect (an ability with which he was well endowed).

I think that the same argument that non-wingers use against "its wings were spread from wall to wall" can be used equally against their own "shadow wings". If you step back a few paragraphs from "the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings", you'll find the quote I mentioned earlier: "What it was could not be seen: it was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape maybe, yet greater..."

Could we not contend, based on this quote, that the "shadow" itself is metaphorical -- that the Balrog's dark form, especially in the gloom of Moria, is only like a shadow? I think what's happening here is that Tolkien has swathed his beastie in shadow and darkness (as he so often did with the Nazgûl) to heighten its mystery and menace before it steps forward, stands up to its full great height and spreads its wings -- its ultimate intimidating pose.


Gandalf the White:

The argument over wings/no wings basically boils down to trying to figure out Tolkien's meaning from the words he used. Since the encounter with the Balrog is over so quickly, there is little to go on, and the little that does exist is worded in such a way that opposing interpretations of it both seem reasonable. Both sides have been trying to bring in, in effect, circumstantial evidence that tips the scales in favor of one reading over the other.

Edited by: Mister Underhill at: 6/27/01 9:30:12 am

[Fingolfin]

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Posts: 26</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
I'm Sorry

I am sorry I got kinda frustrated because it seemed like you weren't listening (I now know that wasn't the case <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> ) even so that is no excuse for my sacasim and I humbly apologize and offer up my sword.

How could we continue though, should I try to bring up another isssue since these have been covered?

</p>

[Mister Underhill]

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Posts: 691</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
No problem...

Your most gracious apology is appreciated but unnecessary. Keep on postin'!

</p>

[The Watcher in the Water]

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Posts: 78</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: No problem...

I must admit that i havent been bothered to fully explore the longer posts made by Messers Fingolfin and Underhill but I just thought of something (I hope this hasnt been covered before) Just before we start I will admit that I am probably pro-wings, having not really thought about it before i just had in my mind the wings. My thought centres on the Maia nature of the Balrogs. Is it at all possible that they both do and do not have wings? WHat i mean is that could they not have some sort of shape-shifting ability with which they can assume the power of flight with wings or something. As such most times they would not appear with wings, but when required a set could materialize? I dont know that I am saying this well but what thinkest y'all?

(Once agin I hope this is a new idea and I havent bored everyone!) <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

The road goes ever on...</p>

[Glornan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 58</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: No problem...

I don't think they could shapeshift easily. I mean, all maiar/valar had to form some sort of body to be able to do stuff in ME, so they were no longer shapeless spirits. It appears that only higher, stronger, more powerful Ainur could easily shapeshift (e.g. Melkor,Sauron), and even then they could lose that ability (e.g. Sauron at the end of Numenor). So, once all the Balrogs had made themselves a body, it couldn't be changed, unless because of a wound of course.

By the way, is there any passage in the books that all the Balrogs were the same? I mean, couldn't they all have made a different body?

Glornan, Feeling sigless</p>

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

I thought that it was about time to bring this topic back to everyone's attention.

Just to clear things up:

*Fordim climbs onto a high place*

BALROGS HAD WINGS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!

*Fordim gets down from high place and takes a bow*

*Fordim turns and sees a large green hand coming toward him from stage left to yank him away and close the thread for good*

*Fordim cowers*

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

While reading UT yesterday, I came upon this quote.

[Voronwë: ][The Eagles] alone save the Noldor know the Hidden Kingdom and guard the skies above, though as yet no servant of the Enemy has dared to fly into the high airs.

(UT I 1- emphasis mine)

Note that the emphasised part has no time limit, like “no creature of Morgoth has dared to fly...since the Eagles made abode in the Echoriath.” It means that up to that point none of Morgoth's creatures had dared to fly in the high airs.

Now, for this rescue mission...

...now swiftly [the Balrogs] arose, and passing over Hithlum they came to Lammoth as a tempest of fire.

(The Silmarillion 9 - emphasis mine)

How could the Balrogs fly over Hithlum without taking the high airs? Any lower and they would have met a tragic end into one of the mountains. Ergo, they didn’t use their wings to fly this mission.

[Encaitare]

Oh man. I saw the title and was just drawn in, knowing a controvery was brewing

I don't think Balrogs had wings. I think the whole "shadows like wings" bit in FotR is just a metaphor for the shadow of dark power that the Balrog put out. And if they did have wings, why wouldn't the Balrog in Moria be able to fly out of the cavern under the Bridge of Khazad-Dûm? Plus, I believe I read somewhere that at one point Trolls traveled with the Balrogs, and Trolls certainly can't fly. The only thing I am sure of is that the Balrogs couldn't fly, wings or no, but I personally don't think they had wings anyway.