The creatures of the Enemy

[greywind]

If I am not quite mistaken, it is said several places, I do not remember where, that Morgoth made the goblins in mockery of the elves, and other races where also mentioned.

This is a "quote" i remember VERY vagely: "the enemy cannot create things out of his own imagination, but cannot do more than mockery" (is not this said by galdalf somewhere in LOTR?)

Here is the main question: What about trolls? What about dragons? The Emeny surely had more servants than the goblins. Which "free" race did he use to in mockery create theese?

[Lothiriel Silmarien]

I'm going to say this the best I can. Well, remember because I kinda forget some of this myself. The trolls he made in mockery of the Ents, I'm pretty sure about that, and I think it was the orcs he made in mockery of the elves. Goblins, orcs, whatever they're kinda alike! And dragons I just think he just made for his evil purposes and balrogs were Maia. So they weren't made in mockery, they're just evil spirits and whatnot. They're like Gandalf, but an evil kind! (really demented way to put it, I know)I think that's all...maybe they're more but that's all I can think of for now!

[Legolas]

Trolls are the Enemy's answer to Ents.

Dragons are never said to be created by Morgoth. We're not told anything, but, given that this quote is true, it would make sense that they were simply creatures of Middle-earth that Morgoth took control of...not created.

[ July 13, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]

[piosenniel]

Here is a good article from the Barrow Downs Encyclopedia about dragons:

Dragons

& here is one from the Encyclopedia of Arda:

More Dragons

Here is one on Trolls:

Trolls

[ July 13, 2002: Message edited by: piosenniel ]

[greywind]

Well, but i just thought that the enemy could not create things "of his own devise"... because of that quote i cannot find...

[greywind]

As for the orcs/goblins thing, they mean just the same, as stated in the beginning of "The Hobbit" [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

I like "goblins" though, i do not know why... maybe because "orcs" are used in the computer-game Warcraft.

[akhtene]

But even if he didn't create dragons he most probably bred them from... I don't know what creatures. Because when Glaurung (the first of the uruloi) first faces elves, he's yet young and scarce half-grown. And he seems unknown to elves: 'Few forsaw the full meaning and threat of this new thing'. And Morgoth was ill-pleased that Glaurung had disclosed himself too soon.

I think it proves that dragons were not just tamed by Melkor, But they were something really new that emerged from Angband.

[greywind]

Indeed, and that must mean that he did create something new...

However, i am sure my "quote" does not only accour in my own fantasy... does someone know what I am referring to, and why this was not so in the early days, when he could create dragons?

[The Silver-shod Muse]

I like "goblins" though, i do not know why... maybe because "orcs" are used in the computer-game Warcraft.

So I'm not the only one that noticed how much Warcraft copies from Tolkien!

This post is just a little off-topic, but I couldn't help myself. Sorry. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Kuruharan]

Just to further the delinquency of the thread a little (yes I know *smack* bad Kuruharan!), but pretty much any fantasy game (much like most fantasy books) that you find relies heavily on Tolkien's influence.

He's that dominant a figure in the genre, even in different mediums.

Okay, now, what were we talking about. Did I hear someone mention...Dragons? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Orofacion of the Vanyar]

Trolls are the Enemy's answer to Ents.

That is according to Treebeard, a very unreliable source. The origins of trolls is highly debated. Here is a recent thread started here at the BarrowDowns that might interest you on trolls and Olog-Hai.

Trolls, Olog-hai, and their fea

Dragons are just as tricky when it comes to their origins. You could say they are the counterpart to Manwe's eagles. But how exactly they were created is uncertain. Speculation can be a fun thing though. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[greywind]

I have finally found what I were looking for, in Quenta Silmarillion! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[...] And thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of Orcs in evny and mockery of the Elves [...] And naught that had life of his own, nor the semblance of life, could ever Melkor make since his rebellion in the Ainulindalë becore the Beginning: so say the wise [...]

As that link proved, the matter of "which creature have life of his own" makes my question more diffucult then I could ever imagine. But at least Dragons, should have life on his own, since they are bred (let me know if I am wrong).

However:

Again after a hundred years Glaurung, the first of the Urulòki, the fire-drakes of the North, issued from Angband's gates by night.

must mean that Morgoth bred Dragons as a new thing...

Does this mean that Dragons did not have life of their own, or does it mean that Dragons were mocking copies from something else (like Manwë's eagles)?

Or does it mean that the wise were simply wrong when they said He could not make things that had life of their own?

Pardon me for not reading your whole link... I have never read anything in the HoMe series.

[ July 14, 2002: Message edited by: greywind ]

[ July 14, 2002: Message edited by: greywind ]

[greywind]

[...] but pretty much any fantasy game (much like most fantasy books) that you find relies heavily on Tolkien's influence.

I totally agree! Tolkien is the Great Father! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

But this, however, was not my point when I said that i prefered "goblins" to "orcs"... I really hate Warcraft.

[Daniel Telcontar]

I don't think the dragons were created as a mockery to Eagles, although Morgoth certainly feared them. Remember, for a long time the only dragons existed were wingeless. Not until the War of the Wrath was winged dragons in war. I think Morgoth simply needed servants able to create havoc on their own, and did not need an army to back them up. Also dragons were by far the toughest creatures to kill that Morgoth had in his army.

[Aldagrim Proudfoot]

As I have said in other posts (sorry to repeat myself, but this topic comes up a lot) I think dragons were bred from lizards. I mean big lizards, like moniters, and Morgoth caused them to grow and make them smarter.

[Child of the 7th Age]

I like the idea of dragons being created (or corrupted) from lizards rather than being created from nothing. I'm comfortable with Morgoth corrupting them and breeding them into a more effective weapon, rather than creation from nothing which poses many philosophical problems.

Is it theoretically possible then, that one could have a "dragon", a descendent of a lizard, who had not been corrupted? Just curious.

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[akhtene]

Glaurung, the Father of Dragons, is sometimes called Worm. So it can be their family name and origin... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Although I'm no biologist, I know it's stupid. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Kuruharan]

Is it theoretically possible then, that one could have a "dragon", a descendent of a lizard, who had not been corrupted? Just curious.

No. There was more going on than just breeding and corrupting giant lizards. They had an evil spirit of some sort (I personally believe that at the bare minimum some of them had to be Maiar) and they were marked by the will of their master Morgoth. Without those you have no dragon.

[ July 15, 2002: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]

[Orofacion of the Vanyar]

I tend to agree with you Kuruharan on the point about the Maiar. Dragons were far too intelligent and crafty, some, like Ancalagon, had a sort of evil power to them. This could not be achieved by breeding alone. A lizard could not just develop these abilities, no matter how big it got.

The origin may be two-fold. I believe a Maiar spirit was present in a "shell" of a dragon. Melkor could very well have bred lizards to an extreme size and then have a fire-demon enter into it. This would explain where the power of the dragon came from. Tolkien of course never really justified this, it is conjectural, but fairly reasonable I believe.

[Aldagrim Proudfoot]

Kuruharan, now Isee where you were going in the thread about Maiar. That point does make sense. I think I agree with you about the spirit.
Also, Doesn't the Sil mention demons as well as Balrogs? what would those be?

[Fingolfin of the Noldor]

Inregard to the origins of Orcs Tolkien eventually, it seems, rejected the idea of elves in favor of men as can be seen manifest in his last essay on the matter:

The origin of Orcs is a matter of debate...
Those who believe that the Orcs were bred from some kind of Men, captured and perverted by Melkor, assert that it was impossible for the Quendi to have known of Orcs before the Separation and the departure of the Eldar. For though the time of the awakening of Men is not known, even the calculations of the loremasters that place it earliest do not assign it a date long before the Great March began, certainly not long enough before it to allow for the corruption of Men into Orcs. On the other hand, it is plain that soon after his return Morgoth has at his command a great number of these creatures, with whom he ere long began to attack the Elves. There was still less time between his return and these first assalts for the breeding of Orcs and for the transfir of their host westward.
This view of the origin of orcs thus meets with difficulties of chronology. But though Men may take comfort in this the theory remains nonetheless the most probable. It accords with all that is known of Melkor, and of the nature and behavior of Orcs and Men... 'Orcs' pg 416-17

Given this I don't think we can assume that all orcs were corrupted elves especially given the fact that what is stated in the silmarillion is simply a hypothesis of the Noldor of Eressea:

But of those unhappy ones who were ensnared by Melkor little is known of a certainty. For who of the living has descended into the pits of Utumno, or has explored the darkness of the counsels of Melkor? Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressea, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison... "Of the Coming of the Elves" The Silmarillion

I think rather it would be the best course to assume that orcs were in the beginning elves and later men(to put it simply but more rather a combination of the two theorys to accomidate the problem of chronology while at the same time respecting Tolkien's final thoughts as well as those elements which demand reconciliation).

[Ulairi]

All were the embodiment of the Chief evils of men, elves, and dwarves, and so were great in their destruction of those races...but they had their flaws of vanity, gluttony, deceit, and wrath.

I read this in the tolkien encyclopedia, regarding dragons.

[Feanaro]

"Green things fell sick and rotted, and rivers were choked with weeds and slime, and fens were made, rank and poisonous, the breeding place of flies; and forests grew dark and perilous, the haunts of fear; and beasts became monsters of horn and ivory and dyed the earth with blood."

The description of Morgoth's dwelling of Utumno in "Of the Beginning of Days." Just thought I'd throw that out to help clarify how Morgoth found subjects to pervert and twist into strange creatures... perhaps even the "prototypes" of dragons.

[Tyler]

As it had been said trolls were made from Ents. Also know is that Morgoth could make things so how did he make the troll. I think it would have been much harder to capture a Ent. I doubt thay were ever alone and they dident just give in. Another question is why arnt trolls more organic like the an Ent. I could see an orc is just a elf that has been messed up(a lot). Maybe the trolls are to be like the mountains which would make them more organic than i thought before.

[Tyler]

I forgot to talk about the the other creatures. We do have wargs, dragons, and the winged creatures of the Nazgul. The wargs could have been twisted wolves and the winged creatures are probaly twisted eagles. I find it odd that there arnt too many of them. Maybe they were twisted dragons. Cause dragons wernt created by Morgoth. Maybe he got one and made the creatures but could only make a few due to the lack of more drangs. I am starting to ramble so im going to stop.

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

It's just like with the werewolf servants Sauron as Thu had under his control. Morgoth took something viscious, but not evil (wolves) and introduced fell spirits into them. He did it to Draugluin, father of werewolves, and then tripled the power in one of Draugluins puppies, Carcaroth. Carcaroth was quadruple the size of Draugluin, who was triple the size of a wolf, and probably a little man-like. Morgoth may have simply taken reptiles and spliced them a little, then introduced pre-existing fell spirits into them (like Sauron did to the Barrow Wights). Who knows how many he had anyway.

I do think though, that the likes of Glaurung, Smaug or Ancalagon may have been some pretty horrific spirits as well. Who were they before they were stuck in dragon bodies? Eagles? Something along the lines of what the Nazgul rode during the war of the ring? I'd assume the latter. Anyway, noone said Tolkien discluded dinosauria from his tales. The Valar created much, and Morgoth destroyed it in his spite, constantly supplanting their efforts. Maybe he kept a few Tyrannosaur's around, and just did stuff to them. Lots and lots of stuff, until they were dragons.

[obloquy]

He did it to Draugluin, father of werewolves, and then tripled the power in one of Draugluins puppies, Carcaroth. Carcaroth was quadruple the size of Draugluin, who was triple the size of a wolf, and probably a little man-like.

Where do you get all this stuff from?

[Sharkû]

(Draugluin² + ordinary wolf³) : Sauron's malice + extra yummy men snacks * pi = Carcharoth

VT #23, Notes on Dragon Formulae

[ November 26, 2002: Message edited by: Sharkû ]

[Manwe Sulimo]

Back to the original post, if it was said during LotR by Gandalf, then chances are he was referring to Sauron....

[the witch king]

dragons that a hard 1 could they not be maiar takeing a new form as they where capeble of inderpendant thorts and actions speech and had great power

[the witch king]

ah new idea! dragons at first where wise and friendly as they are depicted in the far east and morgoth took them and twisted them to his evil ways????