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08-08-2023, 10:18 AM | #1 | ||||||
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tol Morwen
Posts: 358
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Of the House of Ingwë and Indis' parentage
So - the idea that Indis was either the sister or (in a later version) the niece of Ingwë has been all but accepted by the fandom in general.
This is because of the fact that in The Shibboleth of Fëanor (from c. 1968, I believe) there is a quote: Quote:
However, this is not the end of the story, because: 1) There is a footnote by Tolkien to the Shibboleth, along with CT's commentary, that goes like this: Quote:
Mind you, this note is from around the same time period as the statement that Indis was Ingwë's niece. But I think Christopher Tolkien's confusion with the above quote is most likely explained (IMO) by the fact that he wasn't aware that Tolkien already considered Indis as the daughter of Ingwë! Which leads me to: 2) the recently published The Nature of Middle-earth. Long story short, every version of Indis' parentage in that book have her as Ingwë's daughter. For example: Quote:
This particular text, however, is dated from c. 1959 - long before the Shibboleth and the note appended to it. Also, there's this text: Quote:
This text too dates from c. 1959. While these texts are about 9 years earlier than the one in The names of Finwë's descendants, they serve to illustrate that Tolkien very much envisioned Indis as the daughter of Ingwë at multiple points in time. And, finally: 3) As far as I can tell, belonging to a 'House', say...'House of Ingwë', implies patrilineal descent (that is, father/child descent) for the most part in Tolkien's writings. So, of course, there's this quote from the Shibboleth: Quote:
This text also dates from c. 1968 or so. And to top it all: 4) It just makes so much more sense for all our main characters, such as Elrond, the Dunedain descended from Elros (such as Aragorn), Arwen, etc. to be descended from all 3 great Elf-kings!
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08-09-2023, 02:39 AM | #2 |
Overshadowed Eagle
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: The north-west of the Old World, east of the Sea
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Great point about "NoME Indis". Looking at the two Shibboleth texts, it certainly appears that the Aragorn note was written after the "daughter of his sister" comment in the text; it's a footnote to the end of the "Names" section.
The "sister" version is from HoME X:261-2, the "Finwe and Miriel" chapter. Looking at the sequence of composition, the "FM4" text which makes Indis sister of Ingwe was written after "FM2", which was derived from LaCE, which is itself ca. 1958. "FM3" was written on a new typewriter Tolkien acquired in January 1959 (cf. HoME X:300). And the NoME texts are among the latest in the "Time and Aging" composition sequence, which per NoME itself means they post-date the typescript of LaCE. My best guess of the chronology is therefore:
I'm afraid I do have to query your "House = patrilineal descent" comment. The House of Eorl, for example, includes two jumps to the maternal line, while the House of Beor seems to indicate the entire people of Beor. Then there's Gildor Inglorion, "of the golden House of Finrod", who isn't even related to Finarfin. That last in particular, along with things like the House of the Wing in Gondolin, makes me think we can't be confident "House of Ingwe" didn't just mean "people who lived in Ingwe's house". hS
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08-09-2023, 06:57 AM | #3 | ||
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tol Morwen
Posts: 358
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Quote:
1) I just have to state that the note to the Shibboleth doesn't actually say that Indis was the daughter of Ingwe: you correctly wrote that she was a descendant of Ingwe (but I still believe, based on the evidence from NoME, that Tolkien had a father/daughter relationship in mind here, IMO at least) 2) You're also right about the 'Houses' situation - however, I did point out (maybe not as emphatically as I should've) that it is only for the most part that Tolkien had such a notion of a 'House': implying, of course, that there are exceptions. But perhaps I'm wrong about my assumptions. Also, the reason I didn't even bother giving sources for the 'Indis, sister of Ingwe' version is because I'm well aware that this version of her descent was discarded fairly quickly (as far as I can tell, at any rate).
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08-09-2023, 07:43 AM | #4 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 369
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Quote:
"It was arranged – for Imin, Tata, and Enel said men [i.e., Elvish males] awoke first, and began the families – that when any woman married one of another Company, she was reckoned to have joined the Company of her husband. The exchange was about equal and does not affect calculations materially. For the same reason, descent of authority was reckoned from the immediate father; but women were in no way considered less or unequal, and Quendian genealogy traced both lines of descent with care."
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08-09-2023, 11:38 AM | #5 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,321
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"House": I think Tolkien used both sides of what is traditionally a dual meaning in English usage- A) House meaning a ruling or powerful family, related by blood or at least marriage; and B) House meaning the above together with all their retainers and followers; their faction. Think Montagus and Capulets. (He also has Saruman pun(?) on a third, "physical dwelling" in his nasty jibe at the House of Eorl.)
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