The Balrog as the Loathly Lady from medieval literature.

[monks]

Hi all, further to my recent post on here regarding the riddle of the hidden images on the West Wall of Moria. In that I claimed that the Balrog was The Loathly Lady from medieval literature. Here's the post.

http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthr...wap#post727926


Today I discovered further important supporting evidence. In the literature the Loathly Lady is more than once referred to as carrying a whip of many thongs. For the moment, the evidence is presented in the 'West Pool' section of Part II. If you click on the link you can find the West Pool in the contents section at the top.


You can read my full articles on the Riddle of the Hidden West Gate images here:

Part I

http://www.thewindrose.net/blogs/the...ate-drawing-2/

Part II

http://www.thewindrose.net/blogs/the...awing-part-ii/


You can find another recent post on here of mine about the 102 predictions to date I've made regarding details of the texts of Tolkien's works.

http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthr...382#post728382

You can find the predictions in the pdf on my website here: http://www.thewindrose.net/predictions/

Cheers,
Have a nice day!

monks

[Morthoron]

I am uninterested in clickbait. I will just say that it is evident you have never actually researched the "loathly lady" folklore motif.

The Irish kingship tales of Níall Nóigíallach and Lugaid mac Dáire, Chaucer's “Wife of Bath's Tale,” Gower's “Tale of Florent,” as well as “The Wedding of Sir Gawain and Dame Ragnelle,” and “The Marriage of Sir Gawain” all concern transformative motifs wherein the hag proves to be a counselor to the male protagonist, who learns a valuable lesson and is rewarded.

Any other coincidences you wish to magnify are extraneous, and I would suggest in the case of the Balrog, ridiculously irrelevant.

[monks]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I am uninterested in clickbait. I will just say that it is evident you have never actually researched the "loathly lady" folklore motif.

The Irish kingship tales of Níall Nóigíallach and Lugaid mac Dáire, Chaucer's “Wife of Bath's Tale,” Gower's “Tale of Florent,” as well as “The Wedding of Sir Gawain and Dame Ragnelle,” and “The Marriage of Sir Gawain” all concern transformative motifs wherein the hag proves to be a counselor to the male protagonist, who learns a valuable lesson and is rewarded.

Any other coincidences you wish to magnify are extraneous, and I would suggest in the case of the Balrog, ridiculously irrelevant.

Hi, here's some more clickbait for you. I want YOU specifically YOU, to stay in this thread and fight me. I'll be waiting for you. Do NOT run away.

Tolkien Prediction #71 from my website...

That Tolkien would refer to Shelob as 'loathly' or loathsome'.

Hardly had Sam hidden the light of the star-glass when she came. A little way ahead and to his left he saw suddenly, issuing from a black hole of shadow under the cliff, the most loathly shape that he had ever beheld, horrible beyond the horror of an evil dream. Most like a spider she was, but huger than the great hunting beasts, and more terrible than they because of the evil purpose in her remorseless eyes.

As you can see Tolkien went all the way with that one.

The Balrog and Shelob are manifestations of the same idea. It's all right and left handed geometry (male and female) which describes the 'battle of the sexes' and the Loathly Lady theme which runs throughout the entirety of his works beginning at the Discords of Melkor. The geometry is created in the hands sequence of Ilúvatar. It's a dialectic. Plato's 'The Republic' and 'The Timaeus', the source for the geometry- Tolkien's use of the right-angled triangle, the Spindle of Necessity, and the dialectic.



There are 101 more predictions of that nature on my website which have been generated from the above understanding of his works. It's all geometry and mathematics folks.

I see you have none so far "Morthoron". Do let me know when you have one.

And you can see the hidden images in the cliff face which Tolkien left. Here's the oppressed, meek lady and the man who rules over her.

http://www.thewindrose.net/westgate_waterfallfaces2/

You may note the left wing of the cloak extended which is the same left wing in Priya Seth's anagram MINE HOLE FALL, HELD LEFT WING in her book 'Breaking the Tolkien Code'.

Here's the inversion of the oppressed meek lady- the Loathly Lady, the Balrog. This is the same image as the previous one but turned upside down.

http://www.thewindrose.net/westgatebalrogwaterfall/

And here's the Lovely Lady on the right of the cliff face.

http://www.thewindrose.net/predictio...te_sexuality2/

The Lovely Lady I pointed out in the cliff face..yes? That's what the Balrog (and Shelob and all other manifestations of the theme) turns into- metaphorically.

Yes the transformation does indeed occur. Follow the link below where I posted my first prediction of the 102 so far...and read about how the female is restored from the south to her rightful place as the Sun in the north. And then come back here and we'll have a little chat...and you may see that I actually made prediction #102 predicting that the etymological root of the word 'attentive' was from 'to stretch' (I was correct..it derives from tendere "stretch," from PIE root *ten- "to stretch.") while writing the last post in that thread on the hoof.

You'll find the explanation of the machinery which drives the transformation throughout this post here.

http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthr...d=1#post728372

monks

[Morthoron]

Sorry, uninterested in nonsensical conjecture about coincidences that do not at all apply to the motifs clearly established, and which Tolkien would plainly understand.

I will not be replying further. As I have already surmised, you are not who you say you are "Monks". And since we have never had discourse previously but you evidently know who I am, I would suggest you end your little clickbait charade.

[monks]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Sorry, uninterested in nonsensical conjecture about coincidences that do not at all apply to the motifs clearly established, and which Tolkien would plainly understand.

I will not be replying further. As I have already surmised, you are not who you say you are "Monks". And since we have never had discourse previously but you evidently know who I am, I would suggest you end your little clickbait charade.

haha...Morthy baby. Bet that's the first time you've seen anything resembling an etymological definition in a looooong time huh?

You actually thought that I'd come online and post and not even know that there is a transformation of the Loathly Lady to the Lovely Lady?? haha..That just shows you how far up yourself you are. 15 years pal. Several 1000 etymological definitions from the forensic study of the words in Tolkien's texts directly.

That there is the language Tolkien speaks. You don't. Because?....repeat after me...YOU_KNOW_IT_ALL already right?

Clive Kilby knew Tolkien was hiding a lot. Clive Kilby unlike you, actually spent time with Tolkien. Tolkien even told him he had a lot to reveal. And there we are with those images hidden in the cliff face. Not related at all to that fact..nuuuuu. lol And I come along and can explain them and Seth's anagrams too.

I DARE you to take me on in front of all of your homies here. I will wipe the floor with you. It'll be a lot of evidence and proof -and lot of etymological definitions.

He got the "transformation" from Haggard's 'She' btw..and the Scarab rolling the Sun around the world as it did in myth. And that "transformation" takes on a geometric meaning. It's Tolkien's implementation of The Wheel of Fortune which is what Seth's anagrams are about.

Now run along and keep pretending that you know everything and go snuggle up with your Tolkien comfort blanket eh?

I'll be waiting right here just in case you grow a set

monks

[mindil]

Let's say that your approach is correct. Let's imagine that you have completed your study of Tolkien and managed to connect every possible word with every possible symbol. You have identified hundreds or thousands of patterns.

Your conclusion so far has been that Tolkien is predictable and uses patterns. Is that all your study has to offer? Is all you have to teach us the fact that he is predictable and uses patterns? What does that predictability tell us further? Is there anything to learn from the sort of patterns you find in Tolkien?

Do we now know that he was a numerologist? A member of a secret society? Is his book a secret code to the apocalypse? In which case, what is the secret message?

It should be clear to you by now that extremely few people are going to pursue your line of research. But that's OK, all research is done by a few for the benefit of the many. Scientific researchers don't tell their readers: "If you want to know how to use the results of our study, do it yourself." They present their useful conclusions in the plainest language possible.

So please tell us: What overall new, insightful insight do we now know about Tolkien and his opus, thanks to his predictability and patterns. I don't want to know the details of 6s and 9s. I want to know what single, meaningful large insight you have to share that grows out of all those tiny details, without hearing a single one of those details.

That's what researchers do in every other field. They tell me that anti-oxidants protect against toxins, without my having to understand a single thing about bio-chemistry.

Please tell me what meaningful conclusion you have to offer, without my having to read a single word of any of your patterns and predictions.

Thank you in advance.

[monks]

Hi Mindil, thanks for taking the time to read and respond.

Firstly, I don't come on here trying to troll people. People have responded to my posts often in the most disrespectful and dismissive manner. I will only be disrespectful and combative with people if they start the conflict. If Morthoron had actually read my posts or even half-politely inquired-he would have known already that I had incorporated the transformation of the Loathly Lady into the Lovely Lady in my analysis and posts. That transformation involves The Star of the North most obviously. That's how you make yourself look like an idiot. My 'fight me' is just a bit of banter after previously encountering those kinds of responses. So me responding to that disrespect becomes clickbaiting. Puh-lease. Pot kettle black.

This is part of the problem. A general point. The fact that people once they accept that there *just might possibly* be some things hidden within Tolkien, then they say "well even if it is true, why should I care, why is it relevant to us?". They move the goal posts. The extremely obvious answer to that is that if Tolkien cared about it, then why the heck shouldn't we? And the moving the goal posts thing (otherwise known as no_integrity) is the line people take when they avoid the exposition, the analysis, if it involves uninteresting or inconvenient things like geometry, but equally will then turn around and with the same mouthful take umbrage all day long at film makers etc who don't care about the details in Tolkien. Shysters all of em.

For example, most of Tolkien's hidden system is hidden in the etymologies of the words. That's how I arrived at my understanding of it over 15 years. If you don't care about the etymology of words, then you don't care about the same things as Tolkien. And then as critics (all very expert on here I see in their attacks on my posts) Tolkien straight away puts you in the Lit camp, the oak camp, yaknow..the camp with the trolls? Speaking of trolls. And from that point you expose yourself to being extremely dumb as a brick in your critique and getting hammered by people like me if you've got the cojones to face me or lack the good old fashioned humility to maybe just listen.

People wondering about what and who Bombadil is oh for like 70 years...

Seth's anagram from the name of Bombadil WARN FRODO AND BILBO I BE A MAIA – MR RONALD T

Nah..me I'm not buying that for one moment...Tolkien only ever left one anagram in his works and that is YOU LEFT THE PATH OF WISDOM

He's a Maia clearly. And that's just the start of it. Tom and Goldberry are the circles of the World (symbolized by the two wedding rings of Tolkien and Edith), Space Time, and the left and right hands of Ilúvatar no less. And that was discovered by 'looking for hidden things' and 'leaving the path of wisdom'. That comment is an untenable, preposterous opinion- the last refuge of the bone-idle and eternally clueless- because clearly Tolkien also did. That's actually what Bombadil is- the philologist who lives in a very private world and appears to talk complete gibberish to everyone around him and in fact, appears to be a bit of a fool. So, I'm in good company. heh..This is the kind of thing Bombadil would do. He would take a name like say uhm I dunno 'Morthoron' and break it down into a composite of two words ''thor' -that is the oak, the lit camp (opposite of the birch, Oden in his system) and moron. hahaha :-) Yours is not much better ..sorry. Mind..yeh that's a good start but 'il'..that's the mystic word for the reversal of something...oh oh spaghettio. :-D Like me he is 'fond of parties' (past participle of partir "to divide, separate" (10c.), from Latin partire/partiri).

Which leads me to this. Here's one example of a benefit to be gained from etymological analysis to the Tolkien community and to Tolkien as a writer and his understanding within the literary establishment. The whole Middle Earth taxis thing. The eagles. The eagles do not arrive as taxis to rescue Frodo and Sam. There is a compelling reason why they arrive at that precise juncture. They arrive because they are part of the Wheel of Fortune machinery. The hunt. This is the subject of Seth's anagrams. During the course of the Lord of the Rings. The wheel turns twice 90 degrees (see THE TURN). The Powers are the figures of the Tetramorph. Eagle, Bull, Lion and Man. The eagles move from the west into the north when the Fellowship turn through Lorien and the Naith and then they move from the north into the east when the Ring is destroyed- but technically when Frodo fails to destroy the Ring because that failure is the TURN, a fall. If you want me to further illustrate how that works just let me know. Here's the diagram. And this is a symbolic landscape as I keep saying. So the abstract symbolic forms (of the geometry) that Tolkien refers to, the Wheel and the Powers, manifest in the World in the narrative.

If you want to keep fielding that in ignorance, feel free. Ignorance of something does not make you stupid. What makes you a fool is if you're offered an explanation politely with 102 predictions driving that understanding, you dismiss it as...God only knows what goes on in minds like that...

Here's another benefit. The so called cheating that Tolkien was accused of in the fall and return of Gandalf. His fall and return is also part of the Wheel of Fortune. It is not cheating. People just don't understand his work. I was able to make my prediction (#102) about the etymology of 'attentive' from the context of the letter I had quoted on these boards at the end of that thread ("but I have purposely kept all allusions to the highest matters down to mere hints, perceptible only by the most attentive"), because I understand his system. 'Attentive' is from the root 'to stretch'. I guess I must be one of 'the most attentive' that Tolkien speaks of huh? :-D. And note Mindy that he doesn't describe the 'most attentive' as anything else..no offensive words at all for those peeps. And I'm attentive because I actually listen before I gob it about online as some kind of self-inflated balloon. Yeh I've studied the etymology of massive numbers of his words in the text and how they relate to each other as a whole and how he builds structure and linking and echoes and foreshadowing. Narrative technique. And equally importantly I also understand how he drops hints and riddles people. After all that work I understand (much of) his private symbolism. Believe it or not Tolkien is a great writer. And I mean even by the Literary Establishment's highest standards of Shakespeare, Joyce, Dante, etc. And regards philology- 'the love of words'. I've actually given Tolkien the respect that any decent literary critic should. If he tells us in the most clear manner that his works are philologically driven and based, then you should obviously start your understanding by looking at the etymology of his words in the texts right? It's a no brainer. He actually describes the non-philologist critics as the oak, the Enemy. Jeez how more obvious do you guys want it? lol. Now little ole me I just looked at them because I love words, always did, so ironically I didn't approach this at all as a literary critic. The first thing Tom Shippey does is look at the etymology of a word. If you don't care about that that's fine- my philosophy is everyone is different!..but just don't expect to be taken as an expert on his works. You ain't because you don't even speak the same language as Tolkien.

The quote most relevant to his hinting at the Wheel of Fortune machinery:

In which class, as a class not as a competitor, The Lord of the Rings really falls though it is only founded on the author's own first draft! I think the way in which Gandalf's return is presented is a defect, and one other critic, as much under the spell as yourself, curiously used the same expression: 'cheating'. That is partly due to the ever-present compulsions of narrative technique. He must return at that point, and such explanations of his survival as are explicitly set out must be given there – but the narrative is urgent, and must not be held up for elaborate discussions involving the whole 'mythological' setting. It is a little impeded even so, though I have severely cut G's account of himself. I might perhaps have made more clear the later remarks in Vol. II (and Vol. III) which refer to or are made by Gandalf, but I have purposely kept all allusions to the highest matters down to mere hints, perceptible only by the most attentive, or kept them under unexplained symbolic forms. So God and the 'angelic' gods, the Lords or Powers of the West, only peep through in such places as Gandalf's conversation with Frodo: 'behind that there was something else at work, beyond any design of the Ring-maker's' ; or in Faramir's Númenórean grace at dinner. Gandalf really 'died', and was changed: for that seems to me the only real cheating, to represent anything that can be called 'death' as making no difference. 'I am G. the White, who has returned from death'. Probably he should rather have said to Wormtongue: 'I have not passed through death (not 'fire and flood') to bandy crooked words with a serving-man'. And so on. I might say much more, but it would only be in (perhaps tedious) elucidation of the 'mythological' ideas in my mind; it would not, I fear, get rid of the fact that the return of G. is as presented in this book a 'defect', and one I was aware of, and probably did not work hard enough to mend. But G. is not, of course, a human being (Man or Hobbit). There are naturally no precise modern terms to say what he was. I wd. venture to say that he was an incarnate 'angel'– strictly an γγελος:2 that is, with the other Istari, wizards, 'those who know', an emissary from the Lords of the West, sent to Middle-earth, as the great crisis of Sauron loomed on the horizon. By 'incarnate' I mean they were embodied in physical bodies capable of pain, and weariness, and of afflicting the spirit with physical fear, and of being 'killed', though supported by the angelic spirit they might endure long, and only show slowly the wearing of care and labour.

*The passage through fire and flood is a reference to the geometry and his chessboard scheme which he took form Alice Through the Looking Glass. Gandalf makes the same journey across Rhovanion and the TURN through the Door which the Fellowship make at the Tongue. It's the same journey because the inner spiritual reality is the real one. No time to explain here as it involves the symbolic map.
The reference to Faramir's Númenórean grace at dinner is a reference to planar orientation which is the basis of his system of geometry. You can see a discussion of it in my essay The Riddle of the Hidden Imagery of the West Gate which I posted about on these boards here.

And here's a little illustration of how Tolkien's mind and artistic soul works. It's about Gandalf's *fall* and return.

cheat (v.)
mid-15c., "to escheat, to seize as an escheat," a shortening of Old French escheat, legal term for revision of property to the state when the owner dies without heirs, literally "that which falls to one," past participle of escheoir "happen, befall, occur, take place; fall due; lapse (legally)," from Late Latin *excadere "fall away, fall out," from Latin ex- "out" (see ex-) + cadere "to fall" (from PIE root *kad- "to fall").

So by looking for hidden things and leaving the path of wisdom I've suddenly joined Tolkien on his path ya know with the wizard in Eeriness? Where you can clearly see the geometry? I can now see how the word 'cheat' in this context would be even more relevant to Tolkien. It's derived form cadere to *fall*. And it's even more relevant than that because the machinery (the narrative compulsion) is the Wheel which turns towards a fall- twice in fact. The compulsions of narrative technique which obviates the need to call yo Middle-earth taxi. HAHA. Go look at his use of the word 'chance' in the Lord of the Rings. Nah scratch that, leave it to them that can be bothered to get off their mental jacksies. Chance is from cadere to fall. And the word chance is integral to the whole Moria episode where Gandalf falls and the whole machinery of the Wheel starts turning. 'Now is the last chance. Run for it! ' I can also elaborate that for you if you'd like. Chance is in fact the cadences in the Music. Cadence also from cadere.

He must return at that point, and such explanations of his survival as are explicitly set out must be given there – but the narrative is urgent, and must not be held up for elaborate discussions involving the whole 'mythological' setting.

Now I knew to look at the etymology of the word 'urgent' because I've got 15 years of the study of the etymology of his works and a good nose for his idiosyncracies, hints and riddle methods. From urge.

Old English wrecan "drive, hunt, pursue"), via a notion of "to weigh down on," hence "to insist, impel." The other possibility is that the PIE root is *ureg- "to follow a track."

And...'mere hints'

from Old English hentan "to seize," from Proto-Germanic *hantijan (source also of Gothic hinþan "to seize"), related to hunt (v.).

So you can see why he drops those hints (using the word 'urgent') because the context he uses it in is the fall, and the Wheel of Fortune -which is the Hunt involving the higher powers. And that's how I was able to predict that 'attentive' would be form PIE root *ten- "to stretch". See the other post.

The Hunt which is hinted at throughout The Lord of the Rings. And that's the Wheel of Fortune. The whole 'mythological setting'. The Powers hunt each other. And that's the deeper symbolism of the Three Hunters. An eagle is described as a hunting eagle AFTER they cross the Naith. The eagles are hunting the bull, the Enemy. And then when the eagles rescue Frodo they are described as 'coming from the north'. If you don't care about his mythological setting and think it tedious what are you even doing on these boards? Tolkien is clearly being self-deprecating in his 'perhaps tedious'. I mean he spent 50 years working on his mythological setting. Clearly he doesn't find it tedious. But he certainly does find critics tedious because...? They don't look at the etymologies and understand his works. 'They always get things wrong' as he told Kilby. Like the 'experts' on here Mindill. Tolkien cared to the point of distraction as Kilby pointed out.

Another major thing to be gained from understanding Tolkien is it addresses a couple of other criticisms which fall under the umbrella 'he didn't live in the real world'. The first is that Tolkien has not included women and thinks they're unimportant. Well I've been stating that his whole mythological setting is centred on the Loathly Lady theme, the Battle of the Sexes and his marriage to Edith. And that centres around the mistreatment of women in both society and in relationships, sex, marriage, and it includes the Virgin Mary and religion too apropos the splits in the church, etc.

That is, the misunderstanding of their place in God's order according to his beliefs and Faith as different yes, but nonetheless, EQUALS. The whole Loathly Lady theme of giving her what she wants and trusting her to not rule over you and only take equality. That's the I Love Sixpence which is part of my Prediction #2. The husband's complaint and supposedly the 'domineering' wife. That misunderstanding and confusion begins at the Discord of Melkor where the geometry is created and the handedness of that geometry begins (Ilúvatar's hand sequence). Why do you think so many characters raise their hands and arms? Why so many references to hands and this going on? See my homepage. That's the secret grammar. Tolkien's system. Nothing to see here move along. Facepalm. haha.

On the contrary women are actually held in (slightly) higher regard than men because they have been given a raw deal in his eyes. Tolkien makes Goldberry the Eldest, not Bombadil. And there we return to 6 and 9 which those numbers symbolize (2 and 6 as well). Those numbers might just be numbers to you but they are symbols of gender inequality and lots of other things to Tolkien- including I might add the death of his Mother and her treatment. And here's a wee insight to add to the many in my posts. The conflicting claims to being eldest: Bombadil and Treebeard. Here's the rub, it's the claim itself which is important because that's part of the battle of the sexes, and the Hands of Ilúvatar and the Discords of Melkor. Go see my previous posts.

The 7 stars for example. They are all female figures in the Histories. They are guiding stars and guide the men through the maze and through the Door to higher rational planes. Like his mother Mabel, his wife Edith and the Virgin Mary. She That is Fallen is the island star of Númenor. And there we have the link between stars and 'She'-That is Fallen and the link between The Star of the North which is restored from where it fell (the south) to the north. The island star of Númenor symbolizes Womankind and Stella Maris, Our Lady, Star of the Sea the Virgin Mary- which links to what I've just said about the guiding stars in Tolkien's life. And that links to Dante's Divine Comedy, Beatrice and Purgatorio. And that's why the geometry matters too. The geometry is the inner spiritual reality (the Music of the Spheres), the inner spiritual journey, which takes exterior manifestation. That's why we see Minas Tirith as obviously a reference to Dante's Purgatory. The Lord of the Rings IS Tolkien's Purgatorio because the Fellowship climbs a spiritual journey just like Dante, through 7 rational planes during the course of the Quest. And that manifests in the incarnation of Minas Tirith with its seven levels and its plan clearly suggesting the classical labyrinth. The plane of wrath is the Moria sequence with the Balrog. It's a medieval symbolic landscape after the Arthurian Romances and views found in the Ancient World. Tolkien's purgatory was his forced separation from Edith during which time he mostly created his geometry. Elrond who withholds Arwen's hand from Aragorn who must prove his worth, symbolizes Friar Francis. Aragorn is Tolkien in this framework. At the end of this purgatory Aragorn marries Arwen and Tolkien married Edith.

But none of this matters right? Just the small matter of Tolkien's Catholic faith, his mother who died young in tragic circumstances, leaving the children orphaned, and his beloved wife and soul-mate Edith.

The Star of the North, which is instrumental in moving the Wheel of Fortune and turning the world the right way up again is given by Silmarien from the Akallabêth. A woman. His entire geometry and narrative cycle on the restoration of the woman to her rightful place (aka transformation of the Loathly Lady into the Lovely Lady) is a statement that 'men should treat women better' and understand that they are different but equal and as a note to self for Tolkien, that he should listen to his wife! And the final beat in the narrative of the Akallabêth is the seizure of the sceptre from Tar-Miriel, another attack on women. And if that's not enough of a hint the Akallabêth translates as 'She That is Fallen', 'The Downfallen'. If none of that is important, well...you'll just have to put up with the shoddy critiques of his works by the oak camp, people who don't understand Tolkien at all and in fact don't even care when offered compelling evidence and argument. Much easier to file it all under 'conspiracy' and 'keyboard warrior'.

A derivative of that is that I get to fight the likes of Germain Greer on her own territory of writer's technique while simultaneously pointing out that Tolkien was still voted the most popular in that famous Waterstones Book of the Century poll by people who are not literary critics at all. She described TLotR as Nazi-tosh'...and that Tolkien winning the poll was a 'bad dream'. And she's a feminist too- so any criticism of Tolkien not respecting women is roundly trounced by the previous point as well. Germain Greer is a person who likes to stand like the guard on the front gate of the Literary Establishment- she's a snob and a proper little shirrif who hasn't done her homework on Tolkien. A.k.a the oak from the lit camp.

This is what it is, Mr. Baggins, said the leader of the Shirriffs, a two-feather hobbit: ‘You’re arrested for Gate-breaking, and Tearing up of Rules, and Assaulting Gate-keepers, and Trespassing, and Sleeping in Shire-buildings without Leave, and Bribing Guards with Food.’

I guess I must be with Mr. Baggins with his clickbait. Again I'm in good company. //grin Tolkien knew about Gatekeepers..don't we all?

The World turns twice during the LotR and in that it appears to be turning on its head. Hence Sam's words in Mordor.

Sam reeled, clutching at the stone. He felt as if the whole dark world was turning upside down. So great was the shock that he almost swooned, but even as he fought to keep a hold on his senses, deep inside him he was aware of the comment: 'You fool, he isn't dead, and your heart knew it. Don't trust your head, Samwise, it is not the best part of you. The trouble with you is that you never really had any hope. Now what is to be done? ' Fur the moment nothing, but to prop himself against the unmoving stone and listen, listen to the vile orc-voices.

The head thinks it knows where UP is but the heart knows better and that's why Sam's heart is instrumental in the journey and why he was chosen to accompany Frodo by Gandalf. This is a reference to the machinery turning the world on its head which is at work. Sam is one of the 'attentive' ones. In other words, he's got a good heart. That's the geometric language and 'the path of the heart' which I understand after a LOT of work and you don't after doing NO work. Seems like a reasonable outcome. The whole world is confused. 9 is up and 6 is down. If you understood the 6 and 9 you would understand that they are the two spirals of the Two Trees that go up and down to heaven and hell. The vile orc voices are those people who don't understand 6 from 9, up from down. Got some big news for ya'll. The map of the Lord of the Rings is a symbolic landscape and can only be properly understood if you TURN IT UPSIDE DOWN to read it. But hey ho...not listenin don't care...la la la. You're actually looking at a map much like the medieval T-O maps or this one he drew- but one in which the symbolic forms are much more cunningly disguised. Here have a fish //throws Mindil a fish. The spiritual realities were turned on their head at the Downfall, the Akallabêth. That inner spiritual reality, that confusion is incarnate in the symbolic map. And when the world (the Wheel of Fortune) turns twice by 90 degrees, turning on its head, it actually rights itself because...? It was already turned on is head to start with- at the Downfall. And that's Tolkien's implementation of the Eucatastrophe. Where the apparent inevitable fall to certain disaster produces the happy TURN. And that my friend is why you should care about 6 and 9. His machinery is probably the coolest thing in literature, period.

You can see the overall structure of the Eucatastrophe, the 7 rational planes of the spiritual journey and the machinery of the TURN in the words he chooses to end On Fairy Stories, the seminal essay of his.

Even modern fairy-stories can produce this effect sometimes. It is not an easy thing to do; it depends on the whole story which is the setting of the turn, and yet it reflects a glory backwards. A tale that in any measure succeeds in this point has not wholly failed, whatever flaws it may possess, and whatever mixture or confusion of purpose.
...
Far more powerful and poignant is the effect in a serious tale of Faërie. In such stories when the sudden “turn” comes we get a piercing glimpse of joy, and heart's desire, that for a moment passes outside the frame, rends indeed the very web of story, and lets a gleam come through.

“Seven long years I served for thee,
The glassy hill I clamb for thee,
The bluidy shirt I wrang for thee,
And wilt thou not wauken and turn to me?”

He heard and turned to her.

'the setting'. The same mythological setting he mentions. Yes it was written before TLotR but his machinery is right there form the start from late King Edward's and the Book of Ishness.

Tolkien's system was most influenced by Plato and Dante. Numerology...patterns not important? So the rhyme of lore is not important then? Clue to patterns in poetry = Rhyme. Rhymes being important for meaning and mnemonics. And stress patterns- clue is in the word 'patterns' haha. Ancient tradition dude. D'you want me to spell if out for ya?

Tall ships and tall kings
Three times three,
What brought they from the foundered land
Over the flowing sea?
Seven stars and seven stones
And one white tree.

And that demonstrates my point. Lore was passed on from one generation to the next and the decline of the Line of Kings illustrates that, if you study it. Fat chance. Lore was passed on often orally- see ancient traditions. And you would be one of those who didn't think patterns were important. Oh dear.

Or the fact that there are 3, 7 and 9 rings with which the Enemy desires to bring about the *Fall* of the Free Peoples which just so happen to match the stations of the cross where Christ *fell*? Got lots of evidence for that- oh from 4 or more years ago now. Tolkien is just being quaint isn't he when he uses numbers *cough*...

Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die,
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them,
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.

Do you think it's a coincidence that the lines 'sky, die' lie' rhyme then? That's a pattern btw. If you understood the 6 and 9 you would understand that they are the two spirals of the Two Trees that go up and down to heaven, the sky, and hell in Tolkien's system of geometry and rational planes- the same journey that the Fellowship take which manifests as the city of Purgatory in his symbolic landscape. And up is where you go to heaven and DO NOT die. And that's the same confusion I just mentioned regards Sam and up and down and the map etc. The Enemy's lies at the Downfall..convince Men that when you go to heaven in the sky you die..there is only everlasting death. The 'Shadows' lie...hmmm..the Shadow is the Enemy and he lies huh? Extracting meaning from a pattern that Tolkien the poet made. Fancy that. Ever considered the possibility of a homopheme in the two instances of the word lie there? And that process of confusion produces the symbolic map of TLotR. The Enemy has convinced the World that down is up and up is down. Not knowing your ar** from your elbow yaknow? Hence why we need to read the map upside down. For the believer, the Faithful (Silmarien's heirs led the Faithful) believe the opposite, that the Door leads to the After LIFE. And you'll find that I said exactly the same stuff about orientation and confusion in my post regarding The Riddles of the Hidden Images in the West Gate. And when the World turns on its head up and down are reversed and the Loathly Lady goes through her transformation into the Lovely Lady. It's all consistent because Tolkien is consistent.

And you can also see the three lines ending three, sea, tree also rhyme in the Rhyme of Lore. The rhyme of Lore is kinda important to the 'mythological setting' and it has this numerology all over it and those God awful patterns. The 3 times 3? Each turn consists of 3 turns (see my essays) and there are 3 turns which move the Wheel of Fortune. There's your 3 times 3 which are symbolized by the 9 ships. 3 x 3 = turns within turns, wheels within wheels c.f Saruman's attempt to counterfeit Tolkien's narrative machinery with his wheels and his desire to "become a "Power" (The Powers of the Tetramorph) and the 'wheels within wheels' in the Book of Ezekiel which is where medieval culture derived the Tetramorph. And then those taxis, 3 of em. So many 3s...could be a pattern. And the origin of Frodo's cryptic words in Mordor 'the third turn may turn the best' which you'll find for good reason at the top of my homepage. Tolkien's Powers on the 4 compass points. And that Wheel restores the Woman to her rightful place, the Loathly Lady turns to the Lovely Lady.

The Ring poem is 8 lines long. They appear at the beginning of The Lord of the Rings for a reason. It's rather important. And there's those rather dull numbers in it. There are 6 books because...? 8 + 6 is the form of the Sonnet (Petrarch again Classical education). The rhyme scheme is ababacca. And you'll find that rhyme scheme to be one of the forms listed for the 8 line block in the Italian or Petrarchan sonnet. And what happens between those two blocks of 8 and 6 lines in sonnets? There is this thing called THE TURN. All good writers that use the form know this. See my website. The same turn that the Wheel of Fortune makes and Fairy Stories should do. According to the traditional form of the sonnet, the 8 lines are 'the problem'. And the 6 lines are 'the solution'. The problem is the Enemy and the Rings, and the One Ring, which is the subject of the 8 line section of the Ring verse. The Enemy seeks to separate Man from God for ever. The Enemy seeks the 'closed circle' that Tolkien speaks (see the quote below) of which is a state of no repentance. The closed circle is a prison. That closed circle is symbolized, in the form, by the two matching lines ending in the word 'lie'. Those two lines are identical. That symbolizes an unchanging state between them. The prison I spoke of. But, if you listen carefully and are 'attentive' enough, there is a key, a way out of this prison. The key is in being able to tell the difference between two homophemes, that is, the ability to be able to spot a lie, a riddle, as it turns out in fact. And that requires you to know your lore- hence the Rhyme of Lore and the importance of patterns. And that requires you to LISTEN before you speak. The two lines end in the two homophemes 'lie', in the sense of to lay on the ground and 'lie', in the sense of to tell an untruth. Homophemes are the subject of his poem Lit and Lang from Songs of the Philologists in which oaks cannot tell the difference between the two. Oaks, otherwise known as 'experts' who do not ever look up an etymological definition because they KNOW_it_ALL. Sound familiar? That's why it appears in the Songs for the PHILOLOGISTS. And that's why they end up in hell- the closed circle. And here's me wasting my time leaving the path of wisdom eh? ha. Poetic form and meaning. Ever encounter that at all? It's all there like a damned good writer should have. And he even uses the same homopheme in the poem Oliphaunt which is delivered by Sam in Mordor...right under your very nose, just to really give y'all a helping hand. From that closed circle there is no progress or escape. The Enemy seeks to stop all growth and change. It's a prison. Rather like the circle, the tomb of the barrow and rather like these forums if you don't watch yourselves :-D. And the solution is the narrative of the 6 books and the spiritual journey through those rather tiresome planes up to heaven. So we have 8 + 6 form of the sonnet. We could extend the analysis and look at the rhyming scheme in the 6 Books and determine which of the available Petrarchan sonnet forms it is modeled on (cdecde or cdccdc or cdcdcd), and indeed what the 'rhyme' is. The TURN between the two blocks is the Downfall at which point all roads becomes bent...into a circle- the same circle in the poem symbolizing the One Ring.

As far as we can go back the nobler part of the human mind is filled with the thoughts of sibb, peace and goodwill, and with the thought of its loss. We shall never recover it, for that is not the way of repentance, which works spirally and not in a closed circle; we may recover something like it, but on a higher plane. [Letter 96 To Christopher Tolkien 20 Northmoor Road, Oxford]

I dunno..maybe Tolkien just likes babbling on about spirals and rational planes...who knows huh?

The 'works spirally' bit? You guessed it. The Spindle of Necessity from Plato leading up to heaven and down to hell and the 6 and 9 again. And that numerology (oops I did a swear word) also extends to the 6 books- the same symbolism the downward spiral to seeming certain disaster which is followed by the Happy turn, which turns the 6 into a 9. That's why Tolkien chose 6 Books peeps. The interesting thing is not that he chose 6 Books but that 6 is the downward spiral evident in the course of the narrative towards seeming destruction. It's not JUST a number- it's the narrative. D'OH. So, if you want to continue reading the map the wrong way up, then don't trouble yourself with trivialities like 6 and 9. No, it won't ruin your enjoyment of anything at all really, it never did mine for decades, happy as Larry me, still am, //smokin but at the same time those people should be wary of taking absurd positions like I'm a Tolkien expert and I already know you're wrong (in the most conceited manner) without even having to read what you're going to say or have written.

And speaking of stanza lengths being important to Tolkien -his influence in Dante 'the supreme poet'. See Tolkien's letter regarding his curious interest in stanza length.

I can get a carbon copy made. It has 101 twelve-line stanzas. It is (I think) evidently inspired by the loss in infancy of a little daughter. It is thus in a sense an elegy; but the author uses the then fashionable (it was contemporary with Chaucer) dream-framework, and uses the occasion to discuss his own theological views about salvation. Though not all acceptable to modern taste, it has moments of poignancy; and though it may in our view be absurdly complex in technical form, the poet surmounts his own obstacles on the whole with success. The stanzas have twelve lines, with only three rhymes: an octet of four couplets rhyming a b, and a quartet rhyming b c. In addition each line has internal alliteration (it occasionally but rarely fails in the original; the version is inevitably less rich). And if that is not enough, the poem is divided into fives. Within a five-stanza group the chief word of the last line must be echoed in the first line of the following stanza; the last line of the five-group is echoed at the beginning of the next; and the first line of all is to wind up echoed in the last line of all. But oddly enough there are not 100 stanzas, but 101. In group XV there are six stanzas. It has long been supposed that one of these was an uncancelled revision. But there are also 101 stanzas in Sir Gawain. The number was evidently aimed at, though what its significance was for the author has not been discovered. The grouping by fives also connects the poem with Gawain, where the poet elaborates the significance: the Five Wounds, the Five Joys, the Five virtues, and the Five wits.
Enough of that. I hope you are not bored.

I hope you too are not bored Mindil. Tolkien wouldn't even have bothered coming on here and telling the 'experts' on here would he? ha. But it's rather important to his mythology because every single poem he wrote in his mythology uses the number system based, at core, on Dante's. So there's Tolkien the world expert in philology and professor leaving the path of wisdom again. Along with Dante, probably the most accomplished poet in history.

The other thing is sex. There's a lot of it in his works. It is after all, according to my theory, about his relationship with Edith. To be honest I didn't really want to find sex..yaknow? heh.. I kinda tried to avoid it..haha...but it's undeniable. And then I read Kilby's book and Tolkien's statement about him writing a 'couple' of sex stories and then I found the images in the West Gate cliff face and others too I might add. I've made 102 predictions so I'm fairly sure I'm right and you aren't. So that sets straight anyone who thinks there is no sex in Tolkien, that Tolkien didn't live in the 'real world' derrr including those in the Game of Thrones crowd who like to say such things.


Well...I dunno...thinking about all of this...I think people should have left Dante's Divine Comedy and Shakespeare's oeuvre well alone, and not left the path of wisdom and done all of that damned analysis of them over the centuries. Dum de dum dum dumb.

I might have taken on a slightly 'smart ar**' sarcastic tone in this reply but I assure you I only come on the boards to talk Tolkien and *be respectful* of people.

Peace.

monks

[Huinesoron]

So, you know that's way too long to respond to, right?

The Downs aren't going anywhere. You can afford to make a single point - perhaps a paragraph or two - and discuss it with people. Talking on forums, there's always a risk of replies getting longer and longer; I can see your instincts run that way (so do mine!). If you keep them under control and keep your posts managable, I think you'll have a much better time.

Please also be aware that the last person we had on here who quoted Priya Seth was exclusively focussed on her theories; he would show up, start a thread on whatever her most recent post was, defend every aspect of that post uncritically and at extreme length against anyone who disagreed, and never posted outside those threads. While you're posting about your own theories rather than hers, you're otherwise acting very similarly. Come join in some of the other threads! Are you excited about the new book? What do you think about Mithrellas? Or look outside of Books - are you going to watch the Amazon series? Do you want to play Password or Werewolf? People are much more likely to engage with you if you engage with the community.

(Also: you keep asking people what predictions they've made. You said somewhere that you've only read LotR a couple of times, right? And not too many of the other books? It's a lot harder to make 'predictions' when you've read the books so many times that it's all stuck in your head anyway. )

hS

[Boromir88]

And I thought people complained about the length of posts in Werewolf!

Saruman's retort to Gandalf immediately comes to mind here...

'Later! Yes, when you also have the Keys of Barad-dur itself, I suppose; and the crowns of seven kings, and the rods of the Five Wizards, and have purchased yourself a pair of boots many sizes larger than those that you wear now.'~The Voice of Saruman

In all seriousness though...

Originally Posted by monks

This is part of the problem. A general point. The fact that people once they accept that their *just might possibly* be some things hidden within Tolkien, then they say "well even if it is true, why should I care, why is it relevant to us?". They move the goal posts. The extremely obvious answer to that is that if Tolkien cared about it, then why the heck shouldn't we? And that's the line people take who don't respect the details and meaning of Tolkien's works- those people who make films and the like. And those same people who are not interested in the exposition, the analysis, will sit there and take umbrage that THEY the film makers etc don't care about Tolkien. Pot kettle black.

For example, most of Tolkien's hidden system is hidden in the etymologies of the words. That's how I arrived at my understanding of it over 15 years. If you don't care about the etymology of words, then you don't care about the same things as Tolkien. And then as critics (all very expert on here I see in their attacks on my posts) Tolkien straight away puts you in the Lit camp, the oak camp, yaknow..the camp with the trolls? Speaking of trolls. And from that point you expose yourself to being extremely wrong in your critique and getting hammered by people like me.

The main umbrage, at least the one I have, with your arguments is the various logical fallacies you seem to enjoy engaging in. For instance, in the quote above your argument that if Person A doesn't care about the same things Tolkien cared about then Person A doesn't care about Tolkien. Or your appeals to authority, like name dropping Clive Kilby. I have no doubt there are many subjects involving Tolkien that Kilby would understand better than me, but Person A "talking to Tolkien" and Person B "not having talked to Tolkien" doesn't necessarily mean Person A's argument is more valid than Person B's.

On topics such as these, I generally defer to what the author said his motivations were...

The prime motive was the desire of a tale-teller to try his hand at a really long story that would hold the attention of the readers, amuse them, delight them, and at times maybe excite them or deeply move them.~Foreward to Lord of the Rings

If you think you've found hidden meaning and messages that relate to your own experiences. Fantastic. It doesn't make your arguments and predictions more or less valid than any other reader's.

[monks]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

The main umbrage, at least the one I have, with your arguments is the various logical fallacies you seem to enjoy engaging in. For instance, in the quote above your argument that if Person A doesn't care about the same things Tolkien cared about then Person A doesn't care about Tolkien. Or your appeals to authority, like name dropping Clive Kilby. I have no doubt there are many subjects involving Tolkien that Kilby would understand better than me, but Person A "talking to Tolkien" and Person B "not having talked to Tolkien" doesn't necessarily mean Person A's argument is more valid than Person B's.

On topics such as these, I generally defer to what the author said his motivations were...

You are accusing me of having an ego? heh. You need to go and read the responses I've had to my posts. There are a lot of very closed minds in the Tolkien Community. They automatically assume that they know way more than you. I will at least argue my case and show the con_ver_sa_tion and the people I'm talking to respect. That is most often not returned at all. And there are a lot of people who try to appropriate Tolkien. Here's a quote for you from On Fairy Stories.

"Recovery (which includes return and renewal of health) is a re-gaining—regaining of a clear view. I do not say “seeing things as they are” and involve myself with the philosophers, though I might venture to say “seeing things as we are (or were) meant to see them”—as things apart from ourselves. We need, in any case, to clean our windows; so that the things seen clearly may be freed from the drab blur of triteness or familiarity—from possessiveness. Of all faces those of our familiares are the ones both most difficult to play fantastic tricks with, and most difficult really to see with fresh attention, perceiving their likeness and unlikeness: that they are faces, and yet unique faces. This triteness is really the penalty of “appropriation”: the things that are trite, or (in a bad sense) familiar, are the things that we have appropriated, legally or mentally. We say we know them. They have become like the things which once attracted us by their glitter, or their colour, or their shape, and we laid hands on them, and then locked them in our hoard, acquired them, and acquiring ceased to look at them."

The Tolkien community needs a serious amount of Recovery. Especially the Gatekeepers. And guess what? Virtually not a single jack man one of them has ever looked up an etymological definition of a single word in all of his books in their whole life. His works were all philology from day one, hence Songs for the Philologists. That is virtually common knowledge in the Tolkien community. And what's more Tolkien even put critics of literature who had not studied philology into the oak camp (as opposed to the birch), the camp of the Enemy, trolls . How more obvious do you need things to be?

Here's one example off the top of my head of how the experts have not used the right approach to truly understanding Tolkien. Hammond and Scull. Loads and loads of great things done for Tolkien and the Community. Respect right? But when it comes to literary criticism of Tolkien they don't have a clue. In their book Artist & Illustrator they comment on an image in the Book of Ishness. A quote from my homepage.

Quote
And in finishing, here’s another classic illustration of how to understand Tolkien. In ‘J.R.R. Tolkien Artist & Illustrator’ Hammond and Scull describe The Book of Ishness:

“The first drawing in the book was Ei Uchnem, to illustrate the Russian boatmen’s song. But except that it includes a boat on a river – a boat with oars, not towed as on the Volga – it is a very free interpretation. It’s swirling clouds and vibrant shapes recall Van Gogh again, or Munch.”

If the esteemed Hammond and Scull had looked at the etymology of the relevant words they would have discovered why he chose to make the alteration.

Russia
1530s, from Medieval Latin Russi “the people of Russia,” from Rus, the native name of the people and the country (source of Arabic Rus, Medieval Greek Rhos), originally the name of a group of Swedish merchant/warriors who established themselves around Kiev 9c. and founded the original Russian principality; perhaps from Ruotsi, the Finnish name for “Sweden,” from Old Norse Roþrslandi, “the land of rowing,” old name of Roslagen, where the Finns first encountered the Swedes. This is from Old Norse roðr “steering oar,” from Proto-Germanic *rothra- “rudder,” from PIE *rot-ro-, from root *ere- “to row.”

Not only would have this revealed the underlying reason why he altered it, but it would have revealed Tolkien’s underlying working method, and a general approach to how to understand both his writing and his pictures and indeed the very close link between them. How surprising that the work of a world leading philologist who repeatedly stated his views on philology versus literature, could be understood through etymology! Furthermore, if they had looked at the words to the Boatmen’s Song they would have found a reference to ‘felling a birch’ and in another translation ‘untwisting the stout birch tree’. Given that the birch was a personal symbol of Philology for Tolkien throughout his life, they might have been able to make more comment on Tolkien’s ‘very free interpretation’.

Unquote.

They don't provide the image- I've not even seen it but I was still able to offer way more insight into that picture than them. Because? My Big boots? Repeat after me: PHILOLOGY. And every single thing I have ever said is backed up by forensic study of his books and letters. And that's how I was able to suss out his system and make 102 predictions. And H&S are considered to be at the apex of the understanding of Tolkien. There is virtually only one exception to that problem: Tom Shippey. But he never applied the time to critiquing beyond what he did. I have. The Recovery and the clear view Tolkien speaks of is provided by etymology as I just demonstrated. And I can go beyond that and explain why he chose the song.

Regards arrogance. What I'm saying is by all means enjoy Tolkien. Do whatevs you want- I did for years before I accidentally fell into this...but don't pretend that a) you have any knowledge pertaining to literary criticism of Tolkien beyond the superficial and b) that you know more than those people who have approached his works like a serious literary critic. Importantly, what distinguishes one from the other is the study of his etymologies of the words in his texts and how they relate to each other.

Name dropping. Nah...because I've read Kilby's book? That's twice I've been accused of name dropping. First Priya Seth's and now Clive Kilby's. What sort of a conversation is that? Ad hominem attacks basically. Dude...it's called supporting evidence. And there's me name dropping Hammond and Scull just then right?

And they doubly should have got Tolkien's reference...

scull (n.)
kind of short, light, spoon-bladed oar, mid-14c., of unknown origin. The verb is from 1620s, from the noun. Related: Sculled; sculling.



Huinesoron's response is sane. He has disagreed but not become abusive or dismissive. He will actually engage (as far as he feels he can or has time) and not just dismiss outright. There will be a lot of incredulity to something as radical as I'm proposing. It ain't radical if you just look at etymologies. I've only just got started. Stay tuned. :-)

monks

[monks]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

So, you know that's way too long to respond to, right?


Please also be aware that the last person we had on here who quoted Priya Seth was exclusively focussed on her theories; he would show up, start a thread on whatever her most recent post was, defend every aspect of that post uncritically and at extreme length against anyone who disagreed, and never posted outside those threads. While you're posting about your own theories rather than hers, you're otherwise acting very similarly. Come join in some of the other threads! Are you excited about the new book? What do you think about Mithrellas? Or look outside of Books - are you going to watch the Amazon series? Do you want to play Password or Werewolf? People are much more likely to engage with you if you engage with the community.


hS

The Book yeh. :-) I read that Tolkien wrote things relating to the phases of the Moon. But I don't think, as far I'm aware, it's been published or released. That info could prove very useful in understanding why it was so important for him in the Lord of the Rings. I have the beginning of a theory and the fact that he did write about the phases encourages me to think that his inclusion of the Moon in TLotR does have the significance I think it does. (I discovered that he had written about the phases after I started to develop my theory). The Moon relates to Aragorn and it also relates to the Battle of the Sexes, the squaring of the circle. Square = male (Moon). Circle = female (Sun). In essence it relates to the Loathly Lady theme.

But, anyway, it will be awesome to see all of the new info. Really looking forward to it.

monks

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Just wondering, monks. Have you read Pynchon's The Crying of Lot 49? Or Eco's Foucault's Pendulum?

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by monks

You are accusing me of having an ego? heh. You need to go and read the responses I've had to my posts. There are a lot of very closed minds in the Tolkien Community.

I think you're having an old argument with someone else here. Boro neither said nor implied that you were egotistical; he said you were falling into logical fallacies like appeal to authority (eg 'this agrees with Priya Seth's anagram, so you KNOW it's true!'). As for 'the Tolkien Community': the Downs is a very small, very quiet corner of the internet, and you've made less than 20 posts here. You've not had 'a lot' of people reply to you, and you don't have enough evidence to say 'very closed minds' - just 'they haven't agreed with me'. Again, I think this is an argument you're making against some other community.

Originally Posted by monks

And guess what? Virtually not a single jack man one of them has ever looked up an etymological definition of a single word in all of his books in their whole life.

That is a wild assumption. Personally I have access to the OED through my library system, and use it all the time - for fun, usually, though I did have to do it for work once ("Why is ferrous chloride called copperas when it doesn't contain copper?" Because it's green, is the rather silly answer.)

Originally Posted by monks

Here's one example off the top of my head of how the experts have not used the right approach to truly understanding Tolkien. Hammond and Scull. Loads and loads of great things done for Tolkien and the Community. Respect right? But when it comes to literary criticism of Tolkien they don't have a clue. In their book Artist & Illustrator they comment on an image in the Book of Ishness. [&c &c]

If you'll take some advice, I'd say you're more likely to get positive reactions by sticking to etymologies (for now) than by posting about numerology. We all know Tolkien was a philologist - I'd wager most of the Downs recall the phrase "low philological jest", even if they can't remember what Tolkien was referring to (the name of Smaug; I had to look it up, though). Drawing out hidden etymological details may lead you down blind alleys sometimes ("'Ring' comes from words that also meant a circle of people, so that's why Tolkien had a Fellowship!!!"), but you can at least support them with specific data. Numerology is... well, to be polite, we'll say 'very subjective'.

A brief example: let's say I conclude for whatever reason that Tolkien's use of the number 7 is because he loved the movie The Seven Samurai. I've not even looked yet, but I Predict(TM) that I can 'prove' this with every instance of 7 in Tolkien.

• Seven Rings - given to the dwarves. Dwarves are a noted warrior race from the mountains. Samurai are noted warriors from Japan, which is basically a string of mountains in the sea.
• Seven Fathers/Houses of the Dwarves - same thing.
• Seven Palantiri - By the War of the Ring, only three of the Palantiri survive. By the end of the film, only three of the samurai survive.
• Seven sons of Feanor - warriors again, obviously. The sons of Feanor are orphans - there's a whole thing in the film about one of the samurai being an orphan. The sons of Feanor burn all sorts of things, including 'enemy' settlements - the samurai open Part Two by burning an enemy camp. There's even multiple samurai dying to kill an enemy leader, just like how Celegorm kills and is killed by Dior in Doriath.
• Seven stars - The Seven Samurai is noted as an influence on Star Wars. Just like Tolkien to put multiple layers into his references, eh? Sure, he was dead by that point, but why let that stop him?

All this, without ever even seeing the film! I must be onto something here, right? There's just so many links!

... to a film that came out after LotR was written. Your theories are more historically plausible than this (they could hardly be less!), but this is basically how they sound. My advice would be to post about your (possible) discoveries in the etymology, and put a link to your site in your signature ("For more details on my theories about The Turn and Tolkien's use of numbers, see..."). That way, people who are interested can easily find it, but you won't have to spend every thread listening to "Tolkien wasn't a numerologist/numerology is nonsense".

Originally Posted by monks

Huinesoron's response is sane. He has disagreed but not become abusive or dismissive. He will actually engage (as far as he feels he can or has time) and not just dismiss outright.

I wouldn't put too much stock in my habit of 'engaging' with things I think are wrong. It's a personality flaw of mine.

Originally Posted by monks

The Book [&c]

There's a thread for that! The Downs likes to keep its threads at least vaguely on topic, so replies like this are best suited for the original thread.

hS

[monks]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Just wondering, monks. Have you read Pynchon's The Crying of Lot 49? Or Eco's Foucault's Pendulum?

Hi William, nice to meet you. :-)
No I haven't. What's your point exactly? Nothing to add about the Hammond and Scull example? Have you read my posts yet?Anyway..there are a lot of books I'd love to read but my research takes up WAY too much time mate. A friend of mine thought very highly of Pynchon's 'Gravity's Rainbow'.

As I've said to Huinesoron, I've not even read most of the H.O.M.E cover to cover. I've bumped into lots of things in my research in those books- that is searches on words and contexts of those words. I don't have to hide that fact because I was still able to 1) make 102 predictions 2) find and explain those images on the West Gate 3) explain Seth's anagrams. 4) Have clearer insights than experts into pictures that I've never even seen. Because...I've read an enormous number of etymologies of words in his texts and studied his texts and letters forensically in that manner (my method)..and I know Tolkien's methods (both as a writer and as a riddler) and his system. I can have insights into pictures I've never even seen because the reality of his works are in the hidden realm of etymology. Every word you look at- the real meaning of how Tolkien used it- is hidden to us as non-philologists.

Btw, you are reading the Lord of the Rings map upside down boys. It's a medieval symbolic landscape like this map and this one and the medieval T-O maps, like the landscapes of the Arthurian Romances, like Charles Williams' Taliessin through Logres. And you've all missed it. D'you want me to elaborate? Have a fish.

Hammond and Scull had already spotted the butterfly disguised in the image 'Undertenishness' . That's just the tip if the iceberg.

Did you see this lady hidden in this image?
Do you see the hidden figures in the West Gate?
Did you see the two figures here? That's the Loathly Lady theme.
Did you see these wings and this apparition in this image?
Do you see the geometry of the rune Dagaz?
He reuses that in other images such as his drawing of Helm's Deep and twice (here and here)in his Book Mr Bliss.
Do you see these hidden images in the West Gate?
Did you see the woman with her cloak with its left wing oustretched (the same wing in Seth's anagram MINE HOLE FALL HELD LEFT WING and the same wing in the butterfly rune).
Do you see the Balrog as the inverse of that woman here? Turn the picture upside down- just like the TLotR map in fact.

The hidden images are there because it's all manifestations of his geometry in his medieval symbolic landscape and he uses the same system in ALL of his works.


So you didn't see them. There's more too...a LOT more. If folks can all stop dismissing me, we might as a community clean those windows. Hey, I missed those wings in 'Before' even after looking at that image many many times- because I've studied it and used it as evidence in arguments as the 'butterfly rune' dagaz = the Door. The same butterfly in Undertenishness. And then I found the drawn wings- which are the same wings as those in the butterfly rune and in Seth's anagram. It just shows you how easy it is to become blind through familiarity and believe that you 'know' what you're looking at. What's more I can explain the symbolism of all of those images too. And important to state, I found those images AFTER I'd worked his system out from the etymologies. See my response to Boromir88 above:

We need, in any case, to clean our windows; so that the things seen clearly may be freed from the drab blur of triteness or familiarity—from possessiveness. Of all faces those of our familiares are the ones both most difficult to play fantastic tricks with, and most difficult really to see with fresh attention, perceiving their likeness and unlikeness: that they are faces, and yet unique faces. This triteness is really the penalty of “appropriation”: the things that are trite, or (in a bad sense) familiar, are the things that we have appropriated, legally or mentally. We say we know them.

D'you see what he's doing? The same faces he's hidden in his pictures. And he's dropping major hints there because that's what he DOES.

I will have to drag you all kicking and screaming into the world of Tolkien, the English language as HE USED IT. It's all hidden in plain sight in front of you right under your noses. It's not a dark art and I'm not Nostradamus or Dan Brown . Just look at the etymologies for goodness sake. No brainer! If people haven't got time. Fair enough. I have. And if you're not interested in such things, also fair enough but, to those people, don't turn up into my posts and pretend you already know that I'm wrong wrong wrong. If you'd all written this post off as "clickbait" like Morthoron has done you would never have learned that about why Tolkien chose the Russian Boatmen's Song and drew that image would you all? And you might even consider that to not be hardly worth knowing. But the big take away from that detail as I pointed out is that you are all using the wrong METHOD to understand Tolkien. And that the experts are not as expert as everyone thinks. Multiply that little moment of insight by a couple of orders of magnitude, and you arrive where I am. I'd like to SHARE that insight. I am NOT smarter than everyone else. I even make it VERY clear on my homepage that this all began through LUCK and the real smarts are with Tolkien because HE HAS A SYSTEM and is predictable. Thanks for reading.

monks

[monks]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

I think you're having an old argument with someone else here. Boro neither said nor implied that you were egotistical; he said you were falling into logical fallacies like appeal to authority (eg 'this agrees with Priya Seth's anagram, so you KNOW it's true!'). As for 'the Tolkien Community': the Downs is a very small, very quiet corner of the internet, and you've made less than 20 posts here. You've not had 'a lot' of people reply to you, and you don't have enough evidence to say 'very closed minds' - just 'they haven't agreed with me'. Again, I think this is an argument you're making against some other community.

If you'll take some advice, I'd say you're more likely to get positive reactions by sticking to etymologies (for now) than by posting about numerology. We all know Tolkien was a philologist - I'd wager most of the Downs recall the phrase "low philological jest", even if they can't remember what Tolkien was referring to (the name of Smaug; I had to look it up, though). Drawing out hidden etymological details may lead you down blind alleys sometimes ("'Ring' comes from words that also meant a circle of people, so that's why Tolkien had a Fellowship!!!"), but you can at least support them with specific data. Numerology is... well, to be polite, we'll say 'very subjective'.

A brief example: let's say I conclude for whatever reason that Tolkien's use of the number 7 is because he loved the movie
[]

Snipped your post- still not got the hang of the boards..heh I'll respond..

There's a thread for that! The Downs likes to keep its threads at least vaguely on topic, so replies like this are best suited for the original thread.

hS

Uhm Boro said I had big boots in his quote regarding Saruman. Of course it's implied with Gandalf's words to Saruman. Saruman wanted to become 'a Power' and replace Sauron who wanted to be King of kings essentially. The boots is a reference to Bombadil: philology. And Bombadil is Tolkien the philologist with a private symbolic language who seems to speak nonsense to everyone. Saruman tried to make a counterfeit with machine wheels of Tolkien's narrative 'machinery' which is the TURN and his *Wheel* of Fortune which turns the world (and the subject of Seth's anagrams). I've got lots of evidence for all of that. And the Powers are those 4 compass points, Tolkien's incorporation of the Ezekiel's Tetramorph: Eagle, Bull, Lion, Man (hint: *wheels* within wheels). But you don't know that stuff- people seem to already know for a cast iron FACT that I'm wrong. If Boromir88 didn't intend that, it's implied in the quote itself.

Anyway, no biggie.

Access to the OED. That's rather cool. I've been considering subscribing myself. At the moment I'm using etymonline and Skeats. I said in the Tolkien Community. The community is a lot bigger than these boards as you state yourself. I've encountered it elsewhere. So has Priya.

Blind alleys? See my reply to William Cloud Hicklin. No it's you who are blind in this matter. You are all reading TLotR map upside down and I've just posted links to more hidden imagery in that reply.

You said, "Numerology is very subjective."

Thanks for the advice, I know you're trying to be constructive.

But no it's definitely not subjective in specifically Tolkien's works. Tolkien took his number system from Dante and developed his own from that which is encoded in the Chain of Angainor. Have you read any of those predictions I've made? Let's extend your analogy. Could you make specific predictions about details of moments in the film *even down to the second* before you even saw it based on Tolkien's use of those instances of 7?
That's what I've done. And not just once. Over a hundred times now. Tolkien has a system. He refers to it in hints in 'A Secret Vice'. Numerology is part of it because he was influenced by Dante and the medievals: numerology in the Bible, folk-lore, Dante, the Ancient World.

26 Predictions to date based on his numerological system. They're all in yellow there.

You can see evidence of the medievals again in his medieval symbolic landscape. See links posted in the reply to William. The famous LotR map is a medieval symbolic landscape.

I've sat on all of this for a very long time. I didn't even speak about it for 10 years. I don't believe in speaking as an authority in something before I've listened (to Tolkien in this instance, and a number of scholars out there inc Shippey, etc). I'm EXTREMELY sure of everything I'm saying.

monks

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by monks

Uhm Boro said I had big boots in his quote regarding Saruman. Of course it's implied with Gandalf's words to Saruman. Saruman wanted to become 'a Power' and replace Sauron who wanted to be King of kings essentially.

Perhaps my Saruman quote was too strong for the point I wanted to get across. I think Tolkien's note at the end of Letter 153 would have been better:

"Not sent. It seemed to be taking myself too importantly."

In this letter Tolkien is writing to his Catholic friend, Peter Hastings on a variety of topics...I believe Bombadil, the trolls in The Hobbit, the nature of Orcs, Gollum..etc. The point being he got to a moment where he stops and never sends the letter, commenting that 'It seemed to be taking myself too importantly.'

In Letter #211 Tolkien a similar point:

I do not ‘know all the answers’. Much of my own book puzzles me; and in any case much of it was written so long ago (anything up to 20 years) that I read it now as if it were from a strange hand.

And thus comes the general snag when using Letters in your research to prove there were intentional and coded messages Tolkien left for us and we all just don't care enough to find them and thus don't really care about Tolkien like yourself or others.

Tolkien wrote a ton of stuff...I mean a ton. And there's more that hasn't been published and there's even more that's been lost. So based on a person's own experiences and research yes you're going to find evidence that supports your arguments. As Tolkien writes in The Hobbit, if you're determined to find something, you will most likely find it:

There is nothing like looking, if you want to find something (or so Thorin said to the young dwarves). You certainly usually find something, if you look, but it is not always quite the something you were after.~Over Hill and Under Hill

Who am I to believe then? The author who wrote a ton, describing his motivations and intentions. Writing correspondence to friends, family and fans saying he doesn't like allegories, which he called the 'purposed domination of the author?' Or should I believe you that Tolkien was lying to everyone as one big elaborate gag and inside joke and that you have discovered the gag? Come on now, of course my reaction is going to be I think you're taking yourself too importantly.

You say you only respond disrespectfully towards others who disrespectfully dismissed your opinions. Fair enough, I see your point. For my part I didn't intend disrespect, but I am trying to explain why I react the way I do to your arguments. Which well, I'll leave at no disrespect was intended, but I think you are unnecessarily heavy handed in your arguments.

I would make this same argument to anyone who claims to know Tolkien intentionally left messages. Even if it's an argument that I'm inclined to believe, I would try to make a counter argument to show the only 'true message' is based on the experiences of the individual reading the story:

The prime motive was the desire of a tale-teller to try his hand at a really long story that would hold the attention of the readers, amuse them, delight them, and at times maybe excite them or deeply move them.

No doubt there are parts of your arguments that sound possible, language and the meaning of words was probably Tolkien's biggest inspiration. Numbers were also an influence...why else would it be necessary for Thorin to have a '14th member' of the company if the number 13 wasn't an ill omen?

A question someone might ask, if you're worried about 13 being unlucky why not just have a few less dwarves? Why did there have to be so many dwarves? Well, 13 appears to be an appropriate, reoccurring number. Theoden has 12 knights as part of his body guard. Barahir has 12 companions. Thorin has 12 companions which could be interpreted as his body guard.

It seems likely to me Beowulf was a contributing element, because the hero sets off with 12 companions plus the thief as the 14th.

Some others don't make sense like your 2 and 6 argument in the Tom Bombadil and Goldberry thread. As that's a different thread and others had addressed the reasons they disagreed, I won't comment further on that here.

I'll take the 1, 3, 7 and 9 great Rings of Power example. Tolkien died in 1973. Wait? Did Tolkien predict the year of his death and leave it as a coded message in the numbers of his Rings of Power? Am I to believe that is a coincidence? Why, yes. Yes it is a coincidence.

With someone who wrote as much as Tolkien there are going to be an endless amount of interpretations and experiences as there are with any large myth. The amount of material there is (and like I said there's more that hasn't been published and more that's been lost) it very much feels like a mythology, which will have many different meanings to each individual. That's truly the only point I'm trying to make and why at least on my end, I quickly dismissed your arguments earlier.

I shall bow out now and and I do wish you more luck in your research. As I posted in another thread, glad you got joy and excitement from Tolkien's story.

[monks]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Who am I to believe then? The author who wrote a ton, describing his motivations and intentions. Writing correspondence to friends, family and fans saying he doesn't like allegories, which he called the 'purposed domination of the author?' Or should I believe you that Tolkien was lying to everyone as one big elaborate gag and inside joke and that you have discovered the gag? Come on now, of course my reaction is going to be I think you're taking yourself too importantly.

No problem. I'm not offended Boro. Don't walk away man. This reply is for everyone reading this thread.

Who are you to believe? Well, you make your mind up after reading the evidence. And the evidence is all there for Tolkien being deceptive. Highly deceptive. You can see those images with your own eyes I posted above to William. I didn't create them. And he must have practiced that art a lot! I would struggle to embed hidden images in pictures like that. The West Gate images = riddle. The bottom section that just so happens to line up perfectly with the top west side one is from the east side! Why the heck would he do that? It's a riddle.

And I've got a LOT more to show. And I can explain ALL of it. The Lord of the Rings map is to be read upside down because the world was turned on its head at the Downfall. It's a metaphor for the Enlightenment versus Faith.

The Misty Mountains are Ancalagon the Black in the medieval symbolic landscape. You can see the jaws clearly at Angmar. We also have the white mountains and then the grey mountains, So we have black, grey and white. We have a chessboard scheme after Alice Through the Looking Glass. And this is how that applies to the geometry of the map. Arnor = black. Gondor = White. Grey = Rhovanion. That 'looking glass' runs through Rhovanion. Hence why we have the Mirrormere and the Mirror of Galadriel both in that space. The jaws of the dragon are at the top of the map. That's the dragon Nidhogg who gnaws at the roots of the World Tree in hell. The root is placed over Niflheimr and Níðhǫggr gnaws it from beneath. Misty is from where Nidhogg dwells..Niflheim ("World of Mist","Home of Mist"). "Far, far below the deepest delving of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he." In other words up is down on this map. Hell should be at the bottom. This is the Tolkien's illustration dragon at the root of the World Tree. It gets better , the World Tree is on the map as well, not just the dragon.

Aragorn's test of his heart at going through the Paths of the Dead at the bottom of the map is a test of his faith. He is going against the beliefs of the Godless World. The Paths of the Dead should be up on the map (=in the sky). And yes up/down on the map translates to up/down in the sky. Explained here. So when they called the river Morthond 'BlackRoot' they were saying the paths of the Dead was in hell. And he has to have faith that that door does not lead to death, everlasting death in hell because down is up. And that's why everyone is so irrationally afraid of that place. And that's why you see the butterfly rune suggested in the drawing of that place as posted above to William. The Door of the Dagaz rune. And that's why we see the 3 lines in the ring verse rhyme: sky die lie. And that's why the gates of Caras Galadhon face south-west- they face towards the Paths of the Dead. The Elves know where up is. Hence "Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky,". The sky being south-west from their city = Paths of the Dead. The word being turned on its head. That's why the fish Uin is swimming down- down to where the dream fish go- which on the map is up. There are lots of other features on the symbolic map I will reveal. Uin is not alone. I could go on at great length with masses of supporting evidence.

And then we have the Acrostic that Adam Roberts found in the Hobbit. Hidden for 70 years or more. Then the Seth Bombadil anagram. And her other anagrams are genuine, including the 5th that she rejected. I can explain them all. They are about The Wheel of Fortune, his narrative 'machinery' and the hunt (3 Hunters). That turns the world the right way up again.

And then you have Kilby- everybody really needs to read that book. Tolkien wrote 'sex' stories..in the modern sense? Tolkien told him he was going to reveal to him things. Secrets. And then you see those images on the West Gate..and it all makes more sense. I've got a few more images with sexual symbolism in them to show.
Everywhere you look into Tolkien you see secrets. Secret codes. Secret Languages. Khuzdul anyone? His rebus. Riddles. Anagrams. Acrostics. A Secret Vice. Codes in his letters to Edith. The Book of Foxroot etc. Fox and rook- both words fox and rook mean to deceive, to trick. He calls Goldberry 'pretty' immediately after she calls him Master more than once...pretty etymology = Tricky. The Master is the same Master in A secret Vice. The little man IS Tolkien.

Secrets EVERYWHERE. Why d'you think he was approached to work at Bletchley Park?

Does that sound like a man who wasn't capable of being deceptive? And consistently on a big scale too. And guess what, Kilby even came up with a word for it: Contrasistency. Consistently contradictory. That fits perfectly. I get the feeling Shippey smelt something as well. And Shippey and Kilby were the only two people to have met Tolkien. So there's something about meeting Tolkien and discussing his work...a glint in his eye no doubt.

And then you have people saying to me oh Tolkien didn't even know himself what he was writing. And Tolkien may have said such a thing. He was lying. Being deceptive. He loved riddling people. If you look at the etymologies of the words he uses you can reveal deception via references to his private symbolism. I mean the new book that is coming out that Carl Hostetter is editing...those tables of events. Does that sound like someone who was just rambling along like Don Quixote? He also said that the book wrote itself. It did in a sense because he was following the logic of his own system and the journey up through the 7 planes. The logic of the book is the TURN through the Doors up those planes. Each turn consists of 3 turns, see my essay. You have turns of small wheels- 7 of them, 1 for each plane. And there are other ones such as the turn of Denethor. Then you have the two large turns that rotate the wheel of Fortune: the falls of Boromir and Frodo's failure to destroy the ring. So you have Ezekiel's wheels within wheels. It's a thing of beauty.

Tolkien didn't come clean probably because there's a lot of sex in there. And that originated from his time he was separated from Edith. An incredibly frustrated young man. He probably thought that he never had any chance of getting published at that point anyway. And the system was set at that point and he stayed with it. He had to settle with playing the riddler which he did even before he created the Book of Ishness anyway: The Book of Foxroot etc. I'm presuming that h didn't want to reveal the sex for whatever reason. He was tempted to reveal at that moment with Kilby because he was becoming famous- there was a buzz. He wanted recognition for his Dantean-Platonic masterpiece. It's up there with the top of the Literary Establishment what he did. Technically it exceeds them all, on a par with Dante's Divine Comedy. The other possibility is that he just wanted to play the riddler. My money is on the first though

monks

[Huinesoron]

monks, you're still throwing out far too many points per post; it's literally impossible for anyone to engage with all of them, so I'm not sure what you're looking to achieve. I'm going to choose just two to respond to. The first is your list of 'did you see's:

• Did you see this lady hidden in this image? -- No. There are two eye-like images at the top of your heavily cropped image - and also four at the bottom. Even if the top two are taken to be eyes, they are no more female than male.
• Do you see the hidden figures in the West Gate? -- No. All you've done is drawn some wiggly lines on clips of a rock face; I have no idea how this is supposed to be 'sexual'.
• Did you see the two figures here? That's the Loathly Lady theme. -- No. I can barely make out what you've done, but it seems to be just outlining some shadows. No figures.
• Did you see these wings and this apparition in this image? -- Maybe. There could be wings, but only because of that vertical line on the right side. The head isn't there, and the shoulders... are a door.
• Do you see the geometry of the rune Dagaz? He reuses that in other images such as his drawing of Helm's Deep and twice (here and here)in his Book Mr Bliss. -- No. Or rather, yes - it's called perspective. Any picture looking straight down a receding road/corridor will exhibit this shape. It's not mystical to draw a straight path.
• Do you see these hidden images in the West Gate? -- No. As far as I can tell, you're just slapping arrows down at random here.
• Did you see the woman with her cloak with its left wing oustretched (the same wing in Seth's anagram MINE HOLE FALL HELD LEFT WING and the same wing in the butterfly rune). -- No, in any of its forms. (Incidentally, you never have explained where the supposed anagram comes from, other than "Priya Seth".)
• Do you see the Balrog as the inverse of that woman here? -- No. There's nothing there.

Much like numerology, pareidolia is extremely subjective.

Originally Posted by monks

But no it's definitely not subjective in specifically Tolkien's works. Tolkien took his number system from Dante and developed his own from that which is encoded in the Chain of Angainor. Have you read any of those predictions I've made? Let's extend your analogy. Could you make specific predictions about details of moments in the film *even down to the second* before you even saw it based on Tolkien's use of those instances of 7?

Okay, I love a challenge. I'm not going to watch Seven Samurai to check predictions about it (and why would I? We're analysing Tolkien, not Kurosawa!), but I will make specific predictions for you. Ready?

• There are at least four named sets of seven in Tolkien - the Houses of the Dwarves, the Sons of Feanor, the locations of the Palantiri, and the Beacon Hills of Gondor. I predict that each of these sets will contain a reference to the names of the titular Seven Samurai. (Predictions 1-4)
• I predict that Tolkien would not stop at four sets of seven. There will be more. (Prediction 5)
• In fact, I predict that there will be seven named sets of seven which will contain references to the Seven Samurai. (Prediction 6)
• I predict that one of these will be found in the Hobbit family trees in the Appendices. (Prediction 7)
• I predict that another will concern rivers. (Prediction 8)
• I predict that there will be a reference to a seven in chapter seven of each book of LotR. (Prediction 9)
• In fact, I predict that the seventh word, of the seventh paragraph, of chapter 7 of The Fellowship of the Ring will be a reference to the Seven Samurai. (Prediction 10)

I have not checked any of these. If they are all correct, will you either concede that Tolkien was inspired by a film that came out after he'd already published the book, or that it's incredibly easy to make and 'prove' specific predictions based on numerology and pareidolia?

EDIT:

For reference, the Seven Samurai, along with Google Translations of the characters in their names, are:

• Kikuchiyo - Thousand Generation Chrysanthemum
• Kambei Shimada - Intuitive guardian / rice-field island
• Shichirōji - Next seven white
• Katsushirō Okamoto - Four white victory / book hill
• Heihachi Hayashida - Flat eight / rice-field forest
• Kyūzō - Long-term storage
• Gorōbei Katayama - Five white guardian / Piece of Mountain

As these translations precede any attempt to prove the predictions, errors are irrelevant - we know there's no actual connection, so who cares if I'm proving a link to the wrong thing?

[/edit]

The quickest one to look at, as a sample, is...

Prediction 10

Excluding the Prologue, and counting Frodo's poem as a single paragraph, the word descibed in #10 is 'with', as in 'overcome with surprise'. Now, the word by itself refers to the fact that [i]Seven Samurai[i] is a story about a group of warriors coming together to achieve their goals. They don't start out as a team - they come together over the course of the story. 'With' is a very apt word here - they fight with each other, rather than fighting separately.

The OED (on which Tolkien worked, mind you!) describes the development of the word 'with' in these terms: These senses are mainly those denoting association, combination or union, instrumentality or means, and attendant circumstance. 'Union'. 'Combination'. These meanings foreshadow the Fellowship of the Ring, Tolkien's homage to the Seven Samurai of his favourite film.

And there are other meanings of 'with'! It's used as a term relating to chimneys, ie fireplaces - and here occurs exactly seven (that number again!) paragraphs after the Hobbits enter a welcoming home. In words such as 'withhold' and 'withstand', it means 'away' or 'against' - and, indeed, just as the Hobbits move away from the Shire to fight against Sauron, we see this remarkably significant word show up!

Finally, since it is a word about coming together, it's appropriate to look at those surrounding words. 'Overcome with surprise' - this is a perfect description of the samurai's raid on the bandit camp at the beginning of Part 2. And how do they carry out that raid? With fire - as in fireplace, chimney - with.

I will come back to the other 9 predictions later, when I have more time. They probably won't be covered in as much detail (I don't have that much time), but I am confident they will all be proven true, and demonstrate the accuracy of my theories with indisputable power.

EDIT2: Found a little time.

Prediction 7

There are seven named Masters of Buckland before Meriadoc the Magnificent. Obviously, as Merry is a member of the Fellowship, he would not be included on a list set at the time of LotR.

The first connection to the Seven Samurai is that the first Master was Gorhendad Oldbuck, with the name 'Gorhended' meaning 'great-grandfather' (it's Welsh). Both his names therefore connect to old age, and who was the first of the Seven Samurai? Kikuchiyo - Thousand Generation Chrysanthemum.

Another link - you didn't think Tolkien would stop at one, did you? - is that three of the Masters have names ending in 'madoc'. See how three of the Samurai's names include 'white' in translation? Those are all the same character - 'shiro'. Three and three - you see?

Prediction 9

This should be fun.

Book 1, Chapter 7: In the House of Tom Bombadil

How many characters appear in this chapter - six, right? Four hobbits, Tom, and Goldberry. Except no: there is a seventh, though we don't learn about it until later. Frodo has a dream, in which he sees a vision which is later revealed to be Gandalf.

Book 2, Chapter 7: The Mirror of Galadriel

The heart of this chapter is Frodo's visions in the Mirror of Galadriel. How many does he see? Well, nine are mentioned - but the last is Sauron, and the first, described at length, is Gandalf. Between these two opposing forces, he sees seven things in the Mirror.

Book 3, Chapter 7: Helm's Deep

Seven warriors appear in this chapter: Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli - Eomer - Gamling (leader of the soldiers of Helm's Deep) - Theoden - and Erkenbrand, who arrives to break the siege. Gandalf arrives with Erkenbrand, but is presented less as a warrior than as a force of nature.

Book 4, Chapter 7: Journey to the Cross-roads

Easy: before the fall of night they halted, weary, for they had walked seven leagues or more from Henneth Annûn

Book 5, Chapter 7: The Pyre of Denethor

Reveals the palantir of Minas Tirith, one of the Seven Stones.

Book 6, Chapter 7: Homeward Bound

Towards the end of this chapter, the hobbits pass the point where they left Tom Bombadil, and think back to their time with him - the heart of which takes place in Chapter 7 of Book 1.

Predictions 'proved': 3. No, 4: Prediction 5 was proved by the existence of the Master of Buckland 7.

hS

[monks]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

monks, you're still throwing out far too many points per post; it's literally impossible for anyone to engage with all of them, so I'm not sure what you're looking to achieve. I'm going to choose just two to respond to. The first is your list of 'did you see's:
hS

Thanks for the time and energy. Haha your predictions. Priceless mate. "Indisputable power"? Where did that come from? If you read my recent reply to William you'd find that I've already distanced myself from any claims to any special powers or gifts of insight. Same with my homepage. You just ignored that. ok dude. Tolkien has a system and you work it out from his etymologies in the text. It takes time but it's a very simple METHOD. And I don't understand why clicking on an image to look at it is so much effort.


I'm going to focus on 2 things. The image 'Wickedness', and 'the Door' because they are connected.

The first image. You said that the eyes are no more female than male. Look at the whole image and look at the long hair falling down to either side from that face: black and red which are the two colours of the Enemy, hence 'Wickedness'. It is a woman. Shelob is found in Mordor. The colours associated with Mordor are red and black. The image Wickedness is the 'Dance of the Seven Veils' which is part of the Loathly Lady theme. The theme is sexual temptation, and the fall of Woman, the dominant predatory woman, the Whore of Babylon in fact. 'She That is Fallen' from the Akallabêth. Hence the spider imagery. (the many eyes, and the spider-like bases of the columns which can be viewed as two feet with the head at the top. And remember it's a symbolic landscape- the symbolic forms don't have to be literal). Shelob is the 'Loathly Lady'. As is the Balrog (after writing my essay on that which I posted a link to on here I subsequently discovered that the Loathly Lady is referred to more than once as carrying a multi-thonged whip...I also posted that update..but that's just a yet another coincidence. *cough*). Both are incarnations of that. Tolkien developed the idea of the veils from Haggard's 'She'. Now note that I only made the connection between 'She' and that imagery after I'd made most of the 29 predictions related to the theme and that image. I discovered the word veil occurs over 40? times in 'She'. I've made no less than 29 predictions around this theme.

Just to take a sampling.

Prediction #71. That Tolkien would describe Shelob as 'loathsome' or 'loathly'. He describes her as 'loathly' ("the most loathly shape that he had ever beheld"). But that's just another coincidence right? ookkk darlings.

Prediction #4. That the meaning and description for Remmirath (the Pleiades) would incorporate the meaning/ description of 'flies'. (sitha 'fly', Sithaloth or Sithaloctha ('fly-cluster'), the Pleiades). (The Book of Lost Tales). But that's just a coincidence right? D'OH! I last read that book 35 years ago.

Prediction #24. That each of the Seven Stars in the Valacirca were butterflies. Again, the Book of Lost Tales: The Silver Sickle The seven butterflies. Coincidence. How did I manage that then?

Tolkien Prediction #25 The strange signs on the left curtain in 'Wickedness'. I predicted that there would be 7 of them." Because? No not Samurai Huinesoron, each one is 'a veil' from the Dance of the 7 veils. The shape of them suggests this too. LOOK. And each has pair of 'holes' in them suggesting eyes -yaknow like the two eyes at the top of the image I pointed out? With her hair over her eyes rather like a veil huh? Nuuu all a coincidence!

Prediction #36 I predicted that the Cirth rune shown would refer to the female in some way, or denoting 'ng' from its visual shape.". NG is a velar nasal. Etymology of velar: "sail, curtain (see veil (n.))". The same curtain, veil in the image. Because? This is the female- the Loathly Lady, the Dance of the 7 VEILS. NG symbolism refers to the words of Gandalf 'through fire and flood'- the crossing over of death. His language is mathematical Huinesoron (see Kilby) and geometric- completely inextricable from the narrative and symbolism. I've already made some inroads into understanding it. And can you see the rune Dagaz there- I did say that these two subjects were connected. More info on my predictions page. Cue 7 Samurai.

Prediction #53 That Tolkien would refer to Shelob as abominable. Correct. Because? The Whore of Babylon is referred to as an abomination.

Prediction #61 That Tolkien would mention the unveiling of the woman 7 times in TLotr. Woman clearly defined as Sun and stars. Moon = male. Correct. See my essay (work in progress!) here. Dance of the 7 veils my friend.

Prediction #62 that the 4th occurrence of the 7 instances of the woman being unveiled would be the instance in the Mirror of Galadriel. Galadriel is part of the Loathly Lady theme. Hence why her phial is used against Shelob. It occurs there because that's the centre of the 7 unveilings sequence 123 4 567 and it occurs in the centre of the geometry of the LotR map (black, grey, white). Grey being Rhovanion and the crossing of the mirror. 4 = plane of the mirror. Tolkien uses a chessboard scheme from Alice Through the Looking Glass. See my latest post to Boro. Cool huh?

Prediction #87 That Tolkien used 3 or 4 instances of the word 'purple' in The Lord of the Rings. Correct 3 times. Why? Because of the symbolism in the West gate imagery. The theme of the Dance of the 7 veils spans the whole book. It carries over from She That is Fallen, continues with the mention of the Remmirath, and ends in Shelob. "And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in er hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication". The cup is the same cup of 'Who now shall refill the cup for me?' of Galadriel. We can talk about scarlet another time. As I've already said TLotR is Tolkien's Purgatorio- modeled on Dante. It's a well honed systematic narrative machine.

So the Door, the Dagaz rune in the landscape.

In the History of Animals Aristotle refers to the soul as a butterfly, psyche. It's found in Homer and Plato too. Tolkien was exposed to Greek at King Edwards and possibly even before. Dagaz = butterfly rune = the Door. The soul passes through the Door to reach higher rational planes including the final passage from life into death. That's why you can clearly see the 'X' suggested in the Helm's Deep drawing leading to the Paths of the Dead. You know the Door there? Extremely obvious relation. And in 'Before' and 'Afterwards' which is obviously the crossing over through the Door. You can see how Tolkien has lined up the rune Dagaz with the megalithic Door on his design for the dustjacket for the The Hobbit. And you have the famous Door in the mountain. Nooooo the door has nothing to do with dagaz at all! He also tried to line up gyfu at the bottom. Again 'X', gift- the gift of eternal life (Death) and sex.

Symbolically Doors in Tolkien consists of two wings- two swinging halves -see etymology which suggests the early doors were like saloon doors with two halves. Hence why he chose Dagaz as the Door- both from the the soul connection and the door etymology. The two wings are male and female which are required to be in harmony to open the door. The door opens at twilight..because? The Sun and Moon are female and male. Etymology twilight = two lights. Twilight = harmony, both in the sky.That's why the Door of Erebor opens at twilight. Naahh none of that is consistent at all The letter 'X' symbolizes the convergence of the Sun and moon- female and male. The two hearts in this geometry in fact.

Each of the 7 stars in the Valacirca is a Door- hence prediction 24 above. Each of the 7 stars are female figures. They guide the Free Peoples through the Histories through the Door. Hence prediction 24. Galadriel = 1st, Arwen the 7th. I've known that for several years Huinesoron.
The flies of prediction 4. The Remmirath are the 7 stars, the females who have been captured by Shelob. Hence why they are in the East (with Shelob) and Tolkien mentions them right at the outset of TLotR. Loathly Lady. Dance of the 7 veils theme ending in Shelob. The 7 stars of the Valacirca in the north were captured at the Downfall ('She That is Fallen'). Aragorn = Orion. Pleiades = the 7 stars (females), symbolizing Arwen 7th star. Taurus the Bull, the Enemy, (who appears both in the symbolic landscape in the West Gate cliff face and in the very obvious shape of page V of the Book of Mazarbul (intended to suggest Maze-Ar(Sun)-bull) and in the etymology of the sound the troll makes when his toe is stabbed. Do check the etymology of 'bellow' when you get a chance), stands between him and the Pleiades CONSTELLATIONS HERE. Fairly straight forward that mate. Oh yeh and Orion is The Hunter...riiiiiiight- that would be the Wheel of Fortune machinery and The 3 Hunters theme I keep referring to. So this capture of the stars (flies) by Shelob is why we see Tolkien give us the hint here with his unusual use of the word webs and the focus on women at the fall of Tar-Miriel who represents womankind who is made to fall (She That is Fallen):

"Númenor went down into the sea, with all its children and its wives and its maidens and its ladies proud; and all its gardens and its balls and its towers, its tombs and its riches, and its jewels and its webs and its things painted and carven, and its lore: they vanished for ever. And last of all the mounting wave, green and cold and plumed with foam, climbing over the land, took to its bosom Tar-Míriel the Queen, fairer than silver or ivory or pearls.

The etymology of web surprisingly gives tapestries. But no non-philologist would associate the word web with tapestries. Tolkien knows that. Meaning "spider's web" is first recorded early 13c. It's a hint. As I said 'She That is Fallen'-which manifests as the Balrog and Shelob. And Shelob eats children as we know. The Akallabêth and TLotR are connected because in TLotR the woman, She That is Fallen, the Sun, is restored to her rightful place in the north. Cue 'The Star of the North' from Silmarien in the Akallabêth. See ALL of the rest of my posts. ALL consistent.

Recalling the Haggard influence I mentioned. 'She' is Galadriel developed from Haggard's 'She', and 'She'-lob is an inversion of her. She That is Fallen is Womankind- the spider Shelob who appears in 'Wickedness' and the 7 stars of the Remmirath (the flies) who are captured (are fallen) by her in her webs.

As a side note. I don't know why anyone would have a problem with the idea that Tolkien has incorporated a motif from medieval literature. I just happened to predict that word 'loathly' would be used to describe Shelob. That's a rare and archaic word. I'd never even heard of it until I bumped into it in my research. And later I discovered that there are folks who have associated Shelob with the vagina dentata. Which is correct. Hence the sexual imagery. And then I discovered that the Loathly Lady is described more than once as carrying a multi-thonged whip. Which agreed with my Balrog analysis. And this one will really annoy you haha. She is also described as most learned and having knowledge in 'DIALECTIC AND GEOMETRY'- those two very things all over my homepage and thesis mate.

Fancy that then.

p.s

I already responded to your statement Huinesoron about numerology being subjective. My response was the obvious:- not in Tolkien's personal system. Hence my many correct predictions pertaining to his use of it. He modeled his works on Dante and Plato. His geometry and dialectic are derived from The Republic and the Timeaus. His numerology was developed from Dante's.

Thanks for the new word pareidolia btw I've not encountered that for a while, forgot about that one. :-) I think you've failed to recognize the importance of the medieval symbolic landscape in his works. But that's to be expected. It's a very new idea to Tolkien scholarship- at least I think it is. That's what the hidden imagery is. It does have a purpose beyond mere riddling. Tolkien touches upon it in the N.C.P where he speaks about Arthur and geometry and geography- the symbolic landscape was found in the Arthurian Romance literature. Tolkien even invented a word 'Garthurian' to describe a 'hidden realm'..haha..(Garthurian Hidden Realm ( = Doriath)....G-ARTHURIAN THUR- 'secrete', guarded, hidden)...mmmm whatya think Huinersoron? The most obvious example is the geometry in the illustration 'Eeriness'. And not coincidentally, that's the first time we encounter his monogram in its final form.

The letters of his alphabet are the material structures of the world just like in the Mystic Talmud -that's why Tolkien has mystic words..and in the ideogrammatic origins of our own alphabet. J = ac the oak, the dragon, see Tolkien's Floral Alphabet letter J. T = birch from the Beth-Luis-nion, the two Rs = wrath of the man and woman 'back to back' as you see in the figures on the West Gate cliff face- the Loathly Lady theme, which just so happens to be the plane of wrath from his incorporation of Dante's 7 Deadly Sins in The Lord of the Rings..yaknow Minas Tirith bearing an uncanny resemblance to his City of Purgatory? //grin. fingers in ears not listenin la la la! That's why there are 10 instances of his monogram in his narrative, in the landscape. It's a symbolic landscape. And that coincides with Seth's book. The monogram does indeed exist in the Moria sequence and also at the North Gate (the two Gates are two sides of the same gate), but not for the reasons that she gives. Her anagrams are about the Wheel of Fortune and the Hunt which begins in the Moria sequence. There are 5 of them. The 5th one refers to the Ring which you can find as the circle at the bottom of the letter J in his monogram. The Ring symbolizes the 'closed circle', the ouroborus -much like the Iron Crown of Melkor. The closed circle is a state where repentance is not possible (from his letters) and separation from God is everlasting. It's found at the bottom of the letter J because that's where hell is. Heaven is the Door at the top of the monogram in the sky where the flame is. The superimposition of the letter J on the letter T in his monogram is the Dragon coiled around the Tree. Its full visualization is the two trees utterly entwined from his wedding poem. Those being the oak and the birch. And yes the right hand male is the oak, the Enemy. But as I've already stated more than once, the influence of the Enemy swaps between left and right hands because of the spiral courses of the Sun and moon around each other. So both male and female are fallen. The letters are also assigned to the Wheel of Fortune. The 4 compass points. NORTH = J = The bull (the Enemy). SOUTH = T = Man (the man primarily represents the plight of the Woman in the Loathly Lady theme). WEST = R = the eagle. EAST = R = the lion. During the rotation of the Wheel during the narrative of the LotR the Woman moves from the south to the top. She is restored to her rightful place, recall the The Star of the North. The Devil moves from the top (N) to the bottom. The 5th anagram is the Wheel itself, the Ring. In the monogram, the two sets of 4 dots can be joined by a diagonal line. That's the plane of the hypotenuse in his geometry, which in his world manifests as the ray of sunlight which you also see in his illustrations. The dots represent the horizontal plane (male) and the vertical plane (female). As such they are the square and the circle which you can find in his heraldry. Their relationship is the 'squaring the circle' which is a geometric metaphor for conflict, the attempt to turn the female into a male- that occurs through a misunderstanding of the role of man and woman in God's order. That begins in the Discords of Melkor when the geometry is created. It's the Loathly Lady theme once again. I covered that in my initial exchange with you regarding the silver sixpence if you remember.


monks

[Huinesoron]

Prediction 8 & Prediction 6

Once again, I was correct in stating that one of Tolkien's sets of seven would be about rivers. In fact, I was more than correct: both of the remaining sevens are sets of rivers!

Ossiriand has seven named rivers, of which the most significant for this discussion is the southernmost: Adurant, meaning 'doubled course'. Adurant contains the famous island of Tol Galen - a clear reference to the name 'Shimada', meaning 'rice island'. Note that this is only one of the names of Kambei Shimada - a Doubled Course indeed!

Note that Tol Galen is the later home of Beren and Luthien, the most significant couple in Arda's history - and Kambei Shimada was the leader of the Seven Samurai, ie, the most significant.

The Seven Rivers of Gondor are very interesting, because Tolkien provided two conflicting lists of them. This reflects the Seven Samurai's theme regarding who can be considered a true samurai.

The 'Gondorian Samurai' is clearly Gorōbei Katayama; this could have been (but wasn't) predicted from his status as second-in-command of the Seven, just as Gondor becomes the second most important battlefield of the Third Age. His name means 'Five white guardian / Piece of Mountain', and check this out:

• The Seven Rivers arise from the White Mountains - two different parts of Katayama's name!
• Five of the seven rivers empty into Anduin. Note the 'five' in Katayama's name. Note also that one of the rivers, Lefnui, is literally named 'Five'!
• If Katayama is Gondor's samurai, then Lefnui is Katayama's river: it marks the western border of Gondor, thus standing as a guardian. (It also appears on both lists of seven, so don't think I'm trying to cheat here.)

Wow, only Predictions 1-4 to go! I think I'm building a really strong case here. I see you've ignored these in your response - when are you going to see the truth about Tolkien's Method, which is that he just really loved those Seven Samurai?

EDIT:

Prediction 1

The Dwarves. Now, there are no obvious references in the names of the Seven Houses of the Dwarves, other than 'stone > mountain'. So what do we do when our prediction is shown to be wrong? Do we give up? NEVER! Let's dig through etymology!

Aha: beard, appearing in the names of the Longbeards, Firebeards, and Stiffbeards, has another meaning: to openly defy or defeat someone. Tolkien, as a philologist, would know this. The term I've rendered 'guardian' in the names of the Samurai is actually two characters - 'guard soldier'. And what do guards and soldiers do? They defy - they defeat - they beard their enemies! The missing 'third beard' among the Samurai is Katsushirō Okamoto, whose name includes 'victory'.

Prediction 2

The Sons of Feanor! This one had me worried; I got all the way through the list before finding anything, but I should have had more faith! Tolkien buried the reference in the seventh of Feanor's sons, Amras, whose Father-name was 'Last Finwe'. Why is this significant? Because of the obvious connection to the Samurai Shichirōji, whose name includes seven (for this seventh son), and... next. Yes, Shichirōji indicated that there would be more after him, but Tolkien flipped that on its head to show how the house of Feanor was utterly doomed - Telufinwe (Amras) is the LAST - there is no NEXT.

Prediction 3

Ah, the Palantiri. An easy one - Orthanc is a tower namd 'the Cunning Mind', which has a clear symbolic connection to Okamoto, 'book hill'. Okamoto's other name is Katsushirō, and Tolkien made use of this as a pun: 'four white victory' became for white victory - that is, the Palantir was part of the plan for Saruman the White's victory!

Prediction 4

The Beacon-Hills of Gondor. We'll let Okamoto rest for a while rather than using 'hill' again. Instead, lets look at the hill Calenhad, whose name means 'green place'. Is this a reference to 'rice-field island', or to 'rice-field forest'? I'd have to look deeper into the Japanese to figure out which, but it's clearly one of them.

As a bonus: Halifirien, the seventh hill, is named 'Holy Mountain'. Holiness... peace. 'Piece of mountain' is the translation of Katayama - and as I proved just now in Prediction 3, Tolkien made use of puns in his referencing! 'Piece of mountain' becomes 'peace mountain'... perfect.

That concludes the demonstration. It's taken me, what, a day to reach a tenth of your oft-quoted number of predictions? If this was something I actually believed, you can bet I'd be able to surpass it within a month. Because this is numerology, and pareidolia, and if you let it take hold of you it will let you prove anything you want.

Or maybe Tolkien was a really big fan of a Kurosawa movie that hadn't yet come out. Who can say?

hS

[monks]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Prediction 8 & Prediction 6



hS

Let's just take the first prediction in isolation.

Tolkien Prediction #71

That Tolkien would refer to Shelob as 'loathly' or loathsome'.

Hardly had Sam hidden the light of the star-glass when she came. A little way ahead and to his left he saw suddenly, issuing from a black hole of shadow under the cliff, the most loathly shape that he had ever beheld, horrible beyond the horror of an evil dream. Most like a spider she was, but huger than the great hunting beasts, and more terrible than they because of the evil purpose in her remorseless eyes.


Why would you or anyone generalize your argument about something that is so specific? Why would you refute that statement of that prediction with a general argument about the nature of predictions? What is the chance of that word being used to describe Shelob? Tell me. And the fact that I included 'loathsome' as the other word is irrelevant because it was made because of the LOATHLY lady theme- the very word which Tolkien used, and he uses it nowhere else in those '600,000' words of the LoTR. You are avoiding the subject. This has nothing to do with the nature of predictions generally -me 'seeing things I want to see' as you are characterizing it. It's about the fact that I made that specific prediction about that specific word occurring in that work to describe that specific character in it.

And I also told you that I'd never heard that word before I encountered the Loathly Lady motif in my research.

So let's deal with the matter in hand instead of avoiding it.

You are avoiding the facts in front of you. And you are avoiding the facts because you don't understand HOW I was able to make that prediction. And I have explained that it was through the forensic study of the etymologies of an enormous number of words in Tolkien's texts and letters over 15 years through which I arrived at my understanding of (among others things) how he incorporates male and female conflict (as I term it left and right handedness in 'the geometry')- the battle of the sexes- which is the subject of the Loathly Lady theme. And just by coincidence that study, that approach, is also something that you have never done.

Do you see the correlation there between not understanding and not thinking it possible and not doing the work and using the method yourself? And it's not like my method is using a crystal ball is it? It's etymology- the very stuff Tolkien lived and breathed and indeed what he told us his works were all about.

That by doing work you have never done, by using an approach that that you (and indeed anyone else) have never used I was able to do something that you can't do, and indeed don't understand. And what's more the efficacy of that method is supported by the Hammond and Scull example. And I make that point. It reveals that my method can give insights into his works that experts don't have, moreover insights into things I have never even seen. And that study of his etymologies revealed an understanding of the relationship of conflict, and indeed specific details of that conflict (the oppression of the female by the male for eg) between male and female which, having encountered the Loathly Lady motif, initiated that prediction.

So let's forget about all of the other predictions and focus on #71 in isolation shall we?

The chances of me being able to make that prediction are EXTREMELY remote. You might expect loathsome- possibly. The odds are not that great for that. But for Loathly it is. It's a very rare archaic word. Moreover I only encountered the word Loathly from the medieval motif, which supports the idea that he used it for Shelob because ...she is the Loathly Lady, or a manifestation of her. And then in addition you have the descriptions about Shelob representing the vagina dentata by others- as I found after I'd made the prediction. The vagina dentata is part of the Loathly Lady motif. So...there you have even more remote probability because clearly other people have identified Shelob with that theme.

And what's more that prediction did not even raise an eyebrow of curiosity from you, never mind acceptance of anything else I've said.

THAT behaviour alone Huinersoron is abnormal because it completely ignores the statistical improbability of that happening. It is YOUR behaviour, not mine, which is abberant or irrational.

And as if that wasn't enough. We can further multiply that irrationality again.

That prediction is regarding the Loathly Lady. And I've also stated that the Balrog is another incarnation of the Loathly Lady motif. And by another remote chance I later discovered that the Loathly Lady is MORE THAN ONCE described in the literature as carrying a multi-thonged whip. Just like the Balrog. I posted the update. And we are actually in that thread. And you knew about the essay before this update. So YOU know about both of those facts.

Now...consider that fact that I arrived at both of those characters being a manifestation of the same thing, via the same method, we can use probability and multiply that chance that I am wrong about my understanding. And we arrive at an even higher statistical improbability. And both of those things, Shelob and the Balrog derive form the same root understanding of the Loathly Lady theme.

So by multiplying that improbability we multiply your irrationality.

And yet there you are behaving in the manner that you are.

The only other thing you can bring to the table is, it was all just a massively improbable chance (and ignore the next 100 predictions waiting to be addressed) or that I'm lying about making that prediction. And to be frank with you, I think the reason why you pointed out that the image I first gave you for the first hidden image (the two female eyes) in the list above, was heavily cropped, was because I was trying to hide something from you- to limit the scope of the possibilities in some way right? And I've just given you the full image and it's actually added more supporting evidence to my initial argument. In addition you made the remark about 'indisputable power' even after me distancing myself from that kind of stuff in this thread. So both of those together suggest to me that you think I'm lying or am suffering from some kind of psychological delusion, ignoring what I'm saying, or any combination thereof. But that's not really the important issue at all here- unless you make it the important issue right?

And yet you still haven't responded to that update on that image of the eyes but posted your bizarre reply.

Again avoidance.

You behaviour IS irrational and it's rooted in the fact that you can't understand the system I'm describing. And if you can't understand the system you have applied your ignorance of that, to every single prediction and contributing piece of evidence. And let's be kind here, the reason why you can't understand the system is because you think my posts are too long and you simply don't have the time to read them or understand them. Well if you don't TAKE the time to read my posts, you'll not be able to understand the system. Obviously. But you still feel justified in your behaviour. So we go round and round in a circle- or rather you do. I'm actually continuing giving you further supporting evidence to avoid that situation and for anyone who might read this thread here or via google.

We can approach each prediction one at a time if you'd like-...shall we try beginning with #71? I already tried that anyway with Predictions #1 and 2..but we can try again.

Those two items: the loathly prediction and the whip update, would at the absolute minimum raise an eyebrow from any rational person. But they didn't. (Indeed the update was described by one lunatic as clickbait.) That is NOT a normal, rational response Huinersoron.

So, in an effort to be constructive, let's try take a few steps back. Let's ignore the system, the other predictions and the images, and any other presumptions we might have made about each other or any misunderstandings..and just concentrate on the statistical improbability of those two facts above regarding the loathly prediction and the multi-thonged whip. And we'll throw in the vagina dentata details too for good measure.

Care to try?

Any time dude.

monks

[Galadriel55]

I was successfully keeping my hands clean until now. But -

Originally Posted by monks

Those two items: the loathly prediction and the whip update, would at the absolute minimum raise an eyebrow from any rational person. But they didn't. (Indeed the update was described by one lunatic as clickbait.) That is NOT a normal, rational response Huinersoron.

monks, are you saying that you're surprised that no one else raised an eyebrow? Let me just follow your logic here.

Premise: A rational person would agree with your claim.
Observation: No one so far agrees with your claim.
Conclusion: All of them are just irrational idiots who refuse to see the truth!

Talking about plausibility, what do you think is more plausible: every single person around you is an idiot, or your premise is incorrect and your claim is in fact NOT something rational people would agree with?

People aren't saying that what you say is completely and absolutely wrong. But it also isn't completely and absolutely right. It's shaky speculation - perhaps entertaining to indulge in, but not something a rational person is willing to accept as absolute truth. I am baffled at how you can accept your conjecture as absolute truth, given that you're not exactly dealing with exact science here.

[monks]

monks, are you saying that you're surprised that no one else raised an eyebrow? Let me just follow your logic here.

Premise: A rational person would agree with your claim.
Observation: No one so far agrees with your claim.
Conclusion: All of them are just irrational idiots who refuse to see the truth!

Talking about plausibility, what do you think is more plausible: every single person around you is an idiot, or your premise is incorrect and your claim is in fact NOT something rational people would agree with?

People aren't saying that what you say is completely and absolutely wrong. But it also isn't completely and absolutely right. It's shaky speculation - perhaps entertaining to indulge in, but not something a rational person is willing to accept as absolute truth. I am baffled at how you can accept your conjecture as absolute truth, given that you're not exactly dealing with exact science here.[/QUOTE]

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Hi, firstly, what's my conjecture? Can we please stick to the post immediately above.

I don't expect it to be accepted as absolute truth. But there is no way that a rational response to those details is to start making broad observations about the nature of predictions (in an aping manner I might add) and inferring that I'm an ego maniac. He's got the time to make those posts and yet he didn't have the time to read my long posts. D'you see what I mean? And I made the point that virtually every link I posted as supporting evidence are pictures so there was no time required. And then instead of following up on my evidence which addressed what he thought about the woman's face he ignored it and went into the ape routine. It was a single click on an image. Regards that, I've actually annotated the image now to help. It is a woman because you can see her hair which veil her eyes. The subject is the dance of the 7 veils.

http://www.thewindrose.net/wickednesswoman/

The two eyes are obvious. The lower eye is her mouth. You can see that he has put a little notch to suggest her nose and the line under the eye-mouth is her chin. The left side of the face is also suggested with pencil marks. You can even see the two eyes to either side of her eye-mouth to be a pair of ear-rings- because this is intended to be a gypsy woman. This is a medieval symbolic landscape (all of his material is)- it's not just riddling. It has a serious purpose and source in the Arthurian Romances.

Anyway...keeping to the post.

In total, the odds of those details above indicating that *I might well be onto something* are too great for that to be a reasonable response. Simply from a probability point of view. And the clickbait response is totally risible yes. As far as I'm concerned he has behaved like an idiot *in that instance*.

What you are essentially saying is how can several (how many?) people 'all' be wrong about something, and I be right? Even when those people probably have not EVEN READ my supporting evidence or clicked on the links. If they haven't read it, then yes they can certainly be wrong. And if 100 people behaved like that, ditto. He's not even read my predictions and he's able to dismiss all 102 made over 15 years in a few days. That's absolutely risible too. 15 years, literally 1000s of etymologies in text and he's banging on about Samurai and thinks he can seriously counter that in two days off the top of his head with no reference to the etymologies in Tolkien's text whatever. Seems legit. It's a complete joke. The Loathly prediction just by itself is very compelling evidence that my reasons for making the prediction are sound. Let's go through each prediction one by one- which is what I intend to do until he is persuaded. If it takes time to accumulate the weight of evidence so be it. Well isn't that the nature of research and new ideas? There is nothing unusual about a position of being right and lots of other people being wrong. It DOES happen. And note it's not about the predictions, it's about proving that the system I'm saying Tolkien has, which makes him predictable, exists.

Here's an illustration of how Huinersoron's mind is working.

Me: "Tolkien has his own personal system of numerology influenced by Dante and it can be found in the Chain of Angainor. Stanza lengths of his poems use it."
Hui: "Numerology is subjective."

In other words he didn't listen to what I said. He had already seized upon 'numerology' as some kind of Dan Brown view of the world. This is..let me repeat...TOLKIEN'S OWN PERSONAL SYSTEM.

I have a friend. He started out being completely unconvinced by every thing I said to him. After 12 months he is totally convinced about everything I'm saying and is now involved in my research. Because I have demonstrated to him the consistency of argument and all of the evidence over a long period. And that's what I'm trying to duplicate here. In my last post to Huinersoron I'm trying to establish a ground zero with a simple starting point of one prediction. And in this case it happens to have developed a little history with the update on the Balrog.

I think the details of my previous post above speak for themselves.

I'm not falling out with anyone- yaknow...but I think this has all spiraled out into a nonsense exchange. :-)

monks

[Huinesoron]

Well, after a busy week I come back to find my behaviour is abnormal (monks post #21), aberrant (#21), irrational (#21), bizarre (#21), an 'ape routine' (#23), and 'like an idiot' (#23). So that's fun. Also that I'm avoiding clicking on an image which I'd already looked at while discussing various parts of the image, and that by continuing the list that I'd already promised to complete, I'm... ooh, all sorts of things.

monks - when you first posted, I went to your website to see what you had. Your predictions page centres on a colour-coded table with no indication I could find of what the colours mean, and no indication of whether you've proven them true or false. The full explanation of them consists of a 200+ page PDF which has no way of skipping to a specific prediction, and is naturally impossible to use on a phone. When you link to things related to your predictions, they are more often than not random pictures with no explanation of what's going on.

Now, it may be that somewhere you have a nice list of separate discussions (such as blog posts) which lay everything out nice and neatly. But you haven't made them intuitively easy to find, and I don't owe you the time to go looking for them. If I'm going to do 'work' for one of my hobbies, it will be 'work' I enjoy - such as, for example, 'proving' Tolkien's love of The Seven Samurai. That was fun. ^_^

(And incidentally, I wasn't inferring you were an egomaniac - I was playacting as one to emphasise the silliness of my theory. Sorry that came out wrong!)

Similarly, no, I cannot just reply to your posts, because your posts are spread so broad. In the one where you said you were going to focus solely on 'Wickedness' and on the Door, you still brought in, what, a dozen different predictions. Once again, I don't owe you the time to dig through and figure out what needs a reply.

And yet, here I am. So: my reply will not cover everything you've said, but will cover whatever pops out to me as important.

1/ I think you're misunderstanding my point about numerology. I'm saying that, whether Tolkien had a system or not, your ability to 'interpret' that system is fundamentally subjective. You can 'predict' things in such a way that they will always be true. I'm not saying you'd do it deliberately! But, for example, your 'seven unveilings' prediction (which your link does nothing to explain) requires you to - subjectively - determine what constitutes an unveiling. I guarantee you I could find something to fit in every single chapter of LotR - but you have predicted 7, and interpreted the book in light of that prediction.

2/ The 'Wickedness' woman: no. The 'hair' comes from beneath the eyes - it's a moustache, if anything, but really it's some quite evocative shading. Could it be symbolically hair? Sure! Just as it could be two opposing forces fighting, or a butterfly's wings, or a giant claw, or or or... it's subjective. You are saying that Tolkien, before Middle-earth was even a twinkle in his eye, already had this system of yours and used it in his private sketchbook. I counter by saying that you're subjectively interpreting the supposed system into his works.

A test for you: here's my deviantArt. Imagine I follow Tolkien's system. Now take a look through my pictures and find the evidence to support that theory. (I'll start you off: there's a diamond of seven women here for the 7 veils, and a string of four Dagazes here.)

3/ Your prediction 71, 'loathly'. Sure, maybe! There's ten 'loath-' words across LotR, and that's the only 'loathly'. It's an unusual word, so going from 'Tolkien described "Her Ladyship" as loathly' to 'he was referring to the Loathly Lady' isn't actually a big leap. Well done on finding that.

But. Several buts, in fact:

• You predicted 'loathly or loathsome'. You were right with the less common word, but you would still be claiming it as true had you found the more common one. The spiders in The Hobbit are 'loathsome'; this now looks less like a miraculous prediction, and more like an easy win that paid off with a bonus.
• Tolkien uses a lot of words to describe Shelob. In that paragraph alone, I count at least 15 distinctive adjectives used of her. You've selected one as relevant to your theory, but had you come in with a completely different theory, you might be just as enthusiastic about 'blotched'.
• Let's assume that loathly Shelob is because of the Loathly Lady. That still does nothing to demonstrate an overarching theme - just that Tolkien knew the phrase (obviously!) and wanted to drop it in - a "low philological jest", if you will. He does that a lot - the most obvious is that Numenor and Eressea are "coincidentally" also named Atlantis and Avalon. That doesn't mean there's a deep Plato theme running through Middle-earth - it just means Tolkien likes references. You think you've found strong links to other parts of the story - but see alllll the previous comments on subjectivity.

4/ Your balrog whips theory reveals something significant. Unfortunately, it's that you're not taking the timeline of Tolkien's writing into account. Balrogs have had whips since 1917's Fall of Gondolin, the first full story of the Legendarium; they weren't given them as part of a theme with Shelob, because there was no Shelob! In fact, at the time the Balrog was written into LotR, there was still no Shelob. Hunt down HoME VII, The Treason of Isengard, and check out 'The Story Foreseen from Lorien' - Tolkien's original plan still had an infiltration of a tower, but that tower was Minas Morgul, and both Sam and Frodo took part! Things like the stone sentinels are in there - but Shelob is not. Tolkien categorically cannot have put the Balrog's whip in as part of a theme with Shelob - because the whip came long before he invented Her Ladyship.

And this is the problem. We know far too much about Tolkien's writing process to treat every word as part of a deliberate plan. Are there references in there? Definitely! Are some of yours actual references Tolkien intended? Almost certainly! But are they part of some larger scheme? To prove that, you'd need to prove from the known timeline of Tolkien's writing that he was actually working to a plan. All your continued talk of etymology attempts to prove is that he could have done it - not that he did.

No doubt I have missed things I wanted to comment on, but this is already a 70 minute post, so you'll have to be content with that.

hS

[William Cloud Hicklin]

This is..let me repeat...TOLKIEN'S OWN PERSONAL SYSTEM

Which is evidenced by which writings of his? Certainly not in anything published to date- perhaps you have privy access to the Bodleian's manuscripts collection?

There is not a single thing in anything known about Tolkien's life or interests which suggests the least interest in numerology or any other occultist mumbo-jumbo (and he deplored those tendencies in Charles Williams).

Apparently my jibe about Foucault and Lot 49 went right over your head- they are both satires of obsessive people who see imaginary patterns in randomness and create great delusional conspiracy theories around them.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

There is not a single thing in anything known about Tolkien's life or interests which suggests the least interest in numerology or any other occultist mumbo-jumbo (and he deplored those tendencies in Charles Williams).

That's the crux of the matter.

It's all well and good (for some, anyway) to parse the works of a deceased author in search of hidden signs and secret meanings.
With the lack of any evidence that said author ever would have intended to impart such things into his products, it's just the "investigator" reading his own inherent biases and beliefs into them.

[monks]

Guys, a reply to all 3 of you if I may

Ok, no worries Hui,

The meaning, his system is hidden BECAUSE?...it's all hidden right under our noses in the etymologies. c.f The Boatmen's Song example I posted. That accounts for most all of why his system has never been understood before now. HE HAS A SYSTEM. The Secret Grammar alluded to in 'A Secret Vice'. His system is based on planar geometry (fundamentally the triangle) which he took from Plato's Republic, on orientation (West-East, North-South opposites) and on the TURN which moves between those planes. Orientation was extremely important in the Ancient and medieval world- ie putting east at the top of maps etc. "To TURN TO" is all over Tolkien's works. He refers to planes and turns a massive number of times in his works and his letters. 'Plain' is also a favourite go-to word of his- which derives from plane. He disguises his reference to his private system in that way.

"miracle", "indisputable power". NO. Etymology. c.f the Boatmen's Song example.

ok ok I'm going to give you a background and the sequence of events very broadly regarding the 'Loathly' prediction #71, beginning with the series of events leading to my understanding of HIS SYSTEM and then specifically the Loathly Prediction.

The Hands system: Ilúvatar's hands. His Secret Grammar.
The geometric model: 15 years and thousands of etymologies and how they relate to each other in his texts -with increasing input from his images too (5 yrs) once I realized they were also part of it. The hands of Ilúvatar sequence is the creation of the right angled triangle you see in 'Eeriness'. 3 hands = 3 planes of opposite, adjacent, hypotenuse. It's important because when characters raise their hands or arms that's the echo of the sequence of Ilúvatar's hand symbolism. Left = TIME-female-Sun (opposite) Edith-Goldberry. Right = SPACE-male-moon (adjacent) Tolkien-Bombadil. Both hands = command-domination of one side over the other (hypotenuse) = conflict and resolution. Wings are also the same symbolism. Sequence of 3 creates 3 planes of triangle. I can concatenate those list of things to both planes because Tolkien assigns EVERYTHING to those 3 planes. So that's the point when Ilúvatar creates the 'soul' of the marriage of Tolkien and Edith- two halves of one whole- hence "2 and 6" half crown of Bombadil-Goldberry, prediction #1. "My other half".
My homepage has LOTS of examples and explains the hands system- all grounded in the etymologies of the words in the text.

I had already determined his grammar of planar orientation and the TURN, and the importance of the cardinal compass directions. Cardinal from "cardo (genitive cardinis) "that on which something turns or depends; pole of the sky," originally "door hinge,".

I then sussed that it was actually a system of rational planes stacked on top of each other- like Minas Tirith in fact- which is his Purgatory from Dante. It's a medieval symbolic landscape just like Dante's Divine Comedy where the inner spiritual reality is manifested in the outer world. 7 deadly sins = 7 tiers of a city. I also figured out that the two trees were two spirals. And that they were also the Sun and Moon and their courses. Same thing. Passage up/down between the planes is via THE TURN through the DOOR guided by the STAR- see "cardinal" above. The turns left or right through the DOOR are the two spirals. A spiritual journey up through planes, just like Dante's Divine Comedy. The Two Trees and Sun and Moon are just incarnations in the World of the ideal form of the opposite and adjacent planes in the triangle created in the Music (and the Vision).

Then by accident I found Hennerson's article in mythlore from 30 years ago= 'Solid Geometry'- he had the basics of the duality (straight vs curved) and that's when I realized that the name he gave it was the correct name for Tolkien's system: a DIALECTIC. I'd already described it as a conversation on my site. I looked up the etymology of dialectic = Greek dialektos, conversation. Perfect. That's what Ilúvatar's hands sequence creates. And then I found Tolkien's source: the triangle in Plato's Republic as representing both a city and the soul and all other kinds of things, and I found the DIALECTIC too, and I also found the Spindle of Necessity. And guess what? The triangle and the Spindle looked remarkably like my models. The Spindle = pole with many circles turned right and left involving turns and upwards progression. You can see the resemblance here. And I also found this in The Republic which describes very well what I had written about his system of planes and doors: you ascend the rational planes through the Door, or descend to hell. "Then, my noble friend, geometry will draw the soul toward truth, and create the spirit of philosophy, and raise up that which is now unhappily allowed to fall down." In Tolkien's system you are drawn onward by the STAR and Faith. The star is at the right angle in the triangle. The right angle IS the Door. The star guides to the door. See the two hearts here. The two hearts are at the right angle = the DOOR. You go upwards to heaven, or downwards to hell.

And then I found Tolkien's statement about the Ananke in his letters...Ananke = Necessity.

Of course I do not mean that the Gospels tell what is only a fairy-story; but I do mean very strongly that they do tell a fairy-story: the greatest. Man the story-teller would have to be redeemed in a manner consonant with his nature: by a moving story. But since the author if it is the supreme Artist and the Author of Reality, this one was also made to Be, to be true on the Primary Plane. So that in the Primary Miracle (the Resurrection) and the lesser Christian miracles too though less, you have not only that sudden glimpse of the truth behind the apparent Anankê2 of our world, but a glimpse that is actually a ray of light through the very chinks of the universe about us. [Letter #79]

In other words God the supreme Artist created an ananke and 'fairy story'. And we can certainly infer the possibility that Tolkien emulated that. And he talks about planes too. BINGO.

And it's by using that whole model that I'm able to make the predictions. His system is a machine- a 'narrative machine' (he mentions the 'machinery' in the Resnik interview) which turns through geometric planes via orientation. Conflict:resolution. The courses of the Sun and Moon are the centre of it all- the template, the blueprint for the interactions in the narrative. The courses of the Sun and Moon are the 'Battle of the Sexes'- again the Loathly Lady theme. During the day the Sun dominates. At night the moon dominates. At twilight they are both in the sky together briefly in harmony and the DOOR opens. The DOOR is another subject -but related. But that's why the two hearts are at the right angle in Eeriness. They are the Sun and Moon of Edith and Tolkien at the Door in harmony. As incarnations of the Music the courses of the Sun and Moon can be regarded as 'the Music of the Spheres' and the geometry as his own personal 'Sacred Geometry' of his marriage. The courses of the Sun and Moon is this way convey increasing and decreasing states of harmony (accord) and discord. Etymology gives PIE root *kerd- "heart." Hence the two hearts. The TURN mechanism itself consists of 3 stages in the narratives, 3 turns of reorientation in fact: spirit->physical->language. That's why I predicted (#6) the appearance of the word spirit, or the subject of, in the first instance of the 3 of Denethor's 'The West Has Failed' after reading Shippey. "‘He is burning, already burning,’ he said sadly. ‘The house of his spirit crumbles.’"Correct. How I do that then? The TURN is 3 turns of re-orientation. The first one is the re-orientation of the spirit. A full analysis of Denethor's turn is in the Turn in Practice. I first found the TURN in the Akallabêth 15 years ago.


Regarding the table of predictions. Fair point. I created the table for more in-depth explanations than what is in the pdf but I was making too many predictions to keep with up with it all. (I'm getting better at it because my understanding is improving.) Just better I copy and paste what is in the pdf into the relevant slots in the table for now. So, thanks for the feedback on that.

Regards 1/ The unveiling. I've made 29 predictions surrounding that theme: the Loathly Lady. The central image in his drawings for that theme is 'Wickedness'. Remember the Loathly Lady is created by the man in his mind. That's the whole point of it. His Fear. That seed of fear and confusion begins in the Discords of Melkor. It's all Loathly Lady-Battle of the Sexes after that.
Two predictions that I made: #4 That Tolkien's word for Remmirath would refer to flies in some way in the etymology. Correct. (sithagong 'dragonfly'(sitha 'fly', Sithaloth or Sithaloctha ('fly-cluster'), the Pleiades).) Now the word Remmirath in no way whatsoever suggests flies does it?
The other prediction #24, that the 7 stars of the Valacirca would be referred to as (specifically) butterflies. Correct. How do the stars in Ursa Major resemble butterflies? There are no references in mythology anywhere to my knowledge. I was able to make the prediction because the butterflies are the DAGAZ RUNE- the BUTTERFLY RUNE-the DOOR.

I could predict that because the 7 stars are 7 female figures in his histories- they guide through the door. And at the Downfall of Númenor they are captured and appear then in the Remmirath (in the East where Shelob is). Like flies in a web, hence the prediction #4 regarding flies. The Remmirath, Borgil and Menelvegor are mentioned right at the outset of TLotR for that reason. This is the first unveiling of the 7. Dance of the 7 veils.

Away high in the East swung Remmirath, the Netted Stars, and slowly above the mists red Borgil rose, glowing like a jewel of fire. Then by some shift of airs all the mist was drawn away like a veil, and there leaned up, as he climbed over the rim of the world, the Swordsman of the Sky, Menelvagor with his shining belt.

Aragorn and Frodo have to free them from the webs ("netted stars", Old English net "open textile fabric tied or woven with a mesh for catching fish, birds, or wild animals alive; network; spider web,",) and restore them to the north. One of the stars is Arwen (Evening), she's the last of the 7, the other is Galadriel (Morning). In the CONSTELLATIONS you can see how the Bull (the Enemy) Borgil stands between Menelvagor and the Remmirath. Aragorn is symbolized by Menelvagor, the HUNTER. See all of my statements about the HUNT. Still more research to do but the 3 stars of Orion's belt are no doubt the Three Hunters of Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas. The Downfall was 'She That is fallen'- and their capture, the 7 female figures was part of that fall. When Ar-Pharazôn seized the sceptre from Tar-Miriel that was the last beat in the narrative of the downfall of the female in the Line of Kings. (Aldarion and Erendis explores that relationship conflict theme between male and female too). That's why Tolkien strangely uses the word 'webs' instead of tapestries in the fall of Miriel ("with all its children and its wives and its maidens and its ladies proud; and all its gardens and its balls and its towers, its tombs and its riches, and its jewels and its webs and its things painted and carven, and its lore: they vanished for ever."). It's a HINT.

The man creates the loathly lady in his mind (again the medieval symbolic landscape idea- inner reality manifests in the outer world). And She-lob is 'created' at the Downfall as the antithesis of She-that-must-be-obeyed = Galadriel. She-lob IS She That is Fallen ('She' being the Marian Galadriel). Hence the phial of Galadriel used against Shelob. That's why Shelob is referred to as Loathly because she is the inversion of the Lovely Lady (that Galadriel becomes after she has passed the test of the Ring). I knew that the theme of 'She That is Fallen' was the battle of the sexes (c.f Aldarion and Erendis for e.g) and that Shelob was an incarnation of the ruin of She That is Fallen but I didn't have a name for it- a source in literature. I just called it 'the Battle of the Sexes'. Then I found the motif of the Loathly Lady. Then I realized and made the 'loathly' prediction about Shelob. Aragorn (and Frodo) have to restore the stars (womankind) back to their rightful place in the north in the Valacirca. The whole Fellowship are involved of course but Aragorn is the principle actor. The butterflies in the Valacirca become flies trapped in webs in the Remmirath at the She That is Fallen. As I've already said She in 'She That is Fallen' is She-lob who is the inverted, antithesis of the Marian figure (the star of Númenor= Stella Maris, the Virgin Mary the Star of the Sea) symbolized by Galadriel (from Haggard's 'She'). Shelob is ruined and fallen. She-lob is 'She' as a spider. That's why Shelob, 'Her Ladyship' is referred to as Loathly because, as the Loathly Lady, she's an inversion of the Lovely Lady which Galadriel becomes after she has passed the test of the Ring. And the 7 stars narrative is why we see 'The Star of the North' of Aragorn- which restores the Stars back to the North- connecting the two narratives Akallabêth and TLotR via Silmarien.
So what's the big deal about the north and the east? That's the TURN= turn of 90 degrees which is a move between the two planes of orientation- more fundamentally it's a TURN between plane of opposite (left hand) and the adjacent (right hand) of the triangle: the DIALECTIC. That's his system- turning between the planes. They are turned (bent) from N to E at 'She That is Fallen' and then restored turned back again.
Another relevant prediction (#25): that there would be 7 of the strange symbols on the left hand curtain of 'Wickedness' because? They are 7 veils. Dance of the 7 veils. Correct. Then I found his source: Haggard's 'She'.There are 44 references to veils. And then there's the Galadriel connection to 'She' and the 'Aiesha Unveils' chapter. The mention of the Remmirath in LotR = unveiling no.1.

And I found this yesterday which made me smile. Regards what I just said about the Remmirath.

Greek Pleiades (singular Plēias), perhaps literally "constellation of the doves" from a shortened form of peleiades, plural of peleias "dove" (from PIE root *pel- "dark-colored, gray"). Or perhaps from plein "to sail," because the season of navigation begins with their heliacal rising.

If you look at sail you see: sail (n.) Old English segl "sail, veil, curtain," from Proto-Germanic *seglom

The same veil/ curtain in 'Wickedness' which has the 7 veils on it. Shelob's webs are grey of course. The stars as the females are doves of peace. And the helical rising = the restoration of the Sun and the up SPIRAL in the Spindle of Necessity. Helix is from Greek helix from PIE *wel-ik-, from root *wel- (3) "to turn, revolve," from PIE root *wel- (3) "to turn, revolve.". TO TURN.


Regards 2/ I am going to field that image to 20 people giving them the annotation that I gave you and I bet that most of them will see the woman. And I'm going to choose people who are not interested in Tolkien. People with no previous knowledge or bias.
Hidden images. As stated Tolkien worked his system out at a surprisingly young age -and stuck with it all his life. It was during the time towards the end of King Edward's and the creation of the Book of Ishness. The Book of Ishness refers to 'Book of Engl-ishness'- England = angle land, the land of angles. The Book of Angle-ishness'.That's why we see so many abstract drawings and the geometry in this one: Eeriness. We know he also studied A.S at King Edward's and Greek because his mods were on Greek. That's where he encountered Greek and A.S. As for the hidden images: it's a medieval symbolic landscape after the Arthurian Romances and after Dante's Divine Comedy. There's a serious purpose behind those hidden images. You can see his allusions to hidden geography, geometry, pattern, Arthur etc it in the N.C.P. Basically TLotR is Tolkien's Purgatorio.

Regards 3/ "You predicted 'loathly or loathsome'. You were right with the less common word, but you would still be claiming it as true had you found the more common one. The spiders in The Hobbit are 'loathsome'; this now looks less like a miraculous prediction, and more like an easy win that paid off with a bonus."

'Less common word'?. lol You mean 'previously unheard of extremely rare word from a previously unheard of motif'. See above for the related predictions as to why I was able to make the prediction. 29 of 'em all interrelated on that theme to date. Shelob was 'created' at the Downfall as the Whore of Babylon (the 'anti-Mary'), the ultimate eschatological manifestation of the Loathly Lady. There are no miracles mate- it's all etymology hidden under your nose.

Regards 4/ Actually I am taking Tolkien's timeline into account. If you read my homepage you'll see it all laid out. Most of what I intend to put on my homepage is there now- though some small parts are still a work in progress.

The geometry that the Balrog is part of -his system- was in effect since the end of King Edward's and the Book of Ishness. That predates The Fall of Gondolin by some years. The Hands of Ilúvatar are the left and right female and male in the triangle DIALECTIC. That's based on Plato's views on the soul as revealed in The Republic- which Tolkien would have been exposed to at King Edwards -I think we can guarantee he read that- it being one of the most influential books on philosophy in the world, and Edwards teaching Latin and Greek, Classics. The Balrog is the left hand. It's actually Edith. In that confrontation Gandalf is Tolkien. You don't have to care about that at all but it is.

All Balrog's are manifestations of the attempted domination by the left hand, (the Sun, the female) of the moon the male in the DIALECTIC. To command and silence them. In the male's eyes as per the Loathly Lady theme it's the female trying to be a male. That domination of the Sun is characterized as a threat by the male who has oppressed the female from the beginning. The fear, the confusion as to their mutual roles of man (Adam) and woman (Eve) are created by the Discords of Melkor. Loathly Lady theme. Melkor's attempt to drown out all other voices in the creation of the Music is manifested in the Loathly Lady theme- the dialectic, the conversation. The Balrog appears as the horrific woman. As does Shelob. Tolkien uses the same motif across both of those characters. Galadriel is in a state of grace and long suffering, she is a threatening, perilous figure, who might swing either way. When she is tempted by the Ring we see the Loathly Lady- the fears of the man in all its glory- the ultimate ruler with total sovereignty over all. But she refuses the Ring and she keeps her grace. She goes into the West- meaning she ORIENTS to the West. TURNS.
He uses the triangle planes (=hands of Ilúvatar- hence why so many hands and raised arms appear throughout his works. c.f Galadriel, wings likewise) and the interrelations between them via the mechanism of the TURN, over and over again. It's his 'narrative machinery' and it's like a symphony where a composer sets out his motifs in the beginning and then develops them: variety and unity (Shelob and the Balrog both Loathly Lady)- ..the MUSIC of the Ainur..the same symphony and secret grammar he alludes to in 'A Secret Vice' because Tolkien IS the little man and the great master who requires very little apparatus to create his system. That's why none of it's written down. He's hinting. A SECRET VICE. Vice etymology = both 'wickedness' and turn and screw (from PIE root *wei- "to turn, twist, bend").
The Loathly Lady motif in his works actually begins *in the World* with the placing of Illuin in the north and Ormal in the south. Their positions are reversed from the very beginning and so the Loathly Lady theme begins. Melkor runs and hides when the Sun first appears. We know Melkor does not like the sun- light- but in the Loathly Lady theme, symbolically that's the male fear of the (dominant) female. And that's the underlying reason why Melkor hates Varda above all. She creates the Valacirca, the 7 stars which manifest as 7 women. Loathly Lady theme again. They are ensnared by him in the Remmirath at the Downfall.

And what's more this understanding solves the conflict between who is Eldest: Bombadil or Treebeard. Neither are. It's the claim itself which is important. Battle of the Sexes = confusion, fear, domination. The female is eldest: Goldberry, the left hand- because it is raised by Ilúvatar and created first. We see that theme a lot. (That's another story from the Talmud Rabbinnic commentaries). You'll see that the whole TURN narrative of Denethor surrounds his confusion about who is the left and right hand between Boromir and Faramir. Again the theme of eldest comes into play.


I've tried my best to stick as tightly as I could to the points but I needed to give you all some background as to how I made the Loathly prediction: the context and the interrelated other predictions which are driven by Tolkien's SYSTEM. And how I came upon the system and how both the Balrog and Shelob can be the same thing. The SYSTEM explains why TOLKIEN IS PREDICTABLE. As I said, no miracles or special powers guys, just HIDDEN etymologies. My homepage really says most of it.

Thanks for taking the time to read and have a nice day.

p.s Hey...I just realized that there might be a fly in the ointment...I realized that I'd not identified Borgil very well. I checked it out on Tolkien Gateway and Prof. Kristine Larsen reckons it's Aldebaran. So I googled Aldebaran.

"Aldebaran is the brightest star in the constellation Taurus and is known as the "Eye of Taurus." The name "Aldebaran" is Arabic, which means "The Follower" because it appears to follow the Hyades star cluster that forms the head of the bull.."

Hahaha! That worked out rather well what with the Enemy being a big eye in Mordor. So my opinion is that it is in indeed Aldebaran....//edit...Aldebaran is actually on that CONSTELLATIONS image I posted!...not very observant me yaknow. Tut.

The Enemy, the Bull is symbolized by the crescent moon. The two points on the moon are known as the horns of the crescent. The bull has two horns. The constellation of Taurus in which we find Borgil also has two horns. You can see the reference to capturing the stars in the following images. The Sun here, the female is trying to hook them back out of the grasp of the crescent moon, the male. And here in his designs for the Hobbit dust jacket and you can see the DAGAZ rune which agrees with what I previously said: the stars are the butterflies, butterfly rune and guide through the door. The crescent moon is the devil in the man, the Moon, the right hand in the system but he blames his guilt on the woman. Loathly Lady.
As for the Enemy coming between the Man and the Woman in the relationship- ie, the discords, this understanding also explains why the bull here in the cliff face comes between these two figures here which lie on each side of the bull. And you can see the two crescent moons in the Two Trees on the West Gate Doors and hinted at by Tolkien here in the drawing.
The Sun, moon and stars imagery appears in the Hobbit, Silmarillion, early mythological explorations and the LotR because it is part of the Loathly Lady theme which I've already stated runs through the entire Histories beginning with the Discords and began at his late King Edward's and Book of Ishness period. You can see the stars escaping from the clutches of the Moon here at the point Smaug the Enemy is dead. Clearly the two horns of the Dragon are the horns of the Moon as well. Dragon = bull= Enemy = all same thing. The Woman is cast as the Enemy by the man- hence the Balrog and Smaug, yes Smaug is also the Loathly Lady. But it's a case of mistaken identity. It's Melkor fundamentally -the discords of Melkor in the Music influencing the will of the Man and Woman. It's symbolism. The crescent moon and the dragon were used on a cover for Roverandom (Hammond and Scull) but I can't verify if Tolkien approved that.

And the Sun and the crescent Moon on the sail of the ship of M-e supports the interpretation of the pleides as being from 'to sail' as noted above. It's a medieval symbolic landscape and the hidden images have a serious purpose.

This is why I could make the Loathly Prediction and the others and this is Tolkien's system. Take your time reading this folks. It took me 15 years.


monks

[mindil]

To the best of my knowledge, in real-world mythology, the sun is always male and the moon female. I don't know why Tolkien switched it, but in any case, sun-moon/female-male in Tolkien does not map onto sun-moon/male-female in anything he adopted from Greek, Roman, Christian, ancient, medieval or any other sources. You can play with it to work it out, but it's not a direct reference.

But now on to the sketch of Wickedness. It clearly has lots of eyes, but nothing else that you point to. The eyes don't even look wicked to me - they look kind and concerned. The sketch also has lots of other hidden pictures that you haven't mentioned. There are two hands with blunt fingers reaching up to the eyes - I think they are trying to help cover the eyes from seeing unpleasant things (from seeing wickedness?), but maybe they are trying to stroke the owners of those eyes to comfort them.

The right-hand arm under that hand has small fingers grasping it under its wrist - those fingers seem to be coming from a third, hidden hand. Maybe that third hand is supporting the right hand, or maybe it's trying to dislodge it from its task, or maybe it's holding onto that hand to support itself. Depending on my interpretation of Tolkien, I can argue whichever I please, but in any case, that hand is there doing something - I wonder why you didn't mention it?

The left arm has lots of little triangles in it. To me they look like smiling mouths. I'm sure they symbolize positivity. They must be related to Tolkien's belief in eucatastrophe as the ultimate outcome of everything, including any wickedness that might be associated with this sketch. But now, actually, those triangles look like articles of clothing. But we know that Tolkien was a prude, and he wouldn't have drawn those. So maybe they are smiles after all.

How about the circle on the right arm? Is it a nose? Maybe it's a heart, and it's on the right, because the male gives his heart to the female. Or it's on the left, looking out, because it's the heart that the female gives to the male? Since we aren't sure if right-left is to be judged looking toward the sketch or looking out of it, we have to leave both options open. But in any case, it's clearly a heart - except that there's a fainter circle below it. That wouldn't be the stomach. What else might Tolkien have drawn under a heart? Can't think of any acceptable bodily organ, so then what could the upper circle be? Perhaps an apple - like the one Eve gave Adam. Now we're back to Adam and Eve and Tolkien and Edith - struck gold! But that leaves the second circle undefined. There was only one apple in Eden, so the lower circle must be .... the snake! Curled up. That's how a circle becomes a snake. So there we are - all sorted.

Now Monks, how could you have missed all these very significant hidden pictures? And there are more, but really, you enjoy these things more than I do, so I'll leave you to find them yourself.

[monks]

More evidence here...if you've read my previous post above which explains the framework of Prediction #71 regarding Shelob being a manifestation of the Loathly Lady motif. I argue that the 7 stars of the Valacirca of the north are captured by the Enemy at the Downfall. Those 7 stars are the Remmirath in the east in Shelob's webs. The 7 stars are 7 female figures who guide the Free Peoples through the Histories. They and Shelob symbolize 'She That is Fallen' at the Downfall. Womankind. Hence 'She-lob'. The 7 stars are captured by the Enemy.
I state above that Aragorn principally, (and the Fellowship) are symbolized by The Hunter, Orion, Menelvagor. That Borgil is the Enemy and is Aldebaran. And that the Remmirath, the Pleiades are the 7 stars- one of which is Arwen, having been captured. Aragorn must rescue Arwen and restore Womankind from that fall. The Loathly Lady theme. Hence the predictions mentioned in the previous post- a few of the 29 to date on this subject -all surrounding the imagery in 'Wickedness'. I have a predictive model. Because? Tolkien's system is predictable, being based on THE TURN.

See image here of Orion, Aldebaran and the Pleides.

The Enemy (Aldebaran) stands between Aragorn (Orion) and the 7 stars -Arwen (Pleiades). Aldebaran is the red eye of the bull, in the constellation of Taurus- the same bull that appears in the hidden images of the West Gate as previously posted on here. And in that the bull also stands between the Man and the Woman. As previously stated. I also said that in the Loathly Lady 'battle of the sexes', the crescent Moon symbolizes the Enemy in the male (Melkor's discords which are manifest in the male: aka evil, the will), the Moon (Sun =female, Moon = male). The Male seeks to imprison and oppress the female.

I just came across this by chance:

But autumn was waning fast; slowly the golden light faded to pale silver, and the lingering leaves fell from the naked trees. A wind began to blow chill from the Misty Mountains to the east. The Hunter's Moon waxed round in the night sky, and put to flight all the lesser stars. But low in the South one star shone red. Every night, as the Moon waned again, it shone brighter and brighter. Frodo could see it from his window, deep in the heavens burning like a watchful eye that glared above the trees on the brink of the valley. [Book II, The Ring Goes South]

The lone star is Aldebaran, the Enemy. Obviously. The Huntsman's moon "put to flight all the lesser stars". Right there is the hunt theme involving the celestial bodies. The idea of the moon chasing the stars is exactly what I've stated regarding the Crescent Moon and the notion that they might be captured. And of course you see it in the pursuit of the Sun by the Moon in the description at the creation of the Sun and Moon as well. The phases of the Moon and its seasonal characteristics are used by Tolkien. That's why it was so important for him to integrate the phases of the Moon into the LoTR. Whaaaaa...? You think he just felt like going to all of that trouble because_he_liked_the_moon? lolz. Bless you child. See my previous post for his incorporation of the battle between the celestial bodies from his earliest legendarium. That's why the crescent moons appear on either side of the West Gate in his early drafts and in the coiling arms on the columns.

For more specific evidence, -LOTS more folks- see my previous post.

Ready when you are peeps.

monks

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I think you're not seeing the forest for the trees. Tolkien's code was much more straightforward, direct numerology associated with his being a seer and prophet. He put it right on the fly-leaf of The Lord of the Rings, for those that have eyes to see:

THREE rings for the elven-kings under the sky
SEVEN for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone
NINE for mortal men doomed to die
ONE for the Dark Lord on his dark throne

3-7-9-1. That of course is the reverse of 1973, and Tolkien knew from his occult studies that 1973 would be the year of his death. That's just one example; every time Tolkien references number he's pointing to a prediction. The Two Towers, of course, forecast the 9/11 attacks.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

I think you're not seeing the forest for the trees. Tolkien's code was much more straightforward, direct numerology associated with his being a seer and prophet. He put it right on the fly-leaf of The Lord of the Rings, for those that have eyes to see:

THREE rings for the elven-kings under the sky
SEVEN for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone
NINE for mortal men doomed to die
ONE for the Dark Lord on his dark throne

3-7-9-1. That of course is the reverse of 1973, and Tolkien knew from his occult studies that 1973 would be the year of his death. That's just one example; every time Tolkien references number he's pointing to a prediction. The Two Towers, of course, forecast the 9/11 attacks.

Clearly J.R.R.T was his time's Nostradamus. Perhaps he really had a Palantír.

[mindil]

No, Palantir is an acronym with vowels added for readability.
P.L.N.T.R. stands for Philologist, Lexicographer, Numerologist, Tolkien Reuel.

The message is that Tolkien himself was a Palantir - he was farsighted and could see from our world and time into Arda's world and time.

It also stands for "planter" because Tolkien planted the light of the two trees into the minds of many generations, illuminating the dark for our earth.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

There's yet a further level of meaning- all his life, he suffered from plantar warts.

[mindil]

Sorry, I disagree. He said outright that he was hobbit, just bigger. Hobbit feet can't get plantar warts.

[Mithadan]

Tall Ships and tall kings
Three times three.
What brought they from the foundered land
Over the flowing sea?
Seven stars and seven stones and one white tree.

Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky,
Seven for the dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die,
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne,

I have previously posted about the recurrence of prime numbers in Tolkien's writing. Let's see, the seven sons of Feanor? The seven rivers in Ossiriand? Not coincidence. Personally, my view is that Tolkien's repeated references to prime numbers is based upon similar practices in northern and even Greek mythology. He was striving for a sense of authenticity.

monks is not the first to seek hidden meanings, codes or numerological significance in Tolkien's writings and I doubt that monks will be the last to do so. monks has certainly dedicated some time to this. I personally lack interest in such musings and have doubts as to the degree that such analysis will yield any meaningful insight. Others here seem to harbor similar doubts. However...

If you wish to actually discuss monks' posts or the subject matter, please do so. If you do not, please feel free to focus your attentions on other threads and, by all means, start some new ones. But please remain polite and respectful.

Thank you!

[Mithadan]

And, yes, nine is not a prime. But then again, the Nine Nazgul did not prevail...

But then why was Gandalf against 13 Dwarves heading to Erebor? And the Seven Gates of Gondolin, the city with seven names, didn't do so well either...

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

I have previously posted about the recurrence of prime numbers in Tolkien's writing. Let's see, the seven sons of Feanor? The seven rivers in Ossiriand? Not coincidence. Personally, my view is that Tolkien's repeated references to prime numbers is based upon similar practices in northern and even Greek mythology. He was striving for a sense of authenticity.

There are also the seven Lords and seven Queens of the Valar.

I am by no means on the level of many of the learnéd on this forum, but the use of seven I've thought a reference to the Biblical number of Perfection.

Originally Posted by Mithadan

monks is not the first to seek hidden meanings, codes or numerological significance in Tolkien's writings and I doubt that monks will be the last to do so. monks has certainly dedicated some time to this. I personally lack interest in such musings and have doubts as to the degree that such analysis will yield any meaningful insight. Others here seem to harbor similar doubts. However...

If you wish to actually discuss monks' posts or the subject matter, please do so. If you do not, please feel free to focus your attentions on other threads and, by all means, start some new ones. But please remain polite and respectful.

Thank you!

You are quite right, of course, and I fall below my own standards of courtesy by needing a reminder.

I ask monks to forgive any rudeness on my part.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Yeah, but did they have wings? (Loathly or not.)

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

Yeah, but did they have wings? (Loathly or not.)

Well, in that context, I would observe that the leading reported cause of death among Balrogs (3 out of 3 cases) is plummeting.

[mindil]

That (plummeting) may be a vote in favor of wings. Things whose airborne-ness depends on wings (birds, planes) will plummet when those wings are compromised. Things that can fly or hover without wings (helium balloons, loose feathers, mists) tend to drift downward when their levitation fails.