Farmer Maggot's Dogs

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

This is Middle Earth, not the UK or any other civilised nation with laws to protect farmers and the public alike.

I would suggest reading further regarding Tolkien's intentions for the Shire. The Shire, according to Tolkien, was indeed England, or at least the long gone England of his youth. There is every reason to believe that Farmer Maggot was a cantankerous but wise rustic fellow that Tolkien met during his time in Oxfordshire (and perhaps chased him out of his fields -- something that occurred to me once in a farmer's cornfield). Other Hobbits were certainly modeled after folks Tolkien knew or were at least architypical of rustics Tolkien recalled from his youth.

Originally Posted by Moonraker

I believe I said I was not saying Middle Earth had a widespread legal system with lawyers. Rohan and Gondor did have formal laws, however. And stealing the One Ring is a major crime, in any world. That is a different thread, little point trying to merge it with Maggot and his dogs.

There is no textual evidence that there were any "lawyers" in either Rohan or Gondor. However, and quite amusingly, there is every indication that Messrs. Grubb, Grubb and Burrowes, the firm that oversaw Bilbo Baggins' estate auction, were indeed attorneys-at-law. The Shire was quite anachronistic with its post office, wills and umbrellas.

[Nerwen]

Let's break this down a bit.

1. "Supernatural". Look Moonraker, you are free to use words in the way you prefer, but please don't "correct" me for not following suit. I employed the word in accordance with both the dictionary and common usage, and will continue to do so.

Originally Posted by the Concise Oxford Dictionary

supernatural adj. attributed to or thought to reveal some force above the laws of nature; magical, occult, mystical.

As you see, it's a very broad term. In the specific context of Middle-earth, I'd have far more reservations about using it to describe, say, Elven "magic" than anything to do with Sauron or his minions.

1. a. What's the point of this, anyway? Earlier you were arguing that Farmer Maggot was being very foolish in even considering his dogs could handle such a formidable supernatural being. Now apparently Khamul's just some old bloke in a sheet, and Maggot's at fault for overreacting. I mean come on, at least make up your mind!

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Let's break this down a bit.

1. "Supernatural". Look Moonraker, you are free to use words in the way you prefer, but please don't "correct" me for not following suit. I employed the word in accordance with both the dictionary and common usage, and will continue to do so.


As you see, it's a very broad term. In the specific context of Middle-earth, I'd have far more reservations about using it to describe, say, Elven "magic" than anything to do with Sauron or his minions.

1. a. What's the point of this, anyway? Earlier you were arguing that Farmer Maggot was being very foolish in even considering his dogs could handle such a formidable supernatural being. Now apparently Khamul's just some old bloke in a sheet, and Maggot's at fault for overreacting. I mean come on, at least make up your mind!

The power of the Nazgul is sourced from a supernatural power, Sauron. Without his input the Nazgul would have been as powerful as the Old Took when he met Maggot. They are not all independently supernatural, unless they practised sorcery from their pre-Nazgul days.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

The power of the Nazgul is sourced from a supernatural power, Sauron. Without his input the Nazgul would have been as powerful as the Old Took when he met Maggot. They are not all independently supernatural, unless they practised sorcery from their pre-Nazgul days.

Once again: this is your personal way of using the word; it is not mine and I am not obliged to conform to your wishes.

Besides which, it's a side issue.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

It is never a case of being right or wrong, more so what you learn from the different arguments for and against, if presented in a courteous and respectful manner to begin with, and not resort to swipes.

Of course, which is why you could have said, "Well, personally I prefer to use "supernatural" only to mean such-and-such, but whatever", and just moved on to address my, you know, actual points.

As for "resorting to swipes"- have I done this? It hasn't been my intention,

[The Barrow-Wight]

Everyone,

Alright, the conversation has gone off topic (probably a long time ago, really) and is now about HOW we are discussing rather than what we are discussing. When you start deconstructing previous posts line by line without adding anything to the actual topic, you are doing it wrong. Let's stop being argumentative, defensive and offensive.

[Moonraker]

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Farmer_Maggot

The above link makes an interesting read on how Tolkien previously attempted to portray Maggot and his dogs when Frodo visited his farm. Not sure just how accurate the source is, however.