Valian year?

[Mumriken]

I just looked through some threads on this forum and found this quote:

a great multitude of creatures, without fear, of many kinds: animals or moving creatures, and plants that are steadfast. There, it is believed, were the counterparts of all the creatures that are or have been on Earth, and others also that were made for Aman only. And each kind had, as on earth, its own nature and natural speed of growth.'

'... all those creatures that were thither transplanted or were trained or bred or brought into being for the purposes of inhabitation in Aman were given a speed of growth such that one year of the life natural to their kinds on earth should in Aman be one Valian Year.'
In this text 1 Valian Year = 144 Sun Years. So that if a dog usually lives 15 years in Middle-earth, it will live 15 Valian Years in Aman or 15 X 144 (for Sun Years). It could not get sick, seemingly, for it was also said: 'For in Aman no creature suffered any sickness or disorder of their natures; nor was there any decay or ageing more swift than the slow ageing of Arda itself.'


If this text was really going to stand, in all ways, for an ultimate conception anyway.

So if at the end of the lord of the rings, Frodo, Bilbo and Gimli goes west. Would their natural lifespans be expanded. Frodo was 50 years old at the time of the lord of the rings. So if one valian year is 144 sun years. Would Frodo live for another 5760 years in Aman and Bilbo maybe a couple of centuries longer? Gimli was 139 years old and a dwarf lives to about 250 years. That is about 111 more years to go. If one would translate that into valian years that would be 15984 more years to go. I don't know I just found the thought of a 6000 year old hobbit to be interesting.

[Inziladun]

I would say that the aging of any mortals in the Undying Lands would not be slowed in any way.
As a matter of fact, it might be the opposite. Recall what the emissaries from the Valar said to the Númenórean king Tar-Atanamir:

'For it is not the land of Manwë that makes its people deathless, but the Deathless that dwell therein have hallowed the land; and there you would but wither and grow weary the sooner, as moths in a light too strong and steadfast.'

The Silmarillion Akallabêth

Though being in the Blessed Realm would have been a healing experience for Frodo especially, as a mortal he wasn't really meant to be there, so I rather think the warning of the Eldar to the Númenóreans could be taken at face value.

[Eäralda Halatiriva]

from what i've gathered as to the nature of aman, immortality is not a property of the landmass itself, but rather its sapient inhabitants; the prohibition against mortals is not about the acquisition of an indefinite lifespan by humans who set foot there, as it is about making a sacred (not holy) space for those with indefinite lifespans. in addition, the landmass of aman is supposed to be free of this so-called "Melkor element" that suffuses middle-earth down to the quantum level.

[Findegil]

I think that what the Elves told the Númenoreans is exactly the fate that a short living creature would have in Aman. It is not that their life would end any bit earlier for being in Aman. Probably they would live even a bit longer since no sickness would come an probably even aging of the body would be slowed.
But Men are bound to leave the world. We have only one example of how the pure state of that fate was meant to look like, and that is Elessar. He becomes satisfied with the result of his live and precives that his role is played. He could have lingered around a bit longer, but it would just have prevented a necessary change for some time. Therefore he decided that the end of his life had come, laid down and died.

In Aman it would have been much more difficult for any Men to be satisfied with his life: If all and every thing around you would be long living indeed, the preception of your own short life would be much different. In your own precetion your influence on anything would be nigeltible. Even so you might have started very improtant chan of events, since changes are slow indeed you would never see even a shadow of any result.
As Men are, generaly they would revolte against that. They would try harder (and as long as possible) to make some impresion. That is what the picture of "moths in a light too strong and steadfast" does imply to me.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Galin]

I don't think the sections already quoted (from one of my posts I think) refers to Mortals or to those special Mortals that were brought to Aman for healing and so on. I don't think Frodo and Bilbo were meant to be included under: '... all those creatures that were thither transplanted or were trained or bred or brought into being for the purposes of inhabitation in Aman.' Granted, 'creatures... transplanted' is a bit open for examle, but I would say Frodo and Bilbo did not recieve a notably longer life span (again if this text were to ultimately hold true even for beasts and the Valian Year).

And I'm pretty sure that in the same essay Aman (which includes a section on Aman and Mortal Men) published in Morgoth's Ring, the idea put forth (as I read it anyway) is that mortals do not age faster in Aman.

Part of the essay Aman and Mortal Men reads...

'If it is thus in Aman, or was ere the Change of the World, and therein the Eldar had health and lasting joy, what shall we say of Men? No Man has ever set foot in Aman, or at least none has ever returned thence; for the Valar forbade it. Why so? To the Númenóreans they said they did so because Eru had forbidden them to admit Men to the Blessed Realm; and they declared also that Men would not there be blessed (as they imagined) but accursed, and would 'wither even as a moth in a flame too bright.'

'Beyond these words we can but go in guess. Yet we may consider the matter so. The Valar were not only by Eru forbidden the attempt, they could not alter the nature, or 'doom' of Eru, of any of the Children, in which was included the speed of their growth (relative to the whole life of Arda) and the length of their life-span. Even the Eldar in that respect remained unchanged. Let us suppose then that the Valar had also admitted to Aman some of the Atani, and (so that we may consider a whole life of a Man in such a state) that 'mortal' children were there born, as were children of the Eldar. Then, even though in Aman, a mortal child would still grow to maturity in some twenty years of the Sun, and the natural span of its life, the period of cohesion of hroa and fea, would be no more than, say, 100 years. Not much more, even though (...)'

'But in Aman such a creature would be a fleeting thing, the most swift passing of all beasts. For his whole life would last little more than one half-year, and while other living creatures would seem to him hardly to change, but to remain steadfast in life and joy...'

JRRT, Aman and Mortal Men

Here the idea of withering even as a moth in a flame too bright is considered, and seems to not necessarily mean (in my opinion) a mortal actually ages faster in Aman.

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Findegil

We have only one example of how the pure state of that fate was meant to look like, and that is Elessar.

Wasn't that also the normal pattern of the Numenoreans in their early years? Akallabeth notes that Tar-Atanamir clung to life beyond the end of all joy and states that "he was the first of the Numenoreans to do this, refusing to depart until he was witless and unmanned" I think there is more said about this elsewhere (not with my books right now) but it makes it sound like Elros and his descendants (and, apparently, all the people) were of the habit to lay down their lives of free will and "give back the gift" - up until the shadow fell on the land.

Still, the details of how they viewed this returning of the gift is not spelled out except in the case of Elessar Telcontar - and that, largely, because of the contrast of having Aragorn conversing with a half-elf who chose mortality only after living as an elf for many hundreds of years --- and that is a unique conversation. The only other similar conversation in the history of Arda (Beren to Luthien as they departed Tol-Galen for the last time on their journey from Arda) was never recorded - at least, never recorded for mortal ears - so we don't know how Beren advised Luthien.

Actually, that conversation would have been doubly unique - since even Aragorn lacked the perspective of Beren (& Luthien). THEY had already died once before.

Fear not, Lu. We've walked this path before. Departing is just the start of another journey - one we will continue to walk together - on into the presence of the One who made all Ea.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

Wasn't that also the normal pattern of the Numenoreans in their early years? Akallabeth notes that Tar-Atanamir clung to life beyond the end of all joy and states that "he was the first of the Numenoreans to do this, refusing to depart until he was witless and unmanned" I think there is more said about this elsewhere (not with my books right now) but it makes it sound like Elros and his descendants (and, apparently, all the people) were of the habit to lay down their lives of free will and "give back the gift" - up until the shadow fell on the land.

Having viewed the responses here, I found another reference to the matter by Tolkien in Letters.

As for Frodo or other mortals, they could only dwell in Aman for a limited time - whether brief or long. The Valar had neither the power to the right to confer 'immortality' upon them. Their sojourn was a 'purgatory', but one of peace and healing and they would eventually pass away (die at their own desire and of free will) to destinations of which the Elves knew nothing.

Letter # 325

That indicates that Frodo, Bilbo, Gimli, and later, Sam, would after arrival in Aman be able to choose voluntarily to lay down their lives and die, even as the Númenóreans. So the 'weariness' felt by Aragorn would come upon them, and then they would know their time had come. Would 'clinging' to life then lead to the loss of their faculties, as happened to Tar-Atanamir?

[Mumriken]

Interesting so their life times indeed would be prolonged.

[Galin]

I don't think the letter necessarily describes that their lives would be prolonged.

[Mumriken]

they would eventually pass away (die at their own desire and of free will

Sounds to me like "EVENTUALLY" and "FREE WILL" suggests their life would be prolonged. How many years we are talking about...who knows. I'd say a hundred or so.

[Galin]

All that need mean (in my opinion) is that eventually their time would come to die (whether brief or long), but knowing this they could then choose to die of free will instead of waiting untill the moment death would naturally take them.

As for Frodo or other mortals, they could only dwell in Aman for a limited time - whether brief or long. The Valar had neither the power nor the right to confer 'immortality' upon them. Their sojourn was a 'purgatory', but one of peace and healing and they would eventually pass away (die at their own desire and of free will) to destinations of which the Elves knew nothing.

The Valar have no right to confer immortality upon them... but did have the right to extend their life span? For myself I don't think so; again I just think Tolkien is comparing their deaths to that of Aragorn.