Narya the Hidden?

[Bill Ferny]

Okay first I find it really strange that you can see Nenya on Galadriel's hand but never see Vilya or Narya on Elrond's or Gandalf's.

From arelendil on the movie forum, Where have the rings gone?

Did Gandalf actually wear Narya, or did he wait to wear it until chapter 9 of book VI? “…Frodo saw that Gandalf now wore openly on his hand the Third Ring, Narya the Great…” Does this indicate that Gandalf was not actually wearing the ring before this?

If so, how does this jive with:

“Take this ring, Master,” he {Círdan} said, “for your labors will be heavy; but it will support you in the weariness that you have taken upon yourself. For this the Ring of Fire, and with it you may rekindle hearts in a world that grows chill…”

Appendix B, RotK

I did some research, but I couldn’t find a text that definitively puts the ring on Gandalf’s hand before the last chapter of Lord of the Rings.

An aside: To what does the statement, "I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor," (says Gandalf, II, 5) refer? I know what Anor means in elven, but what is the Secret Fire, and do these things refer to Narya?

If these questions have been addressed before, please point me in the direction of the relevant thread. Thanks.

[Manwe Sulimo]

Well, I can't answer your questions about Gandalf actually wearing Narya, but I can help (a little) on the last part.

The phrase "The Secret Fire" could have two possible meanings that would fit with Gandalf's character. The first is, obviously, Narya. The Three were kept hidden, or, a secret from Sauron and the general population of Middle-earth (e.g. anyone not on the White Council or one of the Wise). Since Narya was the Ring of Fire, it makes sense that it could be the "Secret Fire".

The second, less likely theory of mine goes back to The Silmarillion. Gandalf was fighting a Balrog, one of the servants of Morgoth, who had once been a Maia and presumabley took part in the Music of the Ainur. The Balrogs, Sauron, and Melkor ceased to be servants of Ilúvatar (or perhaps not...it could be that they were still following the theme and serving Eru) when they brought destruction unto Arda and "subcreated" the Orcs. In this sense, Gandalf's words could mean that he is a servant of the Flame Imperishable, and through that, a servant of Arda, the Valar, and Eru, and that he would destroy the enemy of life and the Free Peoples of Middle-earth. This, however, seems less likely, since Melkor knew about the Flame Imperishable, and so it was probably not a "secert", per se.

Well...those are two cents.

[ December 29, 2002: Message edited by: Manwe Sulimo ]

[tom bombariffic]

Maybe Im wrong, but I thought the elves (or owners of the elven rings) never wore them until the fall of sauron - they were never worn, because they could feel that they were treacherous.

[Voronwe]

To my knowledge the question of whether Gandalf actually wore Narya is uncertain. All that we know, as you have already pointed out, is that he didn't wear it openly.

This thread discusses the meaning of Gandalf's words to the Balrog in some depth. Briefly put, the 'Secret Fire' is the Flame Imperishable, which is in Tolkien's words the 'creative activity' of Eru - the part of Eru that gives being to his creation. I would interpret this as Gandalf stating his allegiance to Eru.

The meaning of 'Flame of Anor' is unclear. It is known that Anor means Sun, of course, but this doesn't help us a great deal. Some have suggested that the phrase refers to Narya. The aforementioned thread gives arguments both for and against this.

[ December 29, 2002: Message edited by: Voronwe ]

[Bill Ferny]

Manwe,

I’m more inclined to agree with the second theory in regard to the Secret Fire, only because of the word “servant”. Would Gandalf be a servant to Narya, or would Narya be a servant to him?

Now if the “Secret Fire” refers to the Imperishable Flame, that makes more sense if Gandalf is it’s servant. However, the word “Secret” as you point out becomes a problem. It wouldn’t be a secret to a Balrog, would it? But it might be a “Secret” for others, especially men. In a sense it could be a secret to a Balrog if on account of its corruption by it’s and Melkor’s evil will it no longer remembers the Imperishable Flame. Heck I don’t know.

Its kind of obvious that the Secret Fire and the Flame of Anor are not the same thing, because Gandalf says that he is the servant of one, and the wielder of the other. So, maybe, the Flame of Anor is indeed Narya.

[Bill Ferny]

Ahh, a case of parallel posting [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Thanks for the link, Voronwe, I’ll check that thread out.

Tom,

I was under an equal impression that Imladris and Lothlorian were the products of Elrond and Galadriel using their rings of power to maintian empires in Middle-Earth. I’ll do some research when I get some time.

Edit: Voronwe, I was unable to open that thread with the link you provided. Could you give me the name of the thread and where it appeared?

[ December 29, 2002: Message edited by: Bill Ferny ]

[tom bombariffic]

You may well be right, I cant say Ive researched it either, but something among the cobwebs in the back of my mind said that this was the reason the elves never turned treacherous, or fell under sauron's control - they never wore the rings, so he couldn't ensnare them. I may just have imagined it though.
If you find out, please let us know!

Bombariffic

[Iarwain]

I must say that #2 was very clever, and now that I think of it, more probable, Manwe. If Gandalf was saying that he was a servant of the Flame Imperishable, than he would be "uncloaking" himself much more than if he were saying that he was the bearer of Narya.

The Flame would be Secret, you might recall because Morgoth had struck discord in the Music of the Ainur before Eru revealed to the Ainur Eä, and before that, Morgoth had longed for the Flame Imperishable, and had searched the void for the "secret fire". Also, Gandalf was sent by Manwe and Varda, Valar, and also direct servants of Eru. Therefore by serving them, he would also be serving Eru, creator of the Flame Imperishable.

[Voronwe]

Sorry about that. The link in my post above was wrong; it is now fixed.

The bearers of the elven rings were in no danger if they wore their rings as long as The One was not on Sauron's hand. In particular Galadriel is wearing Nenya in Lorien (Frodo sees it on her hand). Thus there is nothing to prevent Gandalf from wearing Narya as long as it was not worn 'openly', though there is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that he did.

[akhtene]

Just one more question concerning Gandalf's ring.

If he WAS wearing it during their journey (and in Moria), was he then sent back naked but with the ring?

And if he wasn't, where could he keep it, as he didn't have any residence? In Lorien?

[Voronwe]

Why would Gandalf need to be sent back from Valinor to Middle Earth with the ring? It was still presumably on the mountain-top where he had left it.

And if he wasn't, where could he keep it, as he didn't have any residence?

In his pocket.

[hobbitlass]

Or perhaps on a chain around his neck.

[Bill Ferny]

Tom,

I did some research, and found that the three elven rings contained the power to heal and perserve. Of the Rings of Power in the Silm, and from the The Council of Elrond. Most telling is when Elrond says:

The Three were not made by Sauron, nor did ever touch them… They are not idle… But all that has been wrought by those who wield the Three will turn to their undoing…

The Council of Elrond, LotR, II, 2.

So, it appears that the three rings were certainly used. However, it still begs the question of whether Gandalf used Narya as Círdan seems to suggest. I’m leaning toward no, because using a ring of power seems out of character for Gandalf, and it would be difficult for Saruman to miss a big red ring on Gandalf’s hand when Gandalf is imprisoned. Of course, Gandalf could have taken the ring off when he visited Saruman.

[Curulin]

I think that Gandalf probably did wear the ring occasionally. We can deduct this by what is said in the last chapter or RoTK:

Frodo saw that Gandalf now wore openly upon his hand the Third Ring, Narya the Great.

Because of the "now" it would seem that he probably did wear it sometimes beforehand. I also remember reading somewhere that it was because of Gandalf's wearing and wielding of the Ring of Fire that his fireworks were so spectacular, but i couldnt cite a source...

As for Elrond's ring i don't know of any quotes to say whether he wore it a lot or not, but as both of the other two seem to then i dont see why he shouldnt have, epecially if that was how he maintained Rivendell and kept it safe from evil
Curulin

[ December 31, 2002: Message edited by: Curulin ]

[hobbitlass]

...Yet even so, as RIng-bearer and as one that had borne it on finger and seen that which is hidden, your sight is grown keener... And did you not see and recognize the ring upon my finger? Did you see my ring? she asked turning again to Sam.

Galadriel speaking to Frodo and Sam at the mirror of Galdriel.

So I surmise that the elven rings had a power to be hidden unless the bearer wanted it to be seen, as in Gandalf openly wearing Narya at the Grey Havens or if one has put on the One ring.
But this does raise a question concerning Narya. Frodo had put on the One ring three times (1.Tom Bombadil's house 2.Prancing Pony 3.Weathertop) by the time he had met up with Gandalf at Rivendel. So why couldn't Frodo see Narya? Or Bilbo?
Perhaps Gandalf kept Narya in the same place he kept the map of Lonely Mountain for a hundred years before giving it to Thorin.