Boromir's search for Imladris

[The Mouth of Sauron]

After Faramir and Boromir had their "seek for the sword that was broken" dream, they asked Denethor where Imladris might be found. And despite living in a world where even Barliman Butterbur knew where Mordor was, Denethor was unable to give an exact location for the House of Elrond.

But surely there was an easy way to find out, because at the time of these dreams Saruman, living in Isengard, was still perceived as an ally of Gondor and Rohan - and Saruman was head of the White Council, of which Elrond was a member.

So why didn't Boromir just knock on the doors of Isengard and ask Saruman where Imladris was ?

[Rumil]

Interesting question Mouth!

In Unfinished Tales, Christopher Tolkien speculated that Denethor might have been in touch with Saruman via the Palantir, if so this is even more peculiar.

However, Denethor was a pretty sharp customer, at least until convinced of the doom of Minas Tirith by Sauron. Maybe he detected some hint of Saruman's untrustworthiness, not proof enough to alert Theoden, but enough to make him uneasy about sending his son and heir to knock on the Wizard's door?

You'd think that Denethor could have used the palantir and discovered the orcs and halforcs at Isengard - proof enough to show Saruman's treachery. Also to find Rivendell and at least do a sketch map for Boromir.

The range of Denethor's palantir was around 500 miles, if I remember, so Rivendell is too far, but Orthanc is in range. However, in UT a mysterious process called 'cloaking' is mentioned in relation to the palantirs, whereby a place could be hidden from palantir viewing. No doubt Saruman had done this, perhaps this was enough to raise Denethor's suspicions?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by The Mouth of Sauron

So why didn't Boromir just knock on the doors of Isengard and ask Saruman where Imladris was ?

It probably didn't occur to Denethor that Saruman might know.

Though the reader is told that Saruman was the head of the White Council, on which also sat Elrond, there's no indication Denethor was aware of that, or that there was any such thing as the 'White Council'. How would Denethor have guessed the two knew one another?

If Saruman had been a close friend or counsellor of Denethor, I could imagine Denethor asking anyway. Under the circumstances, however, with Denethor being as proud as he was, he probaby just sent his son in the general direction of Imladris, believing he'd find it somehow on his own.

[Mithalwen]

It should be remembered that Imladris is hard to find even if you know where it is - Gandalf struggles a bit in the Hobbit and I imagine that Boromir in the last stages of his journey was probably spotted and brought in by scouts - we know that theu were expecting Frodo and probably kept some kind of watch over the moors generally. I doubt many strangers reached Imladris unescorted by elf or Dunadan. Legolas would have come via the mountain pass and the path from that must have been guarded or concealed.

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

It should be remembered that Imladris is hard to find even if you know where it is

Right!

Imladris is hidden - it is not meant to be found - quite unlike Mordor, which is a huge land with an enormous fiery mountain, ominous dark tower and vast armies of evil.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

One has to wonder if the name 'Imladris' was even known to Denethor. He doesn't appear to have any interest in anything that does not directly concern Gondor. If he somehow perceived Elrond and his realm to be of potential benefit to him, he would certainly have known the name (if not where it was located), but he had a demonstrated tendency to dismiss any knowledge that he could not see being of use to him (witness his reaction to Gandalf's research in the archives of Minas Tirith). If he knew the word, he would have known that the realm was hidden, and thus of little use to him -- until his sons had a dream involving it, one that seemed forbidding and prophetic, for Gondor. Suddenly the place has meaning for him, but there is no one to ask about its location, and no time to waste in potentially futile research.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

One has to wonder if the name 'Imladris' was even known to Denethor. He doesn't appear to have any interest in anything that does not directly concern Gondor.

Judging from Boromir's words to the Council of Elrond, Denethor had at least heard of Imladris.

"This only would he say, that Imladris was of old the name among the Elves of a far northern dale, where Elrond the Half-elven dwelt, greatest of lore-masters."

FOTR The Council of Elrond

Though you're right in that Denethor had little use in things unless he perceived their value to Gondor, I think he had some knowledge of the history of Arnor, and the existence of Imladris was certainly an important factor for those in the North-kingdom.

[The Mouth of Sauron]

Another couple of suggestions as to why Denethor should have known where Imladris and the House of Elrond was : -

After the Fellowship left Lorien, Aragorn stated that light boats used to "come out of Wilderland" to Osgiliath a few years previously, certainly during Denethor's lifetime. And the West - East trade route across Eriador and Wilderland from the Ered Luin to Dale, which included Rivendell, would certainly have crossed the North - South route down Anduin and surely some travellers would have used both routes.

When Aragorn served Ecthelion in the guise of Thorongil, surely in conversation with him he might have mentioned Rivendell ?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, firstly, let me just repeat here what was already mentioned before - Imladris was a hidden valley. It was hidden in the way Mith mentioned (if you were looking for it, even if you knew roughly where it was, you had to find it in the labyrinth of rocks and valleys), and also in the way that it was a secret place. Most people really didn't know where it lay, and I daresay a commoner who even heard the name could not know whether it is in Eriador, Mirkwood or the mountains of Gondor. Think of all the "secret lands of XY" from our real world mythologies. Think of Gondolin. Rivendell was effectively something similar (smaller, of course, but originally coming from the same idea).

Denethor was a wise man and he would know about things like that more than anybody else in Gondor (as is even said), but still the exact location, for him, would be just "a land far away, beyond a thousand hills and mountains... blah blah blah" (I hope you get the point).

Originally Posted by The Mouth of Sauron

When Aragorn served Ecthelion in the guise of Thorongil, surely in conversation with him he might have mentioned Rivendell ?

Aragorn was in disguise himself. Nobody knew where he came from and where he disappeared to, and he certainly wouldn't boast about where he had been to, and the less about supposedly secret havens of the Elves. You could equally strongly expect him to talk about the Shire, which alone should show how improbable and illogical it would be.

[Findegil]

I don't think any 'light boat' out of Wilderland ever crossed the borders of Lorien. Thus this traffic originated from the south of Lorien, or at least it reached the river there, while the east-west traffic crossed the river fare more in the north.

It was unknown were Thorongil came from. And Thorongil did conceal that by purpose. Thus I believe even if he would have been asked directly about Imladris he would not have shown greater knowledge than what was common in upper class gondorian society (like Denethor).

Respectfuly
Findegil

[The Mouth of Sauron]

Originally Posted by Findegil

I don't think any 'light boat' out of Wilderland ever crossed the borders of Lorien. Thus this traffic originated from the south of Lorien, or at least it reached the river there, while the east-west traffic crossed the river fare more in the north.

A boat from the north of Wilderland travelling down Anduin would pass Lorien, not cross its border. So if either Mirkwood men or Beornings wanted to sail down to Osgiliath I don't see what was stopping them. Otherwise, why was the portage way that Aragorn found built ? And I'm not sure that any men lived just south of Lorien near Anduin, apart from maybe some people of Rohan living in the eastern Wold.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by The Mouth of Sauron

A boat from the north of Wilderland travelling down Anduin would pass Lorien, not cross its border. So if either Mirkwood men or Beornings wanted to sail down to Osgiliath I don't see what was stopping them.

Undeeps.

Anyway, I guess all the places around Rauros used to be in use in the days of Gondor's glory, when its vigilance reached as far as its north border (where later there were just the folks of Wold) and also when it reached far into the East, among other things, and the Kingdom of Dale still existed, and the Northmen were there in the plains, instead of murderous Balchoth and/or instead of empty wasteland (after the wars and Great Plague).

I can see a few Woodmen trading with "the Southerners" (i.e. the Rohirrim, rather than the Gondorians by the end of Third Age), but on a rather "unofficial" and random basis, if even that. The Wilderness was wild and Dol Guldur was all too close there (as was Lórien, for that matter, which also was not a place humans would like to cross. Passing between Southern Mirkwood and Lórien would be only for the brave ones, a rather creepy experience for a common man, in my opinion).

[Mithalwen]

I think that it is hard for us to really grasp how hard it was to navigate around Middle Earth even if you were skilful and wise. We live in a world where a taps of a keyboard can bring up a satellite picture of just about anywhere you choose on the planet. My god daughter can monitor the progress of her father in a yacht race from the comfort of her sofa. But take away our technology and how good would most of us be finding our way around?

Middle Earth is a world where most people don't travel further than they have to to meet the necessity of their daily lives - and for most that would be a very small radius from their homes. This would have been true of much of the England, Tolkien grew up in - and not its least densely populated regions. I have account my great uncle wrote of going to visit family on their farm each summer about a hundred years ago - it took all day to travel 20 miles to the other side of Bristol.

Look at Middle Earth, relate the scale of the geography to an area you can relate to. Look at how few major routes there are and bear in mind we would regard them as tracks. Denethor was an educated man and certainly would have known of Imladris but directing someone there is a different thing. It is like being in Cornwall and being told to find a hidden valley in Scotland! Worse since at least on a island you have the sea as reference. Boromir wouldn't even have had a compass to help him keep course over difficult terrain.

If you think of how long it took the Nazgul to find the unhidden Shire with the knowledge of Sauron behind them then it puts it into perspective. And think of the many happless visitors to wilder regions who get themselves bushed in Australia or the states.

[Rumil]

I must admit I'm still wondering about the relationship between Saruman and Denethor.

Regardless of putative palanti-ing, Saruman was noted as being more concerned with Gondor than Gandalf, who was more involved with Eriador and the North of Middle Earth. Saruman visited Minas Tirith fairly often, as Denethor iirc commented when Gandalf came to search for the scroll of Isildur.

It would be natural, if Denethor trusted Saruman, to direct Boromir first to Rohan, then to Isengard, before trying to find Rivendell. If this had been done Boromir's journey would have been easier and he might have been able to get some information. Surely Saruman would be one of the best people to ask, as although Denethor might not have known he was on the White Council, he was obviously learned and long-lived, and on the way.

For some reason Denethor decided against asking Saruman, I reckon he must have been suspicious already.

I wonder if Saruman ever met Thorongil?

I guess the location of Rivendell was known to Denethor in very vague terms - ie somewhere near the end of the Great East Road before it crosses the Misty Mountains, but as has been said, its exact location was hidden. Even so Boromir lost his horse at the crossings of Tharbad, rather out of the way as the crow flies. Was he therefore heading up the Greenway to Bree and turning right, or did he cut across country up the Hoarwell? If he went through Bree, I wonder how this fits in with the timing of Frodo's journey?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Rumil

It would be natural, if Denethor trusted Saruman, to direct Boromir first to Rohan, then to Isengard, before trying to find Rivendell. If this had been done Boromir's journey would have been easier and he might have been able to get some information. Surely Saruman would be one of the best people to ask, as although Denethor might not have known he was on the White Council, he was obviously learned and long-lived, and on the way.

For some reason Denethor decided against asking Saruman, I reckon he must have been suspicious already.

I actually think so too. But not that he would be suspicious, like, really suspicious. I think it might have been something similar to Gandalf's "I might perhaps have consulted [the Ring with] Saruman the White, but something always held me back".

I would put three main reasons there:
1) some sort of pride (even though Saruman was "the" Wise and everybody knew that, Denethor would be the kind of person who would try to do things by himself if he could),
2) as mentioned above, "suspicion" (or something like that),
3) mere unwillingness to bother combined with the bit of disbelief that Saruman would actually know it either if the best of the Gondorians don't ("if something is not in our archives, it does not exist").

I think all these factors combined made Denethor (and consequently, Boromir) decide not to consult Saruman.

I wonder if Saruman ever met Thorongil?

I really doubt that. Thorongil operated mostly elsewhere (not in direct vicinity of Isengard, or not in any places where he would necessarily be forced to actually meet Saruman) and was really, really secretive. He would avoid exposing himself to more keen-sighted people than was necessary. Likewise, Saruman probably didn't have much of a special chance to meet Thorongil (such circumstances would be a bit unlikely to arise).

I guess the location of Rivendell was known to Denethor in very vague terms - ie somewhere near the end of the Great East Road before it crosses the Misty Mountains, but as has been said, its exact location was hidden. Even so Boromir lost his horse at the crossings of Tharbad, rather out of the way as the crow flies. Was he therefore heading up the Greenway to Bree and turning right, or did he cut across country up the Hoarwell? If he went through Bree, I wonder how this fits in with the timing of Frodo's journey?

Tharbad was at the time still the only good crossing of Hoarwell, and it was still on the road which was somewhat in use - or at least there were some remnants of a road. Referring back to Mith's post just above, if you can follow a road, you do it, especially in an unknown terrain. It is not that you can say "I will now turn and go fifteen miles northeast from here". You cannot do that even in the forest behind your house for a few hundred meters, unless you have a compass, and even then you must avoid thick bushes and whatnot. I think that much is obvious, so Boromir, if he could, would really prefer to follow the road as far as possible. It is actually more curious, as you say, that he didn't go to Bree, as that's actually what would make a lot of sense to do. But maybe this is where he got some directions, or knew that he should more or less try to follow the Greyflood. Who knows.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I think that much is obvious, so Boromir, if he could, would really prefer to follow the road as far as possible. It is actually more curious, as you say, that he didn't go to Bree, as that's actually what would make a lot of sense to do. But maybe this is where he got some directions, or knew that he should more or less try to follow the Greyflood. Who knows.

I still don't think it unlikely that some knowledge of Imladris had been preserved in the archives of Gondor.

Afer all, the fact that Imladris was a 'sanctuary' where dwelt Elrond the Wise was well known to the Dúnedain of Arnor when that kingdom existed. And during that time there had been presumably much comings and goings between the two kingdoms, but still more consulation by palantír.

I can see the general location of Imladris being obtainable through a search of records in Minas Tirith , and a Man as hardy and strong as Boromir being able to find it just from that.

Actually, according to a version of the Nazgûls' movements as recounted in the UT essay The Hunt For the Ring, Wormtongue told the Ringwraiths the location of the Shire with fairly vague directions.

'West through the Gap of Rohan yonder, and then north and a little west, until the next great river bars the way; the Greyflood it is called. Thence from the crossing at Tharbad the old road will lead you to the borders.'

There was no road leading directly to Imladris from the south from Tharbad and it was hidden, but still; with information from Arnor Boromir could have known where to make for, and lookouts from Imladris have done the rest in guiding him on the last leg.

[Rumil]

Hi all,

this raises a question! Legate and Mith I think your ideas that Boromir stuck to the roads is very sensible. But if so this surely means that Boromir went through Bree. Was he there before or after Frodo &co. ? (I'm almost tempted to ask whether he'd joined the party of Southerners that were at the Prancing Pony, but I think JRRT would have mentioned him if so). However, he seems surprised to meet Halflings, so maybe he didn't go to Bree?

[The Mouth of Sauron]

Now that I think of it, didn't Valandil, Isildur's 4th son, stay in Rivendell with his mother during the Last Alliance at the end of the Second Age ?

And after Sauron's fall surely Isildur made it clear in Gondor that he was returning to Imladris - why else would he travel north up the Anduin valley ? - and records would surely have accordingly been kept in Gondor of Isildur's intention and Rivendell's location ?

[Rumil]

You're quite right Mouth,

but Gandalf commented that few in Gondor had the skill to read Isildur's records any more, and maybe the exact location of Rivendell had been deliberately left vague - it was supposed to be a hidden fastness after all.

More recently (only 1500 or so years ago!) Gondorian troops had been allied with Elrond in the defeat of the Witchking, but 1500 years is a long time, and 3000 even more so.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Rumil

Legate and Mith I think your ideas that Boromir stuck to the roads is very sensible. But if so this surely means that Boromir went through Bree. Was he there before or after Frodo &co. ? (I'm almost tempted to ask whether he'd joined the party of Southerners that were at the Prancing Pony, but I think JRRT would have mentioned him if so). However, he seems surprised to meet Halflings, so maybe he didn't go to Bree?

I would think Boromir's reaction to Frodo at the Council alone would speak against his having gone to Bree, but another point against it for me would be this: who in Bree would have known where to find Imladris?

First of all, I doubt any Bree-landers, even if they'd heard of Rivendell, would have had a clue what Boromir meant by Imladris, which was how Boromir would have referred to it. Of Men, only the Dúnedain (Northern and Southern) seem to have used Sindarin for place names.
If Boromir had asked someone, Butturbur, perhaps, of Elrond, I can almost hear him say "Who"? Never heard 'o him, Sir! Oh! One o' them Elves? I heard they lived away to the West by the Sea. and there's supposed t' be some more close to the Mountains to the East, but that's all I know."
The only ones there who could reasonably have known the way were the Dúnedain themselves, if one happened to be in Bree at that moment. And would they have talked to Boromir? Maybe, but I think it's questionable, unless he had some way of proving his identity.

At any rate, I think it's far more likely that after losing his horse crossing the Greyflood at Tharbad, Boromir simply continued north along the line of the Greyflood, and then the Mitheithel to the Last Bridge.

[Erendis]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The only ones there who could reasonably have known the way were the Dúnedain themselves, if one happened to be in Bree at that moment.

Why necessarily meeting them in Bree?

Supposing he continued by following Mitheitheil's stream to the Last Bridge,that brings him rather close to Weathertop.Since it was a Ranger's point of frequent visit
and after the encounter with the Nazgul and news of the flashes coming out from its top,they must have been at least curious about the area.So,it seems quite possible there were some around when Boromir showed up.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Erendis

Supposing he continued by following Mitheitheil's stream to the Last Bridge,that brings him rather close to Weathertop.

But what would have induced him to go west to Weathertop?

I'm going on the assumption that Boromir at least knew the general area in which Imladris was located; in a valley near the Ford of Bruinen, close to the Mountains. If that was the case, his traveling to Weathertop, which would have been at least an extra day or two's journey out of his way west, would have been unlikely.

[Erendis]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

But what would have induced him to go west to Weathertop?
.

Nothing.It is a total waste of time.
I mean he might have been spotted by some Rangers being around the area.

[The Mouth of Sauron]

Another reason I still find it hard to believe that people in Gondor didn't know where Imladris was is this : People in Minas Tirith must have known of the existence of the Beornings, the Woodland Realm, Esgaroth and Dale - and they certainly knew where Rivendell was. Surely Denethor could have sent scouts into northern Wilderland to "ask around" ?

[Mithalwen]

We know that Boromir was a man of action rather than a scholar unlike his father and brothers and also that there was a relatively short time between the eve of the assault on Osgiliath on 20th of June when Faramir first had the "seek for the sword that was broken" dream and Boromir leaving on the 4th July and from what we know of the family dynamic it is a fair bet that the dream was only taken seriously once Boromir had had it. There was possibly not the time to seach the archives even if the knowledge existed there such things area often learnt by experience. From Elfhelm's words at the edge of the Grey Woods it seems that not that many of the Rohirrim knew the way unguided even to Minas Tirith, chief city of their closest allies ... true Gondorians were more likely to study maps and the like but knowing something exists is very different to knowing where it is... I know I own various pairs of scissors but can I find them when I need them?

I doubt that the location of Rivendell was exactly known other than to the elves and we know that the men of Gondor (and Rohan) had no dealings with them at that time. Did people in Dale know of Rivendell? The dwarves would certainly but a rather circuitous route.

Look at what Boromir says"the way was full of doubt and danger..long I have wandered by roads forgotten, seeking the house of Elrond, of which many had heard but few knew where it lay"

In the "Journeys of Frodo" the admirably thorough Barbar Strachey, says that it isn't clear what route he took though he claims 1200 miles. She says it is possible he took the road the whole way but I think it unlikely he went to Bree for reasons stated.

Outside Moria he says "Let us journey south to the Gap of Rohan...taking the road that I followed on my way hither" . But it is ambiguous whether by that he means the road he took to or from the Gap.

While Elrond says he arrives in the "grey morning", Hammond and Scull point out that the tale of years has him arrive the night before - which might allow him to be connected to Elladan and Elrohir arriving out of the wilds unexpectedly. Maybe they were the ones who "brought him in".

[Tuor in Gondolin]

I agree with Boromir probably going up the Mitheithel, once he lost
his horse. Surely tales of Earnur's victory at Fornost (even though
a thousand years ago) was known and was an epic tale sung during
festive occasions in Gondor, and as an exciting battle, enjoyed especially
by Boromir. And in that battle the important role of both Cirdan and
Elrond, and the general direction from which their forces came, would
be known, at least in so far as it was east of the Weather Hills and
near the Misty Mountains, and so a natural aiming point for him would
be the area of the intersection of the East Road and the Metheithel.
Once on foot journeying by the riverside would be shorter and quicker
then going up to Bree and then east (although with less chance of
aid from travelers or others).

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by The Mouth of Sauron

Another reason I still find it hard to believe that people in Gondor didn't know where Imladris was is this : People in Minas Tirith must have known of the existence of the Beornings, the Woodland Realm, Esgaroth and Dale - and they certainly knew where Rivendell was. Surely Denethor could have sent scouts into northern Wilderland to "ask around" ?

What I don't get is why you keep insisting the exact location of a hidden refuge (where even Aragorn has some difficulty finding) has to be common knowledge to every bloat in the story?

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

a natural aiming point for him would
be the area of the intersection of the East Road and the Metheithel.
Once on foot journeying by the riverside would be shorter and quicker
then going up to Bree and then east (although with less chance of
aid from travelers or others).

Good point - and there may have been awareness that the remnants of the Dunedain of the North were based in that area (the Angle) - even though they were " a ragged house, long bereft of Lordshiop and dignity", it might have been hoped in Gondor that their Northern kin would have this knowledge and so if Boromir found the Rangers he would be headed in the right direction.

I meant to say that geography can cheat the eye.. I took my Australian cousin to the beach a couple of weeks ago and we went to where my aunt has a beach hut a couple of miles along the coast from the beach nearest to my house, which my cousin had visited last time she was down and from which the Isle of Wight is clearly visible as an island. When we got to the hut she asked "where is the Isle of Wight?" And I said well it is over there trying not ot make it seem like she was being stupid, but the fact is that the change of angle and a shingle spit make the solent look just like a bay from that point. Things can be just under your nose and if you don't know the area well, perfectly hidden.

[The Mouth of Sauron]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

What I don't get is why you keep insisting the exact location of a hidden refuge (where even Aragorn has some difficulty finding) has to be common knowledge to every bloat in the story?

I didn't realise I was "insisting" about anything.

Aragorn had difficulty finding Rivendell ?!? I don't think so.

And the main point I was trying to make was that the location of Rivendell WAS known by certain people in the wider world - and in the unlikely event that Gondor had forgotten its location, Denethor surely had options when it came to eliciting that information rather than sending Boromir on an uncertain journey.