Orcs creation theory

[Flame of Anor]

This may have already been covered, but i was thinking, since Yavanna sung about ents and they were made by Eru, and Manwe sung about eagles and were produced, maybe Morgoth sung about Orcs in the Music of the Ainur, and though it may sound bad Eru created them because as he proclaimed during the music

"Eru then publicly rebuked Melkor, saying that all music found its source in himself, and thus Melkor could not create his own song or truly alter the Themes of Ilúvatar. Thus, though Melkor opposed Eru to his last breath, he only furthered the cause of Ilúvatar in new and wondrous ways"

Thoughts? ~~~

[narfforc]

In 1954 Tolkien drafted a letter to Peter Hastings about orcs, and wrote the following..........'I have represented at least the Orcs as pre-existing beings on whom the Dark Lord has exerted the fullness of his power in remodelling and corrupting them, and not making them'. In later writings he says...'Only Eru, Iluvatar, 'could make creatures of independent wills, and with reasoning powers. But Orcs seem to have both.' Therfore, could they be 'corruptions of something pre-existing'?. Not of Men: 'Men had not appeared when Orcs already existed.......Eru would not sanction the work of Melkor [Morgoth] so as to allow the independence of the Orcs [if Melkor had created them]. (Not unless Orcs were ultimately remediable, or could be amended and "saved"?) He could not cotemplate the 'absolute perversion' by Melkor 'of a whole people, or group of peoples, and his making that state heritable [capable of being transmitted from parent to offspring].' Thus Elves are' very unlikely' as the source for Orcs. In 1969 tolkien wrote discussing the puppet-like nature inevitable in creatures brought into being by one of the great Powers themselves: the note was intented to stand in relation to the words 'But the Orcs were not of this kind'. More about Orcs can be read in Morgoth's Ring. The main problem is that Tolkien changed his mind over the years and the only clear words we have are Treebeard's.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Flame of Anor

This may have already been covered, but i was thinking, since Yavanna sung about ents and they were made by Eru, and Manwe sung about eagles and were produced, maybe Morgoth sung about Orcs in the Music of the Ainur, and though it may sound bad Eru created them because as he proclaimed during the music (...)

Tolkien did once contemplate:

'Out of the discords of the Music -- sc. not directly out of either of the Themes, Eru's or Melkor's, but of their dissonance with regard to one another -- evil things appeared in Arda, which did not descend from any direct plan or vision of Melkor: they were not 'his children'; and therefore, since all evil hates, hated him too. The progeniture of things was corrupted. Hence Orcs? Part of the Elf-Man idea gone wrong. Though as for Orcs, the Eldar believed Morgoth had actually 'bred' them by capturing Men (and Elves) early and increasing to the utmost any corrupt tendencies they possessed.'

Myths Transformed Text VII

This was not the only idea Tolkien mused upon concerning Orcs. Whatever notion he was going to land on (and possibly he was going to present conflicting ideas depending on where the ideas came from, or maybe he was going to leave the matter vague), here are a couple examples of what Tolkien himself had already published -- so in my opinion he would have to mind these statements in any case:

'The Orcs were first bred by the Dark Power of the North in the Elder Days.'

Appendix F

'No, they eat and drink Sam. The Shadow that bred them can only mock, it cannot make: not real new things of its own. I don't think it gave life to the orcs, it only ruined them and twisted them;...'

Frodo, The Tower of Cirith Ungol

Treebeard implies that Orcs came with the Great Darkness (first quote), and earlier he had given a general idea (at least) of when this Great Darkness began:

'It is a mark of evil things that came in the Great Darknesss that they cannot abide the Sun; but Saruman's Orcs can endure it, even if they hate it.'

Treebeard

'They always wished to talk to everything, the old Elves did. But then the Great Darkness came, and they passed away over the Sea, or fled into far valleys, and hid themselves,...'

Treebeard

I'm aware of Tolkien's statement in a letter that Treebeard is a character in the story and cannot be expected to know the exact origin of Orcs, however he is stated to have a great memory too, and I think the reader can regard these statements as reliable enough. Treebeard does not, in any case, state what Orcs were made from, but rather that they were made in mockery of Elves, which does not necessarily mean they were made from Elves. This left some room for JRRT to jot down various theories about Orcs with respect to what they might be corruptions of, including beasts, Maiar, Elves, Men, all of which can be found in texts also under the Myths Transformed section in Morgoth's Ring.

A mannish theory can be found in one of Tolkien's notes to the essay on the Druedain published in Unfinished Tales, where (it is stated that) the Eldar said that surely Morgoth bred Orcs from various kinds of Men, but yet not the Druedain.

[narfforc]

Originally Posted by Galin

A mannish theory can be found in one of Tolkien's notes to the essay on the Druedain published in Unfinished Tales, where (it is stated that) the Eldar said that surely Morgoth bred Orcs from various kinds of Men, but yet not the Druedain.

In Myths Transformed (Morgoth's Ring) Christopher states:-

This then, as it may appear, was my father final view of the question: Orcs were bred from men.

Confused?








.

[Boromir88]

I'm aware of Tolkien's statement in a letter that Treebeard is a character in the story and cannot be expected to know the exact origin of Orcs,~Galin

I wonder if we can even expect Tolkien to know the exact origin of his Orcs. He seemed to never settle on an idea.

In The Silmarillion the Elves of Tol Eressea believed Morgoth captured Elves, tortured them, and thus you have the first Orcs. However, the same problems occur as you have with Treebeard. Plus, later on, as narfforc and Galin pointed out Tolkien began moving away from this...

While we know Elves and Dwarves were capable of evil, Tolkien didn't think it was possible to enslave their wills in the way Morgoth and Sauron were able to do with their Orcs. Morgoth and Sauron held their Orcs in 'ant-like' thraldom, the nature of Elves and Dwarves made it impossible for them to ever reach this slave state:

Other originally independent creatures, and Men among them (but neither Elves nor Dwarves) could be reduced to a like condition. But ’puppets’, with no independent life or will, would simply cease to move or do anything at all when the will of their maker was brought to nothing.~Morgoth's Ring: Text X

This would go to support the 'Man' theory, however then we have a problem with the timeline. CT makes note that Tolkien adapted his chronology a bit, to fit the Man theory, because that seemed to be the last and most final theory for the origin of Orcs. However, 'last' and 'final' don't inspire that much assurance, as of course Tolkien could have changed his mind again and found a different origin he thought more comfortable.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by narfforc

In Myths Transformed (Morgoth's Ring) Christopher states:- This then, as it may appear, was my father final view of the question: Orcs were bred from men.

Confused?

Yes he does write that, but CJRT follows that statement with: 'But, as always, it is not quite so simple' and then goes on to refer to two notes written on paper dated 1969, one on the spelling of Orc (Ork), the other which carries a statement that appears to deny 'an essential conception of the essay' -- meaning the note appears to deny an essential conception of the earlier Text X 'Orcs from Men' essay.

Whether or not one thinks these two notes are enough to cast doubt on Text X the note to the Druedain is dated quite late too -- but not precisely dated, as CJRT includes it with his description of The Disaster of the Gladden Fields, about which he writes:

'This is a 'late' narrative -- by which I mean no more, in the absence of any indication of precise date, than that it belongs to the final period of my father's writing on Middle-earth, together with 'Cirion and Eorl', 'The Battles of the Ford of Isen', 'The Druedain,'...'

So, it may be that Author's note 5 to The Druedain is later than even these two 'Orc notes', but we don't know, as the notes themselves are '1969 or later' as CJRT also states. As far as the content of these two notes are concerned, for myself I don't find the one about spelling the word Ork very problematic, as it need not mean Tolkien was here suggesting the idea of Text IX (and Elvish origin 'and probably later also of Men' too), simply because he had spelled the word Ork there as well (though I suppose it's possible).

As far as the other note and the essential conception of Text X that the note seems to deny (as I read the evidence anyway): the note implies Morgoth had great numbers of Orcs before his captivity -- while in Text X the implication is rather that, though breeding had actually begun, when Melkor was made captive Sauron bred large numbers, so that when his master returned:

'... and there the dark places underground were already manned with hosts of the Orcs before Melkor came back at last, as Morgoth the Black Enemy, and sent them forth to bring ruin upon all that was fair.'

The question becomes, was JRRT revising his 'Orcs from Men' theory in Text X by seemingly denying this point? Hard to say, but given the late idea from UT (note 5) I tend to think Orcs from men was still the more likely (at least) notion in play, although it should be noted that:

'Doubtless Morgoth, since he can make no living thing, bred Orcs from various kinds of Men, but the Druedain must have escaped his Shadow;...'

Part of Note 5, The Druedain, Unfinished Tales

... is what the Eldar answered

[Flame of Anor]

now we all know Morgoth cannot made beings himself. Also he has never, too his utmost hatred, been able to wield the flame imperishable, so creating a people all his own is impossible.

Because Eru has to set the Flame in each being, and Mogoth could have corrupted the first Elf or Man, but the next generation the mutant offspring would still need a new Fëa (spirit) and with out Eru's consent the offspring would only be an empty husk with no soul.

But if, in the music of Ainur Morgoth sang of his vision of a people he could command that would bend to his will, then Eru would create them and set them on Arda, and would continue to gift these bodies (orcs) with Fëar. Just as the Ent, Eagles, and a little differnt from the dwarves

[Estelyn Telcontar]

When considering the role of the Great Music and the origin of Orcs, it is important to remember that Eru alone sang the Children into existence. The Silmarillion says:

For the Children of Ilúvatar were conceived by him alone; and they came with the third theme.

That means that Melkor could not have conceived of living creatures at that time; Aulë made the Dwarves later in memory of the vision and was given life for them as a special grace. I cannot imagine anything similar happening for Melkor.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

That means that Melkor could not have conceived of living creatures at that time; Aulë made the Dwarves later in memory of the vision and was given life for them as a special grace. I cannot imagine anything similar happening for Melkor.

Also to add, even though this doesn't really answer whether Morgoth created, or perverted, his Orcs, it does point out that their acceptance (by Eru) for existing:

They would be Morgoth’s greatest Sins, abuses of his highest privilege, and would be creatures begotten of Sin, and naturally bad (I nearly wrote ’irredeemably bad’; but that would be going too far. Because by accepting or tolerating their making - necessary to their actual existence - even Orcs would become part of the World, which is God’s and ultimatly good.)~Letter #153

Since Orcs were allowed to exist, as were Aule's Dwarves, they may be naturally evil, but still not irredeemable.

Although, I must admit this letter makes an entirely different mess of things with Orcs, because Tolkien never sent it, and added to the top 'It seemed to be taking myself too importantly.'

[Flame of Anor]

Yes Estelyn Telcontar, it does say:

For the Children of Ilúvatar were conceived by him alone; and they came with the third theme.

But the "Children of Ilúvatar" are Man and Elves only because they were created only by Eru. The Dwarves were a bad example i admit it, however if we look back at the creation of ents, specifically in The Silmarillion, we will recall that Yavanna sang about them in the Music of Ainur and latter Eru brought them into being. (i cant find the exact quote im sorry)

I am in no way saying that Morgoth created Orcs on his own, i just think that he thought them up, like Yavanna, and then Eru brought them to life, but Morgoth being the arrogant punk he is just thought he had done it himself. And Eru made orcs not to be cruel but for the reason Boromir88 states:

Also to add, even though this doesn't really answer whether Morgoth created, or perverted, his Orcs, it does point out that their acceptance (by Eru) for existing:

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Flame of Anor

I am in no way saying that Morgoth created Orcs on his own, i just think that he thought them up, like Yavanna, and then Eru brought them to life, but Morgoth being the arrogant punk he is just thought he had done it himself. And Eru made orcs not to be cruel but for the reason Boromir88 states:

This is probably the quote you spoke of:

'Yet it was in the Song', said Yavanna. 'For while thou wert in the heavens and with Ulmo built the clouds and poured out the rains, I lifted up the branches of great trees to receive them, and some sang to Ilúvatar amid the wind and the rain.

It seems clear to me the case of the Orcs is entirely different. They were made, not created, by Morgoth in an act of supreme blashphemy that The Silmarillion leaves little doubt was abominable to Ilúvatar.
The Ents were indeed part of the Music as recounted by Yavanna. But she received permission, as did Aulë for a different reason, to bring her own idea into the theme. Melkor received no such grace, and was in fact rebuked by the One for his insubordination. His alteration of the Music had no good intentions to redeem it. An evil deed, though it may do good not intended by the perpetrator, remains evil.

[narfforc]

Since Melkor could not 'create' an independent species, but had immense powers of corruption and distortion of those that came into his power, it is probable that these Orks had a mixed origin. Most of them plainly (and biologically) were corruptions of Elves (and probably later Men).................... The Elves would have classed the creatures called 'trolls (in The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings) as Orcs - in character and origin - but they were larger and slower. It would seem they were corruptions of primitive human types. (Morgoth's Ring).

In a letter dated September 1954, tolkien wrote the following:-


I am not sure about Trolls. I think they are mere 'counterfeits' and hence (though here I am of course only using elements old barbarous mythmaking that had no 'aware' metaphysic) they return to mere stone images when not in the dark. But there other sorts of Trolls beside these rather ridiculous, if brutal, Stone-trolls, for which other origins are suggested. Of course.....when you make Trolls speak you are giving them a power, which in our world (probably) connotes the possession of a 'soul'. (Morgoth's Ring).

I don't think we came seperate the Orcs and the Trolls when we discuss The Origins of Species, they were either both created or pre-existing corrupted forms. As Boromir88 says though, Tolkien kept changing his mind. If you take The Early Silmarillion view then 'Melkor made the orcs out of stone with hearts of hatred'. Later in The Earliest Annals of Beleriand 'He devised the (Balrogs and) Orcs'. These are the problems you encounter within HoME, and at the end Tolkien was comfortable enough to have the words of Treebeard published, even then he still kept thinking of the problem.

[Flame of Anor]

Ok, i agree, Morgoth probably did not create Orcs but corrupted them into themselves.

But I'm still wondering: Is Fëa (soul) passed down from parents to children, or does Eru have to give each being its own Fëa. If the case is the latter, then the first corrupted product (orc) would have a spirit but the next generation, its child, would not have one. It would be an empty body, unless Eru chose to give each new orc a soul, and my question's are:

Why would he do that? Do they or will they serve some purpose for Eru?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Flame of Anor

But I'm still wondering: Is Fëa (soul) passed down from parents to children, or does Eru have to give each being its own Fëa. If the case is the latter, then the first corrupted product (orc) would have a spirit but the next generation, its child, would not have one. It would be an empty body, unless Eru chose to give each new orc a soul, and my question's are:

Why would he do that? Do they or will they serve some purpose for Eru?

For the first part of your post, I would say all the Orcs must possess Fëa, or, as you say, they would have no will or thoughts of their own, acting along the lines of the Fathers of the Dwarves when Aulë first brought them into being.

For thou hast from me as a gift thy own being only, and no more; and therefore the creatures of thy hand and mind can live only by that being, moving when thou thinkest to move them, and if thy thought be elsewhere, standing idle.

Such were Ilúvatar's words to Aulë.
I would think souls must be assigned to each being individually, or would not each new Orc essentially be a reincarnation of an earlier generation?
As to why The One would ensoul such creatures, my only answer is that the Orcs must play some important part in the story of the world, or they would not be allowed to exist. The question of whether that part was devised for them from the very beginning, before even Melkor conceived of making a race of his own to serve him, or if it was a response to Melkor's act is really beyond my pay grade.
My feeling is that if one accepts the premise of Ilúvatar being the Prime Creator and ultimate author of the Play, it must follow that nothing occurrs that is unforseen to him, and every event has a purpose.

[alatar]

Thingol and Melian begat what?

Assume then a Maiar that joined Melkor from the beginning. Mate this being with any other being (elf, dwarf, ent, man, animal, etc) and see what happens. If Melian could take a form that was compatible with Thingol, biologically-speaking, then why couldn't a Maia bent on some hellish plan take a form to allow for the begetting of some new hybrid species?

This explanation would also account for balance in the realm of Arda (Ents - trolls, elves - orcs, eagles - winged beasts, Bombadil - ...).

[Ghazi]

Originally Posted by alatar

Thingol and Melian begat what?

An elf.

Originally Posted by alatar

Assume then a Maiar that joined Melkor from the beginning. Mate this being with any other being (elf, dwarf, ent, man, animal, etc) and see what happens. If Melian could take a form that was compatible with Thingol, biologically-speaking, then why couldn't a Maia bent on some hellish plan take a form to allow for the begetting of some new hybrid species?

In the case mentioned above, and if the logic holds, the Maiar in question would have to assume a compatible form (ent, elf, etc.), in order to mate, and therefore would produce an expected offspring (ent, elf, etc.).

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Ghazi

An elf.

Was she 'just' an elf? Somehow Lúthien's genes are a little different from the rest of the First or Second born.

But let's work with that. Melian wasn't an elf, but obviously made herself appear - physically, mechanically - enough like an elf to beget a child. Take some other maia that's not so nice. Have this evil being take a form enough like an elf to create offspring, but not like an elf in appearance due to its more evil nature. What could we get from that union?

In the case mentioned above, and if the logic holds, the Maiar in question would have to assume a compatible form (ent, elf, etc.), in order to mate, and therefore would produce an expected offspring (ent, elf, etc.).

See above. Mate the offspring of multiple elf-evil maia unions, select for the nastier ones; mate them to each other; repeat as necessary.

[Rumil]

Could be there's a bit of Boldog in the orcish gene-pool too

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

As to why The One would ensoul such creatures, my only answer is that the Orcs must play some important part in the story of the world, or they would not be allowed to exist. The question of whether that part was devised for them from the very beginning, before even Melkor conceived of making a race of his own to serve him, or if it was a response to Melkor's act is really beyond my pay grade.
My feeling is that if one accepts the premise of Ilúvatar being the Prime Creator and ultimate author of the Play, it must follow that nothing occurrs that is unforseen to him, and every event has a purpose.

"And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite."

So yes ... it is all part of his Grand Design ... all foreseen by Him.