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12-24-2008, 06:58 AM | #1 | |||
Shade of Carn Dūm
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Why didn't Saruman go to the Shire to take the Ring?
Let us look at Saruman's actions and motives in summer 3018 closer.
What has really happened between the three Istari (Saruman, Radagast and Gandalf)? Gandalf had been fond of hobbits ever since the Long winter (2758-60), long before Bilbo has found the Ring. He didn't hide his interest from Saruman and Quote:
Then Saruman suddenly learns that the nazgul - all nine - have crossed the Anduin and are searching for "the Shire". How did he learn it? Most likely from Radagast - because how otherwise the Brown Wizard, who always stayed as far as possible from politics, got involved in this story? Radagast must have learned from his birds and beasts that his neighbours, the two nazgul of Dol Guldur, set forth, crossed the river, met the other seven and rode north together, asking questions. Radagast did what was his duty: he immediately went to inform Saruman - the head of his order. Here Saruman most likely put all the loose ends together: Gandalf is interested in the Shire and goes there a lot, the nazgul try to find the Shire, and there is hardly any other errand than the search for the One Ring that would make Sauron send all the Nine to wander across western lands. The last bit can be proven by Saruman's words to the Morgul-Lord: Quote:
Saruman's next move is to invite Gandalf to Orthanc, using the unsuspecting Radagast. Why? Most likely Saruman hopes that Gandalf will come bringing the Ring with him. That's why he orders Radagast to tell Gandalf the news about the nazgul. Would the Grey wizard leave the Ring unprotected? But that was not what happened. Gandalf came alone without the Ring. And here Saruman's actions do not make much sense, IMO. He took Gandalf out of the picture, imprisoning him in Orthanc. But he did nothing about the Ring. Why didn't he ride like the wind to the Shire himself, to get there before the nazgul? Quote:
The rangers at the border would have let him pass - wasn't he the head of the White Council? Frodo would have had no suspicions of him - didn't Gandalf speak highly of Saruman? He could have taken the Ring there and then, or carried Frodo to Orthanc - if he had daring enough. But it seems Saruman hadn't got enough guts for it. He did the silliest thing - removed Gandalf and left the Ring completely unprotected for the nazgul to take. Or, considering that Gandalf had means to transmit the news of danger to the Ringbearer, prior to going to Orthanc, he left the Ringbearer enough time to make his way to Rivendell, where the Ring would be beyond Saruman's grasp. What was it? Miscalculation? Cowardice? What do you think? |
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12-24-2008, 09:05 AM | #2 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Possibly Sauron's influence, which might have been greater than even Saruman himself knew. By the time Pippin picked up the palantir, we know it had been some time since Saruman had made a report to Sauron. I suspect this is because after he told Sauron he had Gandalf imprisoned, his own mind was in turmoil, his desire to have the Ring for himself warring with his "loyalty" (more likely fear) of Sauron. Moreover, it was to Sauron's benefit to encourage Saruman to stay put; in Orthanc, he could use the palantir to keep tabs on him and worm his way into his thoughts, exerting control from afar, also providing Sauron with an allied stronghold behind enemy lines, so to speak. Keeping Saruman there and under his influence gave Sauron an advantage he would not have had, if Saruman had never looked into the palantir and been drawn into Sauron's web. He would have been a rival, but one free from any ties to Mordor, which ultimately could have made the situation for the West even worse.
That aside, I think there was a hefty dose of fear involved as well. At the same time that Saruman spoke with the Nazgul at Isengard, it is said that from that meeting, he perceived the full horror of service to Mordor, which nearly made him switch his allegiance back to Gandalf and the West. Once he lost his valuable prisoner (and became angry because of it), he was definitely in a pinch. If he remains in Orthanc and reports in to Sauron, he will certainly face the Dark Lord's wrath for allowing Gandalf to escape (which he likely could not have concealed from him, which would explain why he had not reported for so long). Staying there and keeping silent, he at least retained some semblance of power. But if he leaves -- particularly after he knows the Nine are abroad and searching for the same thing he wants -- he is in danger from both sides, the old and new allies he has betrayed. If he had known exactly where the Ring was and who had it, he might have taken the risk of riding after it, hoping to get it first so that by the time the Nazgul caught up with him, he would be the new Ring Lord -- but that was pretty chancy, since he didn't know more than "in the Shire." Did that make any sense? Maybe not. Head's still ringing from last night's concert. And a Merry Christmas Eve!
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12-24-2008, 10:22 AM | #3 | |||
Gruesome Spectre
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Saruman obviously suspected the Shire had some special importance to Gandalf, but there is evidence that suspicion was all he had. Consider the conversation between Gandalf and Saruman and Orthanc. Quote:
Saruman did not know the One was in the Shire, or surely he would have gone there to get it, just as he told the Nazgūl. Quote:
The first evidence that Saruman had definite knowledge of the One's whereabouts isn't seen until the attack on the Fellowship at Parth Galen. He had to have been aware of their departure from Rivendell with a number of hobbits, and that was likely the deciding factor that gave him surety.
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12-24-2008, 02:42 PM | #4 | ||
Shade of Carn Dūm
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Thank you for the answers, Ibrin and Inziladun.
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In fact, he could go to the Shire either impersonating Gandalf (Saruman in TT was able to appear quite similar to Gandalf), or as Saruman the White, Gandalf's boss who replaced him in the hour of need: "I am sorry for bearing bad news, Frodo, but our dear friend Gandalf got eaten by wargs / captured by Sauron / drowned in the Anduin. I come in his stead, o worthy hobbit, to help you with your burden. The Nine are hunting for you. Trust me - I will take you to safety." Even Aragorn might have bought this story, let alone Frodo! Imprisoning Gandalf was a smart move. But it had to have a follow-up: Saruman had to go to the Shire himself. I think he didn't do it partly because of the reasons given by Ibrin, partly because he wasn't sure of the address, but mostly because he didn't have enough guts for a wannabe Dark Lord. Sauron, for instance, knew how to risk his life when the prize was big enough: he stayed long among the Noldor of Eregion, his old enemies, he went to Numenor as a prisoner. Saruman, in contrast, was essentially a coward. |
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12-24-2008, 02:43 PM | #5 |
Shade of Carn Dūm
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I think that the main reason Saruman did not immeditely go running to the shire was in its own way becuse he had made a great error in dealing with the WK, not so much in what he had kept hidden, but in what he hadn't. He had lied to the WK and he had no way of knowing how long it would be before the lie was exposed. More importantly he had (possibly inadvertently) said so fairly damming things to the WK, namely 1. that he knew what the WK was after and more importantly that, given the opportuntity, he would no hestitie to claim this item for himself. Given the fact that the WK is basically Sauron's right hand man, (in the absence of a new ringlord) and anything said to him is more or less guarneteed to wind up being reported to Sauron, this is a very foolish thing to say. The moment the message is recived by Sauron, Saruman will be kept under immediate and total survallaince, if he is allowed to remain free at all. With Gandalf gone Saruman is in even hotter water. I think that he assumes the following-
The moment the WK left he would have had suspisions as to Saruman's loyalty, the WK would then have posted some sort of spies, even possibly allowing one or two of the lesser riders to peel off and keep an eye on Saruman in secret. The moment Saruman made a move, the message would have gotten to the WK, at which point ALL the Nazgul would be hot on Saruman's trail, assuming that where he went the ring was. Saruman's only hope (and likely plan) was to wait until such time as the ring wraiths were, in thier searches all sufficiently far away from both him and the shire (given how small the shire was, it would be likey that without a good lead, the WK would miss it) that he could safely get to the shire before the Nazgul could catch up. Once there he would indeed have had little trouble finding Frodo or convincing him, The most likey story would have been as follows. Saruman arrives at Bag End (or if a little later meets the party on the road) and tells Frodo that due to pressing matters Gandalf is going to be delayed (as he said he might be) but that the matter the Ring was so important to Gandalf that he came and begged Saruman, who as head of the order of wizards was the greatest of the all, to come in the interim, to protect Frodo in his stead, and that He realizaing the great need, had consented. Alternitvely, he could have simply disgused himself as Gandalf, as It is doubtful that anyone he met would be able to see through the disguise. |
12-24-2008, 03:14 PM | #6 | ||
Shade of Carn Dūm
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Saruman had talked with the WK in the early hours on September 18, at the same time when Gandalf escaped from Orthanc. After that, indeed, it would have been foolish to go to the Shire - too late. Before that Saruman had two months free - at this time Gandalf was biting his nails atop Saruman's Tower, and the nazgul were off on the sightseeing trip up the Vales of Anduin, likely all the way to Gundabad, because Sauron had mistakenly sent them there. The road to the Shire was free. Saruman could go there and return with the Ring in two weeks. Quote:
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12-31-2008, 09:45 AM | #7 | |
Deadnight Chanter
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Another reason may have been psychology - Saruman has grown used to being the Lord of Orthank with all the benefits and comforts it brought along, being even afraid to an extent of venturing abroad alone (as opposed to Gandalf who's wandering about on his own most of the time). (cf. his heavy stress on 'destruction of his home' encountering the returning Lords of the West in Hollin and also remark made in conversation in Flotsam and Jetsam I believe about faded wizardry of Saruman's who has to rely on 'wheels and chains and slaves' now) It seems the mark of all beings going evil that they exhibit less courage the more evil they become (cf. Morgoth and his self-imposed confinement towards the end) and less will/capacity to independent action - you can tell the one has started going rotten as soon as they start to lean towards Denethor's wisdom (good captain sitting back sending forth his inferiors)
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12-31-2008, 11:06 AM | #8 |
Laconic Loreman
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Alfirin's analysis is a thing of beauty, and I will rep you for that post, when I can.
I guess to answer why Saruman hadn't acted before the WK arrived - now keep in mind this is my own rambling speculations - I have nothing as far as "proof." I think we should keep in mind that dangerous game Saruman was playing. He was not only deceiving Gandalf, and the rest of the Wise, into trusting him, but he was also trying to deceive Sauron. Saruman wanted to be the Ring Lord himself, he had to not only appeal to Sauron, but keep the trust of the "Wise." And when Elrond, hears of Saruman's betrayal, he is completely shocked (as was Gandalf). As Gandalf says in The Council of Elrond, even the greatest spiders leave a "weak thread," and Sarumans lies begin to unravel. When he's caught, he's got himself stuck in a vice; Gandalf comes after him to expel him from the Order and the Council, Sauron is after the presumed Hobbit that he captured. So, for Saruman, he was playing such a dangerous game, he had to keep up the act as long as possible. As Grishnakh says Sauron knows Saruman is "treacherous" and "the Eye is on him." (The Uruk-hai). My guess is Sauron had his eye on Saruman from the very beginning. Saruman might have thought he was keeping his true intent hidden, and Sauron might not have figured it out until later, but he definitely had Saruman under surveillance from the get go. Remember, that it was Saruman who is credited for driving Sauron out of Dol Guldur, and it is Saruman who did it to prevent Sauron from searching The Gladden Fields. This wasn't a loyal, trusting friendship, and I very highly doubt Sauron and Saruman went to counseling together to work our their past. Long story short, Saruman wanted to keep the Ring away from Sauron, just as much as he wanted it for himself. Had he gone racing off for the Ring when he first got news of where it probably was, this would have certainly tipped Sauron off sooner. On where the Ring was, and also Saruman's own treachery. Not only that, but the good guys would have learned about Saruman's betrayal a lot sooner than they did, when Gandalf spilled the beans (what a tattle tale! ). In a way, Saruman handcuffed himself, by the way he decided to play the game.
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01-01-2009, 05:02 PM | #9 | ||
Shade of Carn Dūm
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For instance, HerenIstarion agrees with me that Saruman may have hoped that Gandalf will come to Orthanc bringing the Ring. Yes, but then, when Gandalf came without the Ring, - why didn't Saruman change his plans accordingly? Read again the beginning of their memorable conversation: Quote:
Same problem he had in the talk with the Morgul Lord. It seems the Nazgul was not too polite in his "challenge and demands": we know he didn't bow and didn't call Saruman "lord". And look at it - mighty Saruman gets miffed and again tells much more than he should have, trying to impress the nazgul. Same problem at the parley in LOTR. Saruman tries to charm Theoden and for a time it seems that he might succeed. Gimli intervenes, then Eomer. Saruman rebukes both angrily, dissipating the effect of his main spell. Yes, psychology is quite important. Even when Saruman tries to do what he does best: tries to persuade somebody, he fails, because he has grown too sure of himself, too proud and easily offended. And when offended, he looses his temper and makes mistakes. |
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01-01-2009, 05:17 PM | #10 |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
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Humorously, this is just another example of Tolkien's 'wise' not being very wise, or perhaps merely lacking common sense. Inexplicably throughout Tolkien's mythos, those he accounts 'wise' make bad decisions, misjudge their foes, and basically display serious woodenheadedness. I'd cite several hundred examples, but I believe everyone gets the gist of what I'm saying.
Oftentimes, the simple Hobbits display more common sense than the educated elite. I suppose that is just a reflection of how things usually are in a real-world sense.
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01-09-2009, 11:01 AM | #11 |
Itinerant Songster
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As with Saruman and so many others, the wise succumb to pride while the humble do what must be done. It's Saruman's pride that is his undoing. 'Pride goes before a fall'.
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01-09-2009, 11:13 AM | #12 |
Shade of Carn Dūm
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Well - it is certainly true generally, but take Sauron in the Second Age. I guess the guy was always full of pride, but still he was clever enough to play his role of Annatar, the Lord of Gifts, to perfection. When Galadriel scorned him to his face, he only smiled humbly... the charmer.
I highly doubt Saruman could have succeeded in a similar situation. He was not of the right character for the role. |
01-10-2009, 10:59 AM | #13 |
Itinerant Songster
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I can think of two reasons for the differences between Sauron and Saruman.
1) Sauron was a greater Ainu and was therefore more powerful in his skills, spells, and personal presence. 2) Sauron fell early and had long ages of being wholly evil. Saruman had been good until perhaps the last 500 years of the Third Age; also, Tolkien depicts him at his "unstaffing" and at his death, as being at war with himself. When there's a civil war in any nation, that nation is far weaker than when unified. The same goes for people. However, one can distinguish between the listeners of the two. Who was taken in by Sauron, and who not? Same question for Saruman? One might suspect that Frodo would have been taken in by Saruman at the beginning, but he grew so much that he could see through Saruman in the end. The Eorlingas of Rohan were snowed by him. Theoden had to fight with a will to get his mind cleared enough to speak past the subtle lies, even in the face of recent events! Gimli is not fooled, which I find interesting and very satisfying. The Numenoreans were tending towards evil anyway, so it is no great surprise that they believed Sauron's lies. It is interesting however that the Elves of Eregion either could not, or refused to, see through his deceptions until it was too late; what does that say of them, as opposed to what it tells us of Sauron? |
01-10-2009, 11:29 AM | #14 | |
Gruesome Spectre
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He also appealed to their desire for healing and the slowing of decay or change. Being blinded by these 'character flaws', they didn't see Sauron's true nature and designs until he put on the One. What this tells us of Sauron we already knew: he was an extremely cunning tactician well able to take advantage of an enemy's weaknesses.
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01-16-2009, 09:39 AM | #15 | |||||
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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I was not around when this discussion had started at first, but I have thought about this problem a bit and so, I will throw what I think about it into place.
First, I believe there is lot of truth on what various people have said here, but after looking at it from all angles, there was not yet a complex answer put forth. But first, let me reply to just a few things on this thread which are of the less important nature, before I move to the main topic itself: Quote:
Another note, again, not very important for the main topic itself: Quote:
And one more slight correction: Quote:
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More importantly. Once the Nine left Isengard, Saruman could not hope much in reaching the Ring earlier than them. We read on many places how fast the Nine's steeds were (I believe there is something like that about Asfaloth, that not even the Nine can match his speed? Or certainly Shadowfax). That means, I don't think Saruman could have sent a messenger to his Shire agents (like Sackville-Bagginses [sic!]) who would reach it earlier than the Nine (who have already set out by the time Saruman could have instructed and sent anyone). In any case, even with Saruman's messenger, there was this risk of him being intercepted by the Riders: he certainly could not send anybody out right after the Riders went. And mainly, he had other problems by that time - Gandalf had escaped, and what to do now... (I believe Saruman might have - and likely did, as he would have liked to get at least some information, or have the chance to intercept the Ring himself - sent somebody later; indeed, it is well possible - and Gandalf, or was it Aragorn? thought that too - that this Southerner in Bree might have been in Saruman's service, or at least double-dealing with both the Riders and Saruman. But that was only later on, many days passed between the Riders coming to Isengard and the moment when the Hobbits came to Bree.) Anyway - that was about why did not Saruman do anything AFTER the Riders came. But what about the time since Saruman imprisoned Gandalf till the time when they came? Quote:
And Saruman was trying to look like a friend to both sides. So, with Gandalf locked up, and presuming that Sauron does not know where exactly to look (his Nine were apparently searching in Anduin Vales, still far enough). Saruman was angry, like it was said here, he could not control his lust, which had kind of ruined a good chance for him to learn about the Ring's whereabouts, or he underestimated Gandalf, thinking him a fool who would give away the information, or betray the Free Peoples. But still, he could hope that Gandalf will break and tell him before the Riders find the Ring. Of course, it was playing with time, so Saruman did very likely mobilise his agents around the Shire. However, it was not as easy: the Shire had been protected by the Rangers for a long time and Saruman's agents could not come and go as freely as they used to in years long past. And as the last, the reason for Saruman not to go for the Ring before imprisioning Gandalf: it has been, I believe, sort of solved before on this thread. Saruman really did not know where the Ring is, and when trying to keep the face of an ally, he did the best thing he could - invite and imprison Gandalf, it was really I believe the most clever way he could. He heard (as Radagast told to Gandalf) that the Riders are out and asking about the land of "the Shire". This is, I believe, the first time Saruman ever thought of the Shire in connection to the Ring. You can imagine him: "What? The NINE??? Asking for the SHIRE? Wait - oh NO! WHAT AND IDIOT I WAS!" - and he immediately came up with a plan, and called Radagast to bring Gandalf...
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01-16-2009, 01:14 PM | #16 |
Pile O'Bones
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Yeah, I think you pretty much covered the answer with that
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01-16-2009, 03:01 PM | #17 |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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You have never seen my first post ever, have you (No, it was shorter... but it was the first... )
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01-17-2009, 03:42 PM | #18 | ||||
Shade of Carn Dūm
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Great that you have found time to participate in the discussion, Legate.
First my comments on the minor points from the beginning of your post Quote:
With Saruman he had nothing of this kind of safety precautions. I think Sauron realized that Saruman, given the opportunity, would definitely try to grab the Ring. But then again, Sauron was sure that ANYONE would desire to do the same: the Wise, Elves, Men, Orcs, Trolls - no one could be trusted in this matter. So Sauron couldn't really hold Saruman's lust for the Ring against him. It was simply unavoidable. Perhaps the Witch-King reasoned this way as well, thus he was not shocked when Saruman said: "And if I knew where this thing was hid, I should not be here, but long gone before you to take it." It was the most damning thing of what he said, but it simply proved his desire for the Ring, which was a given anyway. Another thing was to learn that Saruman had acted upon his desire, fooling Sauron about the location of the Shire. It was damning, but it also had to be expected. Quote:
But if "Lord" in this sentence indeed equals "Master", it becomes even more interesting. We know from Letter #246, that even with the One Ring, Saruman wouldn't become the Master of the Nazgul, because they were fully subservient to the Nine Rings which Sauron held, not the One. Sauron would always have primary control over the nazgul, while Saruman would only have secondary control. The question is: did Saruman realize it? Perhaps he didn't. Perhaps he had no idea about Sauron's safety precautions regarding the Nine and deluded into thinking that getting the One would bring the nazgul to his side? There is another piece of evidence that would confirm this theory. Gandalf said at the Council: " The Nine the Nazgūl keep" (the quote that gives everyone a lot of headache when the Nine Rings are discussed, as it contradicts all the other quotes). Now, most of Gandalf's information on the Ring-lore came from Saruman. Perhaps Gandal's words at the Council reflected Saruman's own mistake? Then the conversation at the Gates becomes somewhat funny. Saruman tries to impress the nazgul and, due to his magic Voice, almost succeeds. The nazgul depart somewhat dazed. Then half a mile away, the WK asks "Do you recall, Khamul, what did the wizard say? Didn't he mention he wanted to get the Ring and become our Master?" "I think so, milord" "He-he, the old white fool can always hope " General laugh. Quote:
Yet, I think the WK's decision to personally guard the Greenway - the approaches to Bree from the direction of Isengard - was partly caused by his knowledge of Saruman's betrayal. Saruman could have come in person after all - or release Gandalf (which is almost what had happened) or even make peace with him. In the latter case, the two Maiar could have come together to fight the nazgul. That would have been hard to counter. Quote:
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01-18-2009, 12:55 PM | #19 | |||||
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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But in any case, I still do not believe that Saruman said anything awkward by the gate. He was maybe exaggerating, or simplifying things, it was, from my point of view, rather a "metaphorical figure" from him. Simply put: I do not believe Saruman meant to say anything, not even that he slipped anything about his real intentions with the Ring; and at the same time, I do not believe that the WK ever thought of it as something like that. Simply, a normal dialogue. And that would also explain the seemingly illogical thing about the Ringwraith calling him "Lord", even though they still should not obey him even if he had the Ring: it was all just a figure of speech, an exaggeration, a way to (as I read it!) emphasise the point: "No, as of course you must realise yourselves, I don't have it" - and that, between the lines, also points to that of course I have no idea at all where it may be! A very clever way to put it to the listener, like saying: "If you think I have it, you must disbelieve your own senses! What do your feelings say? Nothing? So you see for yourselves, with your own innermost evidence which cannot be fooled, that I have nothing in common with the Ring at all. I am an innocent dove, never even heard about any Ring, la-la-laa..." Quote:
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01-19-2009, 03:54 PM | #20 | ||||
Shade of Carn Dūm
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On a tangent, the more I think about this Isengard scene, the less "normal" it seems to me. First of all: why did Sauron send the Nine to Saruman if he was supposed to have direct contact with him via the Palantir? Sauron believed that Saruman knew the location of the Shire, so why not ask the Wizard directly? The explanation must be that by September 3018 Saruman had not used the Palantir for a long time. It seems that, after his failure to turn Gandalf to his side, he sat there in fear and doubt and more and more became inclined to drop everything, and to repent. That's why maybe he didn't go to the Shire. He almost repented, when the nazgul actually came (UT), but it was too late, Gandalf was gone. Second. OK Sauron sends his most trusted servants to his faithful ally Saruman. Instead of showing warm welcome: blowing trumpets, sending forth uruks with flowers etc., Saruman churlishly keeps the Nine at the gates and uses the intercom. Well, maybe the nazgul themselves were not so looking forward to feather beds of Isengard, but their horses certainly could use some good fodder and grooming. Such a rude reception was really unseemly when dealing with the most high-ranking Mordor officials. - Again, I think it reflected Saruman's current state of mind: he most regretted his hasty alliance with Mordor, hoped for reconciliation with Gandalf and didn't want to broadcast his alliance with Mordor before the eyes of Gandalf. Third. Why did Saruman started speaking about the Ring at all? Nobody asked him about it, only about the Shire. Why reveal his knowledge of the connection? The wish to impress the nazgul with his wisdom seems a bit childish. Perhaps his words (the first part of the conversation in The Hunt version C) were meant more for Gandalf than for the WK? The message to the Grey wizard would be "see I know where the Ring is, I know where the Shire is, but I tell the nazgul nothing. I can still be trusted." Quote:
Moreover, there was another factor, not yet discussed in this thread - Faramir's and Boromir's dream. Quote:
Saruman was a Maia, he had an inside knowledge of the Music, he knew who had likely sent the dream. Saruman had reasons to believe that whatever he may do, he would be unable to change what had been ordained. So-why even try? |
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01-19-2009, 04:50 PM | #21 | |||||
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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01-19-2009, 05:38 PM | #22 |
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Why didn't Saruman (and indeed Sauron too) not just use their Palantir to search for the Ring ?
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01-19-2009, 06:42 PM | #23 | |
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Legate - loved your post. Will reply later. |
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01-20-2009, 07:33 AM | #24 |
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There are two puzzles here, and I'm not sure either can be answered, except by observing of course that in The Hunt For the Ring Tolkien was trying to backwrite history for the story he wrote at a time he had no idea who or what the Black Riders were, or even what had become of Gandalf!
1). My memory may be failing, but I don't recall that Radagast ever told Saruman the Nine were seeking 'the Shire.' What Saruman knew in June was that the BR were searching the Vales of Anduin, which of course he was content to let them waste their time doing. 2) On the other hand, it's amazing that over the course of sixty years Saruman and his intelligence network had never heard the tale of "Mad Baggins," and put two and two together.
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didnt know, and when he didnt know it. |
01-20-2009, 08:04 AM | #25 | ||
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01-20-2009, 11:20 AM | #26 |
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I wouldn't say that. What plothole? As much as Sauron never heard about "Mad Baggins" and put two and two together. Nobody knew that Bilbo has the Ring. People did not even know that he is making himself invisible, until the birthday party (where they actually didn't know that he is making himself invisible, but simply that he disappeared. Probably, speaking a bit in the folk-tale-style, the Devil took him finally, since he was obviously making pacts with dark forces: "Sign this and I will give you fame, money and long life... but on your 111th birthday, I will come for you!" - this is pretty evidently the way the tale was narrated later, and Saruman had no special reason to pay attention to this tale than to other folk-tales among the hobbits, about walking trees in the North Moors etc. After all, he was a reasonable and educated man, who does not bother himself with these made-up tales the common folk scares themselves on long winter nights). Bilbo disappeared, that's a fact, but why should that bother Saruman any more than the fact that some random Mr. G. Took from XY mysteriously disappeared two years ago (he was drunk and fell into the river and drowned), or things like that.
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01-20-2009, 12:00 PM | #27 |
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Saruman had agents in the Shire and was most curious about Gandalf's actions there. Wouldn't he be interested by the memorable Party where Gandalf provided all the fireworks and where the host just disappeared into thin air before the eyes of the assembled 144 hobbits? And the story circulated even in Bree!
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01-20-2009, 12:13 PM | #28 | |
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01-20-2009, 01:08 PM | #29 |
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01-23-2009, 10:25 AM | #30 | |||||||
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Legate, I still own you a reply to your post.
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Unfortunately, only the version A is given in full. In B the talk is much the same, Christopher says, in C it is altered - the first part is not reported word for word, but Saruman in fear admits he has Gandalf within. Then he makes the nazgul wait till he climbs the Tower, sees G. gone, decends to the Gate, and Quote:
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The scenes with the nazgul before the Gates of Isengard and the questioning of Grima are very compelling and powerful. Pity we see no interaction between bad guys in LOTR (except between orcs, like the talk between Gorbag and Shagrat which I love as well). Quote:
If Saruman believed the prophecy, he would know it was useless to try to prevent it. Sauron also knew this prophecy, but tried to stop the Ring nonetheless. But the prophecy speaks not of further events. After Imladris, Saruman's hands were free - and he acted. |
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01-23-2009, 11:59 AM | #31 | |
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Except that, assuming Sauron put any credence in a lowly Mannish fortuneteller, he still didn't know what Isildur's Bane was. That was known only to the Wise, and though Saruman was a traitor we can be certain that anything related to the Ring he kept to himself and didn't share with the Eye.
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That doesn't of course eliminate the possibility of spies. What I found interesting is that notwithstanding the Gandalf affair, and Saruman's lies to the Nazgul, Sauron nonetheless ordered Grishnakh to cooperate with Ugluk, long before Amon Hen. (T gives great detail on the actions of these two in his time-schemes: both were despatched as soon as messages reached Barad-dur and Orthanc of the Bridge of Khazad-dum. Ugluk, having less distance to cover, was already lurking on the eaves of Lorien a week after Gandalf's fall. Ghrishnakh made contact with them near Sarn Gebir, and on the 2nd "Grishnįkh reinforced. Ordered to cooperate with Uglśk. (Sauron does not yet suspect Saruman). " That Sauron sure was a trusting fella! But then we see that as late as Dol Baran he actually assumed Saruman would simply hand over the Ringbearer on demand. Wise fool.
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didnt know, and when he didnt know it. Last edited by William Cloud Hicklin; 01-23-2009 at 12:11 PM. |
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01-24-2009, 06:20 AM | #32 | ||||
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01-24-2009, 09:51 AM | #33 | |
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For that matter, did Sauron even know that Isildur took the Ring? He was already 'dead.' PJ notwithstanding, it was Elendil and Gil-galad who did him in: Isildur was just looting the corpse. In short, Isildur's possession of the Ring was known to very, very few: Elrond, the sole witness, and the survivors of the Gladden. Elrond's knowledge was circulated among the Wise, but is was always highly classified information.
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didnt know, and when he didnt know it. |
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01-24-2009, 02:07 PM | #34 | |||||
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That the Ring caused Isildur's death by slipping off was a surmise made by the Wise - but Sauron could make the same surmise just as easily. After all, he knew his Ring better then the Wise did. Quote:
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in the letter 211 Tolkien writes: Quote:
As for Sauron's body, I guess it had decomposed as swiftly as Saruman's - weren't they both incarnate Maiar? Maybe faster, because it was indeed hot and burning. Natural combustion-and there is nothing to loot and nothing to dispose of. |
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01-24-2009, 02:29 PM | #35 |
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Hmmmm. You're right, there.
All the same, Sauron waited until ca. 2940 to begin searching the Gladden Fields. Which means... I'm not sure. It took him that long to learn of Isildur's fall? Not likely- surely all Gondor's history was in the libraries of Minas Ithil when he took it, and I'm sure he had spies among the Gondorians and/or Black Numenoreans and/or rebel Umbar. Just took him that long to expand his power from Dol Guldur? But even so, there would have been no particular reason for Sauron to think 'Isildur's Bane' was the Ring- it could have been an arrow, or a scimitar, or his horse..... The forensic investigation of the scene was carried out by the Elves, not the recently-extinct Orc-band. How likely would Sauron have been, really, to be aware of Malbeth's prophecy? Who knew of it, aside from the Wise and the cheftains of the Dunedain? And even if he did, would he have believed it? I'm sure the history of the Third Age was littered with Nostrodamuses, most of whom were spouting rubbish.
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didnt know, and when he didnt know it. Last edited by William Cloud Hicklin; 01-24-2009 at 02:32 PM. |
01-25-2009, 02:04 AM | #36 | |
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Isildur's Bane was spoken about in a dream that first Faramir, then Boromir had seen in June 3018. It was a fairly recent dream - and troubling. Sauron learned of these "oracular dream-words", as did Saruman (see UT, Hunt for the Ring). Denethor was troubled enough to send the Captain-General of Gondor to search the answers in the middle of nowhere, and this right after the assault on Osgiliath. At the moment, Sauron was frantically searching for the Ring - the nazgul were out looking for the Shire and Baggins. It was quite simple to dechipher "Isildur's bane", sign of Doom that is at hand. |
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01-27-2009, 05:23 AM | #37 | ||||||
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And as for the hypothesis of him seeing it with the Palantķr, possible, but still, I am not sure how much accurately he could see with it - if there was not any "interference" because of the distance, or perhaps because of Saruman's art or something else? Quote:
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As for the Nazgul, it was some sort of "taboo" - Nazgul simply are NOT crossing the river, that's an order. You have to consider that we are looking at it from our a bit postmodern point of view, but it is something similar as when let's say in some ancient culture, people were banned to wear yellow colour. Sometimes, it did not even have any logical explanation why they should not do so, but it simply was the way it was done. You simply don't do that. Point. Quote:
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01-27-2009, 07:10 AM | #38 |
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Isn't there a bit in the Unfinished Tales "The Tragedy of the Gladden Fields" or something like that. That more or less says expicitly that Saruman, not only knew where Isuldur fell but had in fact dug him up and scattered or destroyed his bones, and kept the varios things found with the body (like the orginal Gondorian crown)?
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01-27-2009, 07:16 AM | #39 | |
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01-27-2009, 09:33 AM | #40 |
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However, I would think that that occurred very late, after Saruman went entirely bad. As a member of the White Council Saruman naturally would have known about the Gladden Fields just as Gandalf did.
Numbers: The Chronology, which with luck will be published before long, casts a lot of light on Enemy movements. It's fairly clear that although on the one hand G and U were nominally 'cooperating', it's also the case that Sauron's original plan was to intercept the Company at Sarn Gebir, keeping Ugluk well out of it. After the ambush failed, G crossed the river but with only a small part of his Orcs, because crossing the River at the Rapids was not easy or quick, and because he couldn't leave the east bank of the River unguarded. In the meantime, Ugluk in the Emyn Muil had not only his Isengarders, but a substantial party of Mountain-orcs he had brought down from Moria. In other words G was substantially outnumbered, and thus was forced to feign cooperation and simply keep an eye on Ugluk, orders which were reinforced by the second Nazgul when he broke away for 'consultation.' (Note that G left Ugluk's party by himself; the forty Uruks he returned with were apparently new reinforcements. Whatever Orc-commandos he had crossed with apparently were killed at Amon Hen, or by Ugluk in the Emyn Muil. The forty new guys one would think were 'picked Orcs,' since their forced march/marathon to the eaves of Fangorn was the most astounding feat of any of the parties crossing Rohan: 100 miles in 35 hours.)
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didnt know, and when he didnt know it. |
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