Sauron vs Olorin 1on1

Since they both are maia is it likely that they were equal in power?

Could gandalf the white beat sauron 1on1?


Another thought, if Sauron recovered the ring and consumed middle earth do you think the valar would have launch War of Wrath II: Manwe's revenge in order to take back the arda or is it more likely that all the elves and their lords would have been weary of us stupid men by that time?

[King Turgon]

I think I remeber seeing that even as Gandalf the White, he was still weaker than Sauron.

As for War of Wrath II, wouldn't that be interesting [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Pukel-Man]

Since we never learn of the extent of the powers both posess, I would have to give the edge to Sauron. I would say this because he has had more "practice" with his powers than Olorin ( rebuilding Mordor controlling his minions etc).

[Lindolirian]

Olorin was the wisest, but Sauron was more powerful. Olorin beat Sauron in the LotR because he was wiser, so I think that explains itself.

[zacattack]

Olorin is wiser but Sauron is alot physically stronger.

[tangerine]

true. It also said in UT that Olorin did not really want to go to ME because he feared Sauron.

Well, considering Sauron is a greater Maia than Olorin, and the quest of destroying the one ring was partially accomplished by sheer dumb luck, I highly doubt Olorin is a match for Sauron, even with the free peoples support behind him. Had Sauron taken over the Middle Earth no one knows for sure if there would have indeed been a war of wrath. No one could know for sure. We can probably guess what it takes to have the Valar wage a war of wrath, from the history all along.

[ December 24, 2002: Message edited by: Sauron's devoted servant ]

[obloquy]

I invite all of you to back up your claim that Sauron is 'a lot more powerful than Olórin'. You will check various sources and realize that you can provide no such support. Please explore this thread, this thread, this one, and read the quotes I posted here.

[Galorme]

That depends on what times. During the First Age Sauron had a lot of physical power and Olorin never really took physical form. In the 3rd Age Sauron had vertually no physical strength. If you could go one on one with him even Frodo could have crushed his weak physical force. All the rest of his power had gone into the ring, Baraddur and his armies.

[Pukel-Man]

Well if you take into account that Gandalf was bested by Saruman and imprisioned atop the tower, and Saruman's powers were subservient to Sauron- the logical outcome would be be a victory for Sauron.

[ December 24, 2002: Message edited by: Pukel-Man ]

[Galorme]

One on One though, actually physical fisticuffs strength, power in the body. Saruman was bested by the influence of Sauron, his armies and his lands, not him personally. The might of his will was great as well, but actually physical strength? Remember a man and a elf bested him at that when he was at the height of his power.

[Pukel-Man]

Are we speaking of physical might here or of their otherworldly powers? All have tremendous "wizardly" powers and are wise beyond reckoning, but the cunning and deceit of the dark lord may prove to be too much.

[Galorme]

Good point. They were not roughly equal in power at the start, but they both took significant blows to the power available to them. If you take Sauron as being the entity contained in the Eye (or whatever his physical form was) at the end of the third age I doubt he would be able to stand up to much. But if you take it as Sauron, the dispersed and hugely potent being that inhibits the ring, the tower, and the entire mass of orcs etc then it would be hugely powerful. If you take Olorin as being the being contained and restricted inside the body of Gandalf then he would also be, if not weak, not too strong by Maia standards. If you took him as the powerful wise being that lay in wait inside of the old man then he is also hugely powerful. So it depends, with restrictions probably Gandalf, without probably Sauron.

[obloquy]

The difference between my contention and yours (all of you) is that I support mine with text quotes and logical arguments, while you're content to repeat yourselves over and over without any textual backing.

[Pukel-Man]

Show me a quote from a book describing this one on one confrontation between Olorin and Sauron and who the victor was. Until then its all conjecture.

[obloquy]

Did you look at the threads I linked to?

We can look to Tolkien's work to find out how the two spirits, Sauron and Olórin, compared to each other in spiritual potency. The research has already been done for you and presented in the threads I linked to, all you have to do is read it.

You're partially right, though. If this discussion is intended to be about who would win in a boxing match between Sauron and Gandalf, all you're going to get is conjecture. But I did not post conjecture about such an encounter, I posted refutation for the annoying and frequent comment that 'Sauron is tons more strongerer than Gandalf'. If this thread is about Sauron and Gandalf duking it out, it should be moved to Novices & Newcomers, because that's where the stupid threads go to die.

[Galorme]

[Edit: I dont think this is insulting, its just me giving some quotes]

a) they were equal in the begging: it says just this in UT p.395. Gandalf was a

lesser (but mighty) spirit of the angelic people, one coeval and equal with sauron in their begginings

b) UT also says the istari

were forbiden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty

c)In HoME X it describes how Morgoth's and Sauron's power was disipated. The Chapter is Myths Transformed, parts . Look it up yourself there is loads there. This is a good one

Sauron was greater in the second age because he had not yet squandered his power of being to gain control of others

That is why he is more powerful, or concentrated in the second age.

Thats all I can do for now, I have presents to wrap. Merry Christmas all.

[ December 25, 2002: Message edited by: Galorme ]

[obloquy]

now now thats just plain condensending. Are we here to discuss things or insult each other?

I didn't insult anyone; I stated fact. Five people posted in this thread to say that Sauron is stronger than Gandalf, and none of them gave any text to support the claim. I still have not seen any.

I am very familiar with your quotes, as they are part of the arguments I present in the threads I linked to. I must say, you misrepresent Tolkien quite well. Your first UT quote says that Olórin was lesser than Eönwë, not Sauron -- but you cut that part out. Again, with your quote from MT, you misquote. Not only do you paraphrase Tolkien and present it as an actual quotation, you also leave out the part where Tolkien says who Sauron was greater than. He wasn't speaking of Sauron in comparison to Gandalf, he was comparing Sauron at the height of his power to Morgoth at his weakest.

I'm appalled at your abuse of Tolkien's writings.

[Pukel-Man]

I did read your links and they are in fact well-researched. I do not disagree with you Obloquy, I think we are trapped in one of those vexing threads that really has no definitive answer. Sort of like those annoying Superman v.(insert favorite superhero here) battles. In any event Happy Holidays to fans of ME.

[Galorme]

[Edit: This clears up some stuff with the Quotes that was incorrect, or unlear:]

I was not saying he was greater than Gandalf, merely that he was greater in the second age than in the third. The fact that he was greater than Morgoth in the Second age but not in the third shows a reduction in power, which doesn't need to be connected to anyone else.

I was only showing that Gandalf was equal to Sauron, as the quote says, the fact that he is lesser that Eönwë doesn't matter.

[ December 25, 2002: Message edited by: Galorme ]

[obloquy]

I think it's laughable that you actually deny that your post misrepresents Tolkien. You posted a sentence fragment and implied a very different meaning than what Tolkien intended. You also posted a paraphrasing that was presented as an actual quote, which you seem to have intentionally misapplied to a discussion of Sauron and Gandalf. When the question is whether Sauron or Gandalf is greater, posting 'Sauron was greater in the second age...' as a quote of Tolkien himself is extremely deceptive.

Do you disagree with this: That the passage implies that Sauron's power decreased between the ages?

Yes, I do disagree, because it is not that simple and mechanical. There were reasons for Sauron's power fluctuation, not just that he was 'shrinking.' He did not dissipate his power as Morgoth did; he concentrated it into one object. I think you might want to read the essay in MT again, and perhaps also look at this thread for a better understanding of this concept.

[ December 24, 2002: Message edited by: obloquy ]

[Bêthberry]

Gentlemen,

Please stick to the topic without casting aspersions on each other.

Bethberry

[Galorme]

He did not only concentrate it in the ring, he also used it up by forcing his will upon his armies.

[Edit: This seems to be all I had in this post that wasn't rude [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] I am really sorry guys]

[ December 25, 2002: Message edited by: Galorme ]

[Bêthberry]

I'm not the mod on this thread, Galorme--just a fellow Downer who was hoping the discussion could be salvaged before it reached a point of no return.

Remember you have an audience beyond those you post with directly. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Bethberry

[-Imrahil-]

Um, he fought with Saruman BEFORE he became Gandalf the white. Gandalf the grey is basically a different person.

I do not have the time to pluck up all quotes but it's mentioned in many places that Gandalf was afraid of Sauron. He was afraid of going to middle earth in the first place. And he was also not sure about wielding the palantir, it's pretty obvious that he was not sure whether he could withstand the will of Sauron. but after all, Sauron had his weak points, too much power and being too sure of yourself sometimes causes disaster, you know...

And take it easy, people, what is all this temper? Merry Xmas!!!!

[ December 24, 2002: Message edited by: Sauron's devoted servant ]

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Oh my, apparently the spirit of peace and goodwill that I was enjoying while celebrating Christmas did not extend to this thread. Personal insults are considered flaming and are not acceptable by the rules of the Barrow-Downs. This thread is closed so that the participants calm down and to give me time to clean it up. If those involved would like to edit their own posts, please contact me by PM, otherwise I will be editing to remove the offensive passages. Thank you!

(edit: reopened for editing)

[ December 25, 2002: Message edited by: Estelyn Telcontar ]