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12-02-2008, 01:27 PM | #1 |
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Education in Middle Earth
Great was the Lore of the High Elves and Loremasters in Middle Earth, who had much knowledge of wisdom and of power, amongst other qualities. But what of other races? What level of education and skill development was available to the lesser races of Middle Earth? Did the other races truly reach their potential?
Dwarfs were the masters of craft and mining? Wood Elves were masterful in archery, singing and secrecy? Men were skilled in armoury and sword play, but what else? And Hobbits? Cookery, pipeweed lore, poems, amongst other interests? Was there a school in the Shire for little Hobbits? |
12-02-2008, 02:02 PM | #2 |
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Before schools existed parents passed their knowledge from parent to child. I imagine hobbits and other races would follow the same sort of pattern. Especially hobbits, they were an agriculturally centered society, why go to school to learn how to farm when a father or uncle can teach you?
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12-02-2008, 03:02 PM | #3 |
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Hi Mansun and Kitanna,
I think you're pretty much right on the hobbits. Most didn't learn to read and write (mentioned in LoTR), the Gaffer worries that Sam being taught by Bilbo might give him 'ideas above his station'. (Which luckily it does ). I wonder if the wealthier hobbits (eg Merry and Pippin) were taught by personal tutors? But agree that learning could easily be passed down in the family. There are no mentions of schools in Middle Earth that I can think of, perhaps Gondor might be the likeliest place if any existed? Certainly the Gondorians and Dwarves were quite well educated, I guess anyone involved in trade must have had some of the 3Rs, eg the Lakemen, Sandyman, Saruman's human servants etc. Rohan appears to have more of an oral tradition (also the Beornings?), not to say that this isn't learning of course, but just a different way. No doubt the nobility of Rohan were literate and Grima seems a classic 'scribe'.
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12-02-2008, 03:07 PM | #4 |
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Well, The Shire had its own calendar, a not inconsiderable achievement of social development.
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12-02-2008, 03:14 PM | #5 |
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It is a pity that the Shire did not have a centre of excellence, e.g. a monastery, where new skills, lore and craft could be learned and taught from generation to generation, until a guild of stewards was formed to protect the values, ethics and development of the centre. Hobbits were not religious though, so a monastery was not really an option. This may have saved many Hobbits from disease, such as obesity, lung cancer and binge drinking, to name but a few health benefits.
Clearly history and geography were popular subjects among the lore of all races in Middle Earth. But what of sport? Surely at least Hobbits could have had a mini Olympic Games? Last edited by Mansun; 12-02-2008 at 03:37 PM. |
12-02-2008, 04:26 PM | #6 |
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A pie eating contest seems a more likely option than olympic games. Any sort of contest you'd find at a county fair, (cooking, livestock, vegetable contests), all are closer to a hobbit's taste than games of strength and will. They were simple folk and simple contests would have fit them well.
Olympic type games would have been better suited in the world of men. Archery, riding, etc. were already being taught to young men so contests like that make more sense in the world of Big People.
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12-02-2008, 04:38 PM | #7 | |
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Last edited by Mansun; 12-03-2008 at 12:23 PM. |
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12-02-2008, 05:05 PM | #8 | |
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Well, thinking back to the passages that introduced the Mouth of Sauron, we see:
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Now there's an interesting thought: what kind of education do they give you at Mordor? Torture 101 with Professor Khaműl. Or Metallurgy 243: The Forging of Morgul Blades, with a mandatory lab component. |
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12-02-2008, 05:10 PM | #9 | |
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12-02-2008, 05:14 PM | #10 | |
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12-02-2008, 05:53 PM | #11 | ||
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And Bombur was a dwarf, not a hobbit. Quote:
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"Let us live so that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry." - Mark Twain Last edited by Kitanna; 12-02-2008 at 05:58 PM. |
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12-02-2008, 07:19 PM | #12 |
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There is a dearth of information regarding education in Lord of the Rings, along with virtually no information regarding minting of coins, commerce (there is more commerce referred to in the Hobbit than in all of LotR), taxation, military organization (outside the 'Captain' title), and any number of professions (scribes, for instance, are not mentioned, and mortal minstrels only two times I can recall).
In the Shire, one would assume that the mass of the population was illiterate, save for the middle and upper classes (for whom there was a thriving postal service). For instance, the Gaffer, based on his colloquial and malaprop ridden speech, was illiterate, and Samwise only learned to read based on the kindly intervention of Bilbo and Frodo. Interestingly, we know some female Hobbits could read (based on their correspondence with Bilbo). I would assume the dissemination of knowledge was strictly a family affair, passed on from parents to children. In Rohan, I would again assume the majority of the populous was illiterate, mirroring, perhaps, early Anglo-Saxon settlements where history was passed along orally by scops and not written down. In Gondor, education of any sort is seemingly on the decline. The very rich (like Boromir and Faramir) would of course have their personal tutors as part of their households; but based on Gandalf finding information regarding Isildur in Minas Tirith's archives that had long been forgotten by Gondor's scholars, it is obvious that there is only a reverence for the form of the past and not an actual study of history. This is also evidenced by Gondor's healers being quite ignorant (the babbling Ioreth for instance), which caused Aragorn much irritation. Of the Dwarves, we know they wrote rambling contracts in legalese (Thorin for instance), and their avidity for commerce and their natural acquisitiveness made them a likely race for cultural literacy; for where there are accountants, there is the writing of lists, documents, inventories and such. Tolkien mentions on several occasions the Dwarves' fondness for the Cirth, as well as their secret language.
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12-02-2008, 08:40 PM | #13 | ||
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Plus those family genealogies had to come from some form of literacy. And, as I posited above, any society which produces its own calendar is not devoid of knowledge. A formal system of education is not the only means of developing character, industry, skill, and art. Just the most bureacratic.
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12-03-2008, 06:24 AM | #14 |
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It's quite possible. In pre-pasterization there was a limit to how far you could ship beer before it began to spoil so most, if not all, of the Shire's beer was likey locally produced. Pippin also mentions his desire to have stopped at the Golden Perch on the ground that they have "the best beer in the West farthing" (or something like that" which seems to indicate that that place, at least has beer that is likey locally produced, or at least in some way different from other beers Pippin has drunk.
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12-03-2008, 12:19 PM | #15 |
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Kitanna, I have a Masters Degree in Biological Sciences from a leading UK University, so please do not insult my intelligence. I meant Bombur in relation to Dwarves as opposed to Hobbits, as one could make out despite the error, give or take a little, from the original sentence. For your benefit, I have edited the paragraph above.
Last edited by Mansun; 12-03-2008 at 12:26 PM. |
12-03-2008, 12:32 PM | #16 | |
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Being a secret race we have little information about them, my guess is that the lower ranking families and their sons worked in the mines while some ascended to jewel crafting or making "magical toys" like we saw at Bilbo's birthday party.
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12-03-2008, 12:33 PM | #17 | |
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The paranthetical phrase (which I have underlined), referencing Bombur, is in agreement with the subject of the sentence, Hobbits (which is in bold print); ergo -- and Kitanna is entirely correct -- your sentence indicates that Bombur is a Hobbit. Therefore a mistake has been made on your part, and rather than getting indignant, you should gracefully accept the correction.
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12-03-2008, 12:33 PM | #18 | ||
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Edit: Morthoron seems to have said better what I was going for. Quote:
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"Let us live so that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry." - Mark Twain Last edited by Kitanna; 12-03-2008 at 12:43 PM. |
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12-03-2008, 03:09 PM | #19 |
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Closed to give everyone time to cool down. The thread will reopen tomorrow.
Reason: Way too many personal remarks and insults! I don't care who starts, but must all of you jump on the bandwagon? All posts which are not primarily concerned with the topic of the thread will be edited or deleted.
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12-04-2008, 05:00 PM | #20 |
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Dwarves took an interest in music, as did Men, Elves, Hobbits, and even Orcs (at least in singing evil songs), within different tastes and circumstances. Dwarves, I believe, were the only race to play a musical instrument, and as this activity is known to boost spatial brain power, this could have explained their immense skill in craft and mining. But the great lore masters, such as Gandalf and Elrond, saw little use or need for such activities. Note though that Gandalf, like Hobbits, found the subject of blowing smoke rings very amusing, so there is a similarity!
Last edited by Mansun; 12-04-2008 at 05:04 PM. |
12-04-2008, 05:26 PM | #21 |
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Boogie Woogie Bugledwarf
Hi Mansun,
Looks to me like all the races played musical instruments- Esty's Music Thread (and links within) Though the orcs seemed fondest of percussion and braying horns, so exactly how musical that was I don't know . The dwarves seem to be the only clarinet-ists, those metal keys and twiddly bits look tricky to make so perhaps only they had the necessary metal-working skills? The Saucepan Man reckoned Gandalf was a demon on the Hammond Organ, but I'd take that with a pinch of salt if I were you. Oh, and Elrond was a harpist. It often used to be reckoned a useful accomplishment for men and women of 'noble birth' to learn an instrument, perhaps Elrond had harp classes back in the the First Age? Was thinking on the more general education question and apprenticeships seems to be how trades and skills were learnt in the Shire. Wasn't the Gaffer 'prenticed to Old Holman to learn his gardening?
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12-05-2008, 08:15 AM | #22 |
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There may be no mention of schools in The Shire, and we may have Sam being taught 'his letters' by Bilbo, but this does not add up to the population being mostly illiterate. On the contrary, there is plenty of evidence that the general population of The Shire could read and write.
Bethberry has already mentioned calendars - if the population was mostly illiterate how would they be able to read calendars? There is also a Message Service which would not exist were most of the people unable to read and write letters. The Shire also has a legal system of sorts, having both Shirriffs and Bounders, and Lawyers dealing with property and inheritance law. Presumably the Mathom House also has those little cards telling visitors what the various exhibits are? There's also economic evidence in that most people seem to have leisure time, suggesting they have gone beyond the limits of feudalism and have entered a more modern age where there is commerce (so Bilbo could go and buy a new weskit instead of having to have a wife who could sew him one) instead of everyone just having to sort themselves out, and they have specialised labour (Sam being a gardener for example, not just a farm labourer). Yes, there are no schools we know of, but that doesn't mean there is no education! There may even be more education
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12-05-2008, 03:21 PM | #23 |
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Bilbo seems to be a high flier by comparison to a somewhat poorly educated and lacklustre Shire, though he had expert pupillage from Gandalf and the Elves to thank largely (and perhaps Dwarves too). The same could be said for Frodo Baggins. Perhaps an indication that if Hobbits were to progress in Middle Earth a lot depended on their willingness to explore new things within the outside world beyond the Shire. The Shire, being valued as less than a shirt of Mithril, was obviously not economically developed in industry beyond the basic pipeweed, food and beer trade!
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12-06-2008, 03:01 AM | #24 | |
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I think the value of the Mithril shirt in comparison to the value of The Shire was more of a reflection of the rarity of Mithril and the outrageous worth of a whole shirt made of the stuff rather than a reflection of The Shire's real value.
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12-06-2008, 10:57 AM | #25 | |
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I did not say other means of trade and industry did not exist (such a thought is embarrassingly narrow-minded and absurd), I meant that the Shire was not economically strong beyond the obvious trades. The trades you mention were all relatively small and unimportant. The Shire was way, way behind the other countries of Middle Earth economically. Mithril may have been rare and valuable, but Gandalf rated it as far more valuable than the Shire and everything in it. I do not think he would have said such a bold statement to dismiss Loth Lorien, Rohan, Gondor, Isengard, Mordor, or even Dale. Bring forth the mail shirt before the Lords of Gondor and Rohan and receive an envious glance of wonder at this antique piece of armoury, but no more. Last edited by Mansun; 12-06-2008 at 11:10 AM. |
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12-06-2008, 11:13 AM | #26 | |
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I'm not sure that you could assign traditional economic value to someplace like Lothlorien. In fact, I don't know of any trade, industry, or currency which the elves of Lothlorien used, and that if you tried to explain trade and the ME equivalent of GDP to Celeborn, he'd be quite uninterested. I would even venture that the only valuable things the elves there had, besides bows (which they didn't trade) and Lembas (ditto), were the articles of yore that they had collected over the years. And those were either kept safe, used personally, or bequeathed as gifts for service. As for Mordor, the value would theoretically be whatever some buyer would want to pay for it. I'm not so sure what kind of monetary value one could assign a place that was hot, choked by ash, ruled by an evil god, populated by slaves and monsters, had fertile land only around Lake Nurnen, and in which all of the buildings were caked with layers of filth.
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12-06-2008, 11:19 AM | #27 | |
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As for Loth Lorien and Mordor, they are simply too incomprehendable to measure their true value and prestige economically. Last edited by Mansun; 12-06-2008 at 01:50 PM. |
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12-06-2008, 11:25 AM | #28 | ||
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12-06-2008, 11:37 AM | #29 |
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Pipeweed and beer trades, and perhaps food, were the chief international trades that the Shire boomed on economically. But again, what of housing, clothing, transport etc? Could Hobbits really adapt to serve the physical and cultural needs of men, be it in Bree or Dale? I would have thought the Dwarf market was more obvious in theory, but the needs of Dwarves for such things were not as apparent, being masters of many a craft themselves. The other factor is, Hobbits mostly worked for themselves and their own needs. I don't think the equivalent of many companies/organisations existed in the Shire.
Last edited by Mansun; 12-06-2008 at 11:45 AM. |
12-06-2008, 11:47 AM | #30 | |
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12-06-2008, 12:00 PM | #31 |
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Michael Delving was a museum that existed in the Shire. In Bree, we come to the Prancing Pony. In Dale we have the Lake Town network. Just a few examples of equivalants to organisations. Not quite up there with Wall Street or Liverpool Street, but companies did exist in Middle Earth.
Last edited by Mansun; 12-06-2008 at 12:06 PM. |
12-06-2008, 01:07 PM | #32 |
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I think the Shire (and Bree?) exported a fair bit of food to the Dwarves, who weren't intertested in, or suited to, farming. No doubt this was traded for metalwork, coinage etc. remember the silver pennies?
I guess the main customers must have been the Blue Mountain dwarves, though dwarves from 'the east' (ie Erebor and the Iron Hills) were passing through Bree, it seems a long way to transport ordinary foodstuffs (salted meat etc probably so as to be non-perishable) when they could get supplies through Esgaroth.
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12-06-2008, 01:15 PM | #33 | |
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12-06-2008, 01:19 PM | #35 | |
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Given the societal and technological level which Tolkien took great pains to detail, there is nothing to support even the notion of an actual company, however. Given, it's a world of magic and the fantastic, but a company would be anachronistic in such a setting.
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12-06-2008, 01:29 PM | #36 |
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12-06-2008, 01:39 PM | #37 | |
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In any event, I got involved in this part of the discussion to add more to the notion that the Shire wasn't worth much and had an insignificant value compared to some other places. I've explained that Lothlorien doesn't have monetary value the way we think it does, and Mordor would only have value in what someone would theoretically be willing to pay for it. The Shire was prosperous and conducted trade with other place, notably Bree and Isengard, therefore, no, it wasn't as valueless as you gave the impression of it being at first. However, organized companies didn't come into being in this earth until after the Renaissance- a time of social and technological advancement which Middle Earth never saw. A post office and a museum are nothing special- ancient societies had those. But something like the Central Eriador Export Company is anachronistic- there are too many things, societal, technological, and governmental preceding such a notion to simply assume it could exist in Middle Earth. I'm sure businesses existed. "Hornblower Longbottom Leaf", or something, could well be a family business, with other hobbits in employ. But an actual company is something different.
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Even as fog continues to lie in the valleys, so does ancient sin cling to the low places, the depression in the world consciousness. Last edited by Andsigil; 12-06-2008 at 01:44 PM. |
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12-06-2008, 01:45 PM | #38 |
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Yes, indeed, small private companies at least. Not up there with Wall Street investment banks, as I mentioned previously, but companies all the same, such as there were in the Shire.
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12-06-2008, 03:58 PM | #39 | ||
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And nations do not have to engage in much international trade to be successful. They can manage pretty well in an isolationist position providing they have the resources, which is something The Shire had in abundance - as shown by Saruman the asset-stripper coming in and selling its resources off. The Shire was likely much, much more economically successful in the late Third Age than either Gondor or Rohan, the former existing in a state of war and the latter being in virtual chaos due to the king being under the influence of outsiders. Nations cannot run effective economies when under poor leadership or in a state of war. Quote:
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12-06-2008, 07:49 PM | #40 |
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Mithril, whilst rare and valuable, would not stir the Lords of Rohan or Gondor into a fight over it - that view is totally unjustified in context with their real challenges in Middle Earth. If it were so, they would be sending men to mine for it like the Dwarves. Economies can only grow with increased market growth nationally and internationally. Where do you think the manufacturing material in China and India ends up? Mostly to companies abroad at a lower price, of course, hence their growing market share and booming economies. And Hobbits do not have the mind set or culture of Men. They would have to prove that they can adapt to the tastes, wants and needs of Men and acquire much more knowledge about them before manufacturing items for them. Most Hobbits avoid men like the plague, unconcerned by their affairs. War may help to stir a recession, and affect leadership in Gondor or Rohan, but why do you assume the same cannot affect the Shire? Saruman virtually destroyed the Shire single-handedly!
Last edited by Mansun; 12-06-2008 at 08:27 PM. |
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