Gandalf The Superhero

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Speaking of Gandalf on Legate’s "power" thread I came to think of a quote I recently read in TT (as I remember it, the movie scene and dialogue were similar to the book's). The episode I'm thinking of is when Gandalf The White first appears and speaks with Aragorn and co in Fangorn.

G says:

Indeed my friends, none of you have any weapon that could hurt me

That's remarkable, isn't it? What would happen if Legolas shot straight at him? Would the arrow have clinked off him as if shot at a steel plate or just passed straight though his body? Gandalf the White is a real superhero, isn't he? I mean, Sauron, the Balrogs, even Morgoth could be hurt and "killed" bodily by physical weapons, but here Gandalf states than not even the famous Andruil, that once helped to finish off Sauron, could hurt him.

Or perhaps only 'evil' weapons could hurt Gandalf the same way as only 'blessed' weapons could hurt the Nazgul?

And could this be because he was reborn? I think I remember reading somewhere that reincarnated Elves may choose to be seen or not and pass straight through physical barriers at their discretion. But could Gandalf really do that you think?

Also, the Maiar are said to be able to shift shape or walk unclad right? Do you think Gandalf could do that ? How about Saruman? Sauron certainly could before his first disembodiment in Numenor.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by skip spence

And could this be because he was reborn? I think I remember reading somewhere that reincarnated Elves may choose to be seen or not and pass straight through physical barriers at their discretion. But could Gandalf really do that you think?

Hmm... I think that could be the answer, indeed. Actually, I would be also curious to see, maybe some people who are more familiar with HoME or the Letters could tell us what else Tolkien wrote about this subject, because I recall vividly some thread on which exactly this was mentioned. Unfortunately, I don't recall which one, but it was about a year ago, if not more. Anyhow, the idea which remained in my mind until then, was that his body indeed gained some different "quality", I believe there was (on the thread) some comparison with the seemingly strange quality of the body of Christ when he was risen from the dead (which as well may have been an inspiration for Tolkien, or, rather I am quite convinced it was). Nevertheless it does not clarify much what all things were special about Gandalf's body.

Also, the Maiar are said to be able to shift shape or walk unclad right? Do you think Gandalf could do that ? How about Saruman? Sauron certainly could before his first disembodiment in Numenor.

Right, but the Wizards are probably forbidden from that, I would say. Things like Manwë's words upon sending the Istari (and other passages, for example from the Silmarillion - Of the Rings of Power etc.) imply that:

Originally Posted by Unfinished Tales, Istari

...[The Istari] must forgo might, and clothe themselves in flesh so as to treat on equality and win the trust of Elves and Men.

The Wizard form was, seemingly, the only one form the Maiar sent into Middle-Earth were allowed to use. I just wonder what it was like with Radagast - he is referred to as

Originally Posted by FotR, Council of Elrond

a worthy Wizard, a master of shapes and changes of hue

and given his familiarity with the animals and beasts, one just cannot chase away the image of Radagast shapeshifting into a bear or a squirrel and chatting (pun intended ) with the various inhabitants of the forest. But, if he could - either just because that would be possible, or because he would dare to trespass the ban of the Valar not to use any other shapes or powers - then why could not Saruman do the same (after his fall)? Of course, it may be so that Radagast did not shapeshift at all. But as I say, the idea is just too persistent.

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Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

...then why could not Saruman do the same (after his fall)? Of course, it may be so that Radagast did not shapeshift at all. But as I say, the idea is just too persistent.

Well, Eomer says:

Originally Posted by TT; The Riders Of Rohan

It is ill dealing with such a foe: he is a wizard both cunning and dwimmer-crafty, having many guises.

Btw, I like your idea of Radagast in the shape of a squirrel gossiping and munching nuts with the other rodents of the forest.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well, it seems kind of natural to me. However, as to Éomer's words, "guises" may be just simply a disguise for an old man who goes to pick some wood to Fangorn, as we know it from the book. (Okay, maybe not exactly pick wood...) So not really any shapeshifting, just maybe some "spell-enhanced" change of clothes and such. Gandalf tells Gimli at Isengard that Saruman may choose to look like Gandalf in Gimli's eyes if it fits his purposes, however I believe this too doesn't refer to actual shapeshifting but to mere seeming, the same as his Voice - after all, he sure wouldn't seem the same to everyone's eyes, and it would be physically impossible to achieve that by shapeshifting.

[Thinlómien]

Please, stop talking about Radagast as a squirrel. It reminds me all too much of the Disney movie The Sword in the Stone where Merlin transforms himself into a squirrel and gets harrassed by a rather insistent female squirrel...


Anyway, this thread did make me think. I can't answer the initial question, nor anything stemmed from it this far, but rather, I'm going to present another point the thread title reminds me of... Gandalf really is a superhero. He doesn't always defeat his foes easily or even win, but he seems to be rathe good in everything. Is there really anything he's bad at? Of course he's a maia and therefore very powerful, but he seems to be a jack-of-all-trades unlike the other maiar we meet, who are most often specialised in something and less good at other things.

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Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Please, stop talking about Radagast as a squirrel. It reminds me all too much of the Disney movie The Sword in the Stone where Merlin transforms himself to a squirrel and gets harrassed by a rather insistent female squirrel...

Hm. That is rather disturbing. Remember it's said that Radagast strayed from his true mission because he fell in love with the birds and beasts.

Is there really anything he's bad at?

Gandalf couldn't boil eggs. No matter how often he tried, they always seemed to get either too runny or too hard.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Gandalf really is a superhero. He doesn't always defeat his foes easily or even win, but he seems to be rathe good in everything. Is there really anything he's bad at? Of course he's a maia and therefore very powerful, but he seems to be a jack-of-all-trades unlike the other maiar we meet, who are most often specialised in something and less good at other things.

Do you mean like a good Melkor (but a Maia)? Only wiser (Or is he? Depends what counts as wise. And you can't measure a Vala's wisdom).

[Groin Redbeard]

I think it was Gandalf who describes himself best, in the manner of a superhero, when he says this: "And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord."

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Anyway, this thread did make me think. I can't answer the initial question, nor anything stemmed from it this far, but rather, I'm going to present another point the thread title reminds me of... Gandalf really is a superhero. He doesn't always defeat his foes easily or even win, but he seems to be rathe good in everything. Is there really anything he's bad at? Of course he's a maia and therefore very powerful, but he seems to be a jack-of-all-trades unlike the other maiar we meet, who are most often specialised in something and less good at other things.

Well, let's see. Obviously, even among the mortals (and we are now talking about Gandalf here, not Olórin, of course), there were better warriors than Gandalf, and probably (so is the impression I get) more knowledgeable men or Elves (in the sense: they would get better results at the university, or such, this is how I would illustrate it), but still, he was a good warrior, he was a knowledgeable and intelligent person... Obviously, he was also quite persuasive (although he didn't misuse it) and he had a good empathy with others. As it was already mentioned, however, I think he was not that self-assured. Already as Olórin, he was afraid of Sauron. But when he wasn't aware of that (when he didn't have time to think about that), like in some rushed or dangerous situations, he didn't have time to consciously think of being afraid, so he could work to the full of his potential. Or so I see it
Otherwise, I don't think that for example Gandalf was well-educated in, let's say, "natural sciencies" (besides being friends with Treebeard - lots of what he knew actually came from his own main strength, which was being friends with lots of people or creatures), and I don't recall him being an efficient "outdoorsman" or such things. And overall, what I said about the knowledge, I don't think Gandalf actually had that much information in his own head, for one of the "Wise". I think he may have just used his... general wisdom, kind of, to find out where to look for things he needed (Scroll of Isildur) or to add two and two, but he needed to learn about the two and two from elsewhere before he could use his wisdom and add them together, if you get my meaning.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Otherwise, I don't think that for example Gandalf was well-educated in, let's say, "natural sciencies" (besides being friends with Treebeard - lots of what he knew actually came from his own main strength, which was being friends with lots of people or creatures), and I don't recall him being an efficient "outdoorsman" or such things. And overall, what I said about the knowledge, I don't think Gandalf actually had that much information in his own head, for one of the "Wise". I think he may have just used his... general wisdom, kind of, to find out where to look for things he needed (Scroll of Isildur) or to add two and two, but he needed to learn about the two and two from elsewhere before he could use his wisdom and add them together, if you get my meaning.

But isn't that the problem with coming to Middle-Eart straight as an old man with the potential to be intelligent?

[Thinlómien]

Eönwë, I misread your sentence and I'm glad I wasn't drinking anything at the moment because I would have spluttered it over the computer screen... even though it even wasn't that funny.

Originally Posted by Legate

and I don't recall him being an efficient "outdoorsman" or such things

Well, I don't think it's ever said anywhere, but one could assume him to be rather good in such things since he travelled a lot (and never got lost)...

Originally Posted by Legate

As it was already mentioned, however, I think he was not that self-assured. Already as Olórin, he was afraid of Sauron.

Now, that is interesting. Of course he was afraid of Sauron, because he had the wits to be. I don't think he was not self-assured, more likely he was just being realistic. He knew he was less powerful than Sauron (if we think about the word "powerful" narrowly here) and that he had just one way of winning, and there ws only the fool's hope for its success...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Well, I don't think it's ever said anywhere, but one could assume him to be rather good in such things since he travelled a lot (and never got lost)...

But honestly the image of Gandalf tracking deers or foraging for food seems strange to me. It is definitely not the typical thing he would do. Most of the time, I can imagine him traveling the used roads whenever possible and usually having his horse and carrying supplies with him. After all, he was not Radagast: he traveled from people to people, and not to desolate places; and helped the nations of Middle-Earth, thus, he spent most of the time in "civilisation".

Now, that is interesting. Of course he was afraid of Sauron, because he had the wits to be. I don't think he was not self-assured, more likely he was just being realistic. He knew he was less powerful than Sauron (if we think about the word "powerful" narrowly here) and that he had just one way of winning, and there ws only the fool's hope for its success...

Hmm, not really sure. At least my feelings from that part of the "Council of Valar" (although of course it's just a feeling and thus not a real proof) were that Gandalf was afraid even though he was up to the task (because the Valar seemed to know, at least Varda, that he IS up to the task - it seemed to me the same as when Elrond or Galadriel were with Frodo: they also seemed to "know", or hope at least, in a quite big part, that Frodo would succeed, while he was afraid a lot). I don't think there was any rational calculation like "Sauron is more powerful than me, I am not going", but rather just "I am afraid I don't have enough strength" - not taking into account at all whether he does or does not really have it. I don't think Gandalf, resp. Olórin was realistic at this moment at all (and later in M-E in some moments also): he was only afraid, just as he says.