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06-18-2008, 08:10 AM | #1 | |
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Who told you that?
I just began a quick re-read of The War of the Jewels and a thought struck me early on. I was reading this passage;
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The obvious answers that jump to mind I have given a little thought to. They spent a lot of their time, before the Elves awoke, learning skills by a sort of trial and error method. The Valar have 'powers' to form the lands, trees and so on, but when it comes to characters like, as above, Osse and some like Aule, they have, as it were, none-supernatural skill... Natural skill, I suppose. Yet these supposedly natural skills come out of nowhere. They are always refined to the sort we know; metal work, shipbuilding and so on. Perhaps they had enough time to go through the evolution of design, as it were, to make smith-craft and ship-craft a reality. But it raises more questions; why did they feel they needed these skills? We know that the Valar and Maiar could exist without physical form, traversing the waters without the need for ships. So why did they start building ships? Did they know the Elves would need them? You could say that Aule was commissioned to make something that could hold Melkor and in the process discovered the method of smithying we know. The other explanation I can think of is that Illuvatar taught them, or showed them these things in the Music. It seems a bit random to me that these skills are taken as matter of fact. Many myths have their gods knowing about complicated farming methods, ship building and smith-craft. Is that what Tolkien is doing here? Alluding to the idea that, behind the smithy and shipwright, there is a power that invented it? Are the Valar and Maiar, therefore, more than the shapers of Ea and are more active partners in it? Am I, as usual, talking absolute nonsense? You decide!
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06-18-2008, 08:37 AM | #2 |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
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I think that in many mythologies/belief systems that the god or gods are the possessors of all knowledge. He/She/It/They have this information from the beginning by definition ('Gods are typically all-knowing.'). All - or when there's a pantheon, some - things that are, were, to be and can be are already known.
The knowledge is then given to the lesser beings. There are Golden Ages when ancestors knew much more, but, being part of the world and not that of the gods, this knowledge is lost. As examples, by the Third Age in Middle Earth, there are none that have the subtlety and understanding to make Silmarils (okay, so the Trees were gone too). The Dwarves surpass their ancestors in few ways, but as a whole, know and can do/make less than Durin I. The elves - those that haven't left - make not much more than lembas and cloaks. The men of Westernesse no longer make towers like Orthanc or knives like Sting. "For it is the doom of men that they forget." - Merlin in Excalibur So, in many mythologies, we're experiencing a knowledge entropy where, if one were to graph it, would be a downward asymptotic curve where we'll always know some things, but nothing like our ancestors or the gods. To me, however, in the real world, it's the exact opposite.
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06-18-2008, 10:14 AM | #3 | ||
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So, like I said, it depends on the abilities/trades you are referring to.
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06-18-2008, 10:42 AM | #4 | |||
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
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My point is that, if we wanted to, we could relearn how to care for horses as you say - maybe even in a better though different way. The exact information may be lost, but the ability isn't. I just think of all of the technological advances that we (well, other people that I'll glom onto) have made. Used to be that we saw stars in the heavens; now we see galaxies smashing into each other in HD. Before, demons caused most ills whereas today we know about germs. Used to be maps contained sea dragons where information was scant; now Google Maps just states that the information isn't available at that resolution.
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06-18-2008, 01:54 PM | #5 | |
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In fact, to me it seems that things did go slightly downward in the technological level in the early middle ages.
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06-18-2008, 02:09 PM | #6 |
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I think that my question is more to do with why Vala and Maiar felt that they may have needed certain skills. Aule is defendable; he was asked to make the lamps of the Valar. We may assume the others intuitively knew that he had a creative skill surpassing their own and this was where he, as it were, invented the craft. From there on we may assume he got interested in it and began 'experimenting' or something until he became a smith.
As for Osse, I find fewer answers. Why ships? They plainly didn't 'need' them to cross the sea. Any craft being devised for pleasure has usually been through a long period where it was simply necessary. Did Osse invent the art of ship building just for the elves, there and then? Had he been thinking about it for a while and then got a light bulb above his head? As for the idea of crafts degrading over time, I suppose it depends on your perspective, really. Needs change over time and so crafts must adapt to them. The more adept a craft is, then the 'higher' it is. If you are talking purely about aesthetic beauty, in this modern age it may be argued that less thought is given to it than of old. But yes, every good myth needs its Golden Age. It's a great plot devise, something to reminisce about and, often, bring some mystery. Numenor is a fine example. More than a Golden Age for men, really. It's a symbol that runs through the psyche of the descendants and those affected by them. Their craft and skill is but one part of their influence, you may say.
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I think that if you want facts, then The Downer Newspaper is probably the place to go. I know! I read it once. THE PHANTOM AND ALIEN: The Legend of the Golden Bus Ticket... |
06-18-2008, 02:45 PM | #7 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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For the most part I agree that in genereal as time progresses we tend to gain tecnical knowedge not lose it. but there are anomolies. The "Greek computer" has been discussed in an earlier thread, and most archeologists now concede that the "Bagdad Battery" really is a form of primitive electrical cell. There Hero's steam ball which had it been utilized (say some historians) could have given the ancient greeks the steam engine and the locomotive. Finally there is the famous "Pillar of Dheli" and iron pillar cast of such high grade metal that it has stood outdoors in a humid climate (India) for almost 2000 years as still show little or no signs of rust. that enogh for now |
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06-18-2008, 03:03 PM | #8 | ||||
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
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Abandon ship! We're about to go off topic!
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Then again, with my tin ear, they'd both most likely sound like fiddles. Quote:
Sorry for being such a wet blanket.
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06-18-2008, 09:46 PM | #9 |
Wight
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To each his maker
The ancients were not all inventors. Neither are the moderns...
Both Melkor and Aule were gifted craftsmen among the Valar. It was said that Aule took delight in teaching his little clay miniatures his crafts (Before being chatised by Illuvator) I wondered whether Melkor cradled his orks in his arms, and sank to them the lullaby of cannibalism and murder... I think there was a passage in "HoME: Morgoth's Ring" about Melkor visiting the Edain and teaching them stuff, before demanding interests. "Loan of Knowledge - 40% interest rate. Lowest rate in all of Arda!" - University of Angband.
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06-18-2008, 11:53 PM | #10 | |
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06-19-2008, 07:58 AM | #11 |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
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To get myself back on thread, I think that the Valar did not experiment as we may think of it. There weren't 27 trees, all essays in the craft of making the Two, where all 25 (27-Two) were just complete failures. In science/experimentation, there are usually more failures and dead ends than successes. Think of Osse experimenting with ships. How many elves did he drown until he got it right? Did some of Varda's stars crash into Arda as she just didn't use enough glue to keep them hanging in the sky?
On the other hand, not much is known about the world before the elves showed up, so maybe many of the flubs were hidden back in the depths of time. And regarding Egyptian contact lenses - anything's possible, but why then do we not have other examples of their knowledge of optics? And sometimes we see the past through our present-day filters, seeing bits of small glass and seeing 'contact lenses,' whereas the Egyptians meant something completely different.
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06-19-2008, 08:59 AM | #12 | |
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06-19-2008, 09:26 AM | #13 | |||
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
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More than you may have ever wanted to know about violins can be found here.
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Not saying that I'm right or know what I'm talking about, but I remain a skeptic and cynic regarding this and most other things.
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07-16-2008, 11:56 AM | #14 |
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What you are all forgetting is that there is never one way to solve a problem. Take ship building, Ulmo could have invent airplanes instead, or submarines. It is not nessecary for the valor to have had these crafts perfactly refined beforehand and ready in a box to hand the elves. Perhaps it was Ulmo's on the spot solution to a problem (the elves needed to cross the water) he could have solved it other ways, but this was how he did it, so for us, who have been shown the/a solution, it seams only natural (of course build boats).
As for trial and error being nessecary, these are valar we are talking about. They have a very great knowlage of Tolkiens world (they built it). they know in detail everything from available resources to physics to just the way things work. even a modern man whith enough expiriance in "the way things work" can take up a new craft and have a relative success the first time. For instance, I have spent most of my life building things with my hands, I recently decided to build a yew longbow and wouldn't you know it, my first try went fine, tillered properly shoots well, no masterpiece, but good enough. Now I didn't invent longbows but it just goes to show, if Ulmo wanted to get elves across the water (Ulmo knew a heck of a lot about water!) and decided he wanted to use ships, I think he probably could have built fiesable boats his first go (he is an increadibly powerful knowlageable and skilled being after all. he probably could have run design simulations in his head before even putting axe to wood).
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