About Tol Eressea

[zxcvbn]

Originally, the Lonely isle was used to transport the Eldar to Aman. Later, it became the dwelling place of the returning Noldor, who were not allowed to return to Aman itself, possibly because of their crimes there. I have two questions on the inhabitants of Tol Eressea:

1) Did their inhabitants also consist of the Moriquendi(Grey Elves and Silvan Elves) who travelled West, or were folk these allowed to Aman?

2) Did the Noldor have a Numenor-type ban on going to Aman, or were they atleast allowed at the various festivals and banquets held by the Valar?

[zxcvbn]

Why's everybody avoiding this thread like the Great Plague? I thought I'd started an interesting topic.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Patience, zxcvbn - your topic takes thinking, and thoughtful posts take time. It's also something that might require some rereading of pertinent passages, and maybe the experts don't have time over the weekend. In other words, you never know what reasons make a thread a slow starter.

Yours wouldn't be the first good thread topic that didn't get response quickly. For encouragement (it's happened to many of us), see the thread A Great Idea that wasn't...

[Ghazi]

Originally Posted by zxcvbn

1) Did their inhabitants also consist of the Moriquendi(Grey Elves and Silvan Elves) who travelled West, or were folk these allowed to Aman?

This is an interesting topic that I have wondered about myself. Unfortunately, I don't know the answer to this question. I would think that they would be allowed to move on to Aman, but I don't have any information to provide that would support my opinion.

Originally Posted by zxcvbn

2) Did the Noldor have a Numenor-type ban on going to Aman, or were they atleast allowed at the various festivals and banquets held by the Valar?

They were banned from entering Aman.

[zxcvbn]

Are my eyes playing tricks on me? A reply to this thread that I had taken to be dead!

Originally Posted by Ghazi

This is an interesting topic that I have wondered about myself. Unfortunately, I don't know the answer to this question. I would think that they would be allowed to move on to Aman, but I don't have any information to provide that would support my opinion.

My thoughts exactly. There seems to be absolutely nothing on this matter in the published works, which is why I started this thread. I thought some of the lore experts on these forums could clear my ignorance.

Originally Posted by Ghazi

They were banned from entering Aman.

So they were not simply banned from residing there? Where does it say?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

It's worth noting that we know two Noldorin Exiles by name who lived in Valinor itself: Finrod and Glorfindel. Of course, having died and gone through Mandos they were considered 'cleansed.'

[Ghazi]

Originally Posted by zxcvbn

So they were not simply banned from residing there? Where does it say?

Somewhere in the books. Sorry, take a number Z.

[zxcvbn]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

It's worth noting that we know two Noldorin Exiles by name who lived in Valinor itself: Finrod and Glorfindel. Of course, having died and gone through Mandos they were considered 'cleansed.'

If dying would earn you a free pass to Aman why didn't the remaining exiles commit suicide, then?

[Mithadan]

Suicide is considered a severe flaw or disease of the Fea or spirit that would require a significantly longer stay in Mandos.

I recall a passage about Tol Eressea that states that from their dwellings there the Elves might even come to Valinor. I will look for it. The implication seems to be that they may visit but may not dwell there.

[Galin]

'And when they came into the West the Gnomes for the most part inhabited the Lonely Isle, that looks both West and East; and that land became very fair, and so remains. But some returned even to Valinor, as all were free to do who willed; and there the Gnomes were admitted again to the love of Manwe and the pardon of the Valar; and the Teleri forgave their ancient grief, and the curse was laid to rest.' Quenta Silmarillion, § 27 The Lost Road

That was the version written before The Lord of the Rings (and according to The War of the Jewels Tolkien made no cursory correction to this section -- though see Christopher Tolkien's commentary on this). However, 'probably' late in 1951 Tolkien wrote a letter to Milton Waldman, explaining:

'We learn that the Exiled Elves were, if not commanded, at least sternly counseled to return into the West, and there be at peace. They were not to dwell permanently in Valinor again, but in the Lonely Isle of Eressea within sight of the Blessed Realm.'

In 1954 in a letter to Naomi Mitchison: 'But the promise made to the Eldar (the High Elves -- not to other varieties, they had long before made their irrevocable choice, preferring Middle-earth to paradise) for their sufferings in the struggle with the prime Dark Lord had still to be fulfilled: that they should always be able to leave Middle-earth, if they wished, and pass over Sea to the True West, by the Straight Road, and so come to Eressea -- but so pass out of time and history, never to return.'

In Author's note 4 on the Commentary to the Athrabeth (itself thought to be dated around 1959 by CJRT): 'The passing 'oversea' to Eressea (an Isle within sight of Aman) was permitted to, and indeed urged upon, all Elves remaining in Middle-earth after the downfall of Morgoth in Angband.' In August 1967, in drafts for a letter to Mr. Rang Tolkien refers to the ban on Aman of the Exiled Noldor, but that the Exiles were allowed to return except a few chief actors in the rebellion (Galadriel), and in a footnote notes that Galadriel wished that Frodo may be granted a sojourn in Eressea, an Isle in sight of Aman.

In 1971 Tolkien writes to Roger Lancelyn Green and seems to use Aman as if including Tol Eressea, and says Frodo or other mortals could only dwell in Aman for a limited time: 'The 'immortals' who were permitted to leave Middle-earth and seek Aman -- the undying lands of Valinor and Eressea, and Island assigned to the Eldar -- set sail in ships specially made and hallowed for this voyage,...'

We know that the Silvan Elves sailed over Sea according to The Lord of the Rings. In a text dating '1969 or later' Amroth says to Nimrodel: 'It is said that the grace that the Valar gave to us to pass over the Sea is granted also now to any of those who made the Great Journey, even if they did not come in ages past to the shores and have not yet beheld the Blessed Land.' Amroth is of Sindarin descent, thus Eldarin. Nimrodel was a Silvan Elf who regretted the incoming of the Elves from the West (West-elves or Eldar) but is still allowed to pass OverSea.

From this much at least, I think that the Sindar and the Silvan Elves could sail to Tol Eressea or lands West. It would seem that the Exiled Noldor were supposed to reside in Eressea, at least 'permanently' anyway (suggesting they might visit lands West), according to the letter to Waldman in 1951 (and also noting that upon death it seems possible to live again in lands West of Eressea). As an interesting comparison to the version of Quenta Silmarillion quoted above, I note the constructed Silmarillion here:

'And when they came into the West the Elves of Beleriand dwelt upon Tol Eressea, the Lonely Isle, that looks both west and east; whence they might come even to Valinor. They were admitted again to the love of Manwe and the pardon of the Valar; and the Teleri forgave their ancient grief, and the curse was laid to rest.'


These citations are not exhaustive however (and are not meant to be) so if anyone has texts or opinions to add, please do!

[zxcvbn]

Thanks, a lot, Galin. That's the kind of reply I was waiting for. I, too, came to the same conclusion(that the Noldor could visit, but not dwell in Valinor) but it was mostly guesswork on my part and I could not find any definitive answer in the texts.

But my first question remains unanswered(a definite answer, anyway). Were the Sindar and Silvan Elves(who were Teleri in origin) allowed to dwell in Aman alongside their Teleri brethren or were they holed up in Tol Eressea with those weird Noldor?

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Galin

That was the version written before The Lord of the Rings (and according to The War of the Jewels Tolkien made no cursory correction to this section -- though see Christopher Tolkien's commentary on this). However, 'probably' late in 1951 Tolkien wrote a letter to Milton Waldman, explaining:

'We learn that the Exiled Elves were, if not commanded, at least sternly counseled to return into the West, and there be at peace. They were not to dwell permanently in Valinor again, but in the Lonely Isle of Eressea within sight of the Blessed Realm.'

That sounds like a particularly nasty and fiendish version of Hell to me. Where's the "peace" if sight of Heaven/perfection/happiness is out there but beyond reach?

[zxcvbn]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

That sounds like a particularly nasty and fiendish version of Hell to me. Where's the "peace" if sight of Heaven/perfection/happiness is out there but beyond reach?

Yeah. The Noldor must have had it even worse than the Numenoreans. They were even closer to Valinor than Numenor was, but they couldn't go there. But they showed a lot more self-control than the Numenoreans did.

Of, course, they were probably allowed to atleast visit Valinor, so that would help ease their longing.

[Ghazi]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

That sounds like a particularly nasty and fiendish version of Hell to me. Where's the "peace" if sight of Heaven/perfection/happiness is out there but beyond reach?

I agree. A ban that is worse than the Ban of the Valar against the Numenoreans sailing west. At least a Numenorean would eventually die. The Exiles have to endure such a ban for as long as their world continues to exist.

[Ghazi]

Originally Posted by Galin

'In 1954 in a letter to Naomi Mitchison: 'But the promise made to the Eldar (the High Elves -- not to other varieties, they had long before made their irrevocable choice, preferring Middle-earth to paradise)

This is what I love about Tolkien's creation. Answers just create more questions and as Tolkien himself has written (I think) it just sheds a dim light on things still further in the distance that need to be explored. So the Avari, and the group of Elves that began the march but turned back soon after seeing the stars blotted out after the assault on Utumno, would have no choice about leaving ME and sailing to Tol Eressea or Aman? This would also seem to include any Elf that had made a choice to stay in ME, even if they chose to go to Aman initially.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by zxcvbn

Of, course, they were probably allowed to atleast visit Valinor, so that would help ease their longing.

I suppose that's the reason why many job contracts include paid holidays, assuming of course that vacations in exotic places, pastoral settings, adventure tours, etc, would in fact provide some recompense for being 'close but no cigar.' Close, I'm told, counts only in horseshoes and grenades.

Originally Posted by Ghazi

This is what I love about Tolkien's creation. Answers just create more questions and as Tolkien himself has written (I think) it just sheds a dim light on things still further in the distance that need to be explored.

I suppose this is Tolkien's view of himself as Sub-creator, sub-creating the conditions of the Original Creator, whose own works provide such stimula to making sense of it.

[Galin]

Generally speaking, Tolkien was not necessarily consistent from letter to letter. And Readers naturally post pieces of letters as significant pieces of 'lore' (if so) but Tolkien in 1965 may not even remember what he wrote in a letter more than ten years earlier, for example. Did JRRT think his letters would someday help Readers answer questions with respect to his mythic history? I doubt that, but we make do, as we must, with 'unpublished' tales, notes, letters, and TV interviews, and author-published works of course.

In the case of The Lord of the Rings we have (in my opinion) a source that easily outweighs a letter, and also a late date for Amroth And Nimrodel that appears to indicate that the East-elves of Galadriel's Realm can sail West just like the Sindar. According to The Lord of the Rings itself...

'... and Anduin flows into the Bay of Belfalas whence the Elves of Lórien set sail.' The Fellowship of the Ring

'It is long since the people of Nimrodel left the woodlands of Lórien, and yet still one may see that not all sailed from Amroth's haven west over water.' The Last Debate

1981 '(...) Many of the Silvan Elves of Lórien flee South. Amroth and Nimrodel are lost.' Appendix B

Or also published by Tolkien...

'In the Langstrand and Dol Amroth there were many traditions of the ancient Elvish dwellings, and of the haven at the mouth of the Morthond from which 'westward ships' had sailed as far back as the fall of Eregion in the Second Age.' The Adventures of Tom Bombadil

Taking these 'as a team' I must include the Silvan Elves with the Sindar as far as sailing Over Sea; and so far I can't think of any good reason to restrict them to Tol Eressea.

[skip spence]

One thing that disturbs me about Valinor and Tol Eressea is the limited space offered for the Eldar coupled with their immmortality. Now, Tol Eressea was presumably not a very large island. In Valinor itself there should be much more room for them but still not nearly as much as in the vast reaches of ME.

So in Aman the remaining Eldar still dwell. Although the elves might not have many, if any, children in ME any longer, it's very possible they still do in Aman where there's no withering or decay. As they don't fall ill, or are expected to fight amongst themselves any longer, it's likely that they proliferate, albeit slowly. Adding to the population: the world-weary refugees on their great ships. And if that wasn't enough, every slain elf ends up with Mandos, and unless their sins were grim indeed, they would be allowed to return to incarnate life eventually.

In conclusion, I'm guessing that Aman is pretty crowded by now.

[Ghazi]

Originally Posted by skip spence

In conclusion, I'm guessing that Aman is pretty crowded by now.

I'm sure Aule could always add some more land mass in a pinch.

[skip spence]

^So the lonely isle isn't lonely no more?

Another possibility is that the late arrivals would have to settle in Aman but outside of the actual Valinor. You know, up north right next to the grinding ice or down south in the old abode of Ungoliant. Hardly paradise...

And can you imagine what it would cost to rent an apartment in downtown Tirion with a sea view?