'Good' uses of technology?

[zxcvbn]

In Tolkien's works industry and technology are typically associated with the evil side(war machines with wheels and gears, steam engines, the new mill in Hobbiton etc., created by Orcs and Evil Men). But there are a few examples of it being used for good purposes. eg. The Clocks used in the Shire, Gandalf's fireworks, the Toys of Dale etc. What other 'good' uses could machinery be put to in Middle-earth?

My suggestions:

1.Astronomical instruments. The Gondorians astudied astronomy. Perhaps they created telescopes, astronomical calculators etc.(in real life, astronomical clocks for studying the position of heavenly bodies date back to ancient Greece, so why not?)

2.Navigation aids for mariners and travelers. Compasses, astrolabes etc.(once again, these have been used since early medieval times, so they wouldn't be too advanced for Middle-earth)

What are your opinions? Can you suggest other examples?

[The Might]

I think that there is nothing to say that technology itself is seen as bad, but forced technologization (hope that is a word) is.
For example a place like the Shire where all the inhabitants live in the middle of nature industrialization brings chaos and damages the fragile balance of society.

Good examples...what about all the smithing works, like mithril and steel gates for Minas Tirith...the Dwarves were really advanced with their knowledge.

In order to build cities like Gondolin or Minas Tirith quite advanced knowledge of masonry was required and although it is never really explained how the cities were built it is easy to think they had cranes and pullies like the Romans.

[Aganzir]

I agree with Might about technology not being bad in itself. Everything has two sides.

Let's consider the two wizards, for example: Gandalf's fireworks and the fire of Orthanc. Unless Gandalf had developed a completely new way to make fireworks, he needed gunpowder. I don't remember ever reading anything for certain about what the fire of Orthanc was, but I have always more or less assumed it's gunpowder. (And how did they get it, anyway? I'd been thinking I'd post a thread about this but it seems I can ask it here.)

But what is considered technology? Surely developing medicine has more positive than negative sides. And who invented the wheel? Very useful, true, but the road from horse carriages to modern cars is not that long.
The more technology develops in Middle-earth, the more it begins resemble our world, and it's a bit sad to think that the glimpse we get of it is only a transient moment. But, on the other hand, it's comforting to see how repulsively the hobbits reacted to their short industrialization.

[zxcvbn]

I should have phrased my question a little differently. I meant 'advanced' technology, like machines using gears and pulleys and other moving parts. I consider things like smithying and masonry as 'basic' stuff, more 'lore' or 'craft'(the term Tolkien uses for them) than technology.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

For Tolkien (who assigns the Hobbits things like watermills, which use pulleys and gears), the dividing line is pretty clearly the use of chemical combustion for motive force: external combustion (steam and by extension electricity) and internal combution (gasoline and diesel). He had no problem with 'natural' power sources: wind, water, gravity and muscle- even if mechanisms were involved. After all, Bilbo had a clock!

So draw the line at Newcomen. (I note that in the last illustration to The Hobbit, Bilbo is dressed in clothes of about 1700).

[The Might]

Then again as mentioned above all great buildings needed such technology.
Simply look at the descriptions of Minas Tirith, the Hornburg or best of all Orthanc. The Gondorians had to have used some advanced technology, probably similar to the Middle Ages way of building cathedrals.

Also look at the palantiri and other works of the Noldor, some that don't even exist in our world.
What I think is also important to keep in mind here is that this kind of advanced technology in M-e is almost always associated with magic.
And it is clear why.
For Men or Dwarves Elvish discoveries might seem works of conjurers rather then scientific discoveries.
Easy to compare it with science in the Middle Ages. Discover something new and you would probably be called a warlock.

Same in M-e. Things such as the Phial of Galadriel or her Mirror surely had certain scientific explanations, I don't know what, but surely there was a way to rationally explain how they worked. But for less educated Silvan Elves or other races they seemed to be magic.

As such most of this truly advanced technology is always present in Tolkien's works, actually quite often... and it is used for good purposes.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by The Might

Then again as mentioned above all great buildings needed such technology.
Simply look at the descriptions of Minas Tirith, the Hornburg or best of all Orthanc. The Gondorians had to have used some advanced technology, probably similar to the Middle Ages way of building cathedrals.

Also look at the palantiri and other works of the Noldor, some that don't even exist in our world.
What I think is also important to keep in mind here is that this kind of advanced technology in M-e is almost always associated with magic.
And it is clear why.
For Men or Dwarves Elvish discoveries might seem works of conjurers rather then scientific discoveries.
Easy to compare it with science in the Middle Ages. Discover something new and you would probably be called a warlock.
.

Yep. Smiths used to be viewed as magicians at one time, having the seemingly magical power to transform mere rocks and earth into metal, into swords and axes. We have Wayland's Smithy, so named after the Norse/Saxon god Wayland who was a Smith - though the actual tomb has supposedly had an associated legend with a magical blacksmith even before this date. Alchemy still has magical connotations even now.

Funny how some of Tolkien's more powerful beings are also associated with metal crafts - Saruman, Sauron, Aule...not to forget Feanor of course. And Eol, amking swords from meteorites. And the whole Dwarven race.

Now as for constructing places like Minas Tirith, advanced technology as we know it wouldn't necessarily be needed - what about constructions from the ancient world such as the Great Pyramids? Stonehenge?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

A question that fits into this thread came up while I was rereading the first chapter of LotR for the CbC discussion: some of the toys, Dwarven-made, that were given away at Bilbo's birthday party were said to be magical. I don't remember reading anything about magical abilities of Dwarves elsewhere - of what nature would Dwarven magic be?

Dwarves would of course also be another example of power in metal crafts, including the connection to Aule.

[The Might]

Ah, good point .

I personally think that the whole "magic" was probably some mechanism that was beyond the understanding of Hobbits or Men.

Say...something like the toy cars with a spring insde that once pulled back go forward with quite some speed.
A Hobbit would probably think it's magical that once you pull the car it then moves forward by itself.

I know that we already have many examples of great smiths, just wanted to add two other important ones - Celebrimbor and the legendary Enerdhil of Gondolin.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

some advanced technology, probably similar to the Middle Ages way of building cathedrals.

Hardly advanced technology at all- just scaffolding and basic hoists.

[The Might]

WCH...it's relative.

[skip spence]

In "The Hobbit" Bilbo actually reads a newpaper when Galdalf arrives. This of course indicates that there were quite advanced printing presses in the Shire, which IMO is remarkable. Someone already mentioned his clock too.

I'm quite certain Tolkien regretted this however and wouldn't have included it had he written the book later when his mythology had evolved.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

I don't remember reading anything about magical abilities of Dwarves elsewhere - of what nature would Dwarven magic be?

What about the dragon-fire-proof shields

Also, I think the building of great places like Orthanc were meant to be mystery, just the way the pyramids were in his time and still are today. If in the context of 4000 years ago, someone could build something 146.6m tall and 231m wide, with an accuracy on each side of 0.1%, then someone in the later periods should be able to do better. I know it didn't actually work like this, and in each stage technology got worse, e.g. Egyptians, Greeks, Romans. Maybe this is where Tolkien got his idea of a faling world from. And these were the equivalent of Atlanteans, which in this sort of theory lapsed onto the Egyptians. So they would definitely have the skill to do things like Orthanc. This was when they came straight form Numenor, so they would be fresh with knowledge. Also, if you think about it, the Egyptians were the first doctors (which says a lot about Gondor, and things, for example, like Athelas). I think Gondor is what it would be like if the Egyptians passed alll their knowledge to the Greeks and Romans, and they improved it, and only then did it start to fail.

Sorry for the messy layout of this postt, but I had too many ideas.

[The Might]

Not sure what it has to do with the topic though, but still good analogy there.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by zxcvbn

1.Astronomical instruments. The Gondorians astudied astronomy. Perhaps they created telescopes, astronomical calculators etc.(in real life, astronomical clocks for studying the position of heavenly bodies date back to ancient Greece, so why not?)

2.Navigation aids for mariners and travelers. Compasses, astrolabes etc.(once again, these have been used since early medieval times, so they wouldn't be too advanced for Middle-earth)

Antikythera?

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

I don't remember reading anything about magical abilities of Dwarves elsewhere - of what nature would Dwarven magic be?

In the Ut, on the Druedain, it says, comparing themto dwarves:

Originally Posted by UT

In some ways they resembled rather the Dwarves: in build and stature and endurance; in their skill in carving stone; in the grim side of their character; and in their strange powers. But the 'magic' skills with which the Dwarves were credited were quite different; and the Dwarves were far grimmer, and also long-lived

so clearly they were associate dwith some magic, probably the whole smithing thing.