Morgoth and Doriath

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

I don't understand why Morgoth didn't just invade the Kingdom of Menegroth. It wasn't like Melian was ultra powerful. Besides, an army of Balrogs and a couple of Orcs and even Glaurung could breached inside Dorith. Melian wouldn't be able to stay the Balrogs. She got lucky with Ungoliant..

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

What do you mean by "she got lucky with Ungoliant" ?

I doubt that Glaurung would be able to pass the gridle of Melian, in fact the only one I am sure could do so is Morgoth. Melian just seem like a very powerful Maia. She mannaged to lift the spell of Morgoth from Hurin and that does not seem like an easy task, I doubt that any other could have done it. (amongst the Noldor and Edain in Beleriand)

I only remember two ever passing the gridle and that was Beren which Melian predicted would do so and then Carcharoth, but I don't think that Carcharot would have been able to do so with out the Silmaril.

Maybe a host of Balrogs could have entered, but I doubt that Morgoth would risk an assault has he would have had very little knowledge about the power of Doriath.

[arcticstorm]

The question that arises though is did Morgoth even need to invade them. Despite everything, i do not think Morgoth was a fool. Look at it like this, Morgoth manipulated Feanor to cause him to raise his hand against Fingolfin and thus get banished. Afterward, Morgoth's lust led him to steal the silmarills knowing full well that it would cause Feanor to leave Valinor and rebel against the Valar. If the teleri were to follow Feanor, it would have sertved his purposes by having more rebel against the valar, but since they did not, his purposes were served even better.

The Noldor's slaughtering of the Teleri drove a wedge between the sons of Feanor and the kingdom of Thingol, thus causing the isolation of Doriath. Morgoth did not need to invade Menengroth to achieve his purposes, all he had to do was keep them out of the fight until his victory over the Noldor was guaranteed. In a war it is always a good strategy to let the neutrals remain neutral until your enemy is dealt with. You do not want to attack someone who is going to sit out anyway unless victory is guaranteed.

It is even better to use someone else to do your dirty work for you, and this is what Melkor did by manipulating Hurin, and then setting off the snowball that would lead to the dwarven attack. He also knew that when the girdle was broke, the sons of Feanor would have no choice but to take the silmarill from them by force. When you can get your enemies to fight eachother, you have no need to use your own manpower.

[Raynor]

In Myths Transformed, HoME X, we learn that Melkor's purpose became utter destruction. To that end, he was impeded by the Noldor (first and foremost), and secondly, by the Girdle. In that sense, he did need to destroy the girdle. I would also have issues with seeing Melkor as intently driving forward the disputes between the elves, or with the dwarves. He sown seeds, and they gave fruits, rather independently, as they did even after his death (as the last paragraph of the Silm. tells us

Originally Posted by Of the voyage of Earendil and the war of wrath, Silmarillion

Yet the lies that Melkor, the mighty and accursed, Morgoth Bauglir, the Power of Terror and of Hate, sowed in the hearts of Elves and Men are a seed that does not die and cannot be destroyed; and ever and anon it sprouts anew, and will bear dark fruit even unto the latest days.

In the Silmarillion, we even know that he was surprised to see the noldor coming to knock on his door; I also doubt he planned or foresaw the fight between the dwarves and Thingol, if that is what you referred to.

[Lindale]

Melkor is a good strategist, but he isn't the best. He did achieve to sow discord amongst the Noldor under the very nose of the Valar, and that for me is either a huge feat or the Valar were just too stupid. And the thing with Hurin and his kin. However I think there are things Melkor overlooked, like Beren and Luthien, and there are stuff that he didn't plan that just worked for him, like the Kinslaying of Feanor and the curse and other discords among the Noldor that followed.

He saw that he didn't need to attack Melian, as Melian did nothing to oppose him other than guard her realm, Melian was no threat to him. I mean, before the time of the Noldor the Elves of Doriath didn't go to open war or march against Angband. And what purpose would Melkor get? He probably foresaw the discord that shall follow the Kinslaying, as a proof that he still had a measure of wisdom. If he attacked Melian and Doriath that would be a good reason for the Doriath Sindar to forge an alliance with the Noldor even just for the sake of having a common great enemy, either if he attacked before or after the Noldor came, because I think that it would take a lot to destroy all the Sindar--he still had only orcs and no dragons till after the Noldor arrived.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

You might be right that Morgoth did not fear Melian and Thingol and that they where no real threat to him, but I am confident that he would eventually seek to destroy Doriath with military force if it had stood long enough.

As I understand it Morgoth did not only wager war against those that where a threat to him, he sought to defeat and enslave the whole world and even thought Doriath could not challenge him it was too great to be ignored.

[Kuruharan]

I think Doriath was probably next on Morgoth's hit list by the time it fell, if for no other reason than he'd run out of other targets.

As for why he didn't do it before, he didn't really have an opportunity. There were several kingdoms in between him and Doriath.

[Macalaure]

I think it's interesting that Morgoth did wage war against Doriath, as we see from the many battles over Dimbar, but still never dared to attack the Girdle.

We know that the Girdle could only be breached by someone of greater power than Melian. This rules dragons out and leaves Sauron and the Balrogs.

Beyond lay the wilderness of Dungortheb, where the sorcery of Sauron and the power of Melian came together, and horror and madness walked.
~ Of Beren and Lúthien

This gives me the impression that Melian's power and Sauron's sorcery is approximately equally strong. So, even though we would consider Sauron to be more powerful overall, it is doubtful to me whether he would have been able to break through the Girdle with his sorcery. It's not overall power which counts, but specific powers. Maybe Sauron would have been able to, maybe not, but I don't think it would be certain. We also know how patient Morgoth is and how calculating with his resources (except Orcs). He wouldn't have risked his most mighty servant in an attack of questionable success. Gothmog and the balrogs are lesser Maiar than Sauron (esp. in sorcery), so an attack of them would be at least as much of a risk.

In the end, Morgoth would probably have had to break the Girdle by himself, but he was extremely reluctant to even leave Angband. I don't think he would have dared to, unless Doriath was the only realm left in all Beleriand. Morgoth basically restricted the power of Doriath to Doriath itself, to the effect that he didn't have to fear it anymore. This way he was able to delay the problem to whenever he felt the time had come to deal with it.


A minor tangent:

Originally Posted by Rune

I only remember two ever passing the gridle and that was Beren which Melian predicted would do so and then Carcharoth, but I don't think that Carcharot would have been able to do so with out the Silmaril.

You're right, but it was not the power of the Silmaril that enabled him.

Nothing hindered him, and the might of Melian upon the borders of the land stayed him not; for fate drove him, and the power of the Silmaril that he bore to his torment.
~Of Beren and Lúthien

It was not the Silmaril that increased Carcharoths power, even though it made him much more frightful than before, but because he carried the Silmaril it became his fate to enter Doriath.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

We know that the Girdle could only be breached by someone of greater power than Melian. This rules dragons out

Hm, is there any specific reason for that?

Originally Posted by Macalaure

You're right, but it was not the power of the Silmaril that enabled him.

It was not the Silmaril that increased Carcharoths power, even though it made him much more frightful than before, but because he carried the Silmaril it became his fate to enter Doriath.

In my opinion, this quote cuts both ways. It can even be interpreted that fate simply "directed" Carcaroth's direction/intention, while it was only the silmaril that increased his power.

[Rikae]

Nothing hindered him, and the might of Melian upon the borders of the land stayed him not; for fate drove him, and the power of the Silmaril that he bore to his torment.
~Of Beren and Lúthien

Well, the use of "and" implies that both fate and the Silmaril were necessary, if I read this correctly...

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I never said that the silmaril increased his powers. . .it increased his furry no doubt.

What I ment was: Iif Carcharoth decided to go for a walk on a sunny afternoon, enjoying the lovely weather and the birds singing and he by chance eneded up at Doriath . . ..then I do not think that he could enter.

There was only one time he could enter and that was when he had the silmaril in his stomache. . . .I belive that the fate quote referes as much to the fate of the silmaril and Beren as it does to Cacharot, or rather that these cannot be seperated.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

What I ment was: Iif Carcharoth decided to go for a walk on a sunny afternoon, enjoying the lovely weather and the birds singing and he by chance eneded up at Doriath . . ..then I do not think that he could enter.

Fair enough, Rune, but what about the opposite situation? If I, for instance, happened to randomly swallow a Silmaril, and (evil as I am), went running randomly in the direction of Doriath looking for water to relieve the burning, but with no particular fate on me that I should enter that realm, would I manage to get through the girdle?

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Well, the use of "and" implies that both fate and the Silmaril were necessary, if I read this correctly...

I don't see how the text implies that the power of the silmaril alone would not have sufficed. Several causes mentioned do not imply that one of them wouldn't be enough on its own.

Originally Posted by Rikae

If I, for instance, happened to randomly swallow a Silmaril, and (evil as I am), went running randomly in the direction of Doriath looking for water to relieve the burning, but with no particular fate on me that I should enter that realm, would I manage to get through the girdle?

Maybe. But Melkor did not put his power upon you, neither are you related to Draugluin, nor does the fire and anguish of hell burn in you .

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Hm, is there any specific reason for that?

Well, to be honest, I couldn't think of any quote from the text which explicitly states that. It's just hard to imagine that a dragon is more powerful than a Maia. At least not one of Melian's dimension.

In my opinion, this quote cuts both ways. It can even be interpreted that fate simply "directed" Carcaroth's direction/intention, while it was only the silmaril that increased his power.

You might be right. I just noticed that, when Beren enters Doriath, Tolkien uses the word "doom" while here he uses "fate".
But this would mean, that by carrying a Silmaril alone a person obtains more power than Melian has. I mean, sure, the Silmarils contain the light of the two trees and were hallowed by Varda, but nevertheless they remain the work of only an Elf.
I think Rikae is right by pointing out the "and".

(edit: cross-posted like crazy)

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Raynor

I don't see how the text implies that the power of the silmaril alone would not have sufficed. Several causes mentioned do not imply that one of them wouldn't be enough on its own.

Then why would JRR feel it necessary to even mention fate, if the Silmaril alone were sufficient?

Originally Posted by Raynor

nor does the fire and anguish of hell burn in you .

Mac might disagree...

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Then why would JRR feel it necessary to even mention fate, if the Silmaril alone were sufficient?

Because it was a factor that occurred too in this particular instance.

Originally Posted by Macalaure

It's just hard to imagine that a dragon is more powerful than a Maia. At least not one of Melian's dimension.

Well, I guess all it's left to imagination alone in this case.

Originally Posted by Macalaure

But this would mean, that by carrying a Silmaril alone a person obtains more power than Melian has.

Well, I would say this would be similar to the one ring: it increases the power according to the measure of the possessor.

Originally Posted by Macalaure

(edit: cross-posted like crazy)

Yeah, it looks like it's BD happy hour now

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Because it was a factor that occurred too in this particular instance.

Fair enough. Do you have an example of a case where there was no fate or doom involved?

[Raynor]

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence ; judging otherwise would be an argument from ignorance. My answer is no.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence ; judging otherwise would be an argument from ignorance. My answer is no.

I believe the burden of proof is on you, as you are the one claiming that something which never appears in the books and which the explicit mention of "fate" in the instances that DO appear implies could not happen, could.
Of course, it is possible. It's also possible that a troop of hobbits with spears could defeat the fleet of Numenor - but I wouldn't bet on it.

[Raynor]

As I stated, my position is that the quote cuts both ways. If you are arguing that only a single interpretation is valid, you need to provide that elusive qualifier.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Raynor

As I stated, my position is that the quote cuts both ways. If you are arguing that only a single interpretation is valid, you need to provide that elusive qualifier.

Certainly not. I would never argue such a thing. I'm merely saying that one interpretation is more probable; but such matters are always, ultimately, ambiguous.
(I would say that's what makes them worth discussing, actually...)

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Rikae

I'm merely saying that one interpretation is more probable

You may be right .

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Raynor

You may be right .

Of course. The question is, which interpretation is more probable?

[Morthoron]

I think Carcharoth's fate was wound inextricably with the Silmaril, yet so was Huan the hound's doom. Carcharoth was bred by Morgoth to be Huan's bane; therefore, the passage referring to Carcaroth's fate has the further inference of meeting Huan at last in mortal combat. Breaking the Girdle of Melian was due to the Silmaril, and Carcharoth's fate was to meet Huan in Doriath.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Fair enough, Rune, but what about the opposite situation? If I, for instance, happened to randomly swallow a Silmaril, and (evil as I am), went running randomly in the direction of Doriath looking for water to relieve the burning, but with no particular fate on me that I should enter that realm, would I manage to get through the girdle?

But you wouldn't. . .there would be no reason for Tolkien to put you in his works.

Anyways unless you are willing to bite of Berens hand and enter a mortal combat with Huan, then no :P

Actually for me the main thing is that the faith of Arda rests in the silmarils and are bound to their faith, which means that when the fell beast Rikae swallows the silmaril she becomes a part of that faith. . . .if she was not already in advance.

[Rikae]

IF you mean the fate of Arda, you may just be on to something there, Rune.
However, does this mean that Morgoth, having the Silmarils, could just stroll into Doriath any time he wanted? There is more to it that a simplistic "get a Silmaril, be more powerful than anybody" dynamic at play, I think. Maybe even a sense of the Silmarils themselves having, in a way, a will of their own, as the one ring does? Or not so much a will, but a destiny?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I would also have issues with seeing Melkor as intently driving forward the disputes between the elves, or with the dwarves.

Oh, I disagree. I think the whole elaborate hounding of Hurin's family was only indirectly about them: Morgoth's purpose was to twist Hurin and reforge him into a weapon against Doriath, one who could bring his malice inside the Girdle. Remember, Melkor strove thoughout to show Thingol in particular in the worst possible light. He bloody well knew where Hurin ultimately would go when he got out, a proud, bitter old man bent on vengeance. Revealing Gondolin's location and destroying Brethil were side benefits. Doriath was the target.

[Raynor]

My point was that Melkor did not and could not have prepared the strife between the elves to the level of detail that was mentioned; he sowed seeds of evil, which later developed rather independently. As far as the strife between elves and dwarves, again, I see no evidence that Morgoth planned this through Hurin. Hurin was an instrument in furthering Morgoth's hatred for Men and Elves; the fact that the Nauglamir that he recovered proved later to be a cause of Doriath's demise was not and could not have been planned by Morgoth. The best that Hurin achieved inside the girdle, in accordance with what Morgoth planned, was to insult the king. But even that failed rather miserably, since the king restrained himself and Melian freed Hurin.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Rikae

IF you mean the fate of Arda, you may just be on to something there, Rune.
However, does this mean that Morgoth, having the Silmarils, could just stroll into Doriath any time he wanted? There is more to it that a simplistic "get a Silmaril, be more powerful than anybody" dynamic at play, I think. Maybe even a sense of the Silmarils themselves having, in a way, a will of their own, as the one ring does? Or not so much a will, but a destiny?

Yes he could, but that has absolutely nothing to do with the Silmarils. . .he was clearly more powerful than Melain and therefor she would have been able to hinter him.

I have never said that that you get more powerful by getting a Silmaril. . .you are making this up.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

Yes he could, but that has absolutely nothing to do with the Silmarils. . .he was clearly more powerful than Melain and therefor she would have been able to hinter him.

Then the question remains - why didn't he?

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

I have never said that that you get more powerful by getting a Silmaril. . .you are making this up.

I never said you said that.
Raynor said:

I don't see how the text implies that the power of the silmaril alone would not have sufficed.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

very simple because Morgoth alone of the valar knew fear! He might have been mighty but Fingolfin alone wounded him, he would not have been able to take Doriath unharmed.

about Rainor's quote: Well, it does not say that the silmaril transfers the power to the holder. . .as I see it Carcharoth was an instrument used for bringing the silmaril to Doriath (and some other stuff). The reason Carcharoth can enter is not that he has become more powerful than Melian, but because the Faith of the Silmaril is greater than her enchantment.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

The best that Hurin achieved inside the girdle, in accordance with what Morgoth planned, was to insult the king. But even that failed rather miserably, since the king restrained himself and Melian freed Hurin.

But that 'version' of events was Christopher's invention; in any event the doubly-cursed Treasure of Nargothrond is what precipitates the strife with the Dwarves.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

But that 'version' of events was Christopher's invention

It wasn't necessarily an invention, since there is a variant of the story where Hurin takes the necklace, casts it before the king and reproaches him.

in any event the doubly-cursed Treasure of Nargothrond is what precipitates the strife with the Dwarves.

I am not aware that Morgoth cursed the Nauglamir. Anyway, I believe you are now arguing along my line of reasoning. A curse is a seed of evil which develops rather independently, and is different from saying that this chain of events was planned by Morgoth.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

very simple because Morgoth alone of the valar knew fear! He might have been mighty but Fingolfin alone wounded him, he would not have been able to take Doriath unharmed.

Yes; it also occurs to me: doesn't Tolkien quite rarely make the outcome of the opposition of two beings depend on raw power? He seems more interested in scenarios where the apparently 'weaker' character wins through stealth, wisdom, luck, courage etc.
Not, of course, that Melian "won", but Doriath was successfully protected until she ceased to do so; and I agree with your post above - Morgoth wouldn't have ignored Doriath simply because it was no threat to him.
I also had the impression Doriath was the target he intended to use Hurin against; though the ultimate course of events would not have been one he foresaw, that doesn't change his intent; and the fact that he would have to use such elaborate methods speaks in favor of Melian being very powerful indeed.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Raynor

As far as the strife between elves and dwarves, again, I see no evidence that Morgoth planned this through Hurin. Hurin was an instrument in furthering Morgoth's hatred for Men and Elves; the fact that the Nauglamir that he recovered proved later to be a cause of Doriath's demise was not and could not have been planned by Morgoth. .

Although the actual means of Doriath's fall were not planned by Morgoth, I think WCH is right in saying that Doriath was Morgoth's main target when he released Hurin.

Originally Posted by The Silmarillion

In all ways Morgoth sought most to cast an evil light on those things that Thingol and Melian had done, for he hated them and feared them.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Although the actual means of Doriath's fall were not planned by Morgoth, I think WCH is right in saying that Doriath was Morgoth's main target when he released Hurin.

I am aware of that, and it doesn't constitute an object of contention . I previously referred to the same paragraph, where I argued that Morgoth's expectations with Hurin was not the destruction of Doriath, but something far less ambitious:

But he lied, for his purpose was that Hurin should still further his hatred for Elves and Men, ere he died.

[Rikae]

But surely, if Doriath was indeed his primary target, his intent wasn't merely to annoy or insult Thingol and Melian, who he "hated and feared". I would argue that his intent was to create an opportunity for the possible destruction of Doriath; he could at least foresee that it would be Hurin's destination, and probably intended that Hurin would in some way betray it or break down its defenses, albeit not in the exact way he did.

The sentence you quoted is general and, by itself, implies he had no specific goal, but the previous lines make it clear that he did, and the last line doesn't deny that.

[Morwen]

But surely, if Doriath was indeed his primary target, his intent wasn't merely to annoy or insult Thingol and Melian, who he "hated and feared". I would argue that his intent was to create an opportunity for the later destruction of Doriath...

I don't know that it can be said that Doriath is his primary target. After all, Hurin was captured alived in the hope that he would provide Morgoth with info on the whereabouts of Gondolin and Hurin shortly after his release unwittingly provides Morgoth with a general idea of its location. I don't see how his entry into Doriath and even his initial insults to its rulers can be part of some "Morgothian" plan for its destruction. Unless Morgoth was somehow using Hurin as vehicle to get Nauglamir to Doriath, knowing that its coming would start a chain of events leading to that Kingdom's destruction. But I don't recall this ever being mentioned.

[Raynor]

We are going in circles. I am not saying that Melkor did not want to destroy Doriath - he wanted to destroy everything (including his minions, according to Myths Transformed) - , but what were his tools in this particular case: a specific plan or planting seeds of evil which develop on their own.

[Rikae]

(in reply to Morwen)
By the fact that Morgoth "sought most" to set Hurin against Thingol and Melian. (Not that he was unhappy to also learn the location of Gondolin!)

I'm not claiming that Morgoth planned events to the last detail; I would assume he expected only that he was sending someone who would make his way into Doriath with evil intent. Actually, though, it would seem more likely that one of the Valar would have enough foresight to know events would occur as they did, than that he would randomly send Hurin out and hope for the best (worst), but something in between seems more likely.